Did It Matter How Jesus Died | Theocast

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Hi, this is Justin. Let me ask you a question. Why is it that Jesus had to die on a cross?

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Why is it that he didn't die via execution in some other way? Why wasn't he stoned? Why is it that he was hung on a cross to be killed?

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If you're not sure how you would answer that question, today's podcast is for you. This is a good follow -up to last week's episode where we thought about theological systems and frameworks that help us to understand and interpret the

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Bible. Today is a practical exercise in thinking about Scripture from a redemptive historical perspective with Christ at the center.

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In the members' podcast, we consider why it is that we tend to interpret the

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Bible in so many other ways besides this way. We hope that this conversation is clarifying for you.

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We hope that it is encouraging for you and that you are edified in the Lord Jesus as you listen. Stay tuned.

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Hey guys, as a quick reminder, if you'd like to join Theocast in helping other people find rest in Christ, a simple way of doing that is simply by leaving us a review on iTunes or your favorite podcast app.

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To learn more about how to support Theocast, simply visit theocast .org. Welcome to Theocast, encouraging weary pilgrims to rest in Christ.

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Conversations about the Christian life from a Reformed perspective. Our hosts today are

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John Moffitt, pastor of Grace Reformed Church in Springhill, Tennessee. John is very jovial already this morning, laughing at me on the screen.

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And then myself, the other host today, Justin Perdue, pastor of Covenant Baptist Church in Asheville, North Carolina.

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John, it's good to be around the microphones with you today, and I'm glad you're in such a good mood, man. We are just very quickly going to jump into everybody's favorite segment, which is the pro -con segment.

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And we always like to interact with the feedback that we get from our listeners here at Theocast. And today, we have a special treat because we will hear directly from one of you about a very important matter of life and theology.

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So, John, with that, I turn it over to you, man. All right, here's our voicemail. Listen very carefully.

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Hey guys, who do you think you are talking about how

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Chipotle is no good? I was literally on my way home. This is the Does Your Job Matter to God episode.

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I was on my way home with Chipotle in the car. You're talking about how disappointing it is. But first of all, you're ordering it all wrong.

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You got to get a bowl and you got to get the tortilla on the side.

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You can make your own burrito that's not going to explode. And then if you're a small dude like me, you got leftovers for later afterwards.

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Also, you just got you guys know how to order. You don't go for the steak. You got to go for the barbacoa or the chicken.

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Were you going to get a better portion than the steak? You know, it's too fatty. Anyway, just really appalled. I'm thinking about throwing off the reformed traditions, um, strictly because of your taste in food.

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Anyways, uh, that's all I got. I hope the Lord changes your heart on this.

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And my name is Chris Collins from Holland. Dude, that was incredible.

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Chris, thank you for that. Send them in. Hey, yes. Keep sending in your reviews, voicemail.

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We love it. It's fantastic. And just really quickly, I don't think I share the strength of disdain for Chipotle that some of my co -hosts share.

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And I completely agree with Chris's take on how to order. You do the bowl with the tortilla on the side and you basically got two meals.

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I agree with chicken or barbacoa versus steak. So Chris, I think that the Lord has done some good work in my heart already, bro.

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As it pertains to Chipotle, we can continue to pray for John and for Jimmy in these regards.

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Well, there you go. I mean, the, the battle, the battle remains. I'm just going to say there has not been another company in the

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United States. Who's been in the news more than Chipotle with food poisoning. We're still here.

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I can't believe I'm still talking about this. There's no way that Chipotle will ever be able to redeem themselves.

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I just don't think it's possible. Yeah. And it's, I'm not saying I eat it all the time, but I do eat it on occasion.

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Yeah. Well, there are definitely, we live in the United States. There are definitely better options in my opinion.

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So there you go. No, I, I don't, I, I swore never to eat there again.

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And this last Sunday I had to go pick up some, it was an emergency. We're taking care of some people in our church.

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It was like, I needed food right here for these kids. So I got a bean and cheese burrito and as I'm eating it,

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I'm going, what a waste. I, yeah, I don't even know what to say to that. I probably have not eaten

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Taco Bell in 15 years. And I mean, for all those who listen to us and work at Taco Bell, we love you.

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We think you're doing such a great service of, you know, doing your job.

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So that's not a criticism of you by any means. That's true. That's absolutely true.

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I love all the Taco Bell employees. I love all the Taco Bell employees. I can make that distinction in my mind. Absolutely. That's right.

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The employees and it, you know, it's, it's not their fault. You know, that no, the franchise has made the decisions that it's made.

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And anyway, many people like Taco Bell, maybe just, just, yeah, that's okay. Yeah. Yeah. So John, why don't we, why don't we pivot a little bit brother to matters, at least mildly more significant than, than Chipotle and Taco Bell and, and give everybody a, maybe a, a setting of the table as far as what we plan to talk about.

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Today. Well, one of the things that we love here at Theocast is a redemptive historic understanding of scripture.

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And often when Justin and Jimmy and I, we get together and we start talking about what shapes and forms

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Theocast and I would say our theological position. And let me just even make that broader.

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What has shaped and formed reformed theology for hundreds of years now. That is often what all of you love.

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You listen to Theocast. I saw it recently in the Facebook group. For those of you don't know, we have a

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Facebook group, a lot of great conversations and questions happen in there. And someone said, you know, we're, we're,

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I'm so new to all of this. Where do I start? Where do I go? And they love what they're hearing, but they want to know the foundation behind it.

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They want to know what, what leads people to rest. What causes this? So one of the things that we want to do today is

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I think practically show you from scripture, how it works. Like instead of talking about it in theory, we're going to walk through the

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Bible and show you how redemptive historic understanding of scripture unfolds and how types and shadows in the purpose of scripture and mystery and the

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New Testament all play together. So we're going to do that through a question. So I'm going to ask a question and then

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Justin and I are going to kind of show you how the Bible answers this question. So here's the question.

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Did Jesus have to die on a cross? Could he have died by hanging, being stoned, um, being torn apart?

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I mean, there are all different ways that the Romans used to kill people back then, burned on the stake, right?

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Why did Jesus or did Jesus, according to the Bible, have to die on a cross?

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And in order to answer that, we're going to use biblical theology slash a redemptive historic understanding of scripture.

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So is that a fair setup, JP? Yeah, it's a good setup. I think just to be redundantly clear.

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I mean, the question in a very simple way is why did Jesus die on a cross and not some other way, and what is the significance of all that, and like you said, we're going to put the tools to work this morning, just doing a flyover through major themes in the

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Old Testament and think about how God has been working from eternity past, essentially, but God has been working throughout all of human history to accomplish the redemption of his people through Jesus, so that we will see very practically today in a way that we trust is going to be edifying and encouraging for us as we talk about it, and also we trust for listeners as they listen to it.

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We're going to see how Christ was the point all along and how God has been purposefully working, even throughout redemptive history prior to Christ's coming, he was purposefully working for Jesus to show up on the scene and do exactly what he did, and all of the providences and the circumstantial realities mean something.

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There's nothing arbitrary in how God went about doing this, and then as we see, hopefully today, just one more facet of the plan of God and redemption and the work of Christ in our place, we're going to then consider what that means for us in the

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Christian life, and then we're going to think about what it means for the church, what it means for preaching, and so hopefully that's the kind of boots on the ground sort of takeaway stuff that will be helpful for people too, so yeah, let's talk about it.

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The question, why did Jesus die on a cross, John? Get us started in thinking through some things from the Old Testament.

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So the Bible, specifically in the Old Testament, Paul uses this reference of what's called a mystery, that the things of Christ were hidden and they were seen in shadows and they were seen in types, but they weren't fully revealed to us until the

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New Testament. And what we're going to do is use that, what Paul is telling us is that there's a mystery behind it.

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So there are events that unfold, and there are instructions given that to the original context and to the original readers had their purposes and meaning.

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But God, through the Holy Spirit, ends up using it to further explain redemption and expose to us the purposes of Jesus Christ.

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One of the things that we miss is the depth and just the, I think the glory of the cross, because we don't understand how the

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Old Testament gives us the depth of our sin, the sovereignty of God, and what does it really mean to be cursed, so the two things we're going to look at this morning that the

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Bible uses constantly to push along the story and to answer this question of why

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Jesus on a cross is a curse and a tree. So we're going to start, of course, in Genesis chapter three, and for the sake of time, we're not going to read all of it, but in Genesis three,

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God says, do not eat of the tree, and if you do eat of the tree, he promises a curse upon them.

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And the curse is this, that you will die, right? So do not eat or else you will die.

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And a curse throughout the Bible, we will see, it signifies separation from God, and it signifies that the blessings and the protection of God is removed.

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So if we go to Genesis chapter three, you will see that in the context there, there's the curse, of course, upon the serpent, but you also are told that the death that's promised to them is, of course, sustained.

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There's a spiritual death, and then there's a physical death. But then he gives two smaller curses, one to the woman and one to Adam.

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One is pain in childbirth, and the other is that of the ground, thorns and thistles will grow up, which is a symbol of the curse, and it will be, we'll have to work for our food, we'll have to labor for it.

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So the pain and suffering that we are in today are to remind us of the curse that we are, the ultimate curse that we are under, not just, you know, the temporal curse, but the ultimate curse.

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So this language of curse and the symbolism of the tree, the tree is what caused the curse, right?

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Not, it's not the tree's fault. Of course, it's the disobedience of Adam and Eve. But these two themes are seen, that's right.

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So these two themes are seen at the very beginning of the story, at the very beginning of creation.

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Yeah, no doubt. I mean, as we progress from the Garden of Eden throughout redemptive history,

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I mean, we see another, I shouldn't say another, we see several other things that would point us in this direction, and obviously we don't have time to survey all of them.

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John, do you want to make any comments about even the Passover, maybe before I reference Deuteronomy? I do.

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So there are a couple of other themes that the New Testament will use in reference, and they're kind of, you will see curse and you will see tree again.

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Like, for instance, you've got the 12 plagues or the, sorry, the 10 plagues in Exodus in Egypt.

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And then the last one, he says, listen, I'm going to come and I'm going to kill the firstborn, which is an interesting reference, firstborn.

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And to Israel, he says, I will do this to you unless you sacrifice a perfect lamb and then take the blood and paint it over the doorpost.

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And if you do that, then I will pass over you, meaning that the curse of death will not fall on your home.

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It will not fall on you because it has fallen on that perfect substitute in your place.

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That's right. So you have curse, you have death, you have the application of it upon the doorpost.

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And this theme is used, I mean, they celebrate Passover. This theme is being used and referenced for the rest of Israel's existence as a nation.

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Sure. Then further going on, I don't know if we want to talk about, before we hit to Deuteronomy, the episode in Numbers, or did you want to wait on that?

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Yeah. I mean, we can, yeah, Numbers 21, I mean, is a great passage. Jesus references this in John chapter three when he speaks to Nehemias, and we'll get to the

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New Testament understandings of these things later. But many may know that the Israelites yet again are grumbling against the

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Lord and God, in judgment upon their sin and their grumbling, sends upon them a curse and he judges them, and so he sends what the writer, what

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Moses calls fiery serpents that are biting the people and people are dying as they're being bitten by these snakes.

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And so the people cry out for deliverance effectively, and so God tells

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Moses to fashion a snake out of bronze and to lift it up on a pole.

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And so when this snake is lifted up and the people look to it, they are saved.

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And we read that in Numbers 21 verses four and following. And yeah, very significant piece there.

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It had its immediate purpose, right? That people would be delivered from that judgment and that curse of those snakes coming and biting them so they're dying, but obviously had more substantial meaning that would be coming.

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We're trying to help people see that this is how Scripture works, and this is how redemptive historical understanding of theology works, that there is immediate fulfillment.

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There's something that happens in its immediate context, but it's pointing to something that's different and greater.

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And I don't think there's a mistake when even Jesus says in John three, as the serpent was raised in the wilderness, so must the

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Son of Man. And Jesus references Himself even later on in Matthew as the one who will be cursed, as the one who will be crucified.

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And so these symbols are being used in the Old Testament for their purposes.

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But what they're doing is they're pointing out this road of helping you understand that when

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Jesus dies on a cross, it's not just some random Jew who got in trouble with the Romans and ended up dying on a cross, that no, the

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Old Testament is showing us that there's this flow in helping us understand that there's a curse because of the tree, and these two symbols are being constantly used because of the promise that's given to Eve that one will come and crush the head of the serpent.

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And you constantly are seeing this language going forward. Yeah, and I know you already alluded to this.

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I just want to make it crystal clear. Even the language of being lifted up is something that Jesus picks up on, not only in John three, but also again in John 12.

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When I am lifted up, I will draw all men to myself, because again, it's the purpose of God that this is what

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Christ would do, and this is how He would die and how He would accomplish redemption. So let's just continue to advance the ball down the field.

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As we come to Deuteronomy chapter 21, there are not insignificant verses there, verses 22 and 23 most pointedly, where Moses tells the people of Israel that if you execute a man for breaking the law, for committing a crime punishable by death, and you execute him, and then you hang him on a tree, you're not to leave him there overnight because anyone who is hanged on a tree is cursed.

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And so there we have again, John, those two big themes, those motifs of curse and a tree, and in particular, being hanged on a tree is representative of being cursed, and so big deal theologically as we're moving forward.

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And then even at the last part of the verse there, it says, do not leave him up there, but take him down before sunset, which is significant.

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Yeah, understand what would happen as the followers of Christ and Joseph Baramathea in particular would remove

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Christ from the cross before sundown. Right. Now I will tell you that Justin and I have not made these conclusions just by being able to read the

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Old Testament and then look forward, what has helped us make these connections is reading the New Testament, and when they point back and say, see here, see here, see here, because Paul tells us that in Ephesians and even in Colossians, that the mystery of Christ was hidden in the

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Old Testament, but is now being revealed.

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And I would even say, even in the New Testament, the New Testament believers struggled with the revelation of Jesus Christ.

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Jesus himself is standing before the disciples and they don't even understand what he's about to do being lifted up on the cross.

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Absolutely not. I mean, it's very clear throughout the earthly ministry of Christ that the disciples understand some things, but there are so many things that they don't yet understand.

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And even after Jesus is crucified and resurrected, the Emmaus Road account in Luke 24 is epic, where he's telling these disciples about the scripture and what was written about him, because they were so confused by what had happened.

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Like, we thought this man was something and now he's dead, and everybody's talking about these events, and Jesus goes, well, what things?

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What are you talking about? And they're like, have you not heard what's happened in recent days and all of this?

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And then Jesus begins to tell them, beginning with Moses and all the prophets, all the things that were written concerning himself.

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Like, was it not written that the Christ would have to suffer and die, and that he would rise and all these things? So yeah, we're taking our cue from Jesus and the apostles.

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I mean, this is a reasonable time to say that, John, because you already brought it up. We are interpreting the Old Testament in light of the new.

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And as has been said by many people before us, the best interpreter of the Old Testament is the

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Holy Spirit speaking to us in the new. And so that is how we do redemptive historical theology, and that's how we appropriately and responsibly interpret all of the

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Bible in light of its main point and in light of what God intends it to reveal.

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That's right. So I think now what we need to do is go through and show in the New Testament where Paul puts the stamp on, this is why

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Jesus is on the cross. So probably very important.

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Both of us are going to fight over who gets this first, and I jumped on it before you did. Galatians chapter three, of course, what is

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Paul dealing with? He's dealing with those who want to go back up underneath the law. And he even says earlier, cursed be everyone who does not keep the whole law.

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So we can all say that every single human being from the beginning of the world, this is

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Romans five, because death has passed to all men because all have sinned.

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Galatians 3 .10 tells us that if you do not keep the whole law, you are under this curse.

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So this language of curse is being used. You are the cursed person. We are all cursed.

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Yeah, he cites Deuteronomy 27 and says, cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law and do them.

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That's right. That's right. Then he gets to verse 13, which is where we took all of that time to explain to you what's going on.

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He says, Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us.

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And then he quotes Deuteronomy, for as it is written, cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree.

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So the reason Jesus had to die by death and be hung on a tree is because he was taking the place that we deserved.

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The curse in the garden that was put on Adam and Eve because of their disobedience of eating of the tree.

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Jesus now is suffering on a tree. Deuteronomy even says that God has instituted this for the people of Israel to say the worst sinners are those who hang on the tree.

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He's saying he is taking our place in shame, in separation under the curse.

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Yeah, he was forsaken by God for us. In one sense, he was forsaken by God so that we never would be.

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So what does he say on the cross as he's hanging there? My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

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Yes, Jesus has become the cursed one. He has become the forsaken one. To speak in even the language of Proverbs, he has become the foolish one in the place of fools such as we.

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We see how Christ is accomplishing everything that God had set up for him to accomplish, and everything that we lost in Adam is now ours in Christ.

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Another verse I'm just going to go ahead and throw in, John, that's also very helpful is 1 Peter 2 24, where Peter, again, to make this explicit connection, says, he himself, speaking of Jesus, bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness.

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By his wounds you have been healed, for you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the shepherd and overseer of your souls.

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So there again, he bore our sins in his body on the tree. So there we get the major themes, not only of the curse and the tree and how

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Jesus became a curse for us because of our sins, not his, but we get that clear language and implication of substitution.

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He took what wasn't his, namely our sin, and bore it and became a curse for us so that we might, to use the language of Paul, become the righteousness of God, to use the language of Peter here, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness.

24:02

It's epic, man. We're excited to announce that we have a new free ebook available at our website called

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And you can do that by going to our website, theocast .org. We hope that you enjoy the rest of the conversation.

24:56

Yeah. So just to quote a couple of other passages where Peter does, I think, make the same conclusion that we do,

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Acts 2 to 223, this Jesus delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

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So God's plan for Christ to be the cursed one, and remember the whole phrase of Jesus saying, my

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God, why have you forsaken me? Being cursed of God is to be separated from him, to be completely away.

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This is what happened in the garden, that Adam and Eve became separated from the presence of God. So God had already, from the determination, we can tell that through the story of the

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Old Testament, God is formulating, he is shaping, he is going to make happen, delivering up this plan that Jesus becomes the cursed one on the tree,

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Acts 5 .30. The God of our father raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging on a tree.

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So this is the language that Peter is using to describe what is going on.

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By God's will, Jesus became the cursed one on the tree. We're just going to keep throwing some more

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Bible in here and then we'll make the transition. So this is Acts 13. This is the apostle

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Paul in Antioch speaking, beginning in verse 27. For those, he's talking about what's happened with respect to Jesus.

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For those who live in Jerusalem and their rulers, because they did not recognize him, Christ, nor understand the utterances of the prophets, which are read every

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Sabbath, fulfilled them by condemning him, and though they found in him no guilt worthy of death, they asked

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Pilate to have him executed. So they ended up having to use Rome in order to accomplish the execution of Christ, and Paul goes on, and when they had carried out all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb, but God raised him from the dead, and he continues to go on to talk about what has been accomplished and how

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Jesus has accomplished for us what could never be accomplished through Moses.

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So he concludes this kind of message with, Let it be known to you, therefore, brothers, that through this man, forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and by him, everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses.

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So again, it's like we have been set free from the curse of the law because Christ became a curse for us because he died on a tree, and then he triumphantly rose from the grave, vindicating everything that he had done, securing our redemption and our resurrection.

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It's so good. I mean, it's like we could do this all day. I mean, even Galatians, like you mentioned

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Galatians 3, but then even in Galatians 4, Paul begins again in verses 4 and 5 of Galatians to talk about how

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Christ was born under the law to redeem those who are under the law.

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Well, what's that about? I mean, it's again, it's the redeeming us from the curse of the law and fulfilling the law in our place.

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It's the clear, the message of scripture that unfolds throughout redemptive history makes

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Christ's role and his work increasingly clear and specific so that by the time he shows up on the scene and accomplishes it and the apostles now have the

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Holy Spirit to interpret it and write it down. It's like man alive, this is what God has been doing from the jump.

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And it's been accomplished now. And what's left to us is to trust and receive it.

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Right. So again, what sounds like a mystery and what's really going on in the

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Old Testament, the Passover had its original purposes and meanings and it was accomplished, the serpent in the wilderness,

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Deuteronomy 21, that was designed to shame Israel, do not do this. If you do, this is what will end up, you know, because in the context, they're dealing with the unrepentant son.

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Yeah, it was a second use of the law reality, you know, like this is a deterrent, you know, from against your corruption and your evil.

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Right. But these were types, these are pictures, right, of being used to illustrate what is coming.

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Because sometimes, Nick, I've used this illustration in the past. If you've ever been to an authentic Mexican restaurant where everything is in Spanish and you can't understand what's there, they are very kind to provide pictures for you.

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So these pictures are like, okay, that's a taquito. Okay. Oh, that's a burrito. And you start to see what you're expecting.

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And then when the food shows up, it's like, that's the actual substance. There's a mystery in the language.

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And then there's a picture next to it that gives it clarity. And then when the food shows up, you're like, oh, now I get it.

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Now I can taste and see that this is no longer confusion. This is what the Old Testament is doing is that there are these events that are happening.

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But these events are designed to broaden and deepen and help us fully understand what does it mean for Christ to be our substitute?

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Another example of this is Isaiah 53 .5, when Isaiah writes, but he was pierced for our transgressions.

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He was crushed for our iniquities. Upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and by his wounds we are healed.

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Jesus then is on his way to Jerusalem in Matthew chapter 20, and he pulls his disciples aside in verse 18.

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He says, see, we are going up to Jerusalem and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the scribes, and they will - by the way, he is describing his trial.

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Jesus is telling him, I'm about to go on trial. And then he says, and we'll condemn him to death and deliver him up over to the

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Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified, and he will be raised on the third day. So Jesus is telling him,

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I am about to be crucified. They would have understood that meant cross, tree, right?

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Of course, they didn't make the connection, and it's not until later that we see that the

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Holy Spirit unfolds these truths to Peter, because Peter's the one who says, cursed on a tree. Yeah, exactly.

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No, it's incredible how viewing scripture, and in particular the Old Testament through these lenses, just it brings it to life.

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Light bulbs start going off everywhere. Connections start being made everywhere, and it's entirely legitimate that we do that.

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And as has been said, and it needs to just continue to be said, this is how the apostles understood the

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Bible, how they understood the Hebrew scriptures as they look back on it through the inspiration of the

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Spirit and wrote these things down for us. And so, yeah, as the Old Testament unfolds,

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Christ, that mystery is being slowly unfolded before our eyes, and there is increasing clarity as you work through Abraham, for example, and we realize that the gospel was preached to Abraham in Genesis 12, and that the promised seed through which all of these promises would be realized is none other than Jesus himself.

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Paul makes that connection in Galatians 3 for us, especially in verse 16. But then as we progress through Moses and the law and the sacrificial system and all of these things, the

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Passover that's already been referenced, that continues to clarify the work of Christ. It had its purpose in its immediate context, but there was an ultimate purpose that was coming, something that was different and greater, and that's

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Christ. I mean, as we get to the covenant made with David, the same thing happens. There would be a king who would represent the people and would accomplish righteousness, would keep the law for them, all of this.

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And then ending even with the prophet Malachi and the things that he says about the forerunner who's going to come and the great and awesome day of the

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Lord, and all these things. It's like, man, by the time you get to the end of the Old Testament, it's like, man, when is this promised one, this promised seed of Eve, when does he come in and who's he going to be?

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And then we get Jesus showing up on the scene 400 years after Malachi, and it's like, here's the one.

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And then John the Baptist is crying out, behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. And it's like, okay, he's here.

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And so, yeah, I mean, this is how we understand here at Theocast. I mean, John and I, and Jimmy too, I mean, we talk about this stuff all the time, and every time we do, we get excited and we get stirred up as we think about the plan of God and the sufficiency of Christ to accomplish our salvation, which

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John, maybe is a nice transition to think about what this means for the Christian life and what this means for our churches, what this means for preaching.

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I trust some of that's maybe become clear already as you've listened to the tone of our voices and as you've heard us speak about what

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Jesus has done in our place. I think that the Old Testament is the, I mean, it seems obvious to say, but the

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Old Testament is the foundation to the new, and it is not only the foundation, but I think it becomes this massive undergirding that when you walk to the

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Old Testament, you realize there's greatness going on, that God is powerful and big, that men clearly are not able to live up to any kind of righteous standard at all, and that God is merciful and kind, but there's just a lot of mystery that's going on.

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And as the story unfolds, it's kind of wild. There's a lot of murder and blood, and there's a lot of cursing and damning, and God is using wicked men and sorcerers to prophesy good and bless, and there's, you know, witches, and it sounds like a

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Lord of the Rings novel at some point. You're just like, this is gnarly. And then you get to the

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New Testament and the keys are kind of handed to you. And in these, I was like, all right, here's what's going on in the

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Old. And this is why we always say that I think to unlock your Bible, you use the

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New Testament as you read it, then you go back and read your Old Testament and you're realizing, oh, this is what's going on.

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The Eve, the seed of Eve, that's Jesus. And Mary is the one, it makes sense now because the seed of man is what's always, it's always the son of the son of the son of, and when the

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Spirit shows up to Mary and says the Spirit will put Jesus, basically the Messiah, in you, that's the seed of Eve.

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This is it, it's coming from Eve through the Holy Spirit. So all of these connections start happening and in my opinion, the application is this, the

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Bible becomes the way in which you learn about this covenant

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God that you're with, how incredible He is. It's not moralism of how can

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I impress and keep God happy? It is, the Bible becomes the way in which you engage with Him is, you're awestruck and your heart is drawn towards love and affection because of this beautiful story of how

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God has redeemed you and it's long and it takes years to unfold and for you to understand.

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Yeah, for sure. I think a number of things come to mind and the first thing that I'll say is this matters certainly for preaching and how,

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I'm a lead pastor of a church, so are you John, we're the primary preachers in our respective churches. This certainly informs how we go about preaching every passage of scripture, but it also, it's inextricably linked to how we understand we are sustained in the

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Christian life and how we are grown and how we're sanctified and transformed.

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It is through beholding the Lord Jesus Christ and being driven more deeply and completely into trust and reliance and faith in Him that we are changed.

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I mean, it's a 2 Corinthians 3 reality, beholding the Lord, we are transformed from one degree of glory to another, but that is done not primarily.

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Of course, we talk about the things that are in scripture written to churches in terms of how we live together.

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We talk about those things and we exhort one another to love and good works, but that is motivated and sustained and made possible only through the proclamation and heralding of Jesus Christ week in and week out in our local congregations.

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I know I take this to heart in mind. I know you do too, brother. To kind of paraphrase

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John Calvin and add some language to what he says about 1 John 5 .13 in his commentary is that it is the duty of any godly preacher, any godly minister to extol as much as possible the mercy, grace, power, and sufficiency of Christ so that we might be satisfied in Him, that we might rest in Him and look for nothing else in terms of our salvation and our redemption, so that's the project.

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Of the Christian life at its most basic primary level is this, and this is what drives, propels, motivates, sustains, strengthens, confirms everything else that happens in the church and in our lives as Christians.

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Amen. Yeah. So I think that what hopefully we're demonstrating is that as you learn the structure of your

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Bible, how the Bible is designed and how it's unfolding, and I would even say how the

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New Testament preachers and teachers used the Old Testament, you know, when we read this verse by Paul to Timothy, that, you know, 1

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Timothy, that all scripture is profitable, you know, he's not talking about the majority of the

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New Testament. Like Paul's writing the New Testament as he's saying that. All scripture is profitable.

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He's talking about the Old Testament. The Old Testament is profitable to us in helping us digest the things of God, that it affects the way in which we love and that we care and that we defend the faith.

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And we often just assume he means New Testament epistles when he said that. I just don't think that's fair.

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No, yeah. You're talking about 2 Timothy 3 and even in 1 Timothy 4 where he tells Timothy to give attention to the public reading of scripture and to the teaching.

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Well, again, I think Paul understands because there's references even in like Peter's letter where he'll refer to Pauline letters as scripture.

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There may be some understanding of that reality in Paul's mind when he's writing Timothy, but he also certainly means the

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Hebrew scriptures. Like you give attention to the reading of these and you give attention to the teaching of these.

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And of course, Paul is thinking you're going to give attention to the reading and teaching of these in alignment with what the

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Holy Spirit is revealing through us, namely that this is what these were about. I mean, this is a minor exhortation, but just a brief plug for preachers and churches and elders out there.

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Man, preach the whole counsel of God. Don't just preach the New Testament. Preach the

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Old Testament as it should be preached and understood and help your people see these things and open up the treasures of God's word for your people and help them make these connections and give them this robust undergirding for their faith in Christ to understand what's been done for them.

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Well, all scripture is Christian scripture, meaning that all of scripture is about Christ, therefore it's applicable for Christians.

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We often think the Old Testament is Hebrew for the Hebrew people, the nation of Israel. That's law, that's

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Old Testament, that's done away with. We are new, and I went to a seminary that promoted this. We are New Testament Christians, so therefore we're going to primarily teach the

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New Testament. If not exclusively. What you're saying is, no, of course. In some cases, if not exclusively.

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Exactly. So what you're doing is the foundation that created the

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New Testament, that prophesied, that set up the need and the purpose and the design of the New Testament. You're completely ripping it out, and I think you're going to end up changing the

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New Testament purposes and meaning because you don't have the types and shadows, you don't have these tree and curse, these languages that really structure the weight of the gospel.

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It's lost. I'm not saying someone is a heretic or they're not going to be able to teach the word of God.

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I just think that you're going to miss a lot that can encourage and build up the believer by ignoring 75 % of your

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Bible. No doubt, John. I completely agree. Before we transition to the members area,

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I do want to do something that we probably end up doing inevitably every few months or so, but it's fine that it comes up again.

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Sometimes a critique is levied against our understanding of Scripture and even our understanding of how to interpret it in this redemptive, historic,

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Christ -centered way. People will say that we are reading things into the text.

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In particular, we will be charged with trying to find Jesus on every page of Scripture, trying to read him into every verse or find him under every rock.

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Just a brief word about that, that is not what we're trying to do.

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We do not read the Bible like it's a Where's Waldo book and Jesus is Waldo. That's not what we're doing.

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It's not what we're saying. What we are saying is that we are trying to understand every passage of Scripture in light of its main point, and we are asking the question when we come to any passage, where does this text stand in relation to that main point?

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More pointedly, because the main point we understand is redemption through Christ, God's plan.

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Where does this passage stand in relation to Jesus? That's what we're asking. We're asking that question, and then we are interpreting

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Scripture with Scripture. That's always a good thing to do. We're understanding the Old Testament in light of the

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Holy Spirit's revelation to us in the New Testament. Our response, in addition to what

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I've already said, is that to not understand the Old Testament that way and to not think about it that way, in light of the fact that we have the

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New Testament and what the apostles wrote and what Jesus said, would be irresponsible and would be an approach almost to stick our heads in the sand, to only think about what could this have meant in its original context only, is not an appropriate biblical reading of a passage when we have the entire canon and when we have this revelation from Christ and the apostles, so that's just a brief, maybe anticipating an objection that could be welling up within the minds of people who are listening, maybe especially if they're newer.

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I would say we're definitely going to unfold that in the New Testament. And just one parting thought,

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I would say the reason why we think that the Bible is Christ -centered, meaning that it's about Jesus, is that it starts with Jesus in the garden, right?

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The Trinity is there, and what happens with Adam and Eve, they are separated from God, and what is the first thing that God does?

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He promises Jesus the seed. And then you have Jesus in the

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New Testament saying, if you want to come back to the Father in the garden, you come through me.

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The whole Bible is about this restoration. I don't know how you would interpret it any other way.

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When Jesus says, if you believe Moses, you would believe me because Moses wrote about me, he talks about everything written about him in the

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Law and the Prophets, and he even says to a Jewish audience again in John 5 that you search the

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Scriptures, thinking that in them you find eternal life, but it is they that bear witness about me.

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So that's where we're getting this from. It's not something that we've made up at all. As I transition us out of this regular podcast into the member session, you mentioned

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Genesis in the garden. In Ephesians chapter 1, we get the flashback to before the world was created, and what do we have going on there?

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We have God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit covenanting together and formulating a plan to save a people.

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And it would be accomplished very clearly through the redemptive work of the Son, and that he would redeem us,

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Ephesians 1, 7, by his blood that would be shed for us. And so we are understanding all of Scripture in light of that flashback, and then it begins in time and space in the garden, and from there, the rest of the

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Bible is the unfolding of redemption and restoration, as you just said, John, all accomplished by the work of the

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Son, planned by the Father and applied by the Holy Spirit. And man, it's great.

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This should be the real meat and potatoes, and to use an old term, the warp and woof of preaching and life in the church is this.

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And so we're going to continue having this conversation about maybe some of the boots -on -the -ground realities. We always get a little bit more punchy in the member's area because it's kind of a safe space for us to do that.

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And so I'm sure we're going to talk about objections to this kind of understanding of Scripture and just things that are sometimes raised and critiques that are thrown.

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We'll deal with some of that and more. John, I'm sure we'll have a bomb to drop because he usually does. He does that often in the member's area.

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Jimmy is the one who's been doing that lately. Well, he did it once. It was nice for somebody other than you to do it.

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Anyway, man, well, we thank you for listening, and we hope that this conversation was encouraging to you and clarifying.

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If you're newer to Theocast and you want to find out more about our ministry and more about the content that we offer, you can make your way over to our website, theocast .org.

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One of the things that you can learn about over there on the website is our total access membership that will give you access to a number of different things, and it's a way for you to partner with us to see this message of rest in Christ and the sufficiency of Jesus spread as far and wide as possible.

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We're grateful that you've taken time to listen with us today. We look forward to talking with you in the regular podcast again next week.