Have We Missed the Point of Church? | Theocast

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Hi, this is John. Today on Theocast, we're going to have a serious conversation about have we missed the point of the church?

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I'll just go ahead and say this in the beginning. Is the church the primary means that God uses to strengthen and build us up in our faith?

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We're going to make the argument that according to the scripture, yes. Stay tuned. If you'd like to help support

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Theocast, you can do that by leaving us a review on iTunes and subscribing on your favorite podcast app.

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You can also follow us on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. Plus, we have a Facebook group if you'd like to join the conversation there.

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Thanks for listening. Welcome to Theocast, encouraging weary pilgrims to rest in Christ.

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Conversations about the Christian life from a reformed and pastoral perspective. Your hosts today are

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Justin Perdue, pastor of Covenant Baptist Church in Asheville, North Carolina. I'm John Moffitt, pastor of Grace Reformed Church in Spring Hill, Tennessee.

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It's good to be here with you today. There are some admittance of listeners who have been listening to us for a year and then realized they lived in the same town as us because they kept skipping the intro.

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So if that was you, you might want to go back and find out that we live in the same town as you. You never know.

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You never know. So Justin, it's good to have you. You were traveling last week, so it's good to have you back in your normal and my normal habitat, my normal environment.

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Yeah, that's right. I recorded on the road last week. It was good. It was good recording. The Theocast Roadshow. That's right.

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If you haven't listened to that, go back and listen to it. Justin, today's probably a subject that you and I are going to have to try our best to keep our blood pressures down.

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It's something that we do for a living, but it's also something we are extremely passionate about not only the history of it, but the function of it.

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So tell us what we're talking about today. And keeping our blood pressure down, meaning that we just care a ton about this.

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And we're passionate about today's conversation on a number of levels, and that'll become clear.

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So the title of the episode, you've already seen it, because I assume even if you skip the intros, you do at least look at what the title is.

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And so the title is, Have We Missed the Point of Church? And our answer to that, speaking from the perspective of evangelicalism in the

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States, is that in many ways, yes, we have missed the point of church. Ronald Berry, the lead. I think if you were to ask the average evangelical, what is the point of church?

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And by that we mean, what is the point of the church as an institution, or even what is the point of church gathered?

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I think you would get a whole host of answers, and the vast majority of those would be not good.

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And so it is our conviction, as confessional Protestants, in our case, as confessional 1689

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London Baptist Confession guys, that the point of the church, the thing that makes the church utterly unique, is the forgiveness of sins and the declaration of righteousness on account of Christ alone.

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And that everything that the church is about, everything the church is, everything that the church does, flows from that thing.

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And there are several implications of that that we're probably going to get to today. But I think in the ears of many people, John, to say that, the only thing that is utterly unique about the church is that forgiveness, absolution, righteousness in Christ, sounds reductionistic and honestly frightening.

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And it's like, really? Is that true? And we're going to contend, yes, in fact, that is true, and that everything that we do in the life of the church is centered on that.

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And I think the reason this conversation matters so much to me, John, is that I know that you've had this experience too.

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I have walked through this in my own life, but I have seen it in so many other people's lives where people have either misunderstood, and this is kind of even touching back on last week's episode on deconstruction, where people have had experiences in the church or experiences with Christianity where it's been about all of these other things that have been confusing, that have been exhausting.

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It ends up in some way being about personal moral transformation, or it ends up being about personal transformation to the end of societal transformation, or maybe in some streams it's just unashamedly about societal transformation, you know, through political and social endeavors.

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And so people have gotten the point of the church confused. It's had all kinds of clutter thrown on top of it.

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I think when we begin to discover this reality, that the church gathered and the church as an institution is about the forgiveness of sins, we understand why we need it, and it stirs our affections for it.

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If you're struggling to answer the question, why do I need the church? I would humbly suggest to you, if you are a

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Christian and you're struggling to answer the question, why do I need the church? You have misunderstood the point of church, because when you understand the point of church as a

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Christian, you will not have to struggle to answer that question because the question answers itself.

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And if you're listening to me talk right now and you're thinking, brother, I don't know what in the world you're talking about, I've never felt that way in my life.

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Keep listening, and we're going to do our best over the next 35 minutes or so to try to persuade you that what we're saying is the case.

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So there we go. John, whatever you want to say, brother, I'm sure it's going to be good, and I'll pick up on it and try not to trample on you.

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No, that's a great introduction. I have so much compassion for people that have experienced abusive church, anemic churches.

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We talked about an anemic gospel, and typically anemic churches produce anemic gospels, and if you've not heard that episode,

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I'd encourage you to listen to it. Anemic gospels produce anemic churches, too. It goes both ways. That's a better way of saying that.

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One of the mission statements I tell our church almost weekly is that our goal is to reach the lost, the confused, and the abused by the church.

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And unfortunately, because of the sinfulness of men, the arrogance of men, we—and this is not surprising, because Paul warns

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Timothy that this is going to happen, there's going to be people with itching ears, and you're going to have false teachers and preachers that come in, and ravenous wolves that come in and hurt the sheep.

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So it's not a shock to Justin and I that there are churches out there, large amount of churches, and large churches that are hurting and confusing

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Christians. So if you're listening to this and you love the message of the gospel, you're loving what you're hearing about resting in Christ, but your experience in Christ's church has nothing positive to it, first of all,

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I am sorry, and I apologize on the behalf of all Christians that we have not served you well in that area.

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So in many ways, Justin and I are asking you to allow us to walk you through Scripture and the history of our faith to show you that your experience is—unfortunately, it's not what was intended.

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God never intended the church to be a place where there was confusion, abuse, and hurt, but He always intended the church to be, as Paul says, a place of unity and peace.

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He literally says in Ephesians chapter 4 that we are to be eager to maintain the bond of peace. When people think about church,

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Justin, they don't use the word peace, but they definitely don't use the word unity. Not their experience has been—I've had people describe church to me, and as they describe it,

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I reinterpret it as the most lonely place on the planet. They're gathered with people, and yet they don't know them because they're superficial plastic people, and you cannot be real because if you're real, you're going to get trampled.

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All you're offered is not Christ. All you're offered is not how to rest in Christ.

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What you're offered is just how to be a better human being in the flesh. Or a better Christian. Yeah, you're offered

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Galatians 3. Oh, yes, faith alone, faith alone, faith alone, but now here's how to do works of the flesh.

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And Paul says, who bewitched you? And a lot of churches—and I know this is a broad statement and a dangerous one, but if you listen to the message, it's grace alone for salvation and flesh alone for sanctification.

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And that's what Paul says, bewitched. So I'm going to lead off my comments—I mean,

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I know I did the introduction, but you know what I mean. I'm going to lead off my comments with this, because I just want to be as clear as I can be about this.

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What is the point of church? Why do I need the church? I'm just going to speak personally as a believer.

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Yeah, I'm a pastor, but I'm a Christian, right? I'm trusting Christ for my righteousness and for forgiveness of sins.

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And so I need the church because the church is precisely where I can find the forgiveness of sins in Jesus' name.

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It is precisely where I can find absolution of guilt in Jesus' name. It's exactly where I can find the declaration of righteousness on account of Christ for me.

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And it's the only place that I can find those things. And so I go to church, I need the church because it is there that I find forgiveness, absolution, and righteousness.

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And it is there that I am given the Lord Jesus Christ in word and sacrament. So corporate worship, right,

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I'm talking in corporate worship terms, I'm talking in ordinary means of grace terms right now on purpose.

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When I come to church on Sunday, what is it that I need? I need the Word of God preached, and in the

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Word of God being rightly preached, I need Jesus preached to me. I need Christ preached over me that he has satisfied for my sins and has accomplished and fulfilled the law for me, and therefore

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I have peace with God. I need that desperately. I need to be reminded of that reality. I need the right administration of the

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Lord's table and baptism, which is all about my union with Christ by faith. I need that.

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But alongside that, what I desperately need is not just a general kind of place

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I go where forgiveness and absolution and righteousness are preached and given to sinners, but I need to go to the place where I can fellowship with other people who have been forgiven on account of Christ.

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Because I need that fellowship with my brothers and sisters, because they too, like me, are pilgrims in this world on our way to our ultimate home, right?

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So again, for me, as I'm processing this, I'm like, why do I need the church?

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It's like, no, I want to turn that on its head and ask you, proverbially you out there that may think you don't need the church, how do you think you're going to live without this as a believer?

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If you don't have a place to go where Christ is given to you, where you are exhorted, receive what

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Christ has done for you, where you're reminded that he's accomplished your salvation and it's over, if you don't have that, and if you don't have a place to go to be with other people who've been united to Christ that you have also been united to, how are you going to make it?

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I think the burden of proof lies there. What's the point of church? In some senses, it's forgiveness and fellowship, and it is the only place in the world where I can find either.

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Justin, let me walk this backwards. We said this earlier, and it's a little punchy, so it'll get the blood flowing.

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Justin, it's safe to say all spiritual growth happens through the

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Word of God. Everyone would agree with that. It's safe to say that it's impossible to grow without the

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Word of God. That would be safe to say. I don't think it's controversial. No, it's not controversial yet.

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That means that the content of the Word of God matters, because we then have to pay attention to how—because the

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Bible says a lot about narrative, mostly describing

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God's redemption of sinners, and then towards the end, we get an explanation of our union.

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You'd already said it. Our union with Christ. And our union with each other in the church. It's going to get there.

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We understand union in marriage. In the Old Testament, the two shall become one flesh.

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We understand that union, where the two are now brought together. This good, healthy,

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Reformed tradition of understanding union in Christ, which those outside of the

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Reformed faith would agree with this, so it's not just a Reformed doctrine, but they have promoted it heavily, meaning that you as an individual are united in spirit with Christ and you receive all benefits of it, meaning that when

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God looks at you, He looks at you with the righteousness of Jesus. He looks with you with the purity of Jesus, meaning that you've been cleansed.

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He looks at you as the Son, adopted, so you aren't Jesus, but you are the adopted one.

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Therefore, He looks at you—literally, Jesus says in John, Lord, help them understand that you love me, you love them as much as you love me.

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So we receive, because we're united, clothed is another way of saying that, we are one.

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Because of that, we receive all of the benefits. That's the description of your experience.

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Then God, in His Word, says, okay, to help you understand and grow in that knowledge, grow in that awareness,

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Paul will say things like, walk by the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. He's talking about living life in the awareness of your union, living life clothed in the righteousness of Jesus.

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Jimmy Buehler Living in a way that is commensurate with your union with Christ is another way to put it. Jon Moffitt Right. So now, if we are true theologians, if we're true

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Bible people, we're Bible thumpers, like, I only believe what the Bible says, and we agree to the statement that all spiritual growth happens through the

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Word of God. The Word of God plainly states that spiritual growth—all right, here comes the controversial one,

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Justin—spiritual growth, I will say primarily and most likely only, happens through a biblical local assembly called the

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Body of Christ or church. Justin Perdue Can I go? Jimmy Buehler You can go. Justin Perdue I'm going to agree with what you said. I'm going to go turn up the temperature, man. So I would say that the primary way we grow spiritually is through the ordinary means of grace administered in the assembly.

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So the ordinary means of grace primarily being the right administration of the Word of God, the preaching of the

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Word, and then the right administration of the sacraments—Lord's Supper, baptism—in the gathered church.

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Alongside those two things, you could add prayer, you could add song to that, the things we do when we assemble.

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That is the primary way we grow spiritually. I would say, if you expand it, life in the church generally, if you expand it to those categories that I alluded to earlier, where you've got ordinary means of grace and you've got the fellowship of the saints—and by that I mean not just the gathered church, but our life in the

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Body of Christ with other believers. By this, we mean hospitality. By this, we mean spending time in groups or whatever.

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By this, we mean just enjoying each other, that life together stuff. I would say that if you combine the assembly and the ordinary means of grace and fellowship of the saints broadly, that is exclusively how we grow in the

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Christian life. That sounds insane to the modern evangelical ear, where we think that we grow alone, and we think that me and God, me and Jesus time—not that everybody loves this song, but there's a reason why

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I Walked Through the Garden Alone was so meaningful to so many people for so long.

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It's a terrible song. Because they were already alone in the church. It's me and Jesus.

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It's me and God. It's this individual thing. It's about me individually, and it's about my intensity, my sincerity, my devotion, my whatever.

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When in reality, no, the Christian life is inherently corporate, and it's inherently church -shaped.

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I'll die on that hill, bro. Yeah, I'll read two quotes real quick to argue that point and then throw it back to you.

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No, you're fine. This one's from Herman Bavink in Reform Dogmatics. He says, God alone is the distributor of grace, and He alone can bind its distribution to the means ordained by Him.

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He's arguing our point that God distributes grace for the sake of growth.

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I mean, this is Galatians 3. We'll get to it in a minute. Then this is our confession. This is the

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Lenten Baptist Confession. Just so you understand, this isn't new to us. This is very old. It says, The grace of faith whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls is the work of the

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Spirit of Christ in their hearts. And is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the Word, by which also, and by administration of baptism in the

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Lord's Supper, prayer, and other means appointed by God, it is increased and strengthened. Did you hear that?

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Increased and strengthened. It's the ordinary preaching of God's Word and the administration of baptism in the

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Lord's table and the congregation of prayer. He doesn't mean individual prayer there. He means a corporate, because all of those are done corporately.

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Our confession, and the Westminster would agree with this, for the last 400 years, we've been arguing that the primary way our faith is strengthened and increased is not on an individual administration by ourselves alone with the

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Word of God, but it's the gathered congregation. I think it's important that the confession here says it's the ordinary way in which

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God uses this. Justin and I had said this beforehand, I'm going to mention this now just as a little bit of a caveat.

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There are extreme circumstances where Christians find themselves isolated, not by their own decisions, but because of circumstance.

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I believe that God gives extraordinary grace and administrates in extraordinary ways in those times, but that's not the normal experience of the

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Christian life. Justin Perdue The way that I always frame that is the Lord gives extraordinary grace in extraordinary circumstances.

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And so that is not the norm though. Again, don't misunderstand us. For that Christian who's been literally imprisoned for being a

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Christian, because of persecution is not able to assemble or whatever, that is not what we're talking about right now.

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The Lord absolutely keeps His people and sustains His people with extraordinary grace in times such as that.

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I mean, it's just how He is and how He operates. But we're talking about the normal, quote unquote, normal life under the sun, the experience.

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Certainly, I mean, if we're talking to primarily American Christians here or Western Christians in nations that are rightly understood to be

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Western democracies, where we can, yeah, might we experience some level of persecution at a societal level, okay, fine.

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But are we able to assemble regularly? Yes, we are. And we're able to assemble freely.

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So we're talking about that kind of situation. So I'll throw one more in there, and this one might cause us to go all kinds of places.

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But Justin, one would feel guilty in modern day times to miss a quiet time because they feel that that's the primary way in which

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God grows and sustains them. But they are not so bothered when they miss a mealtime.

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That's when we gather together. And I find that upside down.

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I find that the priority is in the wrong place. And I don't fault the believer for this because most likely that's how they've been trained by their pastor or the culture.

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We're here to say, I mean, Hebrews literally says, do not forsake the symbol of yourselves as such as you is, or is.

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Such as you is. As is the habit of self. As is the habit of self.

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That's what you're looking for. You get me all worked up and I'll have all kinds of bad English coming out of me. You're all hopped up on Mountain Dew.

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Grammar. I wish I was drinking Mountain Dew right now. It's just water. But my point of it is that some of the arguments, like we use

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Ephesians 4 constantly, but Ephesians 4 16 literally says, when the body functions properly, gathered together, by the way, underneath the administration of the preaching of the elders and teachers in Ephesians 4 11, it says, when the body functions properly, it builds itself up in love.

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So there's a sense where, you know, I'm preaching through the book of James and I think

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James has been highly misinterpreted, misapplied. But my belief through the study of James is that James is arguing for unity and peace within the body.

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And he covers everything that is causing disunity and peace within the body. And he is writing to them about their faith.

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If you believe in Jesus, then the result of that, every single thing he says,

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Justin, has to do with what's distracting the body from unity and peace. Every single one of them.

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Justin Perdue Well, it's just like it's Ephesians 4 30, you know, where the giving the devil a foothold in the church has everything to do with tearing each other to pieces with what we say.

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Yeah. Let me read this one part of James I think is helpful for us. He says this, who is wise and understands

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James 3 13, who is wise and understanding among you, but is good contact. Let him show his works in the meekness of wisdom.

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But if you have bitterness and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast and be false to the truth.

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This is not the wisdom that comes down from above, but is earthly and unspiritual mnemonic for where jealousy and selfish ambition exists.

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There will be disorder and eat and vile practice. And he's making this so clear, but then in verse 17, he says this, but wisdom from above is pure than peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and fruits, sorry, and good fruits, impartial and sincere.

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And a harvest of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

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So everything that James is arguing for here in his book is this is how believers are to find,

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I mean, can we just say selfish ambition? This should not exist. Vile practices and disorder should not exist.

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Let me just go back to chapter one. This is what the very famous verse James says, if anyone lacks wisdom, which he just described what it was, let him ask of God who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given to him.

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Here's what's interesting, Justin, is that when we hear that from James, you know what we think immediately?

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Individually, in my closet, by myself, he is actually writing to the church saying, if the church, if you're lacking these things, you need to come together and ask of God so that you can receive these things.

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We individualize everything. And yet when James is writing, he's like, I'm writing to the 12 churches that are all scattered abroad all over the place.

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And this is what's happening to you. And yet what do we do? We individualize it. Justin Perdue I mean, if you need more scriptural warrant for this kind of church -shaped life that we're contending for,

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John's already brought up the book of James. But there are ample other things. The whole second half of the letter of the Ephesians, we brought that up very clearly.

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I would argue the entire letter of 1 Corinthians is about this. And there are very pointed sections that make this crystal clear.

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You have sections of the book of Hebrews. Not only did you mention Hebrews 10, I mean, Hebrews 10 right there, after he's talked about the sufficiency of the

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Lord Jesus Christ, he then talks about how we together draw near to God with full assurance of faith, holding fast to our confession together.

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That's what we do. And then you have the chapter 13 about how it's good for us to submit to our leaders.

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There's the pastoral epistles are written to congregations through a pastor. And so clearly there's a need for this kind of churchly life and the need for elders and shepherds and teachers and all those things.

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We could go on and on and on. The Christian life is inherently corporate. It's inherently church -shaped.

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I want to circle back briefly to what I was arguing for toward the beginning of today's episode, that the church exists primarily for the forgiveness of sins and the fellowship of the saints.

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And that's what we need and why we need it. I want to read a quote from J. Gresham Machen really quickly. And this is from his famous book called

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Christianity and Liberalism. And just a little bit of a teaser, in the coming weeks, I assume

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John and I are going to try to do an episode on confessional theology, maybe multiple. I think that one thing about Machen's book is that it's almost always read purely through the lens of conservative versus liberal, kind of evangelical versus liberal dichotomy.

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Whereas I think if we read Machen understanding him to be a confessional Protestant, not a pietistic

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Protestant, it's really revelatory. But anyway, here we go. Machen says this about the church and about how what we need is a place for us to go because we're weary pilgrims.

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There must be somewhere groups of redeemed men and women who can gather together humbly in the name of Christ to give thanks to him for his unspeakable gift and to worship the

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Father through him. Such groups alone can satisfy the needs of the soul.

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At the present time, there is one longing of the human heart which is often forgotten. It is the deep, pathetic longing of the

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Christian for fellowship with his brethren. I'm just like, homie, you read my mail. I mean, this man lived 100 years ago.

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I mean, born well over a century older than me. But it's like this man understood, not well over, about a century older than me.

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He understood why we need the church. I need the church because it's the one place where the forgiveness of sins in Christ is offered.

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It's the one place where redeemed people on account of Christ gather in his name to worship the

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Father. It's the one place where we can go to fellowship with these other redeemed people and how desperately we need this.

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Again, why do I need the church? My question is, how do I live without her? Jon Moffitt And so many arguments from Paul were the giftedness of the church.

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God has gifted the church with various means, and this is why it's so valuable that the church identifies these gifts.

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Now, I'm not talking about spiritual gift tests. What I mean is men of God who can accurately teach and shepherd through means of teaching.

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I honestly think that we also need to identify strong women who are strong in the faith and that can love.

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I mean, Paul literally says that they need to love and care and administrate this wisdom to other women in the church.

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So the church is all about strength. It's literally Romans 15.

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Those of you who are strong have an obligation to deal with the failings of the weak. There's this idea that people come in weak with the faith, and the church is there to build you up in your faith.

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This is what we're told, Justin. Go home and here's your reading plan. And the church says, no, come on in and let us take the power of the

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Spirit and transform you. Justin Perdue Can I say this? I don't know that people, even

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Jon, would say something as good as the church exists to build me up in my faith. I think people would say, no, the church exists so that I can be better, so that I can be a better Christian, so that I can be a better citizen, so that I can be a better father, a better husband, a better mother, a better wife, whatever.

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That's why I go to church to get better. And it's like, well, I'll go ahead and say that, yeah, you might come to church to get better in some sense, but what you ultimately are getting better in is learning through life and trial and suffering and pain and every other thing.

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Under the Word of Christ and under the sacraments, you are learning to trust Jesus through all of that.

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If that's what you mean by better, then okay. Sanctification is the process of a greater and greater awareness and faith and dependence on Christ.

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In spite of circumstance. That's the whole steadfastness piece, even of James 1.

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I know you're preaching it right now, but good gracious. God produces steadfastness through pain.

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Let me just say this, Jon. I want to introduce this paradigm. It's not accidental that we use the language of pilgrims for theocast, encouraging weary pilgrims to rest in Christ.

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That language of pilgrim is not unique to us, certainly. The Reformed have been using it for hundreds of years.

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Obviously, there's pilgrim's progress, but then I'm even thinking about Michael Horton's systematic theology.

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He's got pilgrims all over that thing. Why is that? Well, confessional

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Protestants, Reformed Protestants understand that the metaphor of a pilgrim, a sojourner, an exile is the right one to use.

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Not only is it a biblical image, but it communicates that we're going to be weary, that we're going to struggle, and that we have not yet reached our homeland.

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We are in the midst of there's an already, but not yet. We've been promised a land. We've been promised a home.

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We've been promised that we're going to have immediate fellowship with God forever, but that is not yet our experience.

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We've been promised that we're going to be delivered from sin completely, like where we won't even have a sinful flesh anymore, but that's not true yet.

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And so we're pilgrims right now. The problem, I think, in so many streams of the church is that we're not thought of as pilgrims, weary pilgrims in need of rest, in need of forgiveness, in need of reminders of righteousness that Christ has accomplished, in need of fellowship, but instead we are supposed to be activists or warriors or conquerors or whatever it is where we're just so spiritually strong that we just go out and slay everything.

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And it's like, well, okay, I understand that Jesus, by His Spirit, has conquered the devil and is building

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His church. Amen. And I mean, we're able in the power of God to do all kinds of things, but we ought not get that twisted.

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We are still weak and we are still feeble and frail and need these reminders weekly in the corporate assembly, and we need the fellowship of our brethren, of our sisters, because doing this alone is an impossibility.

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That's right. And yeah, anyway. Well, here's the thing. We as Reformed believe and can argue from Scripture that sanctification is a monergistic, mono meaning one, is a monergistic...

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Ergo meaning to work. That's right. Synergistic meaning to working together. So we do not believe that we work alongside

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God to sanctify ourselves. We do believe that we work out our sanctification, meaning that as God works in us to do

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His good pleasure. Doesn't that sound like Philippians 2? But this goes back to Galatians 3.

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It sounds like Philippians 3. I strive to take hold of the resurrection because Christ has taken hold of me.

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That's right. He says, who bewitched you? Have you begun by the Spirit? Are you now being perfected by the flesh?

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So God says that it's by His Spirit that He transforms you. But how do you keep your faith in the right place?

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I mean, this even goes back to James 1, where he says, if you lack wisdom, he goes, ask, and it will be given to you generously to all without reproach.

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And the point of it is that the... By the way, wisdom there, he doesn't mean intellectual knowledge.

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He literally means if you go... I think he's talking about the fruits of the Spirit. Go read chapter 3, verses 13 and following.

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It's about gentleness and meekness and patience. The point of it is that all of this comes to us by means of the

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Spirit, and the Spirit has a mechanism that He uses. Let me redo this quote by...

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I mean, anytime you read Calvin, it's almost like a mic drop, right? Not that he's perfect, but he helps us. It says this.

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This is from his Institutes. But as our faith is slight and feeble, unless it is propped up on all sides and sustained by every means, it trembles, wavers, totters, and last gives away.

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How here our merciful Lord, according to His infinite kindness, so tempers

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Himself to our capacity that, since we are creatures who always creep on the ground, cleave to the flesh, and do not think about or even conceive of anything spiritual,

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He condescends to lead us to Himself, even by these earthly elements, and so before us, in the flesh, a mirror of spiritual blessings.

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He's talking about the ordinary means of grace here. Can I, while you're doing this, I'm just going to go ahead. This is from Calvin's Liturgy for the

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Lord's Supper in the church in Geneva. This is just a brief excerpt. Let us understand, therefore, that this sacrament is a medicine for poor, spiritually sick people.

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And since we see only bread and wine, yet we do not doubt that He accomplishes spiritually in our souls all that He demonstrates to us outwardly through these visible signs, namely that He is the heavenly bread that feeds and nourishes us for eternal life.

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Another quote from Calvin on the Lord's Supper. Again, ordinary means of grace. To demand perfection in order to receive the table betrays appalling ignorance, not to say stupidity, for it would make it useless and superfluous.

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It was not instituted for the perfect, but for the weak and feeble, so as to awaken, prompt, rouse, and exercise whatever their faith and love might lack, close quote.

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It's like people have understood this before. I mean, John and I are not the first Christians to say this stuff, that actually corporate worship is for the weak, and it's for those who are weary and needy and know themselves to be, who show up needy but who show up expectant, that God is going to meet us in our need, and that Christ will minister to us.

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This is why I know we both, John, agree about this, and I know we make a big deal out of this at CBC.

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Corporate worship is not a human activity. It's not about entertainment. It's not about motivation. It is not something that we offer

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God that He needs. Nope. It has everything to do with us casting ourselves upon God in Christ completely.

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We come in need to receive from the Lord what only He can do and give to us, and so that is a better historical,

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Reformed, Biblical perspective on corporate worship and why the church exists and why we so desperately need the church, because it's the only here that we can receive these things and where we can fellowship with each other and have that unity and camaraderie in the

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Lord Jesus Christ to keep putting one foot in front of the other in this pilgrimage that we're on.

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So, Justin, to add to that, I believe with full conviction in Ephesians 4 that Paul makes the promise that the

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Spirit will come and do something that is supernatural, that cannot be reproduced by humans anywhere else.

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He says when the church gathers together around the gospel and is administrating the grace of God appropriately, that the

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Spirit comes and He unifies them and He builds them up. He strengthens them. It's the promise of the

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Spirit, because literally in verse 11 it says, the Spirit comes and does these things. So nowhere else in Scripture does it say the

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Spirit will come and do this for you outside of these means.

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You were talking about how there are many people who feel tossed about, like theologically confused, they feel dry and distant, and they've not been in a good church.

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Two times Hebrews 13 says, do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings, for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace.

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Later in Ephesians, go back to chapter 4 verse 14, he says this, so that we may no longer be children tossed to and fro by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness and deceitful schemes, meaning that you can be.

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He says no longer, meaning that you were. There are so many people who believe the craziest doctrines.

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They've been tossed about by all kinds of human cunningness. People get really upset and angry at the different movements that are out there.

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I'm thinking about the Pentecostal movement, where there's all these false healings that happen, and they get so angry at them.

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I say, listen, a lot of those are our brothers and sisters in Christ who have been tossed about, and you need to be patient with them as God has been patient with us.

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What they need is this verse 15, rather speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into Him who is the head and to Christ.

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His response, Justin, to not being tested or not being tossed about by craftiness and deceitful schemes is for the church to be administrating the grace of God through love.

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This is going back to Hebrews when he says, for your heart will be strengthened by grace, but it's not grace in yourself.

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It's grace being administrated to you outside of yourself. This is why we are saying the ordinary means of grace, the public preaching and teaching of God's Word, the gathered church around fellowship, this is what he just argued in Ephesians 4.

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The administration of the sacraments, Word and prayer, the table and baptism, that's how

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God protects His congregations and builds them up. Justin Perdue Well, in terms of the sacraments in union with Christ, read 1

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Corinthians 10, look at Romans 6, I mean, amongst other places, Colossians 2, and the things that those things signify.

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In terms of the preaching of the Word, there are a number of places, Romans 10, 2 Timothy 4, all of these things where God promises to use

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His Word uniquely and especially the Word of Christ to build up and sustain His church. Ephesians 4, like you said, the way that you combat being blown around by doctrine and by deceitful schemes and everything else, strange doctrine, is for the body to function as it should, which includes its pastors and teachers, and then for it to work every member of the body doing its part, building itself up in love unto maturity in Christ Jesus.

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I mean, that's it. The church is God's plan. Sometimes people hear us talk about our need of the church, and it's almost like we're slapping the

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Holy Spirit in the face or something, as though He's not enough. It's like, no, we're not, because the same Holy Spirit who inspired the

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Scriptures is the one who tells us we need the church, and is the one who tells us that He works and ministers particularly in and through the church.

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We are just in lockstep with the Holy Spirit when we talk about a church -shaped life in the way that we've been describing it.

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And yeah, I am so burdened for my own people at Covenant Baptist Church.

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I am very burdened for the listeners of Theocast and for professing Christians in America to have this understanding of church, and this understanding of the corporate gathering, and this understanding of the fellowship of the saints, and to see that these things are not a burden, they're not a to -do list, they're not something

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I need to accomplish, but these are literally a lifeline from the Lord in terms of how

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He plans to sustain and keep us as sojourners and exiles in this life, and to bring us ultimately to the celestial city where we'll be with Him forever.

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I want my perspective. I pray that the Lord would give me and you and others grace that we might continue to grow in our understanding of these things, because it makes the church and the

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Christian life really sweet. It also makes it something that you cling to and you love.

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I need this and I need these people. I'm so excited and eager to go to corporate worship today because I know what we're going to do.

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I know that this isn't about entertainment. It's not about motivation. It's not even about moral transformation. This is about the forgiveness of sins because of Christ.

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This is about righteousness being given to a wretch like me because of Christ. We together are going to celebrate that today.

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Jon Moffitt Well, the church can actually accomplish something, Justin, if the church does what it's called to do.

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The church is distracted by all kinds of missions that are out there, but when a church is called to do what it's supposed to do, it can change someone's entire world and the experience they have in a world where they go from spare, they go to no dignity, no hope, no future, and they're trying everything.

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They're trying sex, relationships, money, fame. They've tried everything to find significance. They walk into a church and they get attached to a body full of life, full of grace, who is focused on what matters.

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They go from a perspective that is completely them trying to figure out how to appease whatever it is that they're trying to appease, that they can rest in Christ.

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Now there's so much energy that's being generated that they're trying to figure out how to get more people into this place where they are feasting every single week on the grace of God and the glory of Christ.

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The mission of the church becomes, let's gather and let's care for each other while we await our final resurrection.

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We are not trying to live a resurrected life now. We live in the already not yet. Well, I'll save this for future episodes, but when it comes to the transformation of the society in which we live, that has never been the mission of the church.

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God has never commissioned the church to do that. I will say, piggybacking on what you just said, that when the church functions as it should and we actually keep an appropriate distinction between the things that are inherently supernatural and religious and things that actually aren't, if we distinguish appropriately between the redemptive kingdom and the common kingdom, like we've talked about in recent weeks, then what that does is we actually find real hope, real rest, real peace in the church.

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Then we can live life as citizens pursuing justice for our neighbor and seeking to do good to our neighbor in a way that actually will end up being good for society, though the mission of the church is not to change society.

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Anyway, I don't need to keep going there. The most helpful thing you can do for a thief is to give him reasons not to steal anymore, which is in Christ.

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Anyway, the church exists for peace and rest. The church exists for forgiveness and fellowship.

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Ultimately, life is found in the church in a way that it is not found anywhere else because Christ is in the church.

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We'll leave it there. So one of the things that Justin and I are very, as you can see, passionate about is the local assembly and doing church the way it was intended to be scripturally, where we gather to receive of Christ, to build one another up, to evangelize, not only to give each other the gospel, but to give their communities the gospel.

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We're going to talk about this in a separate word from Monda about how our podcast, which is always designed for the edification of the body of Christ, hopefully you'll hear this and you go and encourage your church.

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But if you're in an area that doesn't have a good church or you want to be a part of this, how do we help more churches get started?

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How do we help more churches find this true rest in Christ? We're going to continue this conversation over in another podcast that we record every week called

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Simple Reformanda. For those of you that don't know Latin, it means always reforming, and this is what we're hoping for is that we continue to help people find rest in Christ.

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We continue this reformation forward, and you can learn more about this podcast. This podcast is designed for those who have partnered with us in our ministry, and there's an app where this conversation happens throughout the week.

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On the app, different conversations, different questions that go in there, and we are working to continue to build our local and online groups as well.

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You can go to theocast .org to learn more about that. Justin, we'll see you here in Simple Reformanda, and for those of you listening, we'll see you next week.