The Laborers' Podcast- The Holy Spirit part 1

Good evening and welcome to the laborers podcast. We're so thankful. You could join us tonight. We're going to talk about the

Holy Spirit we hope you will stick around and Join us Welcome again to the laborers podcast.

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We have a new laborer a new member of the the truth and love network Keith with conversations with a

Calvinist podcast Please check him out and and look at his content. I know that you will be encouraged and helped by his content content

How you doing Keith? Thank you for having me. I appreciate it Robin everybody.

Nice to nice to be on the show Absolutely handy. How are you doing? Oh just fine, sir

I'm looking forward to this one because I think I have some good life experience to bring to it By his grace dot us check

Andy and his ministry out and now we got Tyler bread of the word podcast How you doing

Tyler? Doing all right. Happy to be here Good so now we're gonna talk about the Holy Spirit if you'll know if you've been watching and noticed

We got a few guys missing and that's how it is. That's how life is We can't always be here.

Some things come up I was supposed to be at the conference that Claude is at tonight, but life happened in my family

And I was unable to attend but Claude is there and I did not Catch up with him at the right time where we could have an official.

This is the conference This is what's going on. Here's some booze to look at we

I caught him as they were beginning to Start the conference and sing some hymns

This is a video that we recorded just a few minutes ago And so it's kind of boring but it's it's because they've already started the podcast and he wanted us to give he wanted to give us a taste of The the singing and the beginning of the conference and just say hello and let us know that he's

Thinking about us while he's there at the conference. So here's here's that short little clip from Claude We're just singing from the screen right now

Oh Hey, man That's our check -in Rob, I'm gonna jump off here and sing.

Okay. All right Becky's Dan's wife.

She's a faithful Watcher and listener. I can just see some

I got a cough cough. So I Love that So that Claude's a fellow labor and we're we're praying for him and he's it has he's at the conference

Representing the here. I stand theology podcast and the truth and love network. So let's jump into the conversation tonight so the people that are watching can

Jump in with their questions if they have any tonight and we'll try to address those definitely So this is for everybody and this is the additional question that I wanted to start off with tonight

Why is it important as we talk about the Holy Spirit and here's here's the big word

Pneumatology the doctrine of the Holy Spirit Why is it important to get?

The doctrine of the Holy Spirit correct or biblical. Why do we want to spend time? Studying the the doctrine of the

Holy Spirit. What are the dangers if we get it wrong?

Go ahead Tyler if I could take just a few minutes to Refer to Deuteronomy of all books

Deuteronomy is the end of the the first five books that we call the law that the Torah This is one of the last this is the last book that Moses writes before he dies

This is his basically is his commencement address to the next generation of Israelites.

This is drawing back to memory What God has said what is good? What his people are to do and to be in a chapter 4

He goes as far as to say you who hold fast to the Lord your God are alive every one of you this day and we we get a lot of texts like that in Deuteronomy of if you do this you will live if you

Abide you will live that that die and then we get to chapter 2031

And it says for I know your rebellion and your stiff neck if today while I am alive with you

You have been rebellious against the Lord. How much more after my death? verse 29 for I know that after my death you will become utterly corrupt and Turn aside from the way which

I have commanded you and evil will befall you in the latter days Because you will do evil in the sight of the

Lord to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands Just a chapter earlier.

He says you were not given listening ears And so it's it almost seems kind of kind of mean that God will give all this this this law and then say by the way

You're not gonna be able to keep it Because there's something missing here the whole

Subject of Deuteronomy is the law is what God has said what God requires man And then at the end there's a little footnote that you do not have it in your own strength to do this

You do not have it within you To keep this to be holy as I am holy and So why is the

Holy Spirit so important to get right? Because this is the only way we can do this

This is the only way that this is attainable C is Lewis in his book mere

Christianity. He talks about prayer and he says that prayer is a threefold thing

And specifically in God's activity in our prayer that God is the thing to which we are praying he is the

Thing inclining us to pray and he is the means by which we are able to pray so when we pray says

Lewis says Lewis we are basically encapsulated in God and When we talk about the

Holy Spirit and the work of the Holy Spirit, this is what we're trying to Come to the realization of that we are encapsulated by the work of God and That when we are abiding in God ultimately

God is enabling us to do what is not natural to us What is not in our ability to do so so getting him, right?

In essence we Like what you're saying?

We've got to to be able to please God to be able to know God We've got to to have the

Holy Spirit and to and the Holy Spirit I'm getting him, right Means that The difference between having a relationship with God and not having a relationship with God right that's what you're saying

Yeah, absolutely. Sorry for the long pause there. I was just trying to get something

Get something out there What do you what else you guys think? Why is it important to get the person of the

Holy Spirit correct and biblical what are the implications of not Understanding him correctly in application

You'll go ahead Keith. Yeah, I can go well, I think the first thing that I would say to answer that question is is we are

We are all very Convinced That we need to have a right

Christology In fact, we are so convinced that we need to have a right

Christology when we come across a group That has a wrong Christology like the

Jehovah Witnesses the Mormons or oneness groups or anything like that We would say that those groups are not only wrong, we would say they're outside of the bounds of orthodoxy and therefore are are not even

Christian and So if the Holy well, I shouldn't say if since the

Holy Spirit is a third person the Trinity co -equal and co -eternal with God the Father and God the Son it would then make sense that we would have as much of Attention to getting him right as as it is that we would get

Christ, right? The first 300 years of church history were were battles over who the the person in work of Christ Was and therefore for us to to delineate the spirit to any lesser position

I think would be would be incorrect. So certainly we have the onus is upon us to to To ensure that we're getting that correctly and we see the byproduct of what happens when people get the

Holy Spirit wrong We end up with charismania. We end up with all kinds of other Problems that are that are the the byproduct of a wrong understanding of the

Holy Spirit Well, and it makes sense that people spent so much time and we spent so much time wanting to understand

Christ getting Christ right and Knowing him correctly because that's the one of the roles of the

Holy Spirit and I'm sure we'll get to that later So it makes sense that we would want to get Christ's right and it you know, it also makes sense

In the fact, you know from Scripture We And I lost the verse

But I'll think of it here in a second Andy. Did you have any thoughts on my question? Yeah, I actually in it was in June of 2016 when

I first got it started getting working and online and things like that Historically always

I'd start out with by his grace and the line I've always carried with me and have said is

Everything that we have everything that we are is by the grace of God and over the last year I've really been diving into understanding

God -centered theology and for a while there are kind of rebranded went with that but over the past months, but specifically

I feel that the Spirit's been leading me to get back to my roots and that's why I've gone back to with the domain and with a title for what

I do going back to by his grace because With what Tyler was talking about?

You can't Have any hope for eternal life and One of the mistakes we make is thinking that we live our

Christian life We don't The Holy Spirit lives the Christian life through us and points us to Christ and Christ's power

Lives it through us and it's that's why it's so important to Understand the

Spirit's role is because he literally is the life source of the

Christian life by the grace of God and I brought out one of my favorite books the

Forgotten Trinity Dr. James R. White Had the I think I brought this up last time.

I was on a great pleasure of meeting him and having him sign the book and the very

Beginning of the book the first four words in the book. I Love the

Trinity And he says people don't often think about that. You know, why don't we talk about the

Trinity? Why don't we talk about Trinity? This is important because the Spirit of God is part of the triune

God We and as Keith was pointing out we rightly Get our

Christology, right and would argue strongly for it and against those that are incorrect We can do

God the Father but Spirit is just as important and if we don't get that, right

You ultimately when you really boil it down and you want to bottom line it If you don't get the

Spirit, right, you don't have God, right? Because God has revealed himself to be in three distinct persons. So that's why

I think it's important yeah, and I remember what I was where I was going with that because when the focusing on Christ and the importance of focusing on Christ and that's the focus of the

Holy Spirit is to focus on Christ and the other reason I think we you know, we correctly spend so much time focusing on Christ is and it bleeds over into eschatology

Because you have folks it says that we're going to deny that Jesus come to flesh

And so you have all these heresies that that are denying Christ everything revolves around Christ and and getting him wrong and getting his doctrine wrong and so and And well that leads us back to the

Holy Spirit and him leading us in truth To understand Christ correctly, so absolutely

I'm on board with everything that you guys are saying. Let's start at the top Keith and just go down our podcast guide tonight and some of these questions people may know the answer to it may be questions that have been on people's mind before and hopefully we'll encourage some folks with these questions, but why do some people refer to the

Holy Spirit as The Holy Spirit and some people refer to him as the

Holy Ghost and Doesn't matter my first Yeah, yeah, we'll go with you first, okay,

I will say from the outset I don't know that I can give a historical answer outside of this the

King James Version uses the term Holy Ghost in referring to the person of God the

Holy Spirit Even though it translates the word pneuma and you know as spirit in many other places it chooses when it's referring to the to the person of the

Holy Holy Spirit as the Holy Ghost and I think that's the delineation in the in and where a lot of people make the distinction when they talk about God as Spirit and obviously the

Father Son and Holy Spirit are all spirit God is spirit and we must worship him in spirit and truth and that sense the word spirit is appropriate but I think that those who say

Holy Ghost are trying to designate the person and one of the things that often does happen in regard to pneumatology is the problem of Calling the

Holy Spirit it calling him a by a neuter pronoun and and in doing so We we we tend to depersonalize the

Holy Spirit. So if somebody wants to say Holy Ghost because they're Distinguishing him as person.

I think that's fine. But I think it's also just a byproduct of the King James tradition and We see that in a lot of churches that are

King James only and especially Southern churches I'm a Southern I'm North Florida, but I'm Southern Georgia, too so and and and you know, we you know people talk about being filled with the

Holy Ghost and that's a Just a just a lingo, right and there but I do think that in regard to personality

Ghost seems more personal than spirit to some and that would be my my educated guess

And Andy, uh, you probably have some personal history with this conversation and I can sympathize with folks

I've heard folks talk like this where they will or pastors presenters conference speakers

They will quote a verse that they've Adapted or they've changed and went with a new a different version, but maybe when they'll quote the text they'll say well

I'm I'm memorized these passages from the King James because that's what I grew up with And so they may say

Holy Ghost and and I can sympathize with that. But I think Where Keith was going?

I think he was hitting Hitting the nail on the head that there's there's certain branches of the

Christian denominations that They're not taking that route where it's just the translations that they used when they were small is what they memorized but they take it a step further and and stick with that certain word and And won't budge on anything else.

Can you give us a little bit of history and background with that Andy? Yeah If someone it's like many things if someone

Is going to have a strict adherence to using the term ghost when referring to the Holy Spirit and doing it out of some

People tend to put a lot of negative connotation on the word ignorant, but if it comes from place of ignorance it's it's not something you need to belittle them or Necessarily correct them.

I think in this day that we live we understand that the term ghost The definition of that English word does not fit

What we know The term should mean and you got to remember the difference between Holy between ghost and spirit

The the issue is you're dealing with two English words The key with everything in Scripture is always what did

Mark write? What did John write? What did Paul write? And so we're studying pneumatology.

That's P as in Paul n e u m a Pneuma is

The English way of spelling that that word that's largely translated spirit and it just simply means breath wind spirit, that's

Simply what it means it's it's in the context in which it's used in Scripture That we get the deeper meaning of how it's being used would have the way in which it's meant to be used

And so it's really and it wasn't the King James translators fault. It weren't like they were

Looking to specifically or intentionally mistranslate at the time in which they lived the

English word ghost Largely meant the living essence of a person so that would be

For the most part largely consistent with how we would understand the term spirit today the immaterial part of man

God is spirit he It does not consist of anything that's created So our immaterial self our spirit which has been raised to life by the

Holy Spirit It's just change of English words over time, which is a natural progressive not politically progressive but based on the actual definition of the word progressive a progressive way in understanding language language changes over time

Greek the way it is used today is different than what it would have been then and so Understanding this we understand why the

King James translators use the word ghost in some places and when you look at it and We're not gonna go real deep into this because that's not the point of what we're doing here

But if you were to go really look at it They didn't even do it consistently and it wasn't that they were intentionally inconsistent

It's just they didn't have available to them what we have available to us today and so they had to do the best they could with what they had and so You know in our day,

I would say the most accurate Word that should be used is the word spirit

I don't I wouldn't advocate for using the word ghost in any translation, but at the same time someone's not sinning.

They're not intentionally incorrect or something if they if they do because like you said they memorized it that way or Whatever.

So I would just remind everyone that There's no conspiracies.

There's no issues But just keep in mind what did Mark write what did

Matthew write and then what is the best English translation for that in my Estimation spirit in for our day is a better translation and in the 16 17th century

They undoubtedly thought ghost was so and then just very quickly in terms of what Keith was hitting on.

Yeah Anytime you have a strict adherence like that There's certain groups. It pops up in my estimation what is being done is is a devaluing of who the spirit actually is because you're

Passing him off as just some ghost or some Essence that empowers you to do something and that's the

Holy Spirit's that's not what he is. So That's kind of how I would view it well, one of the things that I think is helpful for me at least and I hope for other people too and Kind of where I was leading us with that question

Keith you just did a video reviewing a debate between dr. James White and dr.

Is it Keith? Cleek Yeah, okay, so dr.

Cleek He would have been on the King James only side. Am I correct on that?

Well, he is a TR Advocate and the TR is the basis for the King James At least the

Scrivener version of the TR is and therefore yes He is a King James advocate, but that was not the point of the debate.

The point of debate was that the TR most faithfully Represents the autographs actually he says perfectly represents the autographs, right?

Right. So somebody in that camp the King James only camp Since the King James Coming from the

TR it uses the word ghost We may run into people

That are in that camp and want to have a conversation with us and and maybe sometimes a hard conversation with us

You know, we're using the wrong wrong word. I mean, how do we handle that conversation with somebody in that camp?

That that really pushes down presses down on us that we're using the wrong word We should say

Holy Ghost because it's in the King James Any Thoughts on that conversation

Depends on the context but if I were preaching at a church and I knew that that's the word that they were more familiar with and liked

I Would use it just to just because I'm not gonna let that be the thing that makes them not listen to me

I'm not gonna make them if there's a hill I'm gonna die on and ain't gonna be on the use of the word Holy Ghost Yeah But the flip -flop it there

They would have a strong attitude about it probably and it's it may make us uncomfortable because they're they're pressing in on us to use a certain word and you know, maybe

Yeah if somebody came to my church and I said Holy Spirit and they wanted to come to my office afterwards and challenge me on the

Use of the Holy Ghost. Well that well now we're on a different turf now and I don't mean to be like, you know turf wars You know, it's like we're the

Sharks and the Jets, you know, we're gonna But we're gonna have a different conversation if I'm if I'm in their church

I'm gonna acquiesce to their use of language as long as it's not wrong or ungodly but if they're coming to my church and Demanding that I speak

I've had people come in our church and demand that we use the King James And I'm like, there's the door, you know, you know

The same door you came in of you can go out, you know We're not gonna we we know who we are and we're satisfied with who we are

You're not gonna come in and make that change. You're not gonna argue us into it. So, you know Yeah When it comes down to the use of an

English word the only time you should ever be adamant about what English words are being used is if you can absolutely demonstrate that the use of a different word would be an

Actual incorrect translation and I don't have one on top of my head. But the issue with spirit and ghost is not one of those.

I Do think now if you ask me person I'd make the argument that Being that ghost does not in our common vocabulary does not mean the same thing the way they understood it in this early 17th century

I would say that you would be Kind of you're not really tied a hand behind your back but it's not as accurate as it could be and so you just like with anything if Somebody's King James preferred or King James only in their own personal

Whatever that's fine The issue is when you start making it a dogmatic assertion that all

Christians should do this All churches should do this and so that's where you just got to be careful with this

It's it's me really it's it's not anything to be worried or really fight over to begin with it's it's just you need to recognize this it the language has changed and The key is what did the original author write and the original author wrote a word that means spirit not

Ghosts as we understand it. It's not Casper the friendly ghost Be me to it

Andy Want to make sure

I got that in there is like I got it Tyler if we're studying scripture and We're new

We're new students of the word and we come across. I mean, we're familiar with the word Holy Spirit We're familiar with that, you know, he's the third person of the

Trinity But then we've come across verses that speak of God's Spirit or the

Spirit of God Who are we to understand that to be when when scripture references

God's Spirit or the Spirit of God Spirit of God? Is it is it the Holy Spirit that is referring to?

Yes, and no, okay It's yes in the sense that it's God and the

Holy Spirit is one of the persons of God But in terms of the trying to isolate the the person of the

Holy Spirit, I would say not necessarily We don't see the phrase the

Holy Spirit used as we understand it in that that Trinitarian way in the Old Testament So sometimes it's a little tricky to the feed that out

Sometimes we see phrases like the angel of the Lord and about half the times that we read about the angel of the

Lord It is Christ. It's the pre -incarnate Christ. So sometimes the the wording is different But like Romans 8 talks about the

Spirit of Christ Yeah, so there's there are times where the word spirit is used in a less specific sense

In regards to the Trinity that sometimes it is just God's spirits and those who worship him worship him in spirit and truth or the

Spirit of Christ because Christ is not in heaven in a human body That he ascended into heaven in a spiritual sense that he's not hanging out up there with his nail -scarred hands.

He is a resurrected glorified body And so he is in spirits and for I'm gonna have to I'm gonna have to disagree with you brother okay, the

We would believe at least I would believe that that Christ is in a glorified body in the same way

We are gonna be in a glorified body That he is not simply spirit now, but that he is in the person of Christ the man

Christ Jesus makes intercession for all men forever So I would disagree with you there.

Okay, I guess what I was trying to articulate is that he's not the same human body

That was nailed to the cross that it is it is different. I'm with you. I'm following you now Okay, the body that went into the tomb though is the body that was raised.

Do you agree? Yes Okay, and that's the body that's at the right hand of the father you agree. I don't know.

Okay, when did it change? I've always just thought because this is a cat first.

Yeah, go ahead This is a Calvinistic issue because Calvin argued that the reason why we deny transubstantiation

Is because the human body of Christ which is glorified now is not omnipresent while his spirit is omnipresent His body is not and therefore he believed in the spiritual presence in the bread in the cup, but not the actual literal presence in the bread in the cup because as Catholics and Lutherans believe his literal body is in the bread in the cup and Calvin Calvin said no can't be because his literal body is not

Universal his literal body is a glorified man that he is the glorified

God man And he continues to be forever. He became the God man in the Incarnation and he never stopped

Yeah, I definitely agree with that. I've never really gone into the depths of because I Would you know with Christ being the first fruits, you know

Bahat we're gonna we're gonna have glorified bodies fit for eternity Yes So what what I'm hearing you say is that when

Christ rose from the dead? The body he had when he ascended was already in in that state of perfection

Yeah, when you see him as he is you will be as he is first John Chapman. Yeah, I mean this is okay So the resurrection itself was a resurrection unto glory

Yes, Christ was in glorified body. This is why he could go beyond locked doors. This is why he is able to Translate himself into different places, but yet he can say put your hand in my nail -scarred hand.

He said that to Thomas He said put your hand here I love being challenged man.

That's a good point Okay, so I think We were talking about the whole the

Spirit of God right didn't mean to throw you off on that issue I Yeah, this is a yeah, okay, that was good.

Yeah, really good So I would I guess I would say that sometimes when we read about the

Spirit of God it is Referring to the Holy Spirit Specifically and sometimes it is referring to God as a

I guess he could say as a whole of which the Holy Spirit is a person of God Yeah, I would definitely agree with that too because What Keith is saying

I don't think Christ is in just in spirit form when he in the Incarnation There was never going to be a point in time after the

Incarnation where he had to go back to being in his pre -incarnate form but in terms of the specific question of the

God Spirit or Spirit of God Completely agree with Tyler in a sense of yes and no because it depends on the context

Context in original authors intent drives everything This is exam.

This is example by what we had already talked about and The word by itself

You know or the phrase God Spirit the Spirit of God on an island You could take to mean a number of different things as we've demonstrated

But in the context itself as Tyler point out some examples the context will tell you is this talking about?

Say the Spirit of Christ, or is it specifically referencing the third person of the Trinity? So that's what I would say in terms of the question when the

Bible says either God Spirit or the Spirit of God The way you understand is by going to the text.

What does the text say? Absolutely. I think I was just I just want to affirm.

I think Tyler hit the nail on the head in Romans 8 because I do think that's the interesting use of the word by Paul when he says it's the

The Spirit of Christ if the Spirit of Christ dwells not in you then you do not belong to him you know that that he uses the term

Spirit of Christ and And and we have to take a step back and say what do we mean by that?

And and and this goes to the whole have you asked Jesus into your heart, you know, people will say, you know I don't like that term

But there is a sense in which the Spirit of Christ dwells dwells with us Is that the Holy Spirit of God is that how do we understand that but I think that's one of those times

Where it's it's it's an interesting it doesn't say the third person of the

Trinity dwelleth within you It says the Spirit of Christ, so it's an interesting delineation there

Absolutely. I appreciate the guys I think that'd be very helpful, especially to a new student who's coming across these terms and Really wants to know what it means and that how do

I find out what it means? So I appreciate that and and Tyler he brought into the conversation the fact that we don't see the the words

And how we understand the Holy Spirit who he is in the New Testament. We don't see see him

Written about that way in the Old Testament So Keith, where can we where can we see the

Holy Spirit in the Old Testament? And what's his role in that Old Testament Old Covenant era? I think that we have to take a step back and again understand progressive revelation in that Obviously, I'm not a progressivist.

I think somebody said that already maybe Andy said that not progressivism but progressive revelation is that God has revealed himself in time and through time and so that there isn't a

God didn't God didn't hand down to Adam a systematic theology and say, you know

I'm one God and three persons. These three persons are co -equal co -eternal and distinct and yet we see

We see vestiges of Trinitarian language Even in the you know in the beginning

God created the heavens and the earth the earth was formless and void and the Spirit of God hovered over the face of the water. So is that the

Spirit of the Father? Is that the Spirit is that the Holy Spirit? you know, these are these are obviously and is this is the

Holy Spirit the the expression of God's will you know and Hovering and so and so I think we see

Vestiges of that language throughout the scriptures. I think we see it. He mentioned this that Christ being the Tyler mentioned

Christ being the Lord I think that's a very good thing to point out Also the

Spirit of God Moved on people we're gonna talk about this later because you have this as one of the questions But the

Spirit of God moves on people differently under the Old Covenant than in the New Covenant And we see Spirit of God moving on men like Saul and then departing from Saul yet in the

New Covenant We would say if the Holy Spirit indwells someone he doesn't then not indwell them He doesn't leave but we see this movement on Saul We see this movement on David and you know,

David said take not the Holy Spirit from me Psalm 51, you know So we see the Spirit of God doing these things

But it's not as clearly delineated as it is in the New Covenant. And so the New Covenant is a is a greater revelation

You know, you know people people people get mad at me. Sometimes I say we we have we have more than Moses did

Moses got to see God's hinder parts got Moses got to be in the presence of God on the mountain But we have more than he did and and we don't have to be bashful in saying that we have the completed

Revelation of God's written word Moses didn't have that. So yeah, we can we can make theological proclamations that would have been unknown to him

Yeah What what I find fascinating is is that I really think that the the folks in the

Old Testament the Old Covenant knew more than than we Understand them to know or what we think they knew because just with that plea from David Don't take your spirit from me

I mean, there's some there's some understanding of the role of the Holy Spirit there with within David to know or to know to Plea not to take your

Holy Spirit from me and we may we may not see or or understand

All that they knew or understand but I do think they had a In many areas a good understanding of of doctrine if we want to use one of our terminologies of the

Holy Spirit of God and You know looking forward to a Messiah to come

You know, there were things out Yeah I think they knew that we don't give them credit for it and I think that's an example of it You know with David they had a a pneumatology if you will

Um had an intimacy there was there was an intimacy there as well that that we often

Don't have yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and you mentioned hovering And that would be one of the examples

Correct of seeing the Holy Spirit there there in Genesis. I know you you've finished preaching through the book of Genesis Would you have described?

That was the spirit hovering over the Yeah, I take And I and I realized this is an argumentative point

So I will I will go ahead and lay out that you know, not everyone may agree and that's okay But I take a very

Trinitarian perspective on Genesis 1 26 and 27 I think the the argument in fact,

I just had Edward Alcor on my show last two weeks ago. He's a he's an expert Huh?

Yeah, the gripper. Yeah the gripper. Yeah, and we talked about You know people often excuse let us make man in our image as a as a as a royal

Plural or a majestic plural, but that's not that's not something we see in Hebrew literature

That's not something we see in that time period and to say that that's what that was Intending I think

Eliminates the idea that hey, this could be a veiled reference to the Trinity and I say veiled because it's not explicit

But when God speaks in terms of us and we I think there's something to that more than just Royal plural and so in that we could say there is

Reference to the Trinity and that's all throughout the Old Testament There are many many places where God speaks of himself in the in the in the plural not in the singular

Right. Yeah, just because you don't have the the depth of clarity in the

Old Testament You may have the New Testament because of progressive revelation in time That I've heard some that will say well, you know, the

Holy Spirit weren't really an operation then that's more of just when Jesus sent Him as the helper. I'm like No No God At the end day

God doesn't really owe us anything. He reveals what we need He reveals things as he chooses to So what you have to do is take what the

Old Testament does reveal and then understand it and you see the spirits Operation as Keith point out very well and Tyler did too.

It's his operations there you see I Mean the book of Job there's some there

It's it's all throughout it just like you say you can say that you see Christ all throughout the Old Testament The same is true of the

Father and Spirit. It's there It just may not be as clear and distinct because that wasn't the point

The original author was writing at the time whereas, you know in the New Testament You've got some specific teaching on some certain things specifically like I think of Philippians and how

Paul talks about you know the Hypostatic Union things like that, but the

Trinity's always been there. It's always It's it's something that Just didn't exist at some point.

It's always been a part of who God is it's just he has chosen reveal himself in such a way through his word in a progressive way and You see it the

Spirit was an operation Maybe in a different or maybe a distinct way

Juxtaposed to where we would see it now, but it doesn't mean he wasn't an operation He's always been there specifically in creation, too.

I like that point out Absolutely Let me ask all you guys this as well

Since we were talking about the the verses in Genesis and and viewing it in a Trinitarian way

I'm seeing the Holy Spirit there and and working but not necessarily The word

Holy Spirit where we can be, you know Other people have different views Do you see?

Do you see the same type of thing happening in in 2nd Timothy chapter 3 verse 16 because I mean that's where we

We we believe that the Bible scripture is inspired by God The the

Holy Spirit inspired men to write But it doesn't say in 2nd

Timothy 3 16 The Holy Spirit it says inspired which means

God breathed and and you know as Andy pointed out earlier, you know Pneuma means breath

Wind spirit and so do we have a similar thing going on here as we do in Genesis where?

We we see the Trinity there Um Even though the words are not specifically used is that going on in 2nd

Timothy 3 16 where it doesn't say Holy Spirit But we're understanding it to be the Holy Spirit What do you guys think about that one thing?

That's definitely worth pointing out. There is the Greek word where we get inspired Refers to breathing and it's actually the same word that's used in the

Septuagint version of Genesis 126 when God breathed into them the breath of life

That is a term that Paul is likely using from the Septuagint that he is formulating some of his ideas around the basically the

Old Testament And so I don't think it's out of place to say that we are referring to the

Holy Spirit Without using the phrase the Holy Spirit. Absolutely But am

I else on that one? Go ahead Keith I would also just add that the the parallel not not exactly the parallel passage

But the passage that went when I'm when we teach on the doctrine of inspiration

We often go to Peter's epistles as well where he says that holy men were carried along by the

Holy Spirit, you know They spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. So That that there to me is actually the process.

I think the I think 2nd Timothy Is the product all scripture is

God -breathed That's the product but the the Peter passage and I think it's 1st

Peter 121 but I think I'm wrong. What is it Tyler you finding it? In there, okay, but it's it when

Peter says, you know That they were carried along by the spirit. I think that's the the superintending of the

Spirit over Scripture So that's the process and 2nd Timothy is the product But both of them are relying upon the

Spirit. So absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, you know in a larger sort of like a macro 30 ,000 feet view

It's I agree because it's it's recognizing that scriptures of divine origin.

So you can say Scripture is God is the author of all scripture.

Jesus Christ is the author of all scripture The Holy Spirit is author all scripture need all be true. You also say

Scripture had human authors But as Keith just pointed out those human authors were super intended and carried along by specifically the the

Holy Spirit of God To ensure that what they wrote was it was no mixture of air.

It was true and it was what? God is divine author wanted to be written as they were carried along but specific to 2nd

Timothy 3 like I've always said context and understanding What is being presented so I'm not gonna read through the verses

But when you start the beginning of chapter 3 when he talks about the last days looking at right around in the end of the

Old Covenant and You know at 70 AD last days difficult times coming men's being lovered themselves treacherous holding to the form of godliness

Those among them that would enter households moving through He says they won't make further progress or folly becomes obvious to all so he

There's been a contrast being made here and he's saying this is what men will do as you see this time approaching

But you will be different you will be holy and sanctified distinct how? Because you followed my teaching he says conduct purpose faith patience love and perseverance

But he's also saying here Paul saying it's not me the man

That you're following me the man the teaching that you're following he says spirit scripture is

God breathe It's continue the things you've learned Continue to things that are profitable for teaching for a proof for correction for training righteousness.

Why because it's God breathe It's divided origin sacred and keeping in mind that second

Timothy's being written to Timothy this young pastor and Paul's telling him

So that the man of God and I believe in context he's referencing the biblically qualified elders that they may be equipped

Having been thoroughly equipped. How are you equipped not by following men not by following those that are lovers of self

But by following and learning and being discipled in the teaching of those that recognize that scripture is of divine origin and then you would couple that with what

Keith was hitting on with the other passage and I Never remember either as in Peter. He talks about and I look very long second

Peter 120 and 21. Yeah, so Yeah, so how was it super tended how was it carried out?

Well, that's a different subject matter I think it's a Timothy He's just simply recognizing the the essence and the origin of scripture and not necessarily how it came to be

I'm open to correction, but I kind of that's how I see it Well, I think Keith was also making a

Making his point about this topic I also think he was making a good point for for new students any student of God's Word a principle of biblical interpretation

I mean Looking at other verses in turning a verse that maybe is harder to understand in light of a clearer passage

Yeah, I mean if you have a full passage like Romans 5 is dealing with justification You don't go to some obscure verse and try to make

Romans 5 fit into that You take the sections where God has specifically dealt with something and that should take a priority in a sense

Yeah, yeah, and one of the things that you mentioned Andy you were talking about because we say that you know and in a certain individual is an author of this book, but ultimately and Over that the

Holy Spirit is the author of all scripture and so we have we have two authors, but the

Holy Spirit being the the ultimate author who You know gave them the inspiration the the words to say and it may be let me say it this way

Okay, it takes a second Timothy 316 by itself and conclusively determined that the

Holy Spirit carried the men along as they wrote You have to couple that with what else has been revealed. We take second

Timothy 316 by itself You can inclusively determine that all scripture is of a divine origin But the like like Keith was saying the product verse the process

So, yeah, it was just making me think about listening to the review that that Keith did of the debate to bring it up again but You know, dr

Cleat, you know He wanted to be to be on one side and and he was he was in one ditch to her and and he was appealing to Our you know

Christianity to our faith, you know, don't we? Don't we believe don't we have faith? In in this or have you know trusting

God in this area? why can't we just you know trusting God that this particular version is the his word, you know, the the

Original authorship that would that we have here. Why can't we just have faith in that? Why can't we just trust in the

Holy Spirit here that he's leading us in the right direction Of course, you know you you get Mormons who say, you know the same thing about their faith and so that's why it's a dish that we don't want to fall in and in you were and you were describing how we have

Two authors the human side of it and and the Holy Spirit side of things and to me the way

I've understand God's process throughout all All of time is that yes we do want to trust in the Holy Spirit to lead us in the truth and we trust we trust in his him and what

His work and what he's done But also there's the evidence factor of it that He gives us evidence.

He gives us proof. He gives us reason he gives us logic to use Along with his spirit

He gives us both so that we're consistent and we're we don't fall into either ditch. We're not just all evidentialist

We're not just all You know, I trust in how my bosom feels the the warmth that I have in my bosom

And that's the Holy Spirit speaking to me, you know, it keeps us from Yeah, that's right.

Keeps us from falling in either ditch and Well the issue with the debate was he was appropriating the

Holy Spirit and things of an interpretive nature to try to Conjure up something that's not a historical reality.

That was the that was the basis. Dr. White was trying to point out to him He keeps using and appropriating these terms that yes, we believe in faith.

Yes, we believe the Holy Spirit's direction But God is also the God of reality in his story and in history

There's not one shred of evidence for what you're presenting. That was Dr. White's main point to him So I would take what you just said and argue that we need to be careful

And dr. White deals with this in his book the Forgotten Trinity. He deals with you need to be careful how we use the

Holy Spirit's name because we're not and I'm not gonna get to this now because when you ask the question later about How do we grieve the

Spirit? There's more detail to be had there But one of the ways we grieve the Spirit is by invoking his name in ways.

He didn't want it invoked Right, that's right. I like to do this as well when we have a comment and I'm way behind on this comment because you she's referencing something we were talking about earlier

Becky says when my five -year -old first heard the term Holy Ghost He had nightmares that a ghost full of holes was coming to get him

What an experience So this will be our last question and we'll save the rest of them for Part two and hopefully our brother that's he commented.

He didn't give us his name It just says Facebook user But and so I don't know which one it is of of the guys that are making the film

But he said we are shooting the cessationist film right now in LA. Thank you for having this conversation and I interviewed

Les Lamphere Who's working on that film a couple months ago? And I was hoping to have him back on to talk about the cessationist film

So just so you know, the invitation is still out there. Yeah Tim Cannon is another one and He was the one

I was in contact with and and maybe I don't know which one of the two Reached out to us tonight, but um, maybe maybe

Tim will be with us And and I don't want to some of the guys that are that are part of the laborers podcast they they are more leaning and open to the

The charismatic view of the Holy Spirit the the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still in use today and so I Want to be careful and not, you know alienate those guys by having a cessationist on but I would like to hear his perspective and and Explain why he's doing the film

But I said so I think he will be helpful and add a lot to the conversation if we can get him on next week

So let's finish with this in in our last final minutes here this question and and Andy will will start with you and Tyler and Keith because actually this question it could be an episode in and of itself

I mean we keep going on and on about this question, but the give us a few attributes or Roles of the

Holy Spirit yeah, and briefly explain those roles and You know you other guys

Tyler and Keith the ones that he doesn't mention talk about some of the other roles of the Holy Spirit because We do see

Him more. We see we do see a broader

A deeper definition understanding in the New Testament. We know more about him through the New Testament through Jesus Ascending and then the

Holy Spirit coming down to be with us. So Talk about some of his roles Andy and then the other guys can fill in.

Okay. I'm not gonna do so much the scriptural specific specificity of roles, but I want to kind of take it from a

Personal but also more of a macro Not so much macro, but more of like a principled

Look what I mean is I want to read for you the first paragraph of chapter 10 in dr

White's book on the forgotten Trinity This chapter is called grieve not the Holy Spirit, but it's not specifically looking at that in particular

But in the first paragraph and this is talking about the role of the Spirit and I want to give a personal antidote he says there is a reason why the

Holy Spirit does not receive the same level and kind of attention that is focused upon the father and son and We've already covered this that sometimes we don't take the time to really

Study him the same way, but dr White's point is that is it's actually intentional that we don't see that focus in us to a degree because he says

It is not his purpose To attract that kind of attention to himself

So that's why he's almost sort of like the forgotten member of the Trinity in a sense. He says just as the

Sun Voluntarily chose to take the role of the suffering servant so as to redeem

God's people so to the Spirit has chosen to take the role as sanctifier and advocate of the people of God and Here's an important sentence that the last sentence of this paragraph is really key

He says but since it is the Spirit's role to direct the hearts of men to Christ and to conform them to his image

He does not seek to push himself Into the forefront and gain attention for himself

When I read this book for the first time a couple years ago, I mean

I got that intellectually but having been through a lot of things I've been through over the last couple of years and being in a position of pastoring and being

Quote unquote on stage and out in the forefront and to a degree. I mean pastors We don't seek glory thing, but you are literally up in front of people you tend to take a more prominent role but then having now been you know three years and a couple weeks now since I've been a pastor and will still wanting to be a pastor and God teaching me how to wait and I don't do that.

So well, I don't persevere very well Which is why God's putting me in positions learn how to persevere

The humility and the maturity I'm going through so much so that my wife's starting to notice it something happened recently where?

We had something where we could have been angry at someone. I was like, well, you know Let's give them the benefit of the doubt there may be things we don't know and this may all just take care of itself

She's like, who are you? What has happened to you? And so in a strange way and there's a long way to go for me but from a personal level,

I'm starting to understand and experientially live that out in an

Imaging Christ or the power of the Spirit because he's not seeking to push himself or for his glory about the forefront

He wants to push out Christ and put the glory to Christ. And so the Spirit of God is very in a very real way

Teaching me through this humility of waiting and understanding that Andy you can't put yourself in the forefront

You can't put yourself where you think or where you should be or want to be or need to be I'll take care of it.

God's sovereign and you know, you're not and this layer that of learning experientially that I'm getting is understanding that If I'm going to be walking in the will of God by the power of the

Spirit of God I'm going to be modeling things that the Spirit wants me to model and the model is about humility and not being at the forefront

Being and I've come to realize this this is a powerful statement that I've come to realize The greatest work that the

Holy Spirit does is behind the scenes behind closed doors in prayer closets when nobody sees what you're doing and You're faithful and you persevere because there's so much

About things and we all go through things but so many things I've been through that would love to just publicly

My flesh wants me to bring it up and you know Make sure people know how these people were or this situation or whatever it is.

And the older I'm getting I'm learning that no, you don't Because God may use my silence to convict them

Just as he's used probably other people's silence and not correcting me in a moment to convict me

And so I would wrap up my comment by saying this one of the reasons and The charismatic the very flamboyant sort of You know the

Holy Ghost, you know I grew up in an environment where you know If the singing was really loud people were shouting and screaming and running on pews boy, the

Holy Spirit really got a hold of us today But I started thinking about that, you know, the Holy Spirit is not there to put himself at the forefront.

I Don't see him being a part of that. I see him being a part of the work Faithfulness discipleship perseverance

Being faithful when no one's looking being faithful if you are in the public eye so I would just say from a personal standpoint his role and one of the biggest important parts of his role for me has been teaching me that Humility comes at a cost but it's one of the greatest treasures you can have because pride is the antithesis

To the whole who the Holy Spirit is Oh, I don't want to take anything away from the other guys giving their final words about the

Holy Spirit tonight But I do want to have a conversation about something that you read Describing the

Holy Spirit as an advocate of God I Think if I study that a little bit more

I think it's gonna blow my mind So I won't have a conversation about that But a little bit later, so okay.

Is it an agreement or disagreement? Probably probably agreement

Push it out a little bit more and and see see where it takes me. Oh, I'm sorry No, he said advocate of the people of God was the statement

Okay After the people okay, okay So what he means there is in like in Romans 8 where it says that he comes alongside us

When we don't even know what words to say to pray he hears the groanings. He's there advocating and work

He's not saying that he is the intercessor in the same way that Christ is His point he's making the point.

I don't I think you maybe misunderstood. What was I think I did? Yeah Yeah, I missed that last part.

Yeah, all right Tyler we'll go with you ended up end up with Keith for your final words on the roles of the

Holy Spirit. I Think my one of my favorite verses on the work of the

Holy Spirit is 1st Corinthians 12 3 and part of what

Paul is laying out in 1st Corinthians is the the gifts of the Spirit Yeah the what we can tell from the context is that the some of the

Christians in the church in Corinth were focusing more on certain giftings of the

Spirit more than others that some of it being the the the big once we can see kind of like what

Andy was talking about with Being in the forefront, you know speaking in tongues doing this doing that These are the big gifts of the

Spirit that we want to focus on and Paul is addressing some of this And in chapter 12, he says he's talking about that the diversity of the gifts, but the basic one is no one speaking by the

Spirit ever says Jesus is accursed because one of the pagan practices in that day was mythical speech was

Like that the different entities speaking through people and not really controlling what you were saying and That's not what speaking in tongues is that there is something defined here

And so no one's speaking by the Spirit ever says Jesus is accursed But no one can say

Jesus is Lord except in the Holy Spirit that We talk about gifts of the

Spirit we talk about speaking in tongues and we talk about healing and we talk about teaching and preaching and all these things

But we have a tendency to forget that to say Jesus is Lord is a gift of the

Spirit that without the without the Holy Spirit That becomes an impossibility to say to sit under to be cognizant of that Jesus is

Lord That God has already put something in me To do what

I could not do before right and that is to say Jesus is Lord to sit under the

Lordship of God Well, I mean when we talk about the role of the

Spirit there there we didn't get to the question tonight of whether or not the role of the Spirit is different than New Covenant and the

Old Covenant and I know we don't have time to get into that but that is I do think that there is a distinction to be made in regard to indwelling and Even the concept of regeneration as we understand quickening in the

Old Covenant What's referred to as circumcision of the heart that was a work that was done by the

Spirit Moses references it as you know, you're circumcised in the flesh, but not circumcised in the heart and so that I think finds its fullness in the

New Testament doctrine of regeneration and Therefore we could say that the End of this goes

I'm really just parroting what what Tyler just said because he made the point you can't say Jesus is

Lord without the Holy Spirit. Yeah, because And the reason is is because it's the Spirit who gives life.

It's the Spirit who gives that that the regeneration and the circumcision of the heart these this is the work of the

Spirit and Jesus tells us that unless a man be born again, he will not see the kingdom of heaven and then he

Specifically says the Spirit blows where he wills, you know And in references the fact that the one who is doing the birthing the one who is giving the regeneration is the

Spirit And so I would say that the most important work of the Spirit is giving us life and giving us the desire

To follow after Christ for without him we would have not that ability to do that Well, I'm gonna get my final words and then

Keith if you will if you'll share the gospel Tyler when he finishes Will you close us in prayer? Absolutely.

All right. Here's my final words in listening to these three gentlemen

Sharing the role of Holy Spirit. I want to go back to a word that Andy used and he talked about pride and Listening to the attributes and roles of Holy Spirit from these guys if you didn't

Feel like the pride Within me within us should just be melting and rolling off of us

We miss something because I think about the Attribute of every person in the

Trinity God the Father God the Son of God the Holy Spirit I think about God in in Matthew chapter 11 and in Matthew 28

Where in Matthew 11 Jesus says God has handed all things over to me and in Matthew 28

Jesus says all authority has been given to me so God the Father the

The most ultimate I mean, there's not even a word to describe who he is and compared to the universe that he's created

Gives all authority to someone else we would never do that. We would never give our authority

To anybody else we would want to to reign on the throne That's who who we are as sinful human flesh and and then

Jesus Coming to her earth humbling himself in The form of in the form of man putting on flesh that he may die in our place what humility and then the

Spirit and his First his first and foremost role is as we stated tonight to point to Christ so it seems like if there's a

Top -five humility is going to be up there in in the attribute of God himself.

And How can we how could we have? Any pride within ourself?

How could how can we not have a desire to rid ourselves of? Pride when the

God of the universe our the Savior of our souls and the Spirit who who makes us alive

Themselves are humble and and do not They they want to point to the the other they want to give to the other they want to give to us.

And so That's gonna be my prayer is that the

Holy Spirit would just help that pride to escape From within me that I can so that I can be more like Christ Be more pleasing to the

Father and be more helpful to the Holy Spirit So that that's my final thoughts Keith.

Would you share the gospel with us, brother? Yes, sir in Hebrews chapter 9 in verse 27.

It says it is appointed unto every man Wants to die and after this is judgment if we stand before God without Jesus Christ we will be judged and we will be found guilty because the

Bible says that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and people often make that a small thing.

Oh, everybody's a sinner. Yeah, everybody's a sinner, but that's not a small thing We have committed high treason against the

Lord of the universe and we are justly deserving of his punishment but God sent his son born of a woman born under the law that he would redeem those who are under the law and give us the adoption of sons and what we must do is we must recognize our sin repent of it and Trust in the finished work of Jesus Christ There is nothing else in the world that can save us and there is no other name under heaven given among men

By which we must be saved. So if you've never trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ, I would encourage I would urge you

To recognize your sin and recognize that Christ is a greater

Savior than you are a sinner Amen All right, let's pray.

Oh Lord our Lord How majestic is thy name in all of the earth

Lord we come to you having been fed We come to you having our eyes directed

To who you are to all that you are To what you've done what you're doing and what you will do and Lord.

I pray that what we've discussed That this these glorious treasures that you've given us in your word

They would go deeper That they would strike us anew They'll hit us as fresh

Did they lead us to go further into your character Not for academic purposes not to be smarter

But to know that God who gave himself as a ransom for us To be further encapsulated

But all that you are in Christ's name, I pray. Amen Thank you guys for your input,

I really appreciate it was helpful to me and I'm praying that it's gonna be encouraging Anybody who watches and listening listens.

Thank you guys for watching the labors podcast We really appreciate it and we want you to remember that Jesus is

King to live in the victory of Christ go share the gospel of Christ and I Forgot my third way.

It's been so long Podcast. I forgot my second one we want to live in the victory of Christ share the gospel of Christ and Speak the words of Christ speak the words of Christ.

That's that's good enough. I've been a horrible host tonight We've had a lot of life happening here in in my family, but please forgive please forgive me

But we do appreciate you watching. We hope you will come back and maybe I will be more refreshed then