Witnessing to Mormons: Monotheism (part 1 of 3)

Alpha and Omega Ministries presents the Dividing Line radio broadcast. The Apostle Peter commanded all

Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give this answer with gentleness and reverence.

Your host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha and Omega Ministries, and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. If you'd like to talk with Dr.

White, you can call now by dialing 508 -0960. That's 508 -0960.

And now, with today's topic, here's James White. And good afternoon, and welcome to The Dividing Line.

My name is Rich Pierce, and I am your substitute host while Dr. James White is out gallivanting around the state of New York.

Currently, he's up on Long Island, and it's my understanding that he did something that,

I guess, ten years ago, if you'd have told me and James that we would be doing something like this, it would have blown our minds.

He is speaking today at the Worldwide Church of God. This was once a cult, and through God's opening the doors and hearts of the leaders of that organization, he brought them together with Hank Hanegraaff, and they sought out his counsel to become

Orthodox, and to repent of their heresy, and to become into the fold of the

Bible -believing Christian churches. And this just goes to show that God can open these kinds of doors.

This goes to show that it's not always impossible to reach the groups that we feel are the hardest to reach, and potentially even impossible to reach.

And so please pray for him as he does that, and as he is going around New York, preaching at so many different churches, they have a schedule.

If you look up on our internet website, you just go, wow, how can one man do all these things? But this is the man we have leading our organization, and we appreciate him greatly.

Today we're going to be talking about the Mormon Church. Joining me today is, to my left,

Mr. Sean Hahn. He is a member of Alpha Omega Ministries, has gone with us several times, witnessing on the front lines out in Mesa, Arizona, at the

LDS Temple out there, as well as up in Salt Lake City. He has taught a

Christian training class at his church on how to witness to Mormons. Welcome to the dividing line,

Sean. Thank you, it is good to be here, it's a pleasure. And also, once again, with us is

Mike Munoz. Mike has taught Bible studies at his church, as well as, he is one of those guys

I call a bookworm. Mike is always diving into some new theological work that somebody's put out, and he's just absolutely fascinated with it.

Welcome back to the dividing line, Mike. Thank you, excited to be here. Okay. Well, our topic in the next three weeks is to ask the question, are

Christians Mormons, or actually, where that comes from, is something that we run into all the time when we're out witnessing in Mesa or in Salt Lake City.

When somebody walks up to us and they ask the question, well, do you believe that we're Christians?

Mormons are Christians, they're just as Christian as anybody else. After all, the name of Jesus Christ is right there in the name of our church, the

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Well, we like to turn that around a little bit and ask the question, well, are

Christians Mormons? The redundant or the rhetorical question there is that, well, you know, if we're just a different denomination, we believe the basic same things, then can any

Christian become a Mormon and not have to overhaul their theology, not have to do a major rework on what they believe?

Later in this broadcast, I'm going to read something to you that is from our Christian information system and it is a message entitled,

Are Christians Mormons? I think it's going to bring home the message loud and clear. Anyway, perhaps you're not that familiar with the

Mormon church. Perhaps you have some Mormon neighbors and you're thinking these guys are just, you know, they're just Christians like anybody else and they believe pretty much the same thing.

They're just a little bit more strict about things. They don't drink alcohol, they don't drink coffee, they live a clean life, their missionaries go door to door, they come by the house every now and then, you know, wearing the nice clean cut haircut and the white shirts and the dark ties and they ride bicycles and they lead a life for two years of pretty much kind of self -denial and sacrifice as they go around their mission.

These are dedicated young men, no question about it. But perhaps that's pretty much all you know of the

Mormon church. Well, just to give you a brief introduction to Mormonism, first of all, as the

Mormon church tells the story in Joseph Smith's history, this being the 1838 account,

Joseph Smith had been going around and he had been, well, very interested in the religious uprising that was going on in his area.

There was a great deal of revival going on amongst Baptists, amongst Presbyterians, amongst all the different groups in the area in upstate

New York and he was rather fascinated by that. Well, he went to some of these revivals where they were interdenominational revivals, you know, the old tent meetings as we hear it and he listened to them preaching and he listened to people discussing religion in the hallways or outside of the tent or wherever you may have that, however you can picture that and he found the discussions rather confusing and eventually he became so frustrated that he just felt that he needed to pray.

He was reading James 1 .5 where it says, if any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God and he went out into a grove of trees nearby his home and he began to pray and he got down on his knees, long story short, he had a vision from God.

He had a vision from God whereas he tells in his, and I emphasize this in his 1838 version of the story, he says that he had a direct visit from God the

Father and his son Jesus Christ and he describes them as being two separate and distinct personages and having two different bodies.

The interesting thing is in Joseph Smith history he says when he asks the personages which church should he join, which one's right?

They tell him none of them are, none of them. In fact God the Father as he puts it tells him that all their creeds are an abomination in his sight and all their professors are corrupt.

That is the very cornerstone of the Mormon church and that's why it had to start according to the

Mormon church. They founded eventually a church on April 6, 1830 with eight members and they started off by calling it the

Church of Christ. Eventually it was entitled the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and Sean Hahn is here with us.

He's got some statistics for us that I think really give us an impact on what kind of group, the size that it has grown to.

Sean, why don't you share some things with us there. It's amazing to realize that the church began in 1830 with just six members on April 6th and now currently published on their website their total membership is 10 ,354 ,241.

Wow, that's a lot of people. That's a huge growth. So it wasn't eight, like I said it was six. Correct, six members in April 30 and a couple other quick statistics.

The converts baptized during 1998 on their website 299 ,134 and furthermore they have a total of 57 ,853 guys and gals dressed in white shirts pedaling bicycles around.

Full -time missionaries, 57 ,853 full -time missionaries. Wow. Folks, the thing you have to keep in mind is and I want to talk for a moment here to the

Bible -believing Christian out there. You're an evangelical and you believe that we need to share the gospel with people.

But the question I have for you is do you view yourself as a missionary? Do you see the back doorstep, the front doorstep of your home as a mission field?

The question that I have for you is are you going to church and you're giving to your church and you're supporting your church and in your mind evangelism is taking place through that as your monies go to missionaries that are sent out around the world.

And that's a good thing. We need to be doing that. We are called to do that. No question about it. But my contention is this and this is a contention of Alpha and Omega Ministries as we do the work we do evangelizing

Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and Roman Catholics. One of the things we emphasize is the fact that right here in the good old

USA we're failing our calling. We're failing to take the word of God to the people that are right next door to us.

And that's easy to do. And really what boils down to a politically correct society that we've been raised in.

You know Richard right on it's interesting all three of us have heard statistics from different sources that the largest number of converts are actually coming out of Baptist denominations.

I think you shared a statistic earlier this week about was it 16 to 1?

No actually this was a statistic that I had heard about 10, 12 years ago and that it was 24 to 1 was the conversion ratio from Baptists becoming

Mormons. 24 for every one Mormon that became a Baptist. And that really just does illustrate that we are losing ground here.

We're losing the ground. But then again back to the very heart and soul of our subject here.

Is there ground to lose? Aren't these people just maybe crossing over to different denominational lines?

Are they just going from one church to another where God would lead them and have them be? Well I'm going to read some quotes for you folks today and we're going to discuss these quotes as we go along through the hour and I think they might illustrate for you the radical difference between Biblical Christianity and Mormonism.

The one thing I want to challenge the Mormon folks who might be listening out there right now. 5080960.

We want to talk with you. We would like to hear from you. If you have a differing opinion.

If you have a dissenting opinion. You don't agree with what we're saying today. We invite you to give us a call.

We would like to talk with you. And the thing I want to emphasize to you is we don't want to have a big old argument.

We're not here to get in anybody's face. We're not here to just make a lot of trouble and a lot of noise.

We genuinely care about your soul. We genuinely want to know about your situation.

We want to have some dialogue with you and we don't want to just get into a big old cat fight here. But I'm going to quote from what is the cornerstone.

And again this week we're going to be focusing on who God is as the

Mormon Church teaches in contrast to who God is as the

Bible teaches. And we want to discuss that. Maybe there is no difference.

But I think as I start reading some things here you might consider that differently and consider that there is some differences.

From the King Follett funeral discourse. Now understand folks this is from Joseph Smith. I believe the date is approximately 1844.

And the background here if you get the context of what's going on and I'm going to take an excerpt from the

King Follett funeral discourse. If you pick up Joseph Smith history or teachings of the prophet

Joseph Smith by Joseph Fielding Smith. You're going to find this in and around from like pages 340 through 370.

I didn't write that exactly down what those page numbers were. But it's lengthy. It's a fairly lengthy discussion or sermon by Joseph Smith.

And you might add Rich that this sermon it's a funeral sermon. It was preached for a gentleman who was an elder in the

Mormon church to approximately 20 ,000 Mormons. But this particular sermon happens to be pivotal in the understanding of Mormonism in their view of God as it resides today.

Let me read this for you. God himself was once a man as we are now and is an exalted man and sits enthroned in yonder heavens.

That is the great secret. I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was

God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil so that you may see it is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another and that he was once a man like us.

Yea that God himself the father of us all dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did and I will show it from the

Bible. Here then is eternal life to know the only wise and true

God and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves and to be kings and priests to God the same as all gods have done before you namely by going from one small degree to another and from a small capacity to a great one and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings and to sit in glory as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power to inherit the same power the same glory and the same exaltation until you arrive at the station of a

God and ascend to the throne of eternal power the same as those who have gone before.

Listen to this one. The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co -equal with God himself.

Now as I consider the biblical presentation of God and who

God is that's a little bit different. Guys, what do you think?

It's quite a bit different. In fact, just backing up just a little bit and I think it's necessary to understand this.

Joseph Smith was extremely concerned that his people understand the character of God and we as Christians would say the same thing.

It's extremely important. I remember about a year ago and it was out in Mesa during the

Easter pageant and I was talking to a high school student a young man from the Mormon faith and the veins in his neck the redness of his face when

I explained to him that we actually believe in two different gods and he was taken aback at that.

He was like, what do you mean? I believe in the God of the Bible. How can we believe in two different gods? And I think what you just read and we're going to get into it throughout the hour is if that is the

Mormon view of God then I personally would have a hard time being a Mormon. I don't know that I would be accepted because that's not my view of God.

Yeah. But also when you turn to the pages of the Old Testament and the New Testament you're confronted with passages like Hosea 11, 9 says, for I am

God and not a man. Another one is found in Psalm 50, verse 21. You thought

I was just like you. And God says, I will reprove you and state the case in order before your eyes.

Or another excellent one, Numbers 23, 19. God is not a man that he should lie nor the son of man that he should repent.

And on and on and on. Yeah. You know, the other thing is we get into the issue here is that Joseph Smith in this sermon outright contradicts the

Christian doctrine of the Trinity and you can read the Book of Mormon and the interesting thing is is that up to this point or somewhere along the lines in his evolution of theology he was monotheistic.

He believed in one true God. His depiction in the Book of Mormon of God is modalistic at best but it does reflect the way a young man who is listening to Christian preachers try to preach about the

Trinity. It basically gives off a rote understanding of the

Trinity and that's when you consider the fact the Book of Mormon was published prior to 1830.

You don't see polytheism in the Book of Mormon, do you guys? Not at all. In fact, I'll give you one example in 2

Nephi, chapter 31, verse 21 and I quote, And now behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God.

And now behold this, this is the doctrine of Christ and the only and true doctrine of the

Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost which is one God without end. Amen.

Now that's difficult because when you're discussing this with some of the young Mormon missionaries they'll come to your house and they'll show you this and it is a contradiction and I would agree

Joseph Smith his theology certainly did develop. Yeah, and if you open the beginning of the

Book of Mormon and you read the witnesses the three witnesses that are there the testimony of Martin Harris, Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer in the front of the

Book of Mormon it records them saying And the honor be to the Father and to the

Son and to the Holy Ghost which is one God. Amen. So that's what they say and the

Book of Mormon is clearly monotheistic in its presentation of God. Go ahead

Mike. Well I was going to say absolutely and again just one more sample from the Book of Mormon in Moroni chapter 8 verse 18

For I know that God is not a partial God neither a changeable being a complete contradiction from what you heard in the

King Follett discourses but he is an unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity and yet just a few years after this

Doctrine and Covenants which is really where the pivotal change in his concept of God changes as you start seeing for instance the 1838 account of the first vision he sees

God the Father and Jesus Christ in separate bodies as separate and distinct persons and in Doctrine and Covenants section 130 verse 22 now folks if you're out there and you've never really studied

Mormonism at all you need to understand that Mormonism has what they call four standard works if you will the

Mormon Scriptures the first standard work of the Mormon Church is the Book of Mormon of course and second to that is the

Doctrine and Covenants and then third the Pearl of Great Price and I'm going to emphasize here

Mormons don't get too upset with me right away here I'm going to emphasize that those are co -equal in their understanding of Mormon doctrine the fourth standard work and I'll explain why

I separated that out is the Holy Bible the reason I separated it out is in their

Articles of Faith the Mormon Church separates it because on that particular book they put the caveat in as much as it is translated correctly so essentially when it comes down to talking to the average

Mormon on the street and you get into a direct contradiction in the

Bible or from the Bible to Mormon doctrine that's when they come up with well that must not have been translated correctly and so it kind of behooves us to have some understanding of the original languages then when we're talking to Mormons and be able to communicate with them in such a way that we can bring out what the original language has to say and be able to expose the fact that they're just simply making an excuse for a direct contradiction in terminology now in Doctrine and Covenants section 130 verse 22 it says that the

Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's the Son also but the

Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones but is a personage of spirit were it not so the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us now this is pivotal the scriptural understanding of God the

Father of Jesus Christ and that they have bodies of flesh and bones as tangible as man's now why the

Holy Ghost doesn't have one I don't know and I want to briefly in the next five minutes or so go over for you what is called the

Law of Eternal Progression and again if you're looking for direct quotations from authoritative sources we're really working from the

King Follett funeral discourse this is a foundational understanding of Doctrine and Covenants section 130 verse 22 as well as other

Mormon scriptures that Joseph Smith is expanding on and on page 349 he begins talking about a council of the gods

I'm not going to read it for you I'm just going to describe for you what is the Law of Eternal Progression now for the

Christian we read the Holy Bible we understand the person of God to be the eternal thing if you will in all existence okay when we think about God that is the thing that is the one being who is the beginning of everything he is the constant in the universe well in Mormonism that's not true and again folks

I want to invite Mormons to give us a call we did have one gentleman call in and he was on the phone for a few seconds and then

I read the King Follett funeral discourse and he decided he thought better of it but we do honestly want to talk with you if you are a

Mormon please give us a call at 508 -0960 we do want to talk to you today but the

Law of Eternal Progression the eternal thing in Mormon thought is matter matter has always existed matter always will exist and from that matter we get intelligences okay and those intelligences start up and there is spirit beings and then there are

I want to just kind of cut to the chase those spirit beings are begotten by heavenly gods okay well how do they become gods well you are going to understand this is going to come full circle as I begin to describe it out the

God procreates or can populate a planet by giving his offspring bodies of flesh and bones he goes and as it were organizes that planet he takes the matter he organizes it and starts that planet he then can populate that planet with his offspring and so what we have is what is called the pre -existence those spirit beings those spirit children are existing in a pre -existence then when they come to earth and physical bodies they are going through what is called the mortal probation that is what we are all going through here on earth according to the

Mormon church we are all going through a mortal probation now ultimately those who become

Mormons those who go through the temple ceremonies those who become if you will the highest echelon of Mormonism and they take that on they are married in the temple they need to go through all the temple ordinances they need to be priests etc.

they have the capacity to actually become gods after this life and so when

Joseph Smith talks about how God dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did he can say that because God the father of this planet had to go through the law of eternal progression on that planet and so as he progresses through that and he goes through that process and he became a god and then came here organized this planet and started begetting spirit children came down and there is some dispute within Mormon groups as to how the bodies of flesh and bones came about I will touch on it briefly and it is not

I want to emphasize to Mormon listeners this is not what the church and average Mormons believe today but Brigham Young took that concept and he believed that Adam was

God he believed that God the father actually had to come down here and start the physical race himself in order for that to begin the population expansion if you will so but that is not what is taught today so there is some disagreement about that but ultimately those the rest of us who are not

Mormons can go to potentially three different levels of heaven the Mormon who becomes a

God goes to what they call the celestial kingdom and becomes a God there are three different levels within the celestial kingdom for instance if I don't

I got married last year first time 37 and I used to joke about the fact that if I were a

Mormon and I had been single my entire life I couldn't become a God because I had to be married in the temple as a requirement to become a

God so there are angels in that level as well and those angels serve the gods in the celestial kingdom now the other level is called the terrestrial level and the lower level below that is the telestial level now ultimately when it comes down to it those of us who are non -Mormons we haven't been

Mormon we haven't gone through that process I just looked at the clock and realized that it is time for us to take a break

I'm going to continue on talking about the law of eternal progression when we come back again 5080960 we invite your calls to be by the in your hearts always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you yet with gentleness and reverence

Alpha and Omega Ministries presents the dividing line radio broadcast the apostle

Peter commanded all Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us yet to give this answer with gentleness and reverence your host is

Dr. James White director of Alpha and Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church if you would like to talk with Dr.

White you can call now by dialing 5080960 and now with today's topic here is

James White and welcome back to the second half of the dividing line radio broadcast my name is

Rich Pierce I'm the president of Alpha and Omega Ministries and I'm sitting in for James over the next three weeks and with me today are

Sean Hahn and Mike Munoz we're discussing the Mormon concept of God and I was in mid -sentence actually when

I realized we needed to take a break in the last half hour but just quickly to wrap up because I want to focus on who

God is today with our discussion and one of the things I want to get at is that in the law of eternal progression it is foundational to understanding how

God came to be God. The rest of us the non -Mormons have a potential or we are going to go to a place that they call spirit prison.

We have the potential to go to any one of the levels of heaven depending on who you talk to based on what they do in their baptismal work.

Ultimately the bottom line is when we go through the mortal probation here we have the potential to become

God coming out the other side and that is how God came to be God in Mormon thought.

Now the other thing is that Joseph Smith this is a direct denial if you will of the

Trinity. He says from teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith on page 370

I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ to be a separate and distinct personage from God the

Father and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a spirit. These constitute three distinct personages and three gods.

If this is in accordance with the New Testament low and behold we have three gods anyhow and they are plural and who can contradict it.

One of the things I want to go after here is we have callers online here. We have

Robert in Phoenix. Let's see if I can bring you online Robert. Hello sir. How are you today?

Good Dr. White. Actually no I want to correct you here. My name is Rich Pierce. Dr. White is out of town this week so I'm kind of filling in for him but your question.

Okay I am not a Mormon and I know that you stated you wanted to limit your discussion a little bit to the question of God.

I'm still confused. They have a physical death. They resurrect as a

God somewhere literally and then they venture out. Again we go into the concept that there is this eternal progression that is going on and we start from mere nothingness.

We proceed to spirit beings and we go through a mortal probation and again we have the potential in Mormon thought to actually go to a point where we can become gods.

It is actually Robert it is a good question but your exaltation is dependent upon if you are a

Mormon and Mormon thought is dependent upon what you did in this life. How you lived your life in obedience to the laws and the ordinances found in Mormon scripture.

If you are not a Mormon then this whole idea isn't for you then you just were perishing in this prison?

You would wind up in where they call spirit prison and you get a second chance to hear the gospel and in that second chance essentially angels or messengers are sent down into the spirit prison to preach the

Mormon gospel to you and then you can accept or reject the Mormon gospel but you don't have the ability to become a

God there. You can just simply go to be with whoever your relative was that baptized in your place.

They go through baptisms, proxy baptisms and went through the temple ceremonies for you as well in your behalf.

But that is kind of up for dispute and that kind of goes along. We do have some other callers so thank you for your call today

Robert. Line two we have got Chris in Peoria. Go ahead

Chris. Hi Rich. My question is would you discuss the role of genealogy and how it relates to progression and then also what is the significance of blessings?

You are going to need to be a little more specific. I mean those are kind of broad topics especially the significance of blessings.

I am not real sure what the mean by that. When a blessing is bestowed upon a

Mormon brother what does that mean? I mean we know what it is within our...

You are talking about the patriarchal blessing? Correct. Okay. That is a very good point although that kind of stems more over into the issue of the priesthood and becoming a priest, the

Aaronic priesthood and that they are if you will they are given a blessing, a patriarchal blessing and they are at that point in time given or told what tribe.

They are actually kind of spiritually grafted into the Hebrew 12 tribes and in our experience it has been more the tribe of Ephraim or Manasseh that they are given to and that gets into a whole other issue of the priesthood and the issues behind the priesthood and the fact that the

Aaronic priesthood can only be held by someone of the Levitical line and who is an

Aaronic priest. They have to be of the family of Aaron as well but I'm not real sure. That is more part and parcel of the mortal probation and becoming there.

We can get into specifics and we can go on for hours and unfortunately we have limited time today.

What was your first question again? The role of genealogy. Okay, yeah.

The role of genealogy has to do with like I was talking about the becoming the evangelism.

Let me use that as a term here, as a catalyst. They're talking about evangelism, evangelizing the dead essentially is what they are doing.

They are reclaiming the dead who are stuck down there in spirit prison and it is really on their shoulders to redeem them and that is why they are going through that process.

Again, thank you for your call today Chris and we are going to move along to Joe on line three.

Joe, can you hear me? Yes, I can. Okay, and your question sir? Well, not a question but a comment.

You speak of, well I am a Mormon and you speak of our religion and I am just wondering, you are saying a lot of negative things but you say nothing of the positive things.

Let me ask you a question here. Do you consider the King Follett funeral discourse a negative thing? Could you repeat that?

Do you consider Joseph Smith's King Follett funeral discourse a negative thing? No, but the light you put it in I consider it to be a negative light.

When I speak of our religion I speak I think in terms of the strong family values that we instill.

The good things that we do. But we are trying to focus and we are not denying any of that.

Let me explain something to you. I have been doing this since 1986. I have talked with hundreds of Mormon folks and I want to emphasize to everybody hearing my voice right now that the folks that I have talked to are the nicest folks.

They do a lot of great work. They help people tremendously and they are very sincere.

There is just no question in my mind as to the sincerity. Let me ask you this. What is it that makes you,

I mean what proof do you have to make your beliefs stronger than mine?

How can you say as a matter of fact that King James Version of the

Bible should be taken more seriously than say my praying to a salamander? I am not sure what you mean about praying to a salamander but the issue of how we got the

Bible does become a major point in discussing our faith with the

Mormon folks and how we got the Bible, how it came through and was handed down to us, how it was transmitted to us and understanding what it really has to say.

But ultimately when it comes down to what we are talking about we need to understand that in the

Christian faith we believe that there is only one true God and we have all kinds of biblical evidence for that when the

Mormon church comes along and says that that is all wrong and Joseph Smith says in the

King Follett funeral discourse that God was once a man who lived on another planet.

We see in the Bible in Hosea 11 .9 where God specifically says I am God and not man. The Holy One in the midst of thee.

We see all throughout the Old Testament a variance, a difference between the

God of the Bible and the God that is presented by the Mormon church. Mike you had. Good afternoon

Joe. Mike Munoz. You need to understand that in a sense you have entered into the middle of a movie so to speak.

Mormonism in a sense claims the Bible as one of its works but then when the

Bible disagrees with the other standard works the Mormon wants to say that the Bible is not true.

So what you need to understand is the question that you are asking is a valid question and you know it deserves an answer and I will give you the quick answer here in just a second.

But the point is as far as the Mormon is concerned he sees a certain amount of authority in the

Bible and what we want to make clear today is what the Bible says of God that he is one, that he is eternal, that he is non -changeable, that we are of a completely different nature than he is not what the

Mormon says about God. Now as far as the proof of the Bible and unfortunately we are not going to be able to delve into this very far because it is not the topic of the show.

And Joe can I ask you just a question? Can you hold on through the break? We have got a break coming up here in just a moment. Would that be all right?

Yeah. Just let me slip into my long johns and I will be with you. Okay. And we are talking with Joe and we are talking about the

Mormon church and the Mormon concept of God. We will be right back. And we are back.

You are listening to the Dividing Line radio broadcast. My name is Rich Pierce sitting in for James White over the next three weeks.

We are talking about the Mormon church. We are focusing on who God is. We were talking with Joe who unfortunately apparently had to leave.

He couldn't stay with us but Mike you were in the middle of as I interrupted you talking about God.

Actually I was talking about the proof of the scriptures and again this is going to be the short version but you never know I might run into Joe again.

Christians believe that the Bible is the word of God based on the claim of the Bible. Christians also believe that the

Bible is self -authenticating again based on the claim of the Bible and the claim is simple. Reject the

Bible and you can't make sense out of anything. You can't make sense out of human dignity. You can't make sense out of ethics, out of logic, out of science.

That is an extremely challenging claim and Christians believe that the

Bible can in fact make sense out of these things and reject it you can't do it. That is the proof of the Bible. And I might say that the single most important subject that we could discuss being

Christians being Biblical Christians discussing with Mormons is the doctrine of God. It is really the starting point for any witnessing situation that we would have or at least it ought to be the starting point.

Now I don't believe that it makes good sense to spend a great deal of time arguing about various subjects with our Mormon friends like creation, salvation, the image and likeness of man, deification, law, grace, authority of scripture, etc.,

etc., etc. But I would assert that to have a correct understanding of such topics like these and others that we must first understand the nature of God.

See if a person has the wrong starting point on who God is then we are going to end up in the wrong place as well. And if I were a

Christian typically if I begin a conversation with a Mormon on a particular subject like say image and likeness

I am going to look for the first opportunity to introduce my Mormon friend to the

God of the Bible. I want to begin by contrasting the God of the Bible with the God of Mormonism.

That has got to be our ultimate starting point. Most Mormons I would assert are ignorant and I don't mean that in a pejorative sense.

I just mean they are ignorant of the fact that they do not worship the God of the Bible. They do not worship the God of Mormonism.

The God of Mormonism is not the God of the Bible. And I would even go so far as to say that the only thing that the

God of the Bible has in common with the God of Mormonism is the spelling of the word

G -O -D. And that is how radical the differences really are between the God of Mormonism and the

God of the Bible. And our Mormon friends, and that is what we need to emphasize, they are our friends. We don't hate these people.

We don't have the option to hate them. We love them. God has commanded us to love our enemies and they are not our enemies.

He has commanded us to love our neighbors and they definitely are our neighbors. And we love them and that is what brings us in here today and that is what sends us out on the streets to share the truth with these people.

The first act of love is to tell them they are in error and they need to see the truth. And that is why we are here.

And I think it is important to understand that foundational to Biblical theology is monotheism.

That there is one and only one God. Deuteronomy 6 .4 is known to the

Orthodox Jew as the Shema. And Deuteronomy 6 .4 is this is recited on a daily basis with their prayers and I will read you the

English translation. It says, Hear O Israel. Jehovah is our God. Jehovah is one.

And the point of that passage, the Hebrew word used there translated one emphasizes not only the singularity of God but his utter uniqueness.

His utter being one of a kind and that is in stark contradiction from what you have heard us tell you about Mormon theology and again we are not trying to build a straw man.

We have quoted from Mormon sources to let you understand that Mormons believe something completely different about God than Christians do.

And that is ultimately here as we wrap up the show and really the fastest section of the show this time seems to go by really fast but we need to establish what the

Christian view of God from a Biblical basis is and that is what we are going to do here.

One of the things that the fact that there is only one true God we are really going to emphasize is for instance from Isaiah 44 verses six and eight.

Now I'm using a King James because that is what the Mormon church accepts and I consider it to be a viable excellent translation for its day.

Unfortunately it is a little bit difficult for someone of our vernacular in this day and time to understand but that is the only issue and that is why modern versions exist in order to make things a little easier to understand but in Isaiah 44 verse six it says thus saith the

Lord the King of Israel. Now folks I want you to understand something. When you are looking at this passage there are many passages in the

Old Testament like this talking about God and you see the term LORD. Now it is in all caps.

The first letter the L is a little bit larger than the other ones but they are all in capital letters.

That is the term Yahweh. That is the personal name for God. Or as Martin Luther gave us the term

Jehovah. That is how he pronounced it. Not Yahweh he pronounced it Jehovah simply in the linguistic differences between German and English but thus saith the

Yahweh the King of Israel and his Redeemer the Yahweh of hosts

I am the first and I am the last and beside me there is no

God. Now when you see that term God with capital G on it that is the term

Elohim. So understand that the Lord is saying Yahweh is saying that he is the first and he is the last and beside me there is no

Elohim. Now in verse eight he says just following that fear ye not neither be afraid have

I not told thee from that time and have declared it you are even my witnesses is there a

Elohim besides me is there a God beside me yea there is no Elohim there is no

God and here is the kicker I know not any.

Now the Mormon is even going to agree with us that God has all knowledge and if God has all knowledge how is it that anyone can come along and say that there is all these other out there besides Jehovah besides Yahweh and he doesn't even know about them?

If he has all knowledge he would know that they exist wouldn't he? Isaiah 43 .10

is the most common passage that we cite. Ye are my witnesses saith the Lord and my servant whom

I have chosen that ye may know and believe me and understand that I am he before me there was no

God for him neither shall there be after me I even I am the Lord and beside me there is no

Savior. And so monotheism we can go all throughout the

Old Testament but monotheism is foundational to understanding the

Christian doctrine of God. Monotheism is essential and that is what we are talking about the essentials of the faith.

What about another attribute of God that we could spend much time on which we don't have very much of is the independence of God or the uniqueness or the assayity of God.

Mike? The assayity of God is the doctrine that God does not change. Malachi 2 .6

I am the Lord your God I do not change. You see in the God of the Bible there is no progression.

There is none of this eternal progression. There is none of this once being a man then becoming God. Another point of fact is that the

God of the Bible is extremely holy. Absolutely pure.

Now that can't be said of any man. Yeah and the thing is Orson Pratt who was a contemporary of Joseph Smith's and Brigham Young's I am just going to capitalize it here in the seer on page twenty three.

His understanding of what Joseph Smith was teaching he actually drew the conclusion that God was a redeemed man from that other planet that he lived on.

In other words God was once a sinner and our God, Christian God is holy.

Holy. Absolutely in fact and I am going to paraphrase this a little bit for time but in Isaiah chapter six the prophet

Isaiah has a vision encounter with God and as he sees God exalted and sitting on the throne the angels are flying around God and this is what the angels say holy holy holy is the

Lord God of hosts. The whole earth is full of his glory. The temple shook. The first reaction of Isaiah was woe am

I or I am undone. I am a man of unclean lips. Isaiah immediately recognized his sin in contrast to a holy righteous pure God.

Folks I want to share with you before we close the show here that we have and Mike is going to share quickly a creed from the

Christian church as well but we've got what's called the Christian information system. If you'd like to know more about the subjects that we cover at Alpha Omega Ministries you can call the

Christian information system at 602 -973 -4602.

We've got pre -recorded messages on there. We've got the false prophecies, some of the false prophecies of Joseph Smith. We've got this subject.

There's even a message on there called Are Christians Mormons? And Mike if you would share with us quickly a

Christian creed. Right and this is the 1689 Baptist confession of faith. There is but one and only one living and true

God. He is self -existent and infinite in his being and his perfections. None but he can comprehend or understand his essence.

He is pure spirit, invisible and without body parts or the changeable feelings of men.

He alone possesses immortality and dwells amid the light insufferably bright to mortal man. He never changes.

He is great beyond all of our conceptions, eternal, incomprehensible, almighty and infinite. He is most holy, wise, free and absolute.

All that he does is the outworking of his changeless righteous will and for his own glory. He is most loving, gracious, merciful and compassionate.

He abounds in goodness and truth. He forgives iniquity, transgression and sin. He rewards those who seek him diligently but he hates sin.

He will not overlook guilt or spare the guilty and he is perfectly just in executing his judgment. Amen.

Well thank you for tuning in to The Dividing Line today. My name is Rich Pierce. See you next week.

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