Witnessing to Mormons: Monotheism (part 1 of 3)

Alpha and Omega Ministries presents the Dividing Line radio broadcast. The Apostle Peter commanded all Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give this answer with gentleness and reverence.

Your host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha and Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, you can call now by dialing 508 -0960. That's 508 -0960.

The Mormon Church and the Question of Christian Identity

And now, with today's topic, here's James White. And good afternoon and welcome to The Dividing Line. My name is Rich Pierce and I am your substitute host while Dr. James White is out gallivanting around the state of New York.

Currently he's up on Long Island and it's my understanding that he did something that I guess 10 years ago, if you'd have told me and James that we would be doing something like this, it would have blown our minds.

He is speaking today at the Worldwide Church of God. This was once a cult. And through God's opening the doors and hearts of the leaders of that organization, he brought them together with Hank Hanegraaff and they sought out his counsel to become Orthodox and to repent of their heresy and to become into the fold of the Bible-believing Christian churches.

And this just goes to show that God can open these kinds of doors. This goes to show that it's not always impossible to reach the groups that we feel are the hardest to reach and potentially even impossible to reach.

And so please pray for him as he does that and as he is going around New York preaching at so many different churches. They have a schedule. If you look up on our internet website you just go, wow how can one man do all these things?

But this is the man we have leading our organization and we appreciate him greatly. Today we're going to be talking about the Mormon Church. Joining me today is to my left Mr. Sean Hahn. He is a member of Alpha Omega Ministries, has gone with us several times witnessing on the front lines out in Mesa, Arizona at the LDS Temple out there as well as up in Salt Lake City.

He has taught a Christian training class at his church on how to witness to Mormons. Welcome to the dividing line Sean.

Thank you. It is good to be here. It's a pleasure.

And also once again with us is Mike Munoz. Mike has taught Bible studies at his church as well as he is one of those guys I call a bookworm. Mike is always diving into some new theological work that somebody has put out and he is just absolutely fascinated with it.

Welcome back to the dividing line Mike.

Thank you. Excited to be here.

Okay. Well our topic in the next three weeks is to ask the question are Christians Mormons or actually where that comes from is something that we run into all the time when we are out witnessing in Mesa or in Salt Lake City.

When somebody walks up to us and they ask the question well do you believe that we are Christians? Mormons are Christians. They are just as Christian as anybody else after all. The name of Jesus Christ is right there in the name of our church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Well we like to turn that around a little bit and ask the question well are Christians Mormons? The redundant or the rhetorical question there is that well you know if we are just a different denomination we believe the basic same things then can any Christian become a Mormon and not have to overhaul their theology, not have to do a major rework on what they believe?

Later in this broadcast I am going to read something to you that is from our Christian information system and it is a message entitled Are Christians Mormons? And I think it is going to bring home the message loud and clear.

Anyway perhaps you are not that familiar with the Mormon church. Perhaps you have some Mormon neighbors and you are thinking these guys are just you know they are just Christians like anybody else and they believe pretty much the same thing.

They are just a little bit more strict about things. They don't drink alcohol. They don't drink coffee. They live a clean life. Their missionaries go door to door. They come by the house every now and then wearing the nice clean cut haircut and the white shirts and the dark ties and they ride bicycles and they lead a life for two years of pretty much kind of self-denial and sacrifice as they go around their mission.

These are dedicated young men. No question about it. But perhaps that is pretty much all you know of the Mormon church. Well just to give you a brief introduction to Mormonism is first of all as the Mormon church tells the story in Joseph Smith history this being the 1838 account Joseph Smith had been going around and he had been well very interested in the religion, the religious uprising that was going on in his area.

There was a great deal of revival going on amongst Baptists, amongst Presbyterians, amongst all the different groups in the area in upstate New York and he was rather fascinated by that. Well he went to some of these revivals where they were interdenominational revivals.

You know the old tent meetings as we hear it. He listened to them preaching and he listened to people discussing religion in the hallways or outside of the tent or wherever you may have that, however you can picture that and he found the discussions rather confusing and eventually he became so frustrated that he just felt that he needed to pray.

He was reading James 1 .5 where it says if any of you lack wisdom let him ask of God and he went out into a grove of trees nearby his home and he began to pray and he got down on his knees. Long story short he had a vision from God.

He had a vision from God whereas he tells in his, and I emphasize this in his 1838 version of the story, he says that he had a direct visit from God the Father and his son Jesus Christ and he describes them as being two separate and distinct personages and having two different bodies.

The interesting thing is in Joseph Smith history he says when he asks the personages which church should he join, which one's right? They tell him none of them are.

None of them.

In fact God the Father as he puts it tells him that all their creeds are an abomination in his sight and all their professors are corrupt. That is the very cornerstone of the Mormon Church and that's why it had to start according to the Mormon Church.

They founded eventually a church on April 6, 1830 with eight members and they started off by calling it the Church of Christ. Eventually it was entitled the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and Sean Hahn is here with us.

He's got some statistics for us that I think really give us an impact on what kind of group, the size that it has grown to. Sean why don't you share some things with us there.

It's amazing to realize that the church began in 1830 with just six members on April 6 and now currently published on their website their total membership is 10 ,354 ,241.

Wow that's a lot of people. That's a huge growth. So it wasn't eight like I said it was six.

Correct six members in April 30. A couple other quick statistics. The converts baptized during 1998 on their website 299 ,134 and furthermore they have a total of 57 ,853 guys and gals dressed in white shirts pedaling bicycles around.

Full time missionaries. 57 ,853 full time missionaries.

Wow that you know folks the thing you have to keep in mind is and I want to talk for a moment here to the Bible believing Christian out there. You're an evangelical and you believe that we need to share the gospel with people but the question I have for you is do you view yourself as a missionary.

Do you see the back door step the front door step of your home as a mission field. The question that I have for you is are you going to church and you're giving to your church and you're supporting your church and in your mind evangelism is taking place through that as your monies go to missionaries that are sent out around the world and that's a good thing.

We need to be doing that. We are called to do that no question about it. But my contention is this and this is a contention of Alpha Omega Ministries as we do the work we do evangelizing Mormons Jehovah's Witnesses and Roman Catholics.

One of the things we emphasize is the fact that right here in the good old USA we're failing our calling. We're failing to take the word of God to the people that are right next door to us and that's easy to do and really what boils down to a politically correct society that we've been raised in.

You know Richard right on. It's interesting all three of us have heard statistics from different sources that the largest number of converts are actually coming out of Baptist denominations. I think you shared a statistic earlier this week about was it 16 to 1.

No actually this was a statistic that I had heard about 10 12 years ago and that it was 24 to 1 was the conversion ratio from Baptist becoming Mormons. 24 for every one Mormon that became a Baptist and that really just does illustrate that we are losing ground here.

We're losing the ground but then again back to the very heart and soul of our subject here. Is there ground to lose? Aren't these people just maybe crossing over to different denominational lines? Are they just going from one church to another where God would lead them and have them be?

Well I'm going to read some quotes for you folks today and we're going to discuss these quotes as we go along through the hour and I think that they might illustrate for you the radical difference between biblical Christianity and Mormonism.

The one thing I want to challenge the Mormon folks who might be listening out there right now. 5080960 we want to talk with you. We would like to hear from you. If you have a differing opinion. If you have a dissenting opinion.

You don't agree with what we're saying today. We invite you to give us a call. We would like to talk with you and the thing I want to emphasize to you is we don't want to have a big old argument. We're not here to get in anybody's face.

We're not here to just make a lot of trouble and a lot of noise. We genuinely care about your soul. We genuinely want to know about your situation. We want to have some dialogue with you and we don't want to just get into a big old catfight here.

But I'm going to quote from what is the cornerstone and again this week we're going to be focusing on who God is as the Mormon Church teaches in contrast to who God is as the Bible teaches and we want to discuss that.

Maybe there is no difference. But I think as I start reading some things here you might consider that differently and consider that there is some differences. From the King Follett funeral discourse. Now understand folks this is from Joseph Smith.

I believe the date is approximately 1844 and the background here if you get the context of what's going on and I'm going to take an excerpt from the King Follett funeral discourse. If you pick up Joseph Smith history or teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith by Joseph Fielding Smith.

You're going to find this in and around from like pages 340 through 370. I didn't write that exactly down what those page numbers were but it's lengthy. It's a fairly lengthy discussion or sermon by Joseph Smith.

And you might add Rich that this sermon was it's a funeral sermon. It was preached for a gentleman who was an elder in the Mormon Church to approximately 20 ,000 Mormons.

Yeah.

But this particular sermon happens to be pivotal in the understanding of Mormonism in their view of God as it resides today. Let me read this for you. God himself was once a man as we are now and is an exalted man and sits enthroned in yonder heavens.

That is the great secret. I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and suppose that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil so that you may see it is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another and that he was once a man like us.

Yea that God himself the father of us all dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did and I will show it from the Bible. Here then is eternal life to know the only wise and true God and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves and to be kings and priests to God the same as all gods have done before you namely by going from one small degree to another and from a small capacity to a great one and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings and to sit in glory as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power to inherit the same power, the same glory and the same exaltation until you arrive at the station of a God and ascend to the throne of eternal power the same as those who have gone before.

Listen to this one. The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal with God himself. Now as I consider the biblical presentation of God and who God is that's a little bit different. Guys what do you think?

It's quite a bit different. In fact just backing up just a little bit and I think it's necessary to understand this. Joseph Smith was extremely concerned that his people understand the character of God and we as Christians would say the same thing.

It's extremely important. I remember it was about a year ago and it was out in Mesa during the Easter pageant and I was talking to a high school student a young man from the Mormon faith and the veins in his neck the redness of his face when I explained to him that we actually believe in two different gods.

And he was taken aback at that.

He was like what do you mean? I believe in the God of the Bible. How can we believe in two different gods? And I think what you just read and we're going to get into it throughout the hour is if that is the Mormon view of God then I personally would have a hard time being a Mormon.

I don't know that I would be accepted because that's not my view of God.

But also when you turn to the pages of the Old Testament and the New Testament you're confronted with passages like Hosea 11, 9 it says for I am God and not a man. Another one is found in Psalm 50 verse 21.

You thought I was just like you. And God says I will reprove you and state the case in order before your eyes. Or another excellent one Numbers 23, 19. God is not a man that he should lie nor the son of man that he should repent.

And on and on and on.

The other thing as we get into the issue here is that Joseph Smith in this sermon outright contradicts the Christian doctrine of the Trinity. And you can read the Book of Mormon and the interesting thing is that up to this point or somewhere along the lines in his evolution of theology he was monotheistic.

He believed in one true God. His depiction in the Book of Mormon of God is modalistic at best but it does reflect the way a young man who is listening to Christian preachers try to or preach about the Trinity.

It basically gives off a rote understanding of the Trinity. And that's when you consider the fact that the Book of Mormon was published prior to 1830. You don't see polytheism in the Book of Mormon do you guys?

Not at all.

In fact I'll give you one example in 2 Nephi chapter 31 verse 21. And I quote. And now behold my beloved brethren this is the way and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God.

And now behold this. This is the doctrine of Christ and the only and true doctrine of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost which is one God without end.

Amen.

Now that's difficult because when you're discussing this with some of the young Mormon missionaries they'll come to your house and they'll show you this. And you know it is a contradiction. And I would agree Joseph Smith his theology certainly did develop.

Yeah and if you open the beginning of the Book of Mormon and you read the witnesses the three witnesses that are there. The testimony of Martin Harris, Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer in the front of the Book of Mormon it records them saying and the honor be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Ghost which is one God.

Amen.

So that's what they say and the Book of Mormon is clearly monotheistic in its presentation of God.

Go ahead Mike.

I was going to say absolutely and again just one more sample from the Book of Mormon in Moroni chapter 8 verse 18. For I know that God is not a partial God neither a changeable being. A complete contradiction than from what you heard in the King Follett discourses.

But he is an unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.

And yet just a few years after this Doctrine and Covenants which is really where the pivotal change in his concept of God changes as you start seeing for instance the 1838 account of the first vision.

He sees God the Father and Jesus Christ in separate bodies as separate and distinct persons and in Doctrine and Covenants section 130 verse 22. Now folks if you're out there and you've never really studied Mormonism at all you need to understand that Mormonism has what they call four standard works.

If you will the Mormon Scriptures. The first standard work of the Mormon Church is the Book of Mormon of course. And second to that is the Doctrine and Covenants and then third the Pearl of Great Price.

And I'm going to emphasize here Mormons don't get too upset with me right away here. I'm going to emphasize that those are co-equal in their understanding of Mormon doctrine. The fourth standard work and I'll explain why I separated that out is the Holy Bible.

The reason I separated it out is in their Articles of Faith the Mormon Church separates it because on that particular book they put the caveat in as much as it is translated correctly. So essentially when it comes down to talking to the average Mormon on the street and you get into a direct contradiction in the Bible or from the Bible to Mormon doctrine that's when they come up with well that must not have been translated correctly.

And so it kind of behooves us to have some understanding of the original languages then when we're talking to Mormons and be able to communicate with them in such a way that we can bring out what the original language has to say and be able to expose the fact that they're just simply making an excuse for a direct contradiction in terminology.

Now in Doctrine and Covenants section 130 verse 22 it says that the Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's. The Son also but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones but is a personage of spirit were it not so the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

Now this is pivotal the scriptural understanding of God the Father of Jesus Christ and that they have bodies of flesh and bones as tangible as man's. Now why the Holy Ghost doesn't have one I don't know and I want to briefly in the next five minutes or so go over for you what is called the Law of Eternal Progression.

And again if you're looking for direct quotations from authoritative sources we're really working from the King Follett funeral discourse. This is a foundational understanding of Doctrine and Covenants section 130 verse 22 as well as other Mormon scriptures that Joseph Smith is expanding on.

And on page 349 he begins talking about a council of the gods. I'm not going to read it for you I'm just going to describe for you what is the Law of Eternal Progression. Now for the Christian we read the Holy Bible we understand the person of God to be the eternal thing if you will in all existence.

When we think about God that is the thing that is the one being who is the beginning of everything. He is the constant in the universe. Well in Mormonism that's not true. And again folks I want to invite Mormons to give us a call.

We did have one gentleman call in and he was on the phone for a few seconds and then I read the King Follett funeral discourse and he decided he thought better of it. But we do honestly want to talk with you if you're a Mormon please give us a call at 508 -0960.

We do want to talk to you today. But the Law of Eternal Progression the eternal thing in Mormon thought is matter. Matter has always existed. Matter always will exist. And from that matter we get intelligences.

And those intelligences start up and there's spirit beings and then there are I want to just kind of cut to the chase those spirit beings are begotten by heavenly gods. Well how do they become gods? Well you're going to understand this is going to come full circle as I begin to describe it out.

The god procreates or can populate a planet by giving his offspring bodies of flesh and bones. He goes and as it were organizes that planet. He takes the matter. He organizes it and starts that planet.

He then can populate that planet with his offspring. And so what we have is what's called the pre-existence. Those spirit beings those spirit children are existing in a pre-existence. Then when they come to earth in physical bodies they are going through what's called the mortal probation.

That's what we're all going through here on earth according to the Mormon church. We're all going through a mortal probation. Now ultimately those who become Mormons those who go through the temple ceremonies those who become if you will the highest echelon of Mormonism and they take that on they are married in the temple they need to go through all the temple ordinances they need to be priests etc. etc.

They have the capacity to actually become gods after this life. And so when Joseph Smith talks about how God dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did he can say that because God the father of this planet had to go through the law of eternal progression on that planet.

And so as he progresses through that and he goes through that he became a god and then came here organized this planet and started begetting spirit children came down and there's some dispute within Mormon groups as to how the bodies of flesh and bones came about.

I'll touch on it briefly and it's not I want to emphasize to Mormon listeners this is not what the church and average Mormons believe today but Brigham Young took that concept and he believed that Adam was God.

He believed that God the father actually had to come down here and start the physical race himself in order for that to begin the population expansion if you will. But that's not what's taught today so there's kind of some disagreement about that but ultimately.

Those.

The rest of us who are not Mormons can go to potentially three different levels of heaven. The Mormon who becomes a god goes to what they call the celestial kingdom and becomes a god. There are three different levels within the celestial kingdom for instance if I don't I got married last year first time 37 and I used to joke about the fact that if I were a Mormon and I had been single my entire life I couldn't become a god because I had to be married in the temple as a requirement to become a god.

So there are angels in that level as well and those angels serve the gods in the celestial kingdom. Now the other level is called the terrestrial level and the lower level below that is the telestial level.

Now ultimately when it comes right down to it those of us who are non-Mormons we haven't been Mormon we haven't gone through that process. I just looked at the clock and realized that it is time for us to take a break.

I'm going to continue on talking about the law of eternal progression when we come back. Again 5080960 we invite your calls.

1 Peter 3 .15 But sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you yet with gentleness and reverence.

Alpha and Omega Ministries presents the Dividing Line radio broadcast. The Apostle Peter commanded all Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us yet to give this answer with gentleness.

And reverence. Your host is.

Dr. James White Director of Alpha and Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White you can call now by dialing 5080960 that's 5080960 and now with today's topic here's James White.

The Law of Eternal Progression and Mormon Exaltation

And welcome back to the second half of the Dividing Line radio broadcast. My name is Rich Pierce. I'm the president of Alpha and Omega Ministries and I'm sitting in for James over the next three weeks and with me today are Sean Hahn and Mike Munoz we're discussing the Mormon concept of God and I was in mid-sentence actually when I realized we needed to take a break in the last half hour but you know just quickly to wrap up because I want to focus on who God is today with our discussion and one of the things I want to get at is that in the law of eternal progression it is foundational to understanding how God came to be God.

The rest of us the non-Mormons have a potential we are going to go to a place that they call spirit prison. We have the potential to go to any one of the levels of heaven depending on who you talk to based on what they do in their baptismal work etc.

That's why they get into the genealogy so much but ultimately the bottom line is when we go through the mortal probation here we have the potential to become gods coming out the other side and that's how God came to be God in Mormon thought.

Now the other thing is that Joseph Smith this is a direct denial if you will of the Trinity he says in teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith on page 370. I have always declared God to be a distinct personage Jesus Christ to be a separate and distinct personage from God the Father and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a.

Spirit.

These constitute three distinct personages and three gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament lo and behold we have three gods anyhow and they are plural and who can contradict it? One of the things I want to go after here is we have callers online here.

We have Robert in Phoenix. Let's see if I can bring you online.

Robert.

Hello sir.

How are you today?

Good Dr. White.

Actually no I want to correct you here. My name is Rich Pierce. Dr. White is out of town this week so I'm kind of filling in for him but your question.

Okay I am not a Mormon and I know that you stated you wanted to limit your.

Discussion to.

The whole idea of the question of God. I'm still confused. So they have a physical death, they resurrect as a god somewhere literally and then they venture out?

Well again we go into the concept that there is this eternal progression that's going on and we start from mere nothingness, we proceed to spirit beings, we go through a mortal progression and we have the potential in Mormon thought to actually go to a point where we can become gods.

And it's actually Robert it's a good question but your exaltation is dependent upon, if you're a Mormon. And Mormon thought is dependent upon what you did in this life. How you lived your life in obedience to the laws and the ordinances found in Mormon.

Scripture.

You are not a Mormon.

Whole idea isn't for you then? You were perishing in this prison?

No, you would wind up in where they call spirit prison and you get a second chance to hear the gospel. And in that second chance essentially angels or messengers are sent down into the spirit prison to preach the Mormon gospel to you and then you can accept or reject the Mormon gospel but you don't have the ability to become a god there.

You can't become a.

Be with whoever your relative was that baptized in your place. They go through baptisms, proxy baptisms and went through the temple ceremonies for you as well in your behalf. But that's kind of up for dispute and that kind of goes along.

We do have some other callers so thank you for your call today.

Robert.

Line two we've got Chris in Peoria. Go ahead Chris.

Hi Rich. My question is would you discuss the role of genealogy and how it relates to progression and also what is the significance of blessings?

You're going to need to be a little more specific. Those are kind of broad topics especially the significance of blessings. I'm not real sure what you mean by that.

When I was a young bestowed upon a Mormon brother. What does that mean? I mean we know what it is within our

You're talking like the patriarchal blessing?

Correct.

Okay. That's a very good point although that kind of stems more over into the issue of the priesthood and becoming a priest, the Aaronic priesthood and that they are if you will given a blessing, a patriarchal blessing and they are at that point in time given or told what tribe.

They are actually kind of spiritually grafted into the Hebrew 12 tribes and in our experience it has been more the tribe of Ephraim or Manasseh that they are given to and that gets into a whole other issue of the priesthood and the issues behind the priesthood and the fact that the Aaronic priesthood can only be held by someone of the Levitical line and who is an Aaronic priest.

They have to be of the family of Aaron as well but I'm not real sure that that's more part and parcel of the mortal probation and becoming.

There.

We can get into specifics and we can go on for hours and unfortunately we have limited time today. What was your first question again?

The role of genealogy.

Okay.

Yeah.

The role of genealogy has to do with like I was talking about the becoming the evangelism. Let me use that as a term here as a catalyst. They're talking about evangelism. Evangelizing the dead essentially is what they are doing.

They are reclaiming the dead who are stuck down there in spirit prison and it's really on their shoulders to redeem them and that's why they are going through that process. Again thank you for your call today Chris and we are going to move along to Joe on line three.

Joe can you hear me?

Yes I can.

Okay and your question sir?

Well it's not a question but a comment. You speak of well I am a Mormon and you speak of our religion and I'm just wondering. You are saying a lot of negative things but you say nothing of the positive things.

Well let me ask you a question here. Do you consider the King Follett funeral discourse a negative thing?

Can you repeat that?

Do you consider Joseph Smith's King Follett funeral discourse a negative thing?

No but the light you put it in I consider it to be a negative light. When I speak of our religion I speak I think in terms of the strong family values that we instill. The good things that we.

Do.

But we are trying to focus and we are not denying any of that. Let me explain something.

To you.

I've been doing this since 1922 and I've been. And I have talked with hundreds of Mormon folks and I want to emphasize to everybody hearing my voice right now that the folks that I have talked to are the nicest folks.

They do a lot of great.

Work.

They help people tremendously and they are very sincere. There is just no question in my mind as to the sincerity.

Let me ask you this. What is it that you you have to make your beliefs stronger than mine? How can you say as a matter of fact that the King James Version of the Bible should be taken more seriously than say my praying to a salamander?

I'm not sure what you mean about praying to a salamander but the issue of how we got the Bible does become a major point in discussing the our faith with the Mormon folks and how we got the Bible and how it came through and was handed down to us and how it was transmitted to us and understanding what it really has to say.