Cultish: An Introductory Overview of the Hebrew Roots Movement, Pt. 1

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Cultish: An Introductory Overview of the Hebrew Roots Movement, Pt. 2

00:00

Alright, welcome back ladies and gentlemen to cultish entering the kingdom of the cults. My name is

00:05

Jeremiah Roberts I'm one of the co -hosts here. I am joined as always by Andrew super sleuth of the show sleuthing around here

00:14

Sleuthing around up there. I should say up in Harriman Harriman, Utah. You're starting to show a little bit of The the very beginning the birth pangs of the new of the new beginning you're making all things new you finally you've got some stubble

00:28

You're not exactly a bear. You're not exactly a Bare -faced anymore as far as your face is concerned.

00:34

So that that is encouraging I hope to see more growth as we grow along into next year. Anyways, man, how are you doing?

00:40

How's everything going up in Utah? Hey things have been going man the church plants hitting off and we're just doing things dude excited for our first Christmas service and Excited for this podcast today

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Actually because we have Andrew Schumacher with us and he is very near and dear to my heart because he was

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With us during the beginning of our church plants out here in Utah Andrew. How are you doing, brother? I'm doing real.

01:03

Well, it's a it's good to see you again Excellent. Excellent, man. So we brought you on just because you know, there are a lot of different groups that we do want to cover and You know, there is a lot that goes into a podcast and there's been certain times

01:20

We've just been waiting for the right conversation to kind of maybe even be a catalyst for further conversation So what we are going to be talking about today is the

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Hebrew roots Movement and in all transparency, I'm not someone who's too knowledgeable on the subject

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I do know it's something it's a growing movement that has a it has a lot of momentum behind it

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I can just tell just from the times that we've just posted asking questions really kind of almost like a polling our audience just about what what's a

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Level -headed way to address this and as soon as I think the first post we did it was around 700 800 comments and Just because we have the name cult issue.

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It was like people are just kind of up and antsy about it And so I'm excited to unpack that today and you have some experience behind that So yeah, let's just go ahead and jump into what just tell them and just a little bit about yourself

02:12

And what is it about you that just tell them about what allowed you to start taking interest in the

02:19

Hebrew roots movement? Let's just let's just jump into that yeah, um, so Like yeah, like said, my name is

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Andrew Schumacher. I run a Small apologetics ministry called beginning of wisdom.

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You can find on YouTube. I'm on Twitter Facebook all that and I have for the last few years been

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You know, I work on different things, but I I've been real focused on this movement and that's largely been because of a couple of connections one was

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My wife had some people she met online who were into it and were

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You know inviting her to check out various ministries or people and videos and things like that and Another was a friend of mine

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That I just, you know had known and who moved away, but then reached out on on Facebook and was saying hey

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I have a like a women's Bible study or something like that and there's someone in there that's kind of Endorsing, you know going back to the you know, the laws in the

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Old Testament Regarding like dietary laws feast days things like that and was wondering, you know what

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I thought about it And so that that's what kind of got me just Investigating it at for for starters and then as I did

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I just realized there's just hardly anything out there that you know, lots of people lots of big ministries are talking about Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses and and Doing a poll, you know, it's it's very easy to find good apologetic material on those move

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You know those groups, but this was one that I couldn't find very much And so I realized there was there just seemed to be a real need

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So I just started studying it hard and went back and read the Torah and you know all that stuff to just kind of get an idea of where they're coming from and You know a handle on on the whole all the theology of it.

04:25

Gotcha. Gotcha. I appreciate it I also I appreciate you sharing that and So maybe we could just kind of get into what we always want to try and do is just kind of give

04:35

Give people just a basic primer on defining terms because even when I was mentioning to our producer

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Gabe I shout out to Gabe and all that he does for us, but we just We just did a series on the

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Hebrew Israelites and now we're doing something on the Hebrew roots And he's like, well, how's that different?

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And so I was like, hmm, that's a good question I know both of them sort of have similarities in the sense that they see a

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Significance to how they interpret the Hebrew language. So the only thing I've been able to kind of Decipher just from the comments.

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I've seen on our page and again I'm sure there are people involved in this who would be my brothers and sisters in the

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Lord and it would just be but what I do see usually there is a

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Significance they put upon themselves with how they pronounce the name of God I've seen a significance in regards to how they observe certain feasts and Even I forget the name of it

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But it's almost sort of this it's on the hem of a shirt or it's almost like a belt that has seat

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What is it called that seat seat? Tassels. Yeah. Yeah, so I had someone who

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Was like you came into church and was wearing he's visiting, you know Along with his family and and I saw that and I didn't it was kind of one of those things where it's like you see

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Something but you don't want to say anything because you feel like you'll feel like awkward So I asked someone else it was a friend of his

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I said, what is that? He's wearing they're explaining it. So I just walked away not not in any way making fun or like mocking or anything of nature

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I just thought that's that's interesting. That's different and I had to some point I would like to be able understand like what is the appeal of doing that?

06:21

So yeah, so I'm just generally curious could you so go ahead and just give us just a general overview of like What are they?

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What are some of the tenets that they hold to as far as practices and where did this stem from? Yeah Right and and yeah, it's it's funny you say that that you met met someone at church, right and and that's kind of a a common thing

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People in within their churches will sometimes encounter folks or sometimes it'll be online

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I know in our personal friends group we have you know outside of our church We we have quite a few people we know who are are into this

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Torah observance and that kind of thing. So it's it's very hard to give a very precise definition

07:06

It's there like you said, there are some similarities with Hebrew Hebrew Israelites And in in different things that they do and One of the one of those similarities is that you can't define them all with a single doctrinal statement because it's it's very decentralized but There there's lots of terms that that they'll go by sometimes

07:30

They don't like any of them, but you know, you've heard obviously Hebrew roots. He break roots Torah observance some will use the term

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Messianic, but they'll distinguish from Messianic Judaism Or some of them will just adopt that term or they might say

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Messianic Christianity You know, or maybe just Torah movement. I mean, these are all just kind of mixing these things together

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There's a lot of different Titles, I mean you could you could write a book just listing them

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But the thing that's that I think is important in this conversation is to just simply acknowledge that and even though We're using you know,

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Hebrew roots is just the most Well known among people who aren't part of the movement that kind of describes things about the movement

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And so if if a person listening doesn't think you know Oh, I'm not Hebrew roots because I'm not like this or that doctrine that those people who claim that title are

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Great, you know, that's fine. You use your type use whatever label you like the the important thing is that we're we're looking at substance and the real substance of it is it is comes down to promotion of observance of the

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Torah and specifically observance of Mostly, you know things that Christians or a lot of Christians have defined as ceremonial law things like, you know dietary laws eating kosher

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Observing seventh -day Sabbath observing the Levitical feasts things like tzitzit that kind of stuff is what is

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You know, they're they're focusing on that difference and they believe that Christianity has lost its way because it's not observing those things

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There's a lot of other doctrines that I'm sure we'll get into but that's sort of the main

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Distinguishing factor that I think is pretty much across the board Right, you know virtually universal when it comes to what we're talking about.

09:34

Okay. Hey Andrew just so far Do you have any thoughts or observations or questions? You want to ask them real quickly to continue to?

09:42

Rappel this discussion. Yeah, so thinking about like Hebrews It's it's kind of like it's it's trying to pin jello to a wall with like a nail

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Yes, right is um, is there like a common theme Andrew where it's like modern Christianity has almost been corrupted by pagan things

09:57

Oh, that's trying to get back to Something pure. Yeah Yeah, it's it's very common

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And and this is where You know where where we want to be very careful and in how we we discuss the the topic because Because there's it's very decentralized.

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There's also a wide range of beliefs within the movement and at one end of the spectrum, you've got people who are

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You know Explicit card -carrying so to speak Trinitarian Calvinist, you know, they they love the reformers and and all that But they also believe that we should be keeping these these particular

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Commandments the same way that that Israel that so so there's very little, you know, the differences

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They're important, but they're not I would say up to the level of heresy or you know

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Necessarily this is a cult because they believe you should not eat pork, you know, that's not something that we necessarily should divide over But as you continue to the other end of the spectrum, you've got folks that unabashedly

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Promote works righteousness that you are you have to include good works either to even get salvation or to keep your salvation virtually every

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Trinitarian heresy From the first century is represented among somebody in the in the movement somewhere and so you've got

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You've got a lot of variety Going on and so, you know, it's always the thing, you know, right cultish.

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Are we talking about a cult? Are you calling what I believe a cult? Yeah, I think not just right as you're being talked about well

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I think and now I think maybe that was some of because I and all honest if you go back to the original post that we did we

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Googled images and like I'm not sure this kept I like the image but it's not copper and it's hats It was just some image of some

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Hebrew lettering and I just basically all I says I had said hey We're interested and potentially opening doing a discussion on the

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Hebrew roots at some point Do you have any suggestions on what would be a fair and level -headed way to approach the subject?

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That was my question. But then there's all this angst and just just very

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I wouldn't say I would hostility But just I would say very passionate and I think and even even defensive and maybe it was just because our podcast

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Is called cultish and so maybe there is this sort of assumption that we're we're going to label it as a cult

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And so just big and again, I just want to reiterate just because our podcast is called cultish does not mean

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We're not trying to make any sort of emotionally charged accusation. We want to take any any sort of claim

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We always want to do that and maybe even the harp I would say just from what you're saying maybe maybe the heart behind it is pure because you know, the

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Bible says that we should be opposed to Syncretism with any aspect of paganism we should take every thought captive, you know, we need to Take down any sort of any sort of worldly wisdom that sets itself up against the knowledge of God and it talks about those things

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But then I guess the question would be like is This approach or this assumption that this message at some point was lost and now we need to restore it as an attempt to Separate ourselves from syncretism this observance of the laws now some catalysts to do so.

13:34

Okay. Well if that's the claim Well, let's take a look at what the claims are and let's let's definitely analyze it by Scripture for sure

13:40

I can definitely get that Yeah, yeah, is it is it safe to say to like? Essentially since it's a decentralized we could have people that follow

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Parts and beliefs of the Hebrew roots movement that could be going to your church, right and it's good to actually

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Be knowledgeable about what's going on to have conversations with people But it's also good to be knowledgeable because is there a danger

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Andrew you would say where you can entertain this When you have you know, like let's say the freedom in Christ to observe tradition

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But then creating tradition as external law for other people to follow and expecting them to follow it Is there a danger where people could fall into that trap in the

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Hebrew roots movement like they start off? Let's say, you know with just intentions of trying to do some feasts and things like that that were done

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You know in the Old Testament, but there could be a trap essentially where they could fall in pray to Using those traditions as extra biblical things placing them on others

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Yeah, I mean, I think there's there's a danger in any Bad theology or false false belief not that any bad theology you know takes one outside of the faith, but Any any bad theology has the potential to do so even something as simple as loving your mother or loving your child has the potential if it blows completely out of proportion to for you to make an idol of Another person and supplant

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Christ in your life like it is so anything is on that level is potentially difficult and or you know dangerous and From the testimonies that I've heard of people who've come out of the movement.

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It is It's it's the same kind of thing over and over, you know

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This this feeling that they felt, you know Like condemned and that they can never measure up.

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They can never be good enough, but everyone was telling them that they could Because you know the the law says you you know, the

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Bible says you can keep the law is an argument they make so yeah, there's there's definitely a a

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Danger to it and I have seen a lot of folks. I've seen one I've kind of followed his story personally

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Who went from? Just being you know promoting the Torah to denying that Paul is a true apostle to denying that Christ is the

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Messiah to denying the the whole Bible and You know, it's so it definitely happens now that's certainly not universal

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It just like loving your child is doesn't mean that you're gonna put them above Christ.

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So it's yeah anything that's false is going to be dangerous and that's the the hard part with the

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Hebrew Roots movement and with this is that It's a lack of understanding of the whole of Scripture.

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And so it's you know Artificially elevating one aspect of the commandments to where they ought not to be and that's that causes

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Problems and it's it's very easy to fall into if you're very faithful Usually the people who convert are people who are very devoted Religious people, you know, they're they're in churches and they're really

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Gung -ho about their faith and they see this as a way to Elevate their faith by going back and and doing doing these things

17:12

Okay, excellent. And then so just I believe we mentioned to in our initial conversation to pluner research

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That it is it is very decentralized So even in our analysis, even if we did all our research and we based it off this one particular group

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There probably would be a lot of P other different groups who say no, that's not an accurate representation and vice -versa and again, one of the most outspoken groups is a

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YouTube channel called 119 ministries and We're just going to mention them in passing because we're again

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We're just we're trying to do a general overview. And again, the reason why I said it's a very it's a group It's a movement that's very decentralized.

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In fact I believe our brother Mike winger has actually done some good analysis of 119 ministries in specifically and you can definitely check out his content over at Bible thinker and I shout to my chatted about him

18:04

Yeah, yeah shout to my winger. He did this. I hope to have him on again soon So yeah, I guess when maybe just from your research and understanding

18:12

How did this sort of you mentioned is very decentralized? Where did this kind of start or take off?

18:18

I think the first time I ever heard of this Really taking prominence was maybe

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Less than a decade ago You know, I think I had someone on Facebook. My friend made a joke about him going to some all -you -can -eat buffet about lobster or something like that and it was just somebody out of the blue who's talking about how that's an abomination to God and and then

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I Discoursing with him and I was just trying to make sense of his hermeneutic and then I saw his Facebook profile

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And then there was I think there is you know That the different print out a different pronunciation of like Yahshua or it was just this is different I mean these are this is all

18:57

Coming from somewhere and going somewhere. It was just hard to kind of put the pieces together but just from your understanding like is there kind of a general pinnacle point for where we can say this kind of the catalyst started

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Yeah, so it it is very difficult to Pin down exactly where everything

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Came from but I think there are some important moments. I suppose in in terms of history

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I think going if we if we start where we're at now and kind of work our way backwards The the movement really started to take off Really with the the age of the

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Internet. No question like a lot of of Things out there, you know with YouTube and and things where you can put your opinions out there for anyone to see and It's it's a lot more likely that that things will catch on so to speak

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So that's like a lot of the most recent growth comes from that But of course that the movement doesn't only go back, you know to the 90s, but that's really

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I think where it started to Explode where a lot of people know people, you know who are are into it

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I think that the in research in the history the the places that I found

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I Guess the there the sort of sources and and this is where some

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Some groups will diff want to differentiate themselves from others because they look at their own history and say well

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We came from over here. You came from over there. So we're not the same thing But if you know you're converging on the same theology then, you know, we're not talking about just one group right but You know, there there's kind of three big source movements that that kind of converge to I think to do this and and others have said this as well, but One is messianic

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Judaism, which is definitely not the same thing as as what we're talking about messianic

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Judaism is a belief system that says that the Jew that Jews ethnically

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Jewish people who believe in Jesus Feel they have been called by God to continue in the law and and observing all the ceremonial stuff

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But Gentiles don't have to because They you know

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Jews have messianic Jews have a specific Purpose in God's plan to to reach out to the other ethnic

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Jews and and so they're not they're trying they're hanging on to their Jewish Cultural heritage and all of that.

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So there's so that is a very different starting point than Hebrew roots, which says

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Everyone needs to keep the Torah. It's it's God's law for for all people but Messianic Judaism is sort of a place where the thinking and a lot of that stuff

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Comes from. So there there are actually lots and lots and lots and some say even a majority of the

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People who attend messianic synagogues are actually Gentiles, you know, they're not actually

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Jewish so There are lots of people there. So that's sort of one stream where people start out in that movement and then kind of thought well

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I don't agree that it's just for the Jews. I think it's for everybody and so that that kind of puts them in the mindset of Hebrew roots

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Another example or another place that things kind of got going is something called the sacred name movement which stress the

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Hebrew pronunciation of names. So they say say Yeshua instead of Jesus they say

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They either will will say Yahweh or some other pronunciation of the divine name of the

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Tetragrammaton Or maybe they won't and they'll just say the letters Yod Hiv Av Hey, and that that's how they say the divine name

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But they they believe and they'll say all of the apostles Hebrew names and things like that.

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So they think it's really important to to to do that and then another

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Probably the biggest influence theologically Was herbert armstrong's worldwide church of god and because he when he got going and he started back in the 30s and And all that but when he got going he believed in, you know, seventh day sabbath

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Celebrate all the levitical feasts don't celebrate christmas or easter. Those are pagan Follow the dietary restrictions he believed in something called british israelism that that europe was full of the the lost tribes of israel that has been

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You know Adapted into something called two house theology within the hebrew roots movement

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Um, which basically believes a lot of gentiles are are from the lost tribes 10 northern tribes of israel um, like I said before a lot of non -trinitarian theology

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Uh, but and that all sorts i've i've heard Unitarians i've heard modalists i've heard arians i've heard

24:10

Even some really interesting i've heard even some that that go with armstrong's view that says that the word god means family and that it's it's kind of a god family thing so you can say jesus is god because he's the son of god, but it's like a family thing not a

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You know one god thing um and uh, they also also

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Almost i've heard this also as to be almost universal Is the belief that the return of christ is imminent, you know, these are the last days, you know

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God is awakening his people to the torah now because we're in the last days now um kind of a thing um, and then very common as well is the belief that justification uh

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Very common what they'll say justification is by faith But then you can fall away if you don't keep torah

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And so, um, you have to keep yourselves and that comes from the church of god as well that that was part of of armstrongism

25:09

Okay. Yeah, I remember I remember that being talked about we actually have an episode, uh earlier in our archives,

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I think from 2019 Um, man, andrew, it feels like seven years of ministry.

25:20

I've only been around for like three We're barely into our fourth the beginning of our fourth year, but uh, what a ride it's been

25:27

But yeah, I remember we did an episode, uh on herbert armstrong the church of god and the role at church of god

25:32

I remember that being discussed a little bit, you know, it also came to mind you kind of put it in a note too is um, you know, we've

25:39

Been in the works and wanting to do a series on seventh day adventism On some time and just wondering too.

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Is there any connection to that because you know, I heard about you know sabbath keeping and even even within seventh day adventism, there is

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Sort of a emphasis too on what you do and do not eat in relation to your spirituality

25:59

Uh, do you see any any connection there? Oh, yeah, definitely. Um the uh

26:07

As I mentioned that the sacred name movement as it as its own movement Came out of seventh day adventism, but also

26:14

Uh, really armstrong ism, you know, herbert armstrong is not disconnected from that.

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He um you know it this is what what took a little digging, but I I Found you can really trace back

26:28

How he got involved in starting his group Was that his wife was convinced of observing seventh day sabbath

26:36

By someone who was a member of something called the church of god seventh day which goes

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You know back to goes back to a guy named gilbert cranmer Uh, though it had some other things it was a little more decentralized too, but it uh, he founded that church back in 1858 and um, he actually

27:00

Was also connected. He was contemporary to ellen white starter of seventh day adventism and was actually a member of her

27:09

Group for a little, you know member of seventh day adventist for a little while there or at least they were you know on good terms, but then he

27:18

Began to have second thoughts and concerns about some of her revelations He's like, oh,

27:23

I don't know if that's this or that is true. And so he kind of got disinvited from speaking at you know churches that were loyal to to ellen white so you've got the

27:38

So so cranmer you know, then he starts the church of god seventh day and that that gets you to to armstrong and armstrong gets involved with that, but then he quickly kind of Believes he has some new light and starts his own his own thing well, the interesting thing too is if you then follow

28:00

Forward from the worldwide church of god You've got there was the the breakup of the worldwide church of god really because they after armstrong died the the next guy he basically started introducing things to Bring it into more orthodox evangelical

28:20

Beliefs, you know the trinity is okay The you know christmas is okay things like that and and they when they did that of course

28:28

Tons of people left and started their own You know armstrong ism Groups and and things like that well, one of those early teachers was a guy named dean wheelock and he he had joined worldwide church of god and he um

28:47

Attended there they had a college ambassador college and And was active doing ministry there

28:54

And his wife dean wheelock his wife susan actually trademarked the phrase hebrew roots

28:59

Because they started a magazine called hebrew roots and and that's sort of I think probably a big reason why that Label is the most common one is because their magazine really got things out, you know in the age before the internet and uh, and all that but but yeah, you can you can see it and going all the way back to ellen white and of course ellen white goes all the way

29:23

Back to the millerites Yeah, yeah all the way To and so you can it's a little bit more scattered, but you can trace it all the way back to the same

29:33

You know cultural things that were going on that started mormonism and jehovah's witnesses and all of that So so quick question.

29:41

So, um between like after worldwide church of god and the the offshoot were all of these Different people who are holding to some of the armstrong armstrongism like beliefs went and became essentially like their own gurus for a while Uh, yeah between that age and the internet.

29:58

How did how did this movement stay alive? Was it like house churches what type of information? uh, were they using because it seems like what we're seeing today is the um,

30:08

The construct of like a 40 or 50 years of just different people believing different things about this

30:14

Movement, but then all of a sudden just bursts at the seams when the internet comes So between that like 40 or 50 years, what do you what do you suspect was going on?

30:23

I mean, it's it's hard to say. I think that Like a lot of ministries and a lot of groups

30:30

They it was spread same way. A lot of them are just word of mouth literature and things like that and uh, like I don't know if this was how it happened back then

30:44

But but we even see today even in the age of the internet a lot of people know people who are into These practices who just go to their church

30:53

And so they've been exposed to it one way or another and they kind of think yeah, I think this is True, but it hasn't stopped them from going to their regular church

31:02

But now they're talking to people about it and things like that. And that's that's one of the the issues

31:08

I see with it as well You know, it reminds me in a way of king james only ism you know that king j and and I just as an aside they a lot of them like the king james, but uh, the uh king james only ism, you know, someone will will get

31:24

Convinced by some of those arguments and as bad as they are And they'll then they'll just start talking about it in their church and it causes people to split and and that's and that's kind of Something that's happened with this movement as well either, you know the

31:40

A bunch of people will will be up in arms and leave because the church won't change or the church does change and you know, the pastor is convinced and then the church

31:50

Decides to to go down that road more and more and we we know someone um my wife knows she has a friend from from high school who uh, her friend's father got into it and That denomination was definitely not

32:07

Going about doing torah observance, but he began to teach more and more and more that that's what you should do and so of course he they they kicked him out as from being a pastor and And so he went and started his own thing.

32:20

So I think That kind of stuff happens with or without the internet, but certainly now the internet has has caused it to explode and and in doing that it's also caused people to Only really have a history with it based on the arguments

32:37

They've heard on the internet and none of the arguments on the internet have anything to do with the history You know the this the fact that we can trace things back to this person met this person all the way back to You know to ellen white and things like that That doesn't matter to to anyone actually

32:53

Practicing these things anyone who's actually torah observant if you ask them about it, they just say well I just I believe i'm following god's law and you know, that's and i'm

33:03

You know coming out of the and and depending on their beliefs. I mean they some of them Just think that they are doing

33:11

You know more obedient than than regular christians um, and many of them think that regular christians are the

33:19

You know the whore of babylon and and that kind of thing. So gotcha It's a wide range.

33:24

Yeah, and i'm just curious too. Do you think there's any aspect i'm just thinking about human nature as a whole I mean just just you look at the entirety of human history and humans as a whole.

33:34

We're very We're very tribalistic there's always the us versus them and you look at it in regards to sports um, you know that you have your favorite team and the rivalry between you know, just just like arizona cardinals fans and seattle seahawks fans or You have you know, you have left you have left versus right or or even really now with all the

33:56

You know the lgbt movement just all the gender confusion where people are now Giving themselves a unique identity with they them and they have now they're giving themselves

34:04

You know particular pronouns and whatnot and just I think just as a whole culturally people always like to kind of Take pride in themselves having something that someone else doesn't you know, you just think of like from a marketing standpoint.

34:20

Let's just say uh, lebron james comes out with these exclusive sneakers and there's only 200 of them available at $2 ,000 and that when that those sort of examples having those fly off the shelves because people want

34:31

These specialties that no one else has And again, i'm not i'm not trying to I understand the people who are who are in these different movements are sincere

34:40

And I think in many ways they want to do their best to be honoring and pleasing to god But do you think there is somewhat of that underlying?

34:48

I want to have This observance of the torah which others don't and therefore that Makes me unique and this kind of really defines not only who

34:58

I am. This is really my identity is based around What I call god or how

35:03

I observe the feast or how I observe From from their perspective the torah you kind of see that kind of given the cultural

35:10

Zeitgeist of our age as far as tribalism is concerned um, yeah,

35:15

I and again, this is it's very This it's a nuanced thing because there are many who observe the torah who

35:24

You know, I I know one guy, I I consider a friend who Believes you need to keep the torah um, but he

35:33

You know and he he says many christians, you know who? Don't don't do the feast.

35:39

They they go to church on sunday all that They don't eat kosher are better at keeping the torah than a lot of people who are trying to be quote -unquote torah observant because There are a lot of you know in his in his assessment.

35:53

There are a lot of people in the torah movement who are very Nasty to people and very

35:59

Tribalistic and oh you you go to church on sunday. So you're you're a devil and meanwhile, you know

36:06

I it doesn't matter, you know any of the other Fruits of the spirit or any of that stuff Um, so that certainly does happen again, it's nothing's universal, but I definitely

36:18

One of the things I experienced when I first got started in speaking to this

36:24

This issue these issues Was and it it definitely hasn't stopped though. I it has slowed down somewhat in in recent years, but uh it one of the first things

36:36

I saw was was people commenting on on my youtube videos and things that They oh, you know you just are are unlearned and you need to read the bible with under the the power of the spirit and you'll learn these things and and it's it's very

36:51

You know, we have the knowledge and you don't have the knowledge yet. And so very very patronizing um, but never really dealing with the argument that was presented or anything like that and So that there's a lot of that and um, there's also just a lot of I think on a more

37:14

Innocent level a lot of just it feels good to be part of a group that that you know that you feel like you you're you're part of the

37:24

The in group with god so to speak and I think that's true um, that's one of the attractions to any any cult really is

37:33

You know, even if their doctrine is orthodox if they're saying things about that insinuate that their group is super exclusive and and We really have the inside track to god

37:44

That attracts some people just because of that because it feels like they they really have, you know, the the right stuff and It's it's also interesting.

37:55

I think that with this there's there's a lot of things that Happen that you can do outwardly that show you're a part of the movement

38:04

I mean you you wear tzitzit you can a lot of them not all but a lot of them will do more other jewish things that aren't even necessarily in scripture like, you know, wear a yarmulke or Or you know, let their you know curls grow out, you know men, you know, let the the hair grow

38:20

Uh and and things like that Um, a lot of the men always wear hats even if they don't wear a yarmulke they they always

38:29

You see a lot of them have their head covered um, not again, not all and and so there's

38:36

There's a lot of these outward things. Um, and I it it's interesting to me You know looking at because I say well, what did jesus say, you know, how will they know?

38:45

You're my disciples, you know for your by your love for one another He didn't he didn't give us a dress code per se

38:53

Um, he gave us he you know Paul does talk about women covering their head in worship and there's debate about what exactly that means but That's sort of to create orderliness in the congregation.

39:04

It's not You know to to set you apart out in the world that you you look different. Um, what should do that is is our love um, and that's that does represent something different from You know because because cedar in the bible,

39:18

I mean definitely in the You know on in ancient israel before christ and up You know through the the days of the apostles they wore tassels and they did that um, and so they had things that that showed outwardly that they were they were god's people, but nowadays, you know with with this

39:37

Movement it I think there there's a lot of comfort in that again for for people who want to Be able to look at something

39:44

That's that's like a toggle switch like on or off like it's on look I wear i'm wearing this or I You know grow my beard or whatever it is

39:53

Um, I think that's definitely an attractant again, not for everybody, but it definitely does does occur

40:01

Uh, yeah, so one observation i'll give real quickly too and this is just um I think it's just something just to be wary of and again.

40:09

I want to be as gracious as possible We're really trying to give a general overview and hopefully this will create some conversations and and we'll

40:17

We'll be doing some follow -ups in regards to these episodes because I mean we know a lot of you. Uh, You know, this is very this is in close proximity to a lot of you.

40:26

Um, so just one thing I think it's always important just to be wary of even looking at the just the big picture as far as our area of focus um is especially

40:36

When there is a group whether centralized or even decentralized With uh when they have an epistemology

40:43

That basically states at one point in time, you know, this was the truth and say it was established around the first century, but That truth was lost and now on some level we are trying to restore it

40:56

Uh in some cases and again, i'm just giving i'm just giving general examples and again i'm not making specific

41:03

Equivalents, but you know, you look at joseph smith and that was a restoration That was their initial claim was there was a restoration the church fell away

41:10

Um, joseph smith went out into the woods to see which church was true and to pray about what church was true and then he received

41:17

Private revelation that he was adjoining none of the churches because they are all lost and he was to do Uh the restoration, uh, there's a restoration

41:26

Uh idea of epistemology behind the watchtower bible and tract society Uh and and just so so forth and so on that that's always been the case even

41:35

In I just made a post to you know, new age spirituality is always based around uh secret hidden Esoteric knowledge that we're uncovering and so again, we want to make sure that we're biblical and that you know

41:47

The the old testament is incredibly important. I mean, there's a reason why jesus when he was in his ministry.

41:54

He constantly Attributed, uh and quoted the old testament with authority

42:00

And he said to the pharisees as you know You search the scriptures because in them you think you find eternal life when in the reality, they're about me

42:08

So we're not taking away the fact that the old testament those things have their place. The question is

42:13

What are you doing with them? And even the case while it is we would argue that The law of god is perfect restoring the soul and it is the theano sauce the revelation of god.

42:24

I think you do Uh have to err on the side of caution When you're trying to use that when you're trying to make a claim that the knowledge was lost

42:34

From the church and now the law of god is is his rest is now this catalyst for quote -unquote restoration

42:41

And the knowledge was previously lost. I mean that that just in that principle of epistemology Epistemology in general should raise some red flags at least from my perspective.

42:51

What are your guys's thoughts on that? Yeah, I want to echo that real quick. I think it it can cause people to be real conspiratorial in nature

42:58

Uh and to think in that terms of an us versus them mentality of being persecuted That the bigger man is always the one that's looking down on the ones who are right essentially that there's a constant battle essentially, and we know that the bible states that Uh, jesus says that on this rock.

43:16

I have built my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it and gates are Defensive They're not offensive like the gospel's on the offense.

43:24

God's kingdom is growing But uh, there's movements like you were talking about jerry that like to capitalize on the conspiratorial nature of men

43:33

Right the doubting of god's word the veracity And the truth that is in it and instead what tends to happen is there will be just Microfocuses on certain sections of scripture that will be elevated over the others and it seems like especially in this movement

43:49

I think what the danger one massive danger is is actually interpreting the new testament through the lens of the old

43:55

When we have literally jesus the word made flesh the exegesis of god

44:00

Giving us right the church on which he built And we interpret the old testament through the new if that if that makes sense.

44:08

I think there's a big danger there yeah, the the thing i've seen and and jerry this something that I I would

44:17

I I would concur 100 that this idea that everything was lost. I mean they're they talk about Constantine and the council of nicaea and how everything went wrong there and really

44:30

And everybody, you know, yeah, and and they'll talk about I've heard one teacher Seemed a bit confused because he was saying that you know in nicaea constant or that constantine oversaw the another council

44:44

That got rid of all the laws, but he was conflating it with nicaea. It was really interesting but You know that they're you know reading there's there's some council somewhere that uh was

44:56

There said that you cannot observe Jewish festivals and things like that, right?

45:03

And uh, so they'll point to that and they'll say well look that's the reason Why this was lost and and all of that but Which is just which is just crazy sorry to interrupt but just because every single group centralized around private and esoteric knowledge

45:22

Whether it's again, this is just an observation. It's not an equivalence, but whether it's uh different cults that we've observed

45:29

Whether it's a new age of the occult or the occult. I mean we literally just I mean I was just studying earlier today

45:36

On that 2007 movie zeitgeist, which is all pseudo mythology um giving assumptions that jesus never existed and this is something conjured up like it was a reach the

45:48

The story of jesus is just a retelling of stories and they make the claim too that the idea of even jesus being god

45:57

And being worshiped to god was not Uh, even anything in reality at all until uh until constantine

46:05

He's the one who invented that or it just seems that that the story of constantine or the council of nicaea

46:11

It's always the pinnacle of point whatever they whatever they don't like That seems to be inserted that the constantine

46:20

And the council and and those evil conspirators There's oh the evil men conspiring.

46:26

They're they are the Main culprits. They are the ones who that is the spin zone to uh,

46:33

Whatever you don't like and they're the ones who took away what we now are trying to get back I mean, that's just the fact that you said that that's just fascinating Yeah, and and it's funny it goes with what you said to andrew about you know, you seeing that paradigm of of the the big and powerful

46:50

Is always wrong and the the little little guy is always right well anyone can can

46:59

Express things in such a way as to paint themselves as a little guy I mean is them are the majority of people on earth trinitarians?

47:07

No Are the majority of people on earth? Um You know reformation christians who believe in sola fide.

47:15

No, you know, so I could say that. Oh, yeah. Well All the other religions of the world believe in works righteousness

47:22

Just like a whole bunch of these, you know folks that are are promoting the torah So again, not all but but a lot of them

47:29

So and a lot of the more strident ones that would call me a heretic are the ones who are pushing that kind of stuff

47:35

So it's like yeah, you're just pushing what all the other religions in the world are pushing, you know, so it's not anyone can paint the picture to to make themselves look like, you know, we're the the the poor victims who are you know, uh recovering the truth, you know and all of that but um

47:56

Yeah when you just what I what i've really endeavored to do in in all of my work with this this topic is to focus um primarily on the theology on scripture on on that kind of stuff because A lot of a lot of the other stuff.

48:17

It's like oh they okay. That's great. But let's talk about the word of god and You know, that's where that's where the rubber meets the road and so that's

48:26

That's kind of what I try to keep it Keep it on Excellent. Andrew. Just any other observations you have in regards to just sort of these

48:35

Just some of the initial conversation but even like the fundamental what it appears to me that the epistemological foundations of where the hebrew roots movement is kind of sourcing their idea of their observance of the torah and you know just in regards to you know appealing to constantine or nicaea or just kind of We're now sort of uncovering like what was lost

48:58

What comes to mind there because I know I know your mind's always going your mind's always being blown So tell me what what is going on in the mind of the super sleuth right now

49:06

Yeah, the the first thing, uh with epistemology is man always has this

49:12

Uh this tendency to say that it is man who is the one who authorizes the truth of let's say canon or scripture

49:20

Right when that's not the case like even in council of night at the council of nicaea other councils that are taking place man never said

49:27

This is exactly what is in scripture and this is scripture God men don't don't have the authority to do that when the canon when the scriptures were penned down Through the inspiration of the holy spirit.

49:38

Let's say through paul through peter through john That is when it became scripture right when it was penned down because it was breathed out from god

49:46

People mainly just verified what these letters already were that were in circulation But with regards to council of nicaea, it's the same thing

49:53

It's that there's people who fall prey to the the lie that it's no man is the one who has the authority to determine

49:59

What the truth is and if you notice with a lot of these cults that go back to council of nicaea

50:05

It's like you have to rewrite history In order to try to even have a basis of something to stand on with regards to the truth and that's actually men

50:14

Rewriting history as where the word of god says and jesus says The gates of hell will not prevail against the church and judas does earnestly contend for the faith

50:23

That was once for all delivered to the saints, right in order to make the claim at nicaea

50:29

You actually have to challenge the veracity Of the words of christ and of scripture itself, which is which

50:35

I find is very ironic Yeah, you know what I mean? So, I don't know that's kind of what I was thinking. Yeah, and just I would assume too before you jump back in here

50:42

Uh other other andrew Is that again, this is this is a very decentralized group and what you're probably stating in regards to certain hebrew roots groups talking about the um appealing to constantine and nicaea as far as where Observance of the torah was lost that would not be representative as a whole.

51:04

I mean there's pockets of people who Wouldn't accept that notion i'm assuming but um, you know, it's kind of it's kind of a mixed bag as far as that's concerned

51:13

So again, we're just reiterating. This is just a this is going to be just a general overview Of the hebrews movements and hopefully, you know, it appears it is apparent that given our our platform

51:23

That you know this is something that's on the minds of a lot of people and we think we do In the same way how all those years ago when we started with the defecting from bethel series

51:31

We said there needs to be a conversation about that and hopefully this could be a catalyst for doing that as well Yeah, I I definitely agree it's

51:41

Yeah, they're definitely not everybody is as conspiratorial. Not everybody Denies the trinity.

51:47

I mean almost anything you pick Not all you know, it's just kind of you have to Understand that going into this conversation, but I think that's

51:57

Once you do understand that if you understand the essentials of the faith and you understand

52:03

You know, you've read your bible, right? you you can You can kind of piece through it and and if you're talking to somebody you can realize okay

52:13

I I need to make sure that I don't you know that I don't assume that somebody believes xyz just because they're wearing cc or just because the um

52:25

You know, they're saying saying yeshua, um, you know one Common, you know one guy a messianic.

52:31

I'm sure you know my dr. Michael brown Um, he he's a messianic. Jew. He does not believe that People have to continue to keep the ceremonial laws in the torah

52:42

But he prefers to say yeshua well, it's easy when you're Dealing with this a lot when someone says yeshua, you're like, oh this person's in the hebrews movement.

52:52

Well, no, not necessarily It's just you you have to you have to go beyond the surface stuff and And look at you know, the deeper the deeper

53:04

Theological issues or or when they like they'll take out the names of god. Well that i've seen sometimes they'll pronounce lord like lrd

53:12

Um, yeah, they'll l dash rd. Yeah, they'll abbreviate. Yahweh Um, there's there's that variable in play and again, it's one of those things too where if someone wants to Do something as a matter.

53:25

I think i'm very generally speaking as a matter of human conscience, you know, that that's okay What i've just seen just from general observation there tends to be the sort of tribalistic have and have nots

53:37

Where if you're not observing these things the way that I do then this actually this puts me in superiority

53:43

Um, you know and that's where and that that would be where some of the concerns I come from and just for example the feast um, we had uh,

53:51

I remember The it was a uh church service of the church I attended where one of the elders he was jewish and I think it was right around uh, passover time

54:02

Uh, we actually did a special service where he actually walked us through a passover meal

54:09

Um, which was it was really cool And I think the takeaway that I got I think a healthy takeaway.

54:16

It should give you a deeper and more appreciative understanding Of what we have now

54:22

I think in the new covenant and we can view that in that light I think where again where the concern comes from is that you end up with a spiritual sort of a pseudo spiritual superiority um behind this behind the person who is

54:38

Practicing these specific feasts and the one who is not And again that that's that's sort of in generally speaking some of the concerns

54:45

I have just from what i've seen Yeah, and and I agree and that's a lot of the draw

54:52

I mean that's a lot of the a reason why people are are drawn into this movement is because they they

54:59

You know it I I want to one of the quotes I love which I think I first heard on one of one of your guys episodes from walter martin is he said cults are the unpaid debts of the church

55:14

That when when the church is neglecting An area of doctrine that's an area that people can come in and and present things that that pull people, you know in a way and The fact is that I think that it's true that the church has in many ways many churches, especially in america where You know, it's it's all kind of a show, you know church is a performance on sundays uh that people attend like they attend a movie and And so a lot of folks in this movement have rightly

55:52

Criticized areas of of the church and and the cultural christianity And said look this this isn't what god wants and and so they're they're offering an alternative

56:04

And it helps that that alternative is coming right out of the old testament and it helps that Things that we as christians ought to know because we ought to have been reading our bibles

56:15

That the connections in the the very deep Connections from the old testament that are found in the new testament um

56:24

We ought to already know those but the fact that we don't gives people the opportunity to share that information and And and then that becomes the pretext for saying now we have more information, you know

56:40

We have more knowledge because look what we showed you about You know the hebrew the original hebrew of this or or how this feast connects with christ that you didn't realize and You know, why aren't we doing these feasts and things like that?

56:52

so it's it's uh, it's one of the big biggest draws is to Present things, you know from the old testament

57:01

And and seeing those connections to christ in in ways that people may maybe never saw before Gotcha, and just one last question before we wrap up here.

57:08

So we're just giving kind of a general overview of the movements and just some very general, uh consensus as far as the history and where this uh, movement started and even maybe some cultural analysis too of maybe kind of What is the appeal like what is the allure and again you are correct, especially

57:28

Even now in the age of the internet and and now everything is online Especially with code. There's been a lot of Decentralization a lot of the churches are now

57:37

Almost completely online. Uh, we just did a post too where Uh, there are some past of those trying to use like do vr meetings where people are online almost like a fortnight church

57:46

Where it's just kind of it's getting really out there um, so yeah, there's a lot of decentralization but in that process and especially now with the age with Social media both on on instagram and now tick tock where there's just any almost anybody

58:00

Can become an influencer and become a cult of personality And so i'd be curious I haven't looked at it

58:06

Yeah, i'd be curious to see what is out there in regards to hebrew roots like on tick tock There's probably people out there trying to promote this stuff with millions and millions of followers

58:13

All that sort of stuff. I just want a curious question to have I think I mentioned to you in our initial conversation before we wrap up here in part one is that There does seem for every reason it seems that there is this just has an allure to women

58:27

In general, like they're just they they just they just love this stuff And i'm just generally curious like what you think that could be um, like they're just they're just women who are very outspoken about I mean given that it's based off of the torah, which is a very patriarchal system

58:44

But you know given kind of where we are and all the different, you know movements of feminism And all that which entails i'm just curious.

58:52

Do you see any? any intrinsic connection between between that this movement and just a lot of Just the appeal it has to women as a whole

59:04

Yeah, I mean as I mentioned what got me started was two women, you know, my wife and another friend of ours who

59:13

Who were encountering the movement and and we're asking questions And I think

59:18

I think it's it's not so much something about the movement itself As much as it is,

59:25

I think a move in the culture My wife and I have talked a lot about just things that are happening in the culture

59:31

And it seems like there are a lot of women on the forefront of of various things, um, you know here in idaho, we've got you know, the currently lead polling

59:43

Uh candidate for governor as a woman and lieutenant governor um, most of the people who are uh wanting to Kind of stand up and and go against The the established narrative on on any number of subjects are often women and I don't know exactly why that is

01:00:04

I we Think it's probably just because women are more relational

01:00:10

They talk. Yeah, you know, they they they talk about their thoughts on things more than men do and therefore those thoughts get shared and so It it isn't

01:00:21

I I think that's probably the main thing, you know, but I have noticed it definitely with this movement that Uh, there are a lot of a lot more women who are both

01:00:34

Getting you know into the movement and coming out of the movement um I I sent you that that picture a little bit ago that I just looked up some of my

01:00:44

Metrics of followers on facebook and instagram and and the demographics and and about two -thirds of them are women and this is the subject that I Talk about more than than others

01:00:56

And and so and that's not really normal in christian apologetics. You think of apologetics?

01:01:02

It's mostly Very male dominated. Yeah, um and But in in this area and in and in this movement, it's not like there's a bunch of women teachers

01:01:12

They're they're all men. It's very patriarchal like you said um But the people who are sharing it the people who are just out there talking about it um it's both men and women, but I don't know it just it's uh

01:01:27

There's something about it. I think that it's also a cultural reaction um to The way that our culture is going and and how godless our culture is becoming and that it

01:01:43

It's sort of like we want to pull back and go the complete opposite way My my wife pointed this stuff out to me that you know, she follows a lot of folks on on youtube that are into traditional values and You know, they they wear something called prairie dresses and I didn't even know what the term meant

01:02:01

But it's like think of little house on the prairie If you go to target right now, you can buy that kind of dress at target right now.

01:02:09

That's that's in style It's like like this very traditional stuff is is

01:02:15

Really getting um a lot of traction right now. I think as a reaction to the the craziness and the culture that's that's trying to you know oppose everything that that you know traditional values or the bible and all that stand for it's not always christian, but it's the this sort of You know,

01:02:37

I think this is why beards are really in and you know Andrew i'm sad to see it's gone, but i'm glad it's coming back, you know

01:02:44

That was perfect comedic timing bro. That was perfect. Yes, right but it's it's why

01:02:51

It just seems like there's a there's a movement among a lot of people toward more traditional things and so hebrew roots is just sort of Uh, it it dovetails nicely with that and I think that's probably a big draw for it

01:03:06

Okay. Yeah, as far as my beer is concerned. It's one of those things like I think it just happened Like I don't think there was like this huge like spiritual incarnation behind it just all of a sudden

01:03:16

I could grow facial hair and then it Just happened. So either way either way. It's a it's right.

01:03:21

Andrew. It's a matter of the heart Like, you know behind your heart's like there's a real beer behind there. I'm just playing Um But anyways,

01:03:29

I hope you guys enjoyed uh This first part of this series, uh in the next and part two what we're going to try and do

01:03:35

And again, there's no way this is a very broad and decentralized movement Uh, so there's no way

01:03:41

I would think even in two Uh separate podcasts we typically do we're going to be able to cover everything

01:03:46

But we're going to try and do to do to the best of our ability. We're going to take just very generally

01:03:52

Some of the uh claims behind the epistemological claims behind uh The hebrew roots movements and their practices and then we're going to see if we can analyze that and see that's if that is ultimately

01:04:02

Consistent with how as christians how we should view scripture. So i'm definitely looking forward to that. So, uh, both andrews,

01:04:08

I appreciate you Uh being on here, uh, andrew and and uh other andrew so, uh, all that being said

01:04:14

Thank you guys for listening in and as always, uh your program a program This cannot continue without your support And as we are headed to the end of the year, please consider supporting us go to The cultist show .com

01:04:24

and we have an end of year Category, um, you'll see on the website. Please go there and help us meet our year -end goal

01:04:31

So all that being said, uh, we'll talk to you guys next time on cultists We're entering to the kingdom of the cults.