Cultish: An Introductory Overview of the Hebrew Roots Movement, Pt. 1

Alright, welcome back ladies and gentlemen to cultish entering the kingdom of the cults. My name is Jeremiah Roberts. I'm one of the co-hosts here. I am joined as always by Andrew super sleuth of the show sleuthing around here.

Sleuthing around up there. I should say up in Harriman Harriman, Utah. You're starting to show a little bit of The the very beginning the birth pangs of the new of the new beginning you're making all things new you finally you've got some stubble.

You're not exactly a bear. You're not exactly a Bare-faced anymore as far as your face is concerned so that that is encouraging. I hope to see more growth as we grow along into next year. Anyways, man, how are you doing?

How's everything going up in Utah? Hey things have been going man the church plants hitting off and we're just doing things dude excited for our first Christmas service and Excited for this podcast today.

Actually because we have Andrew Schumacher with us and he is very near and dear to my heart because he was with us during the beginning of our church. Plants out here in Utah Andrew. How are you doing, brother?

I'm doing real. Well, it's a it's good to see you again.

Introducing the Hebrew Roots Movement

Excellent. Excellent, man. So we brought you on just because you know, there are a lot of different groups that we do want to cover and you know, there is a lot that goes into a podcast and there's been certain times we've just been waiting for the right conversation to Maybe even be a catalyst for further conversation.

So what we are going to be talking about today is the Hebrew roots Movement and in all transparency, I'm not someone who's too knowledgeable on the subject I do know it's something it's a growing movement that has a it has a lot of momentum behind it.

I can just tell just from the times that we've just posted asking questions really kind of almost like a polling our audience just about what what's a Level-headed way to address this and as soon as I think the first post we did it was around 700 800 comments and Just because we have the name cult issue.

It was like people are just kind of up and antsy about it. And so I'm excited to unpack that today and you have some experience behind that. So yeah, let's just go ahead and jump into what just tell them and just a little bit about yourself.

And what is it about you that just tell them about what allowed you to start taking interest in the Hebrew roots movement. Let's just let's just jump into that.

Yeah, um, so Like yeah, like said, my name is Andrew Schumacher. I run a Small apologetics ministry called beginning of wisdom. You can find on YouTube. I'm on Twitter Facebook all that and I have for the last few years been You know, I work on different things, but I I've been real focused on this movement and that's largely been because of a couple of connections one was My wife had some people she met online who were into it and were You know inviting her to check out various ministries or people and videos and things like that and Another was a friend of mine That I just, you know had known and who moved away, but then reached out on on Facebook and was saying hey I have a like a women's Bible study or something like that and there's someone in there that's kind of Endorsing, you know going back to the you know, the laws in the Old Testament Regarding like dietary laws feast days things like that and was wondering, you know what I thought about it and so that that's what kind of got me just Investigating it at for for starters and then as I did I just realized there's just hardly anything out there that you know, lots of people lots of big ministries are talking about Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses and and Doing a polite, you know, it's it's very easy to find good apologetic material on those move You know those groups, but this was one that I couldn't find very much.

And so I realized there was there just seemed to be a real need so I just started studying it hard and went back and read the Torah and you know all that stuff to just kind of get an idea of where they're coming from and You know a handle on on the whole all the theology of it.

Gotcha. Gotcha. I appreciate it.

I also I appreciate you sharing that and So maybe we could just kind of get into what we always want to try and do is just kind of give Give people just a basic primer on defining terms because even when I was mentioning to our producer Gabe I shout out to Gabe and all that he does for us, but we just.

We just did a series on the Hebrew Israelites and now we're doing something on the Hebrew roots and he's like, well How's that different? And so I was like, hmm. That's a good question I know both of them sort of have similarities in the sense that they see a Significance to how they interpret the Hebrew language.

So the only thing I've been able to kind of Decipher just from the comments. I've seen on our page. And again, I'm sure there are people involved in this who would be my brothers and sisters in the Lord and it would just be but what I do see usually there is a Significance they put upon themselves with how they pronounce the name of God.

I've seen a significance in regards to how they observe certain feasts and Even I forget the name of it. But it's almost sort of this it's on the hem of a shirt or it's almost like a belt that has seat.

What is it called that seat seat? Tassels. Yeah. Yeah, so I had someone who Was like you came into church and was wearing he's visiting, you know. Along with his family and and I saw that and I didn't it was kind of one of those things where it's like you see.

Something but you don't want to say anything because you feel like you'll feel like awkward. So I asked someone else it was a friend of his. I said, what is that? He's wearing they're explaining it. So I just walked away not not in any way making fun or like mocking or anything of nature I just thought that's that's interesting.

That's different. And I had to some point I would like to be able understand like what is the appeal of doing that? So yeah, so I'm just generally curious could you so go ahead and just give us just a general overview of like What are they what are some of the tenets that they hold to as far as practices and where do those stem from?

Yeah. Right and and yeah, it's it's funny you say that that you met met someone at church, right and and that's kind of a a common thing. People in within their churches will sometimes encounter folks or sometimes it'll be online I know in our personal friends group we have you know outside of our church.

We we have quite a few people we know who are are into this Torah observance and that kind of thing. So it's it's very hard to give a very precise definition. It's there like you said, there are some similarities with Hebrew Hebrew Israelites.

And in in different things that they do and One of the one of those similarities is that you can't define them all with a single doctrinal statement because it's it's very decentralized but There there's lots of terms that that they'll go by sometimes.

They don't like any of them, but you know, you've heard obviously Hebrew roots. He break roots Torah observance some will use the term Messianic, but they'll distinguish from Messianic Judaism. Or some of them will just adopt that term or they might say Messianic Christianity.

You know, or maybe just Torah movement. I mean, these are all just kind of mixing these things together. There's a lot of different Titles, I mean you could you could write a book just listing them. But the thing that's that I think is important in this conversation is to just simply acknowledge that.

And even though we're using, you know, Hebrew roots is just the most Well known among people who aren't part of the movement that kind of describes things about the movement. And so if if a person listening doesn't Think, you know, oh, I'm not Hebrew roots because I'm not like this or that doctrine that those people who claim that title are Great, you know, that's fine.

You use your type use whatever label you like. The important thing is that we're we're looking at substance and the real substance of it is. It it comes down to promotion of observance of the Torah and specifically observance of Mostly, you know things that Christians or a lot of Christians have defined as ceremonial law things like, you know dietary laws eating kosher.

Observing seventh-day Sabbath observing the Levitical feasts things like tzitzit. That kind of stuff is what is. You know, they're they're focusing on that difference and they believe that Christianity has lost its way because it's not observing those things.

There's a lot of other doctrines that I'm sure we'll get into but that's sort of the main Distinguishing factor that I think is pretty much across the board. Right, you know virtually universal when it comes to what we're talking about.

Decentralization and the Appeal of Torah Observance

Okay.

Andrew just so far. Do you have any thoughts or observations or questions? You want to ask them real quickly to continue to?

Rabble this discussion. Yeah, so thinking about like Hebrews. It's it's kind of like it's it's trying to pin jello to a wall with like a nail. Yes, right is. Um, is there like a common theme Andrew where it's like modern Christianity has almost been corrupted by pagan things.

Oh, that's trying to get back to Something pure yeah.

Yeah, it's it's very common. And and this is where.

You know.

Where where we want to be very careful and in how we we discuss the the topic because Because there's it's very decentralized. There's also a wide range of beliefs within the movement and At one end of the spectrum.

You've got people who are You know Explicit card-carrying so to speak Trinitarian Calvinist, you know, they they love the reformers and and all that but they also believe that we should be keeping these these particular Commandments the same way that that Israel that so so there's very little, you know, the differences.

They're important, but they're not I would say up to the level of heresy or you know Necessarily, this is a cult because they believe you should not eat pork, you know, that's not something that we necessarily should divide over but as you continue to the other end of the spectrum, you've got folks that unabashedly Promote works righteousness that you are you have to include good works either to even get salvation or to keep your salvation virtually every Trinitarian heresy From the first century is represented among somebody in the in the movement somewhere and so you've got You've got a lot of variety.

Going on and so, you know, it's always the thing, you know, right cultish. Are we talking about a cult? Are you calling what I believe a cult? Yeah, I think not just right as you're being talked about.

Well.

I think and now I think maybe that was some of because I and all honest if you go back to the original post that we did we Googled images and like I'm not sure this kept I like the image but it's not copper and it's hats.

It was just some image of some Hebrew lettering and I just basically all I said is I had said hey We're interested and potentially opening doing a discussion on the Hebrew roots at some point Do you have any suggestions on what would be a fair and level-headed way to approach the subject?

That was my question. But then there's all this angst and just just very I wouldn't say I would hostility but just I would say very passionate and I think and even even defensive and maybe It was just because our podcast is called cultish.

And so maybe there is this sort of assumption that we're we're going to label it as a cult. And so just big and again, I just want to reiterate just because our podcast is called cultish does not mean We're not trying to make any sort of emotionally charged accusation.

We want to take any any sort of claim. We always want to do that and maybe even the harp I would say just from what you're saying maybe maybe the heart behind it is pure because you know, the Bible says that we should be opposed to Syncretism with any aspect of paganism.

We should take every thought captive, you know, we need to Take down any sort of any sort of worldly wisdom that sets itself up against the knowledge of God and it talks about those things. But then I guess the question would be like is This approach or this assumption that this message at some point was lost and now we need to restore it as an attempt to Separate ourselves from syncretism this observance of the laws now some catalysts to do so.

Okay. Well if that's the claim Well, let's take a look at what the claims are and let's let's definitely analyze it by scripture for sure. I can definitely get that.

Yeah, yeah, is it is it safe to say to like? Essentially since it's a decentralized we could have people that follow Parts and beliefs of the Hebrew roots movement that could be going to your church, right and it's good to actually Be knowledgeable about what's going on to have conversations with people.

But it's also good to be knowledgeable because is there a danger Andrew you would say where you can entertain this. When you have you know, like let's say the freedom in Christ to observe tradition. But then creating tradition as external law for other people to follow and expecting them to follow it.

Is there a danger where people could fall into that trap in the Hebrew roots movement like they start off? Let's say, you know with just intentions of trying to do some feasts and things like that that were done You know in the Old Testament, but there could be a trap essentially where they could fall in pray to Using those traditions as extra biblical things placing them on others.

Yeah, I mean I think there's there's a danger in any Bad theology or false false belief not that any bad theology you know takes one outside of the faith, but Any any bad theology has the potential to do so even something as simple as loving your mother or loving your child has the potential if it blows completely out of proportion to for you to make an idol of Another person and supplant Christ in your life like it is so anything is on that level is potentially difficult and or you know dangerous and From the testimonies that I've heard of people who've come out of the movement.

It is It's it's the same kind of thing over and over, you know. This this feeling that they felt, you know Like condemned and that they can never measure up. They can never be good enough, but everyone was telling them that they could.

Because you know the the law says you you know, the Bible says you can keep the law is an argument they make so yeah, there's there's definitely a a Danger to it and I have seen a lot of folks. I've seen one I've kind of followed his story personally.

Who went from? Just being you know promoting the Torah to denying that Paul is a true apostle to denying that Christ is the Messiah to denying the the whole Bible and You know, it's so it definitely happens now that's certainly not universal.

It just like loving your child is doesn't mean that you're gonna put them above Christ. So it's yeah anything that's false is going to be dangerous and that's the the hard part with the Hebrew Roots movement and with this is that It's a lack of understanding of the whole of Scripture.

And so it's you know Artificially elevating one aspect of the commandments to where they ought not to be and that's that causes Problems and it's it's very easy to fall into if you're very faithful. Usually the people who convert are people who are very devoted Religious people, you know, they're they're in churches and they're really gung-ho about their faith and they see this as a way to Elevate their faith by going back and and doing doing these things.

From Messianic Judaism and Sacred Name Teaching to Armstrongism

Okay, excellent. And then so just I believe we mentioned to in our initial conversation to pluner research That it is it is very decentralized. So even in our analysis, even if we did all our research and we base it off this one particular group There probably would be a lot of P other different groups who say no, that's not an accurate representation and vice-versa and again, one of the most outspoken groups is a YouTube channel called 119 ministries and We're just going to mention them in passing because we're again We're just we're trying to do a general overview.

And again, the reason why I said it's a very it's a group. It's a movement that's very decentralized. In fact I believe our brother Mike winger has actually done some good analysis of 119 ministries in specifically and you can definitely check out his content over at Bible thinker and I shout to my chatted about him.

Yeah, yeah shout to my winger. He did this. I hope to have him on again soon. So yeah, I guess when maybe just from your research and understanding How did this sort of you mentioned is very decentralized?

Where did this kind of start or take off? I think the first time I ever heard of this Really taking prominence was maybe Less than a decade ago You know, I think I had someone on Facebook. My friend made a joke about him going to some all-you-can-eat buffet about lobster or something like that and it was just somebody out of the blue who's talking about how that's an abomination to God and and then I Discoursing with him and I was just trying to make sense of his hermeneutic and then I saw his Facebook profile.

And then there was I think there is you know That the different print out a different pronunciation of like Yahshua or it was just this is different I mean these are this is all Coming from somewhere and going somewhere.

It was just hard to kind of put the pieces together but just from your understanding like is there kind of a general pinnacle point for where we can say this kind of the catalyst started.

Yeah, so it it is very difficult to Pin down exactly where everything Came from but I think there are some important moments. I suppose in in terms of history I think going if we if we start where we're at now and kind of work our way backwards The the movement really started to take off really with the the age of the internet, no question like a lot of Things out there you know with YouTube and and things where you can put your opinions out there for everyone to see and It's it's a lot more likely that that things will catch on so to speak.

So that's like a lot of the most recent growth comes from that. But of course that the movement doesn't only go back, you know to the 90s, but that's really I think where it started to Explode where a lot of people know people, you know who are are into it.

I think that the in research in the history the the places that I found I Guess the They're the sort of sources and and this is where some Some groups will Want to differentiate themselves from others because they look at their own history and say why we came from over here You came from over there.

So we're not the same thing but if you know, you're converging on the same theology, then you know, we're not talking about just one group, right but You know, there there's kind of three big source movements that that kind of converge to I think to do this and and others have said this as well, but One is messianic Judaism, which is definitely not the same thing as as what we're talking about messianic Judaism is a belief system that says that the Jew that Jews ethnically Jewish people who believe in Jesus Feel they have been called by God to continue in the law and and observing all the ceremonial stuff.

But Gentiles don't have to because They you know Jews have messianic Jews have a specific Purpose in God's plan to to reach out to the other ethnic Jews and and so they're not they're trying they're hanging on to their Jewish cultural heritage and all of that.

So there's so that is a very different starting point than Hebrew roots, which says Everyone needs to keep the Torah. It's it's God's law for for all people.

But.

Messianic Judaism is sort of a place where the thinking and a lot of that stuff comes from. So there there are actually lots and lots and lots and some say even a majority of. The people who attend messianic synagogues are actually Gentiles, you know, they're not actually Jewish.

So.

There are lots of people there. So that's sort of one stream where people started out in that movement and then kind of thought well I don't agree that it's just for the Jews. I think it's for everybody.

And so that that kind of puts them in the mindset of Hebrew roots. Another example or another place that things kind of got going is something called the sacred name movement, which Stress the Hebrew pronunciation of names.

So they say say Yeshua instead of Jesus. They say They either will will say Yahweh or some other Pronunciation of the divine name the Tetragrammaton or maybe they won't and they'll just say the letters Yod have of hey and that that's how they say the divine name.

But they they believe and they'll say all of the apostles Hebrew names and things like that. So they think it's really important to to to do that and then another probably the biggest influence theologically Was herbert armstrong's worldwide church of god and because he when he got going and he started back in the 30s and And all that but when he got going he believed in, you know, seventh day sabbath Celebrate all the levitical feasts don't celebrate christmas or easter.

Those are pagan Follow the dietary restrictions he believed in something called british israelism that that europe was full of the The lost tribes of israel that has been.

You know.

Adapted into something called two house theology within the hebrew roots movement. Um, which basically believes a lot of gentiles are are from the lost tribes 10 northern tribes of israel um, like I said before a lot of non-trinitarian theology.

Uh, but and all sorts i've. I've heard Unitarians i've heard modalists i've heard arians. I've heard. Even some really interesting i've heard even some that that go with armstrong's view that says that the word god means family and that it's.

It's kind of a a god family thing. So you can say jesus is god because he's the son of god, but it's like a family thing not a you know, one god thing.

Um.

And uh, they also also. Almost i've heard this also is to be almost universal. Is the belief that the return of christ is imminent, you know, these are the last days, you know God is awakening his people to the torah now because we're in the last days now.

Um kind of a thing. Um, and then very common as well is the belief that justification. Very common. What they'll say justification is by faith. But then you can fall away if you don't keep torah. And so, um, you have to keep yourselves and that comes from the church of god as well.

That that was part of of armstrong ism. Okay. Yeah, I remember I remember that being talked about we actually have an episode. Uh earlier in our archives, I think from 2019. Um, man, andrew, it feels like seven years of ministry have only been around for like three we're in we're barely into our fourth the beginning of our fourth year, but uh.

What a ride it's been. But yeah, I remember we did an episode Uh on herbert armstrong the church of god and the role at church of god. I remember that being discussed a little bit, you know, it also came to mind you kind of put it in a note, too is um, you know, we've Been in the works and wanting to do a series on seventh-day adventism.

On some time and just wondering too. Is there any connection to that? Because you know, I heard about you know sabbath keeping and even even within seventh-day adventism there is Sort of a emphasis too on what you do and do not eat in relation to your spirituality.

Do you see any any connection there?

Oh, yeah, definitely. Um the uh As I mentioned that the sacred name movement as it as its own movement came out of seventh-day adventism, but also Uh, really armstrong ism, you know, herbert armstrong is not disconnected from that.

He um You know it this is what what took a little digging but I I Found you can really trace back How he got involved in starting his group. Was that his wife was convinced of observing seventh-day sabbath?

By someone who was a member of something called the church of god seventh day which goes You know back to goes back to a guy named gilbert cranmer. Uh, though it had some other Things it was a little more decentralized too, but it uh, he founded that church back in 1858.

And.

He actually Was also connected. He was contemporary to ellen white starter of seventh-day adventism and was actually a member.

Of her.

Group for a little you know member of seventh-day adventists for a little while there or at least they were You know on good terms, but then he Began to have second thoughts and concerns about some of her revelations.

He's like, oh, I don't know if that's this or that is true. And so he kind of got disinvited from speaking at you know churches that were loyal to to ellen white so you've got the so so cranmer. You know, then he starts the church of god seventh day and that that gets you to to armstrong and armstrong gets involved with that but then he quickly kind of Believes he has some new light and starts his own his own thing.

Well, the interesting thing too is if you then follow forward from the worldwide church of god you've got there was the the breakup of the worldwide church of god really because they after armstrong died the the next guy he basically started introducing things to Bring it into more orthodox evangelical Beliefs, you know the trinity is okay.

The you know christmas is okay things like that and and they when they did that of course Tons of people left and started their own, you know armstrong ism Groups and and things like that. Well, one of those early teachers was a guy named dean wheelock and he he had joined worldwide church of god and he um Attended there they had a college ambassador college and And was active doing ministry there.

And his wife dean wheelock his wife susan actually trademarked the phrase hebrew roots because they started a magazine Called hebrew roots and and that's sort of I think probably a big reason why that Label is the most common one is because their magazine really got things out, you know in the age before the internet and uh, and all that but but yeah, you can you can see it and going all the way back to ellen white and of course ellen white goes all the way.

Back to the millerides. Yeah, yeah all the way To and so you can it's a little bit more scattered, but you can trace it all the way back to the same. You know cultural things that were going on that started mormonism and jehovah's witnesses and all of that.

So so quick question. So, um between like after worldwide church of god and the the offshoot were all of these Different people who are holding to some of the armstrong armstrongism like beliefs went and became essentially like their own gurus for a while.

Uh, yeah between that age and the internet, how did how did this movement stay alive? Was it like house churches? What type of information? Uh, were they using because it seems like what we're seeing today is the um, The construct of like a 40 or 50 years of just different people believing different things about this Movement, but then all of a sudden just bursts at the seams when the internet comes so between that like 40 or 50 years.

What do you what do you suspect was going on?

I mean, it's it's hard to say. I think that Like a lot of ministries and a lot of groups They it was spread same way. A lot of them are just word of mouth literature and things like that and uh, like I don't know if this was how it happened back then.

But but we even see today even in the age of the internet a lot of people know people who are into These practices who just go to their church and so they've been exposed to it one way or another and they kind of think yeah, I think this is True, but it hasn't stopped them from going to their regular church.

But now they're talking to people about it and things like that. And that's that's one of the the issues I see with it as well. You know, it reminds me in a way of king james only ism you know that king j and and I just as an aside they a lot of them like the king james, but uh, the uh king james only ism, you know, someone will will get Convinced by some of those arguments and as bad as they are.

And they'll then they'll just start talking about it in their church and it causes people to split and and that's and that's kind of Something that's happened with this movement as well either, you know.

The.

A bunch of people will will be up in arms and leave because the church won't change or the church does change and you know, the pastor is convinced and then the church Decides to to go down that road more and more and we we know someone.

Um.

My wife knows she has a friend from from high school who uh, her friend's father got into it and That denomination was definitely not Going about doing torah observance, but he began to teach more and more and more that that's what you should do and so of course he they they kicked him out as from being a pastor and And so he went and started his own thing.

So I think That kind of stuff happens with or without the internet, but certainly now the internet has has caused it to explode and and in doing that it's also caused people to Only really have a history with it based on the arguments They've heard on the internet and none of the arguments on the internet have anything to do with the history.

You know the the fact that we can trace things back to this person met this person all the way back to You know to ellen white and things like that. That doesn't matter to to anyone actually Practicing these things anyone who's actually torah observant.

If you ask them about it they just say well, I just I believe i'm following god's law and you know, that's and i'm You know coming out of the and and depending on their beliefs. I mean they some of them Just think that they are doing You know more obedient than than regular christians um, and many of them think that regular christians are the You know the whore of babylon and and that kind of thing.

So gotcha.

Tribal Identity, Outward Markers, and the Fear of Restorationism

It's a wide range. Yeah, and i'm just curious too. Do you think there's any aspect i'm just thinking about human nature as a whole? I mean just just you look at the entirety of human history and humans as a whole.

We're very We're very tribalistic. There's always the us versus them and you look at it in regards to sports um, you know that you have your favorite team and the rivalry between you know, just just like arizona cardinals fans and seattle seahawks fans or You have you know, you have left you have left versus right or or even really now With all the you know, the lgbt movement just all the gender confusion where people are now Giving themselves a unique identity with they them and they have now they're giving themselves You know particular pronouns and whatnot and just I think just as a whole culturally People always like to kind of Take pride in themselves having something that someone else doesn't you know, you just think of like from a marketing standpoint.

Let's just say uh, lebron james comes out with these exclusive sneakers and there's only 200 of them available at $2 ,000 and that when that those sort of examples having those fly off the shelves because people want These specialties that no one else has and again I'm not i'm not trying to I understand the people who are who are in these different movements are sincere.

And I think in many ways they want to do their best to be honoring and pleasing to god. But do you think there is somewhat of that underlying? I want to have This observance of the torah which others don't and therefore that Makes me unique and this kind of really defines not only who I am.

This is really my identity is based around What I call god or how I observe the feast or how I observe From from their perspective the torah you kind of see that kind of given the cultural Zeitgeist of our age as far as tribalism is concerned.

Um, yeah, I and again, this is it's very It's a nuanced thing because there are many who observe the torah who You know, I I know one guy I I consider a friend who Believes you need to keep the torah um, but he You know and he he says many christians, you know who Don't don't do the feast.

They they go to church on sunday all that They don't eat kosher are better at keeping the torah than a lot of people who are trying to be quote-unquote torah observant because there are a lot of you know in his in his assessment, there are a lot of people in the torah movement who are very Nasty to people and very Tribalistic and oh you you go to church on sunday.

So you're you're a devil and meanwhile, you know I it doesn't matter, you know any of the other Fruits of the spirit or any of that stuff. Um, so that certainly does happen um again, it's nothing's universal, but I definitely One of the things I experienced when I first got started in speaking to this This issue these issues Was and it it definitely hasn't stopped though.

I it has slowed down somewhat in in recent years, but uh it one of the first things I saw was was people commenting on on my youtube videos and things that they oh, you know, you just are are unlearned and you need to read the bible with under the the power of the spirit and you'll learn these things and and it's it's very You know, we have the knowledge and you don't have the knowledge yet and so very very patronizing um, but never really dealing with the argument that was presented or anything like that and.