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Welcome to the debates is the gift of healing for the present day. Welcome to you church without walls and Welcome to our two guests. Dr. Michael Brown line of fire radio show ask dr. Brown org and fire school of ministry.
Exactly. Great. Welcome Michael and dr. James White's is my memory bank here. But it is Alfred Amiga ministries and your radio show is the dividing line. Have I missed anything out a omen dot org and your that's exactly right.
A omen .org is the website's brilliance format for the debates and the first hour will be studio debates between dr. Brown and Dr. White and then we will open the phone lines to the church without walls.
We'll give that information out later on the telephone number, but also you can email. Please email Specific to this debate and keep your email short Although never be read out in the second hour and try and keep them to a biblical Track unless you're an atheist and by all means we welcome all Our audience and the hashtag is healing debate For Twitter, so welcome to the debate.
We're going to start with five minutes opening statements and.
Dr. Brown you will begin great. Well, I'm so glad that you can be watching the debate tonight. And I'm so glad to have the opportunity to be here with my esteemed friend and colleague. Dr. James White as.
For the gift of healing being for today or what's spoken of in 1st Corinthians 12 gifts of healing. That's a pretty open-and-shut case. It's a very simple answer. It's only mentioned specifically in 1st Corinthians the 12th chapter.
We see in 1st Corinthians 1 7 that the Corinthians were eagerly waiting for the the Lord Jesus and not lacking any gift. 1st Corinthians 13 indicates that the gifts continue until the eschaton until the return of Jesus.
But specifically the gift of healing is not spoken of as something for the Apostles here. It is something given for the common good and it says in 1st Corinthians 12 beginning verse 28 and in the church God has appointed first of all Apostles second prophets third teachers then workers of miracles.
Also those having gifts of healing those able to help others those with gifts of administration, etc. In other words, this is just part and parcel of normal life in the body that these gifts are given.
There's no indication that there was healing on demand or that it was automatic in every case. We know there are people sick and current at the same time that the gifts were flourishing and yet we see clearly that this is Just part of something given to the body for the common good not exclusively associated with the Apostles.
In fact separated from the Apostles and something that does continue until Jesus returns. I think what we need to do is look at the larger question though of healing of what the scriptures say about divine healing and What our expectation can be if we look at the gift of healing along with gift of prophecy and other things?
We see that it is as the Spirit wills. And we see this is also connected in Acts the second chapter with the outpouring of the Spirit which Peter says is for the last days. So it's from the resurrection of Jesus until the end of the age and it's not just limited to a select few and again Certainly not limited to the Apostles.
I'm speaking of the gifts in general. What about though divine healing? I got so interested in this in the 80s that I switched my doctoral dissertation topic at New York University and just focused on the Hebrew word for healing in its ancient Near Eastern context and I Subsequently wrote an intensive academic monograph called Israel's divine healer because I really wanted to study this out.
I have compassion for the sick and wanted to understand what God's Word said. So if we start with the Old Testament witness beginning in Exodus 15 26 God revealed himself as Israel's Healer as the divine physician of the nation and if they would walk in obedience to him He would take sickness out of our midst.
This is reinforced in Exodus 23 verses 25 and 26. It's reinforced in Deuteronomy 7 verses 12 through 15. And what we see when we look at the covenant curses in Deuteronomy 28 that severe sickness and illness Could be a covenantal curse and that healing was a covenantal blessing in Short the way God promised these things is similar to our human feelings that that when a couple is married.
We don't say I hope you get sick and die. I hope your children are diseased and ill we we hope for health and well-being and these were simply Covenantal blessings. There were godly people who were sick again healing was not automatic.
But healing was a good thing promised by God. Whereas sickness was generally associated with sin or disobedience or divine wrath throughout the Old Testament so if you look at Psalms like Psalm 6 Psalm 30 Psalm 41 you'll see this connection even Psalm 103 between forgiveness and Healing because these things were often linked together when Jesus comes into the world He now comes in living color to expand on these things.
He said if you've seen me you've seen the father. He brings healing to the sick and demonized and what's interesting is often in the New Testament. There's a connection between demons and disease. It's not to say if you're sick now that you're therefore in sin or demonized.
That's the last thing on my mind however, we do know that sickness sin demons are often associated together as negative things negative conditions negative Aspects of life so we see Jesus driving out demons and healing the sick.
We see him healing all who came to him. He doesn't go around making well people sick. He goes around making sick people well and says he's doing this as a reflection of the father. He's moved by compassion to heal the sick.
It's a main reason why God still heals today moved by compassion and not only so he heals the sick as an indication that the Kingdom of God is breaking into this earth the kingdom of God that sets the captives free.
Paul speaks of it in 1st Corinthians 2 that his preaching was in demonstration of the Spirit's power and then says in 1st Corinthians 4 The kingdom of God is not a matter of words only but of power. This is the gospel being demonstrated sick being healed demons being driven out Jesus being exalted as Savior healer deliverer.
Even the word Soter in Greek would include these Concepts. Jesus comes in the power of the Spirit that Greek word dunamis Often refers to divine healing power if you trace it through in Luke and Acts.
That's the same spirit that's been poured out upon us. And then when we get to James the fifth chapter. It's just a normal way of life pray for the sick the prayer offering faith will make the sick person.
Well, and we can see without question that healing was not limited to the Apostles. You have a man like Philip the evangelist or Stephen the deacon and they ministered divine healing power. We see promises from Jesus that those who believe in him will do the same works and we see throughout the rest of the New Testament and early church history healing.
The gift of healing continued in a powerful way. Thank you very much. With no further ado you get six minutes. Oh, I set my clock for five minutes. What can I say? Let me just let me just Piggyback directly on what Michael just said and continue on from there because the last statement that Michael made Was that we see this these healings in the New Testament, which we do.
But he says we see it throughout the New Testament and the debate this evening is is the gift of healing for today. Well, it needs to be we need to find what the gift of healing is. First of all. But I want to point something out right from the start and that is when you talk about this Continuing throughout the New Testament.
I want to challenge that. I want to challenge that biblically in other words what we see for example in Acts chapter 3 where people in Jerusalem are bringing the sick out on cots and Placing in the streets if perhaps when Peter passes by his shadow might fall upon them.
Evidently at least in some instances bringing about healing of these individuals. Is that what we see at the end of the New Testament? Is that what we see as the normative experience the church throughout the ages?
Is that what we see? When Peter writes to when Paul writes to Timothy and he says not in a Timothy you have frequent Illnesses, that's the specific term that he uses so don't drink just water alone, but drink some wine for your frequent Ostinia your your illnesses and he then says that one of his most Faithful ministry partners he had to leave him in Miletus.
With ostinia with sickness with weakness so much so that Paul can say he was given a thorn in the flesh and When he receives that thorn in the flesh Jesus in response to his prayer says to him my strength is made perfect in Ostinia in weakness to the Apostle Paul.
So do we see what was happening in Acts chapter 3? At the founding of the church at the time that to need to establish the authority of the Apostles. Do we see that continuing? Do we have for example in the pastoral epistles when Paul writes to Timothy and to Titus any?
Kind of instructions as to how to deal with the continuing prevalence of healing in the church. Instead we have a Paul talking about how to take care of the widows. Well, why not just raise their husbands from the dead?
Why did the have these husbands die if healing is to be the norm, etc, etc. The question really cannot be Stated in such a way as to say well if it happened here. Then nothing changed because we are given evidence within the text itself when we look at the church.
Developing over time that there was something special first about first of all about the Apostles. Exercising this gift and remember in what Michael just read from 1st Corinthians the Apostles themselves are described as a gift given to the church and I will argue that there are no longer any Apostles as Paul was an Apostle or Peter was an Apostle or James was an Apostle.
I do not believe there are Apostles in the church today in the sense those when men were Apostles and so if that gift was given to the church and That gift was then accompanied with certain miraculous signs to establish its authority.
The question then becomes do we have to keep that office in the church? Remember the Apostle. Paul said the church is built upon the foundation of Jesus Christ himself the chief cornerstone and the Apostles and prophets.
Well, I have a simple question to ask how many times do you lay the foundation of a building? Do you continue to lay the foundation of a building or is the foundation laid which is Jesus Christ? The Apostles and prophets and what they have left us in Holy Scripture and now you build the building upon that.
Well, that means there's going to be a change there's going to be something that happens and and fundamentally as I have sought to honestly understand Michael's position because one of the things we need to bring out this evening is Michael's position is not the majority position of people who claim to be faith healers today.
In other words, I did not hear Michael say the one thing that has struck my ears so many times. And that is it is always God's will to heal anyone if you simply have enough faith. How many people have built entire ministries upon making that assertion.
Michael didn't say that. One of the things I appreciate about Michael's Work on this subject is he has to wrestle and he does wrestle with the reality that there are faithful godly spirit-filled Christians who live their life in a quadriplegic body and They are holy people.
They are people who know Jesus and so you've got to deal with that reality. You've got to deal with the fact that there are people experiencing that in this life. And therefore you can't just glibly say well, it is always God's intention to heal so just a couple things is there a Development in the church over time first of all and secondly when we talk about the gift of healing for today Are we talking about how the Apostles?
Experienced this with the very shadow of Peter bringing healing or we're talking about the fact that I do affirm and that is that God Does heal but he heals freely in his own way. That's the issue this evening.
Thank you very much James. And now a message to the audience. You've heard from our two speakers Directly their opening statements, please respond by email Twitter or Facebook. You'll see it coming up on the screen.
And now I think we'll interact between us rather than with the audience. But they can you please everyone who's out there in church without walls, you know, write in and take part. So do we give our as last night our rebuttals to I think now to each other rather than to the it's got it.
Okay, great.
In response James I Do appreciate your heart for the sick and suffering and I share that and whatever we're talking about. It's not abstract theology. So we want to reinforce that we share that heart.
I Categorically differ with many of the points that you made based on clear testimony of Scripture. For example, if the book of Acts is trying to show us that something is waning. Why does it have Paul in the last chapter of the book of Acts?
Bringing healing to every single sick person on the island of Malta. That's hardly any type of a decrease and if we're looking for some pattern that allegedly in the epistles. That things are now lessening.
Look the fact of the matter is Paul spoke of sick people in Corinth in in 1st Corinthians 11. Some believe that Paul himself was sick in Galatians 4. So that would mean that it was never automatic all the time and you just push a button and it happened.
In addition to that you cannot get away from categorical promises. John 14 12 as to whoever believes that we should expect to to do the same things Jesus did which includes healing the in breaking of the kingdom that Reality remains the dunamis of the Spirit when did the quality of the Spirit change so that healing is no longer brought and and the The directive in James the fifth chapter is is quite general if if you're sad.
You should sing Psalms if you're sick call for the elders. We should come it says the prayer offered in faith. So it does require faith, but we should come expecting not saying if it be your will. I do pray with Expectation that it is God's will ultimately.
I don't understand everything that happens or why but I'm going to come with an expectation for healing. The thorn in the flesh is hotly disputed through church history in terms of what it actually refers to.
I read it differently I would say if you read all the Austin they are References in the previous chapters leading up to it. You might come to a different conclusion. When we look into church history Augustine had dismissed the gift of healing and miracles until he saw it happening.
He had document in a couple of years 70 miracles and changed his views. This is several hundred years after the close of the New Testament. The gift of healing is not explicitly apostolic. In fact, it's separated for the from the Apostles in the list that Paul gives in first Corinthians 12.
He lays it out in a separate way and this is something for the common good. No different than other gifts that are given as an expression of God's love in the presence of the Spirit and therefore we should expect to see these things the idea that that Widows would not be losing their husbands.
Perhaps that was not the strongest argument you've ever concocted but in point of fact We know that people were dying all along and resurrection from the dead is very rarely recorded once explicitly enacts possibly a second time if that refers to to Paul and What I see is a revelation of the character of God vis-a-vis sickness and health that it is his ideal will for his Obedient children to walk in health.
However, there are exceptions to the rule and in this world We're promised victory over sin and yet we often fall short. I also see that doctors and medical science with medical work in the Old Testament the New Testament were never precluded and Therefore a practical advice to Timothy would be fine and why Paul left trophemia sick somewhere.
I'm glad it's in the Bible because that takes pressure off me feeling I have to have some perfect performance so many points there that I undoubtedly will will miss a number of them in in passing but My point first of all I have to point out that the position you're taking is is not the position that I see from a vast majority of folks that Are gonna be lit tuning in and so I hope they're catching.
The fact that you are not saying that it is always God's will though you did just say That we should expect healing and it almost sounded like you said you did agree with the idea. We should not say according to thy will and I would strongly disagree with that.
I don't believe that there is any context whatsoever when when Jesus talks about saying this mountain be cast into the sea. The context is very clearly that promises for people who are Conformed and being are willing to be conformed to the will of God.
It's only for those people who desire to be in the will of God and to ever To ever think that we have some capacity in of ourselves to command the power of God. My whole point is that when someone is healed.
And I've undergone surgeries in my life I have seen people who were on death's door who have recovered. I believe that any healing is the work of God because I believe in God's sovereignty but God is free in the exercise of his gift of healing and I do differentiate between what we saw in the apostolic period with shadows healing people and what we see as the normative experience of God's free act within the church of Giving his grace because while we see people being healed We also see very faithful people not being healed.
That's why those passages that I mentioned are not just that things that should be dismissed as well. You know I'm glad Trofimus was mentioned there trofimus the context of that trofimus passage is that is that Paul is is being a alone, and here's one of his most faithful servants from Ephesus and He's had to leave him and my lead is sick.
What does that tell us that tells us that even the Apostles themselves? You you've used the the phraseology press a button and it's automatic. Well. That's what I hear a lot of. I'm glad you don't say that.
But unfortunately the vast majority of people who claim to have this gift today. Who are the most famous do make that kind of claim? They do claim that that it is always God's will and clearly it was not in trofimus's situation.
It was not in Timothy's situation. Here is a man that Paul says has frequent ailments. Why why did he have frequent ailments? And it is interesting the very same term that Paul utilizes of Timothy's ailments Asthenia is what he uses of his own and whatever Paul is talking about when he says my strength is made perfect in weakness would have to include my brothers and sisters who do not have whole bodies in this life and As a result are probably better prepared for life in heaven.
Because they're already totally dependent upon Christ and many of us who have whole bodies. And so one of the things I want to bring up in the further conversation is the fact that God uses suffering.
Not just suffering from external sources. But suffering in this life to conform us to the image of Christ who was the the very suffering servant. And so I think it's very important that we bring that out as well.
Okay, can I just pitch in? If we said no, would it stop you?
I mean we tried it over over dinner. So the the accounts of healing that there are post biblical. Would you put them on the same level as the accounts of healing within the New Testament?
Well the same level in Recording of them and the reliability of those. No if it's not scripture. I absolutely don't know. I also will not do what James just did which is build theology on experience. In other words, if a godly person is not healed I have compassion for them.
They may be the greatest person of faith I know. I'm not gonna say you don't have enough faith or Jesus is not shining you but I'll not base Theology on that any more than if we prayed for ten straight people and they were healed.
I would say that proves everyone's supposed to be healed. We have to base our theology on scripture and we don't have to Wonder about what God's will is because it's consistently revealed in scripture.
And I find it odd that you have really a mountain of verses about Healing and an expression of God's goodness and healing in Jesus manifesting the Father's will in healing and then a trophemus reference.
We don't know why he was sick. It could have been like a papyrus. It could have been over work and Paul said God had mercy on him. You know, he risked his life for the work of the Lord.
We don't know why in terms of the accounts that there could be a dilution of scripture or you could be equating. You know modern accounts or even historic accounts with scripture.
I'm looking at when people say that healing stopped. They're basing it on historical records. The historical records say the opposite. They have to be weighed. You can read some of the apocryphal and pseudepigraphical literature and its fantasy on every level.
But the fact is it's not just then if you look at a two-volume work like dr Craig Keener's miracles and a lot of the documentation that's in that and scientific documentation of healings today. It's clear that God continues to heal.
But scripture stands alone in terms of its authority. I know what it records. There happened I. I take Augustine as a reliable witness because he came in as a skeptic. But I don't know I can't quote that the way I quote scripture.
And then I have a question for you on foundations.
Don't don't you need to lay the foundations whenever there's a move of the spirit in church history. In other words There's an element of laying of foundations in a new environment a new.
Context of the church. Well, that's exactly what I think is going on in the extraordinary apostolic exercise of miraculous gifts. Even when Paul is going into a new situation, even when he is in a situation of being in prison you have the exercise of Healing in his ministry to demonstrate even prison walls don't take away the importance of what he's saying to all of Caesars household Etc, etc.
But the point is the Apostles were a gift of the church. That is not continued and I do not believe they're Apostles today in the way that Paul or Peter or John or James were Apostles. And so the question again becomes monolithic church on I know that's spiritually, you know.
The Lord is head of the church, which is his body, you know fullness of him who fills everything in every way. But you know, we're not talking about one church in many different cultures and environments around the world.
The Lord has built his church and The the ministry of Apostleship. Is that not. Is that not relevant, you know in.
As a continuing office of Apostle not of one.
I know there's one church. But you you will have and we know there's a whole proliferation of denominations and all the rest of them. But they've often started with godly men who've sort of.
Apostolic role. I would never identify those as Apostles. I don't think that's a biblical Phraseology, I think there is a. The problem is once you extend the office of a.
Until we all reach maturity, right? We haven't all reached maturity and the church hasn't fully reached maturity. Well.
There is and that's why we were built upon the Foundation of the Apostles and prophets Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone. Is Jesus Christ still physically in the world. No, the scriptures say that we are awaiting his return from heaven.
So are the Apostles still physically in the world? No, how is their teaching available to us in Scripture? And so it is that period of time then that is vitally important. This opens the door, however to further revelations of the Spirit.
The whole issue of the Canon is thrown up and believe me. Most of my experience dealing with this is dealing with Mormons and others who point those very texts and say here you go. This is why we have Apostles is why you need to have Apostles.
It's a little bit of a different issue. First I see it the same way that you do that. There are policies and prophets different from the foundation layers that the New Testament speaks of. It does designate others as Apostles not the twelve will have their names and the foundation stones in the New Jerusalem.
But it does designate others as Apostles and I see prophetic ministry continuing as 100 separate from Scripture. Which is the Word of God universal binding period for all time for all people. That being said I have no issue whatsoever With not debating the Apostle thing because the gift of healing is explicitly stated as something separate.
We see others operating and signs wonders and miracles other than the Apostles in the New Testament. We see Paul writing to the Galatians and saying Galatians 3 he who works miracles among you. This was ongoing just among them as believers.
We have again James 5 that it's just an automatic that your first response with serious illness you pray for the sick. We take it to be serious because the elders have to come but as far as potential abuses on that score I'm 100 with James that the Bible is God's Word period.
So if I'm praying should I do this? Take this invitation to come to to record on Revelation TV or do these live debates? I pray let's say I have a strong sense in my heart I'm to do it and someone else calls and says Mike I really sent you to take this invitation to do TV that hasn't added to the Bible.
This is now not a new chapter a new authority. So it's completely unrelated to the authority of Scripture and I stand totally with him on that but if we focus on the issue of healing gifts of healing according to 1st Corinthians the 12th chapter are Separated from apostolic ministry are a part of common body life or to continue until Jesus returns.
They're an expression of God's goodness and the presence of the Spirit in our midst and again with many other passages and promises we should expect God to do this and pray based on what he has revealed and if we don't receive answers to prayer and We have plenty of texts in Scripture making clear that inexplicable things sometimes happen like the book of Job.
We honor those for six. So again, I agree that that we can learn and grow in all kinds of different ways. The psalmist said it was good that I was afflicted. We don't know what the affliction was. But he said it was good that I was afflicted.
But I say that sickness in and of itself is not a good thing rather God. Working through difficult and painful and even negative situations can bring good out of it. But I'm not going to erect a theology of sickness based on that rather based on what God says about it.
Okay, we might come back to that unless you want to come notice something.
I think it's very very important and that is Michael just pointed out James chapter 5 or or Yaakov chapter 5. You would prefer actually wanted to go there, but yeah Jacob he's on a mission on that particular subject, but that that aside one of my major problems with and my initial invitation was to talk about healers not the gift of healing and I accepted that primarily within the context of recognizing that one of the major problems is That those who claim to have this gift in so many instances They're not the elders in the church in fact most of them would not even fit the parameters of who an elder is according to 1st Timothy 3 in Titus chapter 1 or 1st Timothy 1 in Titus chapter 3 they would not even qualify as elders and Notice that the the command of the church is call for the elders, and they will pray for the sick person now.
That has happened I'm sure Michael's been situations where he's been called to do this over and over and over again. That's within the church. That's within the local church. I see nothing about. Well, you know find the local healer who is going to be setting up at the local baseball stadium.
And he's eating something in using this argument that's that it could be applicable with elders today.
No, what I'm saying is the command well again I just I differentiate between what the Apostles did and what their successors do. I disagree with what was just said the saying well. It's the same thing.
No I don't think it's the same thing because one had the effect of Establishing the authority of the Apostles to give a scripture that has been finished the Apostles are gone. So that element is completed.
There is something different about the church today the gift of Apostles no longer. They're the foundations been given. Those other people who are called Apostles are people who are sent out by individual churches.
They're never called Apostles of Christ, and they don't give a scripture. They don't have that kind of authority there that is that they do not have that level of authority. It's vitally important. So when we talk about God healing today First of all it is within the context of the local church.
That you are to pray for healing if it was if it was an automatic thing. Why would you why would you get together and pray. The text raises the issue of if there is sin well that means there? Can be sickness that has nothing to do with the person's personal sin or anything along those lines and I was accused of building my theology on experience.
I would say most I think most people they just sort of stood back and looked at it would go you know what? The modern healing movements its primary emphasis is upon experience. And it's not just going well Jesus everything that Michael said about Jesus healing and all these other things is very very true.
But the question becomes is that something that is meant to be normative for the church throughout all of its experience or are we not led by these texts to recognize that there's a Transition and that therefore were to ask the question.
What is the role of suffering in the Christian life in regards to holiness?
Now you've mentioned authority and not attributing authority to a healer, but in Michael's opening statement he talks about the demonstration of the Spirit's power. I mean that there There's inevitably the Spirit's authority do you.
Well yes?
But do you first of all I don't think there is anyone called a healer in in the New Testament. There are people there is there is the mention of the giving of gifts interesting enough plural of Healings plural which we haven't gotten into what that might mean.
We haven't gotten into the fact that I think many of the applications of healing have spiritual aspects to it. They are spiritual healings and so often this is just limited to a physical aspect. And I think that's mainly because of our Western culture not necessarily anything else.
So there's all sorts of those issues We haven't even touched upon yet. But the the emphasis has to be I think upon asking a simple question and that is is God free in Healing individuals. Is he free or has he said to us.
It's up to you whether I will heal to see. I've heard that and and and I don't think that's Michael's position. But Michael has to I think look in the camera and go. I realize I'm contradicting a lot of the people you've heard teaching.
But this is why. But that is what I have heard over and over and over again is this idea that we have the ability to control this power and that we can bring about these healings and when someone sets up and Invites 10 ,000 people into a baseball stadium and says come and get your healing.
Are we actually saying this person has been given a divine understanding that everyone who shows up. It's God's will to heal them.
Okay, so answer that one then I want to I want to then put the other points, and this is you know. It's really a you know polemic is is is the Healing which is against your statements actually a means by which God can bring I'm sorry.
Sickness is a means by which God can bring Blessing and CS Lewis famously said it's pain is God's megaphone to the world without question.
God can work through sickness and God can bring blessing out of it. I do not say that according to Scripture God sends sickness as a blessing. I don't see that as a scriptural concept. Again I see a mountain of evidence against that and I want to make plain again that you have Philip and Stephen mightily anointed working miracles.
It has nothing to do with apostolic authority. The ongoing working of miracles among the Galatians by faith has nothing to do with Establishing the word or apostolic authority and there is a sacred responsibility on us.
The prayer offered in faith Will make the sick person. Well that that is what's written. Jesus often commended faith now. We can go from one extreme to the other. We can accuse this godly quadriplegic and say where's your faith?
Which is one of the cruelest things possible and some have actually turned away from the Lord entirely. Because of stuff like that on the other hand we can say it has nothing to do with us. It's just God's sovereign.
Will many things happen because we press through in prayer. Many things happen because like Jacob We said we won't let you go until you bless us. Luke 18 the parable of the persistent widow. It's there to tell us to keep crying out day and night and to hold fast in faith.
So the prayer offered in faith makes the sick person. Well I want to walk as a man of faith as an elder in the body I should walk as a man of faith where where I see the greatest. Demonstration of power is still as the gospel is going to the lost.
I have friends of mine that do evangelism work in in Africa the folks we work with in tribal regions in India that have planted thousands of churches as. They go out and declare the gospel and declare that Jesus is risen.
He makes it clear that he is alive and these are demonstrations of his love. Now notice. They're not abstracts demonstrations of power. He doesn't grow a nose on someone's head as an abstract demonstration of power, but it's a constant thing He's doing around the world.
It's it's impossible to deny that and in Craig Keener Says you have to have at least 200 million liars and false witnesses and deceive people.
But but about the dis the sort of distortion it brings to the structure of the church if if the healer as it were is Elevated to a higher position than they should be. Look.
In certain circles theologians get exalted and people don't study the scriptures for themselves. We have this tendency to exalt man, and where there is a gift of power. You're the crowds are you gonna come and worship you like with Paul and acts 14 or try to kill you you know?
So we have to be very careful. I stand with James in renouncing a lot of the showiness and the the celebrity gospel. And and the and as if it's coming from me as I've worked with folks that have preached the gospel they preach Jesus.
They preach him crucified and risen. They say he's the Savior the healer the deliverer. And really in the ancient world those are very related unified concepts. And then as they call out to him for salvation people are healed.
I've seen the testimonies of people who were blind who were crippled and when Jesus touched them they got saved. They've been following him for years. They realized he's alive. So again, this is an extension of the love of God, and I see universal promises that remain so no.
We do not have the same authority the Apostles had nor are we trying to mimic that. I do believe there are apostolic People that are planters that are pioneers similar to how you define it, but I have no problem if James sees that differently.
That's again not the argument I want to have but John 14 12 is a promise. Whoever believes in me Jesus says the works that I do which is referring back to miraculous words in the previous verses. He will do also and greater works than these will do because I go to the father.
So he goes to the father to intercede for us. He goes to the father and sends the spirit. If I base things on experience I would say well God heals sometimes. But you can't really know for sure and it's difficult to explain.
But I'm not going to build my theology on experience. But on scripture and say father bring the fullness of your kingdom the fullness of your power to glorify Jesus to touch a hurting and dying world and the major emphasis on suffering I see in the New Testament, and it's something largely missing in the West again I'm with my brother on that in terms of perfecting through suffering.
It's primarily in the New Testament Persecution for the faith that the great emphasis on suffering all those who live a godly life in the side Jesus will experience persecution blessed of those persecuted for righteousness if the world hates you remember it hated me first.
It's primarily suffering for the gospel, but yes through the crucible of suffering difficulty. We can grow in God the pattern to expect though is God bringing healing as opposed to God sending sickness.
Is there a qualitative difference between the healing today? And what took on it what happened and occurred in the in the New Testament? Qualitative in terms of and also raised. Is that also in the new tech.
Yes. And you know and limbs you know and and the like. But is there is there also a sense or? Accounts in the New Testament where the Lord didn't heal when he could have healed.
Well you could argue that Jesus passed the man at the at the gates. Beautiful. And acts the third chapter that Jesus had passed him and not healed. We do know in Acts the fourth chapter that they pray for God to stretch forth his hand that it was not even some automatic assumption.
But I do believe that there was a special Authority on Jesus in particular acts to he was accredited by signs wonders and miracles, so I believe there was a special Outpouring that in certain ways is unique, but are the dead still being raised are people born blind still being healed.
Are miracles like that still happening. Absolutely. As for limbs growing back the only passage that might say that is Matthew 15 about the maimed. That's debatable. But we don't have a lot of examples over at examples recorded of Jesus healing.
Here's an arm missing it grows in but the same quality happening. Certainly. Okay, right. Just a reminder.
For 15 minutes left of the studio. Discussion debate agreement unity and We're going to invite you afterwards. There's a number that you might want to note down. Oh two oh eight nine seven two one four zero zero.
That will be after the break in about 15 20 minutes and You can see the Twitter and the email details on the screen and the text number. James you must. I've given you hopefully enough ammo now.
Well well, there's there's too many things to try to get back to obviously, but I Hope that everyone recognizes, and I'm not trying to get Michael in trouble here, but if you take seriously what's been said so far a large portion of The most visible manifestations of people claiming to be healers has been condemned by both sides of this panel.
The fact that the vast majority of this takes place outside of the local church has been condemned by this panel and so. That may be a historic thing in and of itself. But I think it's important to point out.
But I do want to focus a little bit and I so appreciate the fact that that Michael recognizes this. My experience in listening years ago to some of the main teachers in this area was quite different than what Michael has presented here and Their idea of the fact that it's always God's will.
I Want to go back and and Michael made some comments about us the Naya. But I want to I want to I'm gonna focus upon this for just a moment in second Corinthians chapter 12 because you know Michael says well, I'm just going with the Bible.
Well. Both of us both believe we're going with the Bible. But obviously I believe you have to take everything the Bible has to say and listen to all of it. And I think it's and and if Michael says well, you know your experience is such well Michael's had experiences in his life that he admits are very very important to to who he is and Both of us have to be honest and analyzing those things and see and asking the question Might that really impact how I read the text?
Okay. That's one of the reasons I like interacting with Michaels. He forces me to think about that and hopefully I do the same thing for him. So that that's important, but but when you look at first Corinthians 12, Michael You use the term you pointed out the term dunamis, right?
The phrase in first Corinthians chapter 12 is Hey dunamis and as the Naya till I tie. My power is brought to and you know Telly oh is often the telos is the goal or and just as Christ is the telos of the law in Romans chapter 10 my power is perfected or or made complete in Austin I now.
Certainly Paul suffered from persecution of people. He was stoned. He was in prison. He was whipped all those things and I agree that external persecution is a major part of the suffering. But many of those people suffered when they were put in prison they then became sick they then became ill and there was no promise that in the midst of their imprisonment that there would be a Alleviation of that physical suffering and my concern is and you've seen this.
We go outside of Western culture. We get a headache and we run for the pills. These people don't have those things it's a everyday aspect of their lives to be to be dealing with bodily infirmity and. When when the scriptures Jesus this is Jesus on his own words.
I mean if we go with a red letter edition these these need to be in red letter. What does Jesus mean when he says my dunamis is? Perfected in Paul's Austin I now if you I don't know if you interpret that as a someone who was a opponent to his ministry or just how you understand it, but if it is a Thorn in his flesh if it is as you mentioned Possibly something with his eyes because it's mentioned you would have plucked out your eyes and given them to me.
And he says to the to the Galatians see with what large letters. I'm writing to you. Maybe there was something and made him rather unattractive to people in some type of infection or something if that was given to him by His own Lord to keep him from boasting.
Is this not a major means of sanctification in his life. And is it not the case that many people here, and I'm glad you're not saying this you're making. You're trying to make the appropriate Guarding statements, but most of the people that I've talked to you have have have felt a tremendous pressure upon themselves.
Because they were told if you just had enough faith right it's always God's will. Again I appreciate the sensitivity of where you're coming from and without question. You challenged me to think as as well and our experiences intersect with Scripture absolutely.
We have to constantly wrestle to let the text what God has said rule, but of course we look at those carefully. I do want to say plainly that having traveled in Pentecostal charismatic circles for over 40 years I've never heard someone identify themselves as a healer and That I've ever heard preached make clear.
I can't heal anyone. I can't heal a fly. It's Jesus who heals so that's what I've always heard proclaimed, and I have not condemned Ministry outside of the local church, or it's not just elders. I've condemned where attention is drawn to a person on unduly or Spoken against that just just to be clear if someone has been gifted a certain way in the body that can serve the common good.
So be it that the body is not just a local assembly, but let's remember in Paul's case. He speaks of the exceed. The exceeding revelations he had if you want to look at him as special because you know he's an apostle.
Then perhaps his experience is not normative either. I haven't had the revelations that Paul has neither neither of you. So I don't know that God is going to work like that to keep me Humble from boasting because of all the revelations because I'm not Paul.
But that being said that the weakness I see him speaking of there starts in 1st Corinthians 1 God chooses weak things to confound. The strong and then 1st Corinthians 2 I was with you in weakness and fear and much trembling and then he gets into it.
The theme comes out throughout the book in 2nd Corinthians the 10th chapter his bodily presence is weak. That's what the critics say. You know his letters are powerful his bodily presence is weak. Then he said I'll boast about the things that display my weaknesses.
And he then speaks of persecution suffering and all of this. So yeah, I know people could get sick. And if I have a fever versus I was just whipped. I don't know that there's a giant distinction in terms of how my body's.
I'm feeling beat up and not well. But God's dunamis being perfected through us. I see God working mightily through Paul. In other words, even though he is weak. He's ministering in the power of the Spirit.
He said in 1st Corinthians 2 that his speech and preaching were not with enticing words. But in demonstration of the spirits dunamis and said in 1st Corinthians for the kingdom God's not a matter of words only but of dunamis.
So I see not just a character issue there, but rather God working powerfully through a weak vessel. It would be as if I'm in a wheelchair. But when I touch people they're instantly healed. The dunamis is being perfected through me and it's clear.
It's not my strength that's doing it. It's it's God's strength again. I do see a general revelation of God's intent regarding healing literally from Exodus. You can even say Genesis 20, but especially Exodus all the way through the scriptures.
Reaffirmed however, I do not see the automatic nature. I see promises. I come to God. I do not say Lord if it be your will heal. I see I've been told to pray and expect. I say father. We're asking you to heal and there are times when I look in my own life and say I'm lacking in faith.
I do not have expectation for healing. So I believe in all of our lives there should be a building up in faith and in mark the sixth chapter Jesus himself doesn't perform many miracles because of the people's unbelief.
It would seem they didn't even bother to come and receive Francis. He just laid hands on a few sick folk and healed them. So unbelief can be a factor and if I'm thinking all the time, I don't know if God wants to heal.
Maybe he doesn't want to heal. Maybe he wants to be glorified my sickness to me. That's detrimental to faith so I want to come expecting healing and if I don't get it in this side of Heaven then I'm gonna grow through it and praise God in the midst of it and glorify him and serve him and believe he can Be glorified whatever situation I am, but I'm not going to now say God sent the sickness.
I'm gonna say I don't understand why I'm not healed, but I'm gonna worship and praise him in any case.
Okay, can I just ask you a question. You you said in your opening statement about the continuation from the biblical period on through Time. Where do you. I know this is a bit eschatological. But you know revelation is filled with you know, there are miracles in Revelation.
Where where does that fit in terms of your your view of it. Because that is surely set beyond the biblical period. Well.
I have a feeling that I'm sitting on an ejector seat at Revelation TV that will get rid of me as soon as I point out my Completely but Obviously the question would be when you're talking about miracles.
When you're talking about the book of Revelation I believe that book had meaning to the people to whom it was written and Therefore the vast majority of what it refers to was something that they could understand.
Not something is 2 ,000 years down the road. So it would you'd have to be specific as to what? Miracles you're talking about as to are you talking about the resurrection the two witnesses or whatever else it might be.
But see I would not see that as relevant to this Conversation for a simple reason and that is what was just being said by Michael. I think he was wanting to step back from something that I may be attributed and should not have attributed.
But I will reattribute it to myself. James chapter 5 says that we as Christians are to pray in faith and Ask God to heal. God tells us to to bring our burdens to him to to share our innermost wants and desires With him.
And any person who is sick and diseased wants to have relief from that suffering. There's no question about that and At this point we have to be. I think we have to become pastoral.
Just say in a situation that you know everything biblically is correct that the elders have been called in for healing. Would you expect?
Potentially any healing on a biblical scale well since I've seen it happen it can happen. My point is that it's God's free will to do so. Because at the same time it is God's free will to have first of all Death take place.
I mean the Bible says our days are written in his book. You know psalm 139 etc etc so The church has gathered. It's theologically correct. Well, obviously Michael and I start from a different perspective.
I'm I've you know I'm being healed. I've used to the end result. I've used sickness as the reason as as a part of this created order. And I believe God's sovereign over all of it. So he has a purpose and I believe that all sickness has a redemptive purpose.
All Evil that exists will have a purpose when we get to the eschaton and see what it what it was we may not see it. Now, but it will have a purpose. That's because I believe in God's decree and Michael and I disagree on that so that's going to fundamentally impact things.
But now is where we've got to become pastoral. I was a hospital chaplain and I was in the sick rooms. I was the one that would be called when the code bell went off. I was what had to take the family into the other room and inform them that their loved one had just died sometimes.
It was as young as a six-month-old child. So I don't come to this in in a pie-in-the-sky Theologian chair type of a situation. I had to deal with this directly in that context. Few years ago. We had a young child born our congregation born with a number of issues.
Wasn't expected but number of issues. The church prayed the elders prayed we prayed constantly we went to the church. She didn't live. She didn't live. We had a funeral now. How are we supposed to interact with that?
And if the idea is well, we're not to say if it is your will well Michael will say there will be times you can pray for someone if it's their time to go. It's their time to go. So was the do we not have enough faith?
No, it's not that there is a purpose in in God's Activity and so when Michael says well, we shouldn't be thinking is God gonna be glorified in my sickness. You see that's what I see Paul saying here. Is that these words that the Jesus spoke to Paul were not just because Paul had seen great revelations.
Anymore than the words in John 14 can be just limited in the context there I think they are words for all of us and for the person in whose life God brings. Especially the long-term illness. These are the very words of life.
This is what makes life worth living for them is that they are glorifying God in their patient endurance. And they are leaning completely upon him and being emptied of self. I think it's an important element of sanctification.
Could I just ask you you know almost putting it back to you as we're on the subject of sort of experience? There have been some spectacular cases of of people that have recognized healing ministries who haven't made it themselves.
Yeah, you know. And doesn't that you know have the danger of shattering, you know a whole community in terms of their faith. I've seen it in churches, but sometimes international, you know figures.
Yeah, much is given much is required. There's also more attack on people that if they feel they're special because they're gifted they become unaccountable. They become unteachable. They think they can play with sin.
You better believe. I was actually thinking of people that you know.
Actually had you know a problem themselves. It couldn't hold and you know, and and but.
Right if again though, I've I've seen issues. I've seen church splits and people backslide over that they feel that the pastor let them down a pastor of a church commits adultery and People lose their faith in God, so we're accountable and and we need to be honest.
Also, we need to say hey, I'm struggling in my own body as I'm coming to pray, but you know, it's interesting I was never a chaplain, but because I believe in praying for the sick. I've been shut in with people I've slept in the same room with with someone dying of a brain tumor.
So in the middle of the night if he gets up crying, I'm there to pray for him. We've agonized over these things and we've buried people as well. But just to say this Luke 13 Jesus as a woman was crippled by Satan for 18 years acts 1038 He heals those oppressed by the devil.
We have to recognize that not everything that comes is a gift from God, right?
We are we're down to our last few seconds. Thank you very much James and Michael, you know I'm sure we'll have time in the second half to continue this discussion. We're going to go for a short break five minute break.
Gordon will open up with your emails texts Twitters. Look forward to seeing you soon.