Does Presupp Require Reformed Theology

Opening Delay and Announcement of Upcoming Guests

Welcome back to another episode of Revealed Apologetics. I'm your host Elias Ayala and today. Well, we're supposed to have Emilio Ramos with us today. But this is an awkward situation where Let me tell you something.

This is the scary part of doing a show like this where you're reaching out to People to come on interviews and you get the different time differences and things like that and of course the people you're reaching out to are often super busy and You know, there's a whole bunch of things that can happen that you know make this sort of work unpredictable.

So We're supposed to have Emilio Ramos on today and I had messaged him emailed him. I hope he hasn't forgotten. And I've been trying to call as well. So We might not have Emilio Ramos it depends he may come in he may he may actually read his text messages or check his You know his email or something like that.

But I'm gonna try my best to stall for a little bit. Of course I if he ends up not being able to make it for whatever reason then I'll I'll. Maybe I'll take some questions or something like that. And maybe I'll try my best to Oh, look at this there, okay, so I'm getting a text let's see here.

Let me see. Let's see here. Hmm. Yeah, Eastern, okay one second this is this is awkward one second here I Believe The time I texted says Eastern Comment and you confirmed comment, lol exclamation point.

All right. There we go. So I think there is a mixing up of but we're in different time zones. So I think he is mistaken. What time we're supposed to start so he's texting me back and forth. I wonder if he's able to To join us.

So we'll see if not, I'll try my best to take on some questions if you guys have any questions with regards to Presuppositional apologetics or something like this. Daniel says what is this? What is what?

Come on, you know, sometimes these things don't they don't they don't go off flawlessly, so I'm just gonna wait a little bit to see if he's able to connect. Let me actually let me take I think this is hilarious let me take a screenshot of The time here we go.

I'm gonna go boom. Okay, look at this this is super awkward. Let's see here. Let's see. There we go. We'll see. We'll see how we'll see what happens so at any rate while I'm waiting for I Think it went through here.

Let's see what happens while I'm waiting for my guests to possibly connect possibly not. We'll see what happens. I guess I can make a couple of announcements. I will be having Chris Balt back on on June 6th, I believe.

If you guys you guys like the topic of Transcendental arguments. We had a great episode a Couple of months back on the nature of transcendental arguments. We get really into the thick of some of these great discussions of methodology and the nature of the argument and things like that.

So you guys can check that out on the on the YouTube channel and on the podcast. You might want to check out the podcast as opposed to the YouTube because I think Chris when we had him on He was unable to connect through video and so hopefully we can change that we can see his face along.

We can kind of have a good discussion. But you want to check that out. We're gonna have him back on in June 6. I did reach out to Gary DeMar if you guys are familiar with Gary DeMar you might if you follow American vision.

You will notice something very odd. Okay, and it's not a not a negative thing those of you guys who know a little bit about me and my interest in Presuppositional apologetics is that I've been greatly influenced by by dr. Greg Bonson and so Greg Bonson passed away in 1995 but if you have been following American vision it actually It actually looks like dr. Bonson published a new book.

Which is very very interesting given the fact that he is with the Lord right now. And so he Let's just say Gary DeMar was able to get some of the transcript one second here. Yeah, let's hear. Yeah Comma you are able to connect if you follow the link brother.

All right. So it looks like we will we will be having Emilio. He's coming on but yeah so Gary DeMar took one of the talks of Greg Bonson and put it into kind of a Transcript form and then kind of put subtitles and categorize various issues so that it can come out as kind of a book.

So the book is actually a transcript of a series of lectures that dr Bonson did and so I was given an early copy digital copy and so I perused through it and I thought that it would have been it would be a great resource for people who Want to learn presuppositional apologetics?

So the name of the book is against all opposition and I believe if I'm not mistaken It is available to order right now on American vision org. So if you guys are really Wanting to kind of dive into this stuff I mean Bonson in my opinion Bonson was really the best representation of Presuppositional apologetics in practice, of course.

He was a student of Cornelius Mantel as well. And so the insights that Bonson gives and coupled with his teaching ability I think makes for an awesome resource anything that Bonson puts out on apologetics.

You're gonna find very very Useful. I also reached out to dr. DeMar Because I wanted him to come on not just to advertise the book, but I he knew Dr. Bonson and so I wanted to spend some time discussing the apologetic legacy of Greg Bonson and maybe talk a little bit about some Of the personal side.

I mean he knew him a little bit, you know, and so maybe we can get some interesting you know Side stories perhaps something that we don't know about, you know, try to get some juicy information in it.

So Hopefully you guys can check that out. That's gonna be a great resource as well. I did reach out I'm trying to expand, you know get some interesting guests here I did reach out to David Bonson, Greg Bonson's son, which I have not gotten a response I a lot of people when you guys see the show and I have some really great guests on people think I have some kind of special connection With a lot of these people.

I I actually don't I know almost none of these people personally they just have been gracious to Respond to my emails. So it just happened to be that they have all responded in close proximity and so it has made for some great content back-to-back and so You know that that's that's that and we had Jason Lyle on the last show and that was really set up rather quickly I got in touch with You know the person who sets up his interviews and speaking engagements and we ended up having something you know.

The next day so that kind of worked out, you know in an unexpected an unexpected way, so So yeah, so we'll hopefully we'll get Gary DeMar to talk about the book Chris Bolt back on to talk more about a presupposed presuppositional methodology maybe compare it.

Presuppositional Methodology and Reformed Theology

Okay, all right, we're live now comma, but I'm stalling a bit comma lol exclamation point. Just follow the link whenever you catch a moment brother, I know you guys now know how I text I do my you know, my My voice to text sometimes it doesn't come out correct.

So at any rate, okay. So with that out of the way, there are a couple of other people I'm looking to get on. Some people have given some really good You know ideas as to who I should have on topics and I'm definitely going to try and You know get folks on that people really do enjoy and You know and that will find a great benefit in discussing these issues.

What I do appreciate about what? This has turned into Independent of just having guests on and stuff as I think this channel is is doing. Well in the sense that we've been able to cover presuppositional apologetics applied to a wide variety of issues and And I think that's very very important okay, one of the things that I that I had in mind when I wanted to do this channel was to not only promote presuppositional apologetics as a biblical approach as an effective approach but also I wanted the opportunity for for Misconceptions about the methodology to be cleared up.

Okay. That's why I especially had great response with the show with dr Michael Kruger when we talked about presuppositional apologetics in the canon and I actually received some personal Emails expressing how much they appreciated that show because dr. Kruger was able to kind of in that episode Explain the role of where evidence fits into the presuppositional method.

And so this is a common Misconception about presuppositional methodology that you know evidence is really just kind of useless. We just talk about world views and We can't really get into the nitty-gritty of some of these issues.

And so Hopefully these episodes have clearly Demonstrated otherwise and again at the end of the day if you are not a presuppositionalist and you don't agree with presuppositionalism. Okay, you know we disagree and and I'm not minimized minimizing that disagreement.

But as long as you understand what you are rejecting if you reject presuppositional methodology Then I think that there is there's progress. Okay, because I don't believe that people who don't Hold to a presuppositional methodology.

It's not the case that I it's not that I think they're Christian. Obviously, I have Christian brothers and sisters who don't hold to presuppositional apologetics but it's um, it's important that we understand the differences and that we continue to pray and support one another even If we might not agree with the methods we employ we might have different understandings of how we interpret the relevant biblical text.

You know, ultimately, I think I'm right, you know, I think the presuppositional method is is the biblical method. And I don't hold to a classical method, but at the same time we can still We can still appreciate The value that each of these methodologies offer one another even though we may not agree in all of its intricate Details.

Okay, so I think that's very very important to keep in mind. All right. All right well Let's move on. Okay. I mean, hopefully Emilio will come on. I'll try to address some of these questions, you know.

Okay, wow, you know last interview I did with with dr. Lau we did have a lot of questions. But it took some time for the questions to to come on. So I'm looking on the side chat here. It seems like there's a lot of questions here.

No, you didn't miss Emilio Emilio I think there was a miscommunication in the time because we're in different time zones. Okay, and so hopefully He's gonna be able to jump on but until then you're stuck with you're stuck with me.

All right. Okay, so let's take a look at some of these questions and I'll try my best to answer some of them to the best of my ability. And and just a side thing before I before I start I have to say That I'm quite impressed with a lot of the questions that people are asking and I'm not speaking of the questions that come from people Who don't like the methodology and they're just trying to you know Refute the methodology or ask a question to show like well, this is why it doesn't work.

That's fine. You know, that's part of the learning process I've been impressed with a lot of people who have been struggling in Understanding it and their perceptiveness with the kinds of questions that they ask and so keep asking those questions.

Even if we can't answer a question, I mean, I'm I look forward to being stumped only because I'm really hoping to Identify the weaknesses in my understanding so that I have something to look into study for and then firm up understanding and then use my My teaching and my opportunities to share to explain those things but great opportunities because of these videos.

I was invited To teach a class on apologetics at a school out in Michigan. And so we were able to take Q &A from high school students and college students. So had a great opportunity there and we have Followers of the YouTube channel from all over the world.

I've received messages from Australia the Philippines Vietnam All expressing interest in presuppositional apologetics. So this is very very exciting For me because that was one of the primary goals is to promote the methodology.

So it's really cool to see people engaged and interested from all over the world. So so with that said Let me take a look at some of these questions here. All right, so we have a question What is the precise relationship between Reformed Anthropology and the noetic effects of sin?

Well, yeah, there is a Very important relationship if we can kind of define our terms when we're speaking of the noetic effects of sin. That is relating to the issue of the effects of sin upon the mind.

Okay, and so within a Reformed Anthropology, we believe that man is made in the image of God. And that image of God is affected by the fall. Okay, the image of God if we were to reflect the image of God as one amongst many things the rational capacity.

There is a moral element that has been thrown into the loop given the fall of man. And so Within the doctrine of total depravity, for example Man is suppressing the knowledge of God that he has and so man functions in accordance with the image of God man Thinks, you know Rationally in one sense they try to think logically because that's an aspect of thinking God's thoughts after him.

But in their sinfulness, they suppress the knowledge of God that they have and so they interpret the world contrary to The knowledge of God they have within them. So there's a very important relationship between Our theology our particular Reformed understanding with regards to the nature of man and the effects of sin upon that man.

There is a very close Union between those two aspects. Okay. Now this is I think unique to the to the Reformed understanding and it is because of the particular understanding of of the noetic effects of sin upon man within the Reformed context.

This is actually one of the contributing factors as to why we do the apologetic that we do the presuppositional apologetic. So again, our apologetic is very much rooted in a Reformed understanding Of these issues and not just the issue of the noetic effects of sin but of it's also related to the understanding of The creature the creator creature distinction, right?

It's related to our broader Worldview our broader theology, you know issues of Providence, you know God's Providence and how that relates to things of induction and understanding the laws of nature all of these things are kind of related and I think that's the beauty of theology, right when we speak of Systematic theology we understand that every doctrine that we are Expanding upon and looking at the biblical data.

They're connected to other aspects of doctrine and so this is there is a relationship between the Reformed understanding of man and Our understanding of how sin has affected man's mind. Okay. It hasn't removed the image of God the natural man is in the image of God and he thinks God's thoughts after him to some degree.

But there's this element of suppression the effects of sin affecting what man does with the tools that God has created him with that instead of honoring God and Giving thanks to God they suppress the truth about him in the ways that scripture kind of lays out.

Okay. All right. Well Emilio is trying to message me here. I'm gonna you're gonna catch me doing my little voice the text here. Don't forget to put the link in Google Chrome not Internet Explorer. So now you see on the behind this I have no behind-the-scenes.

I you know, I was gonna do I was actually gonna take a picture of my desk. Everyone sees like the books and it kind of looks like oh, I didn't like this cool little office. The setup is pretty ghetto here.

I'm gonna let you know right now my computer in order for it to kind of Be measured up to my face. It is actually on a pile of books. Okay, I have a 1 2 3 4 5 6 books underneath my My laptop just to get the angle here.

By the way those books provide a firm foundation for my laptop the book that is holding all of the other books and Now is giving a foundation for my computer. You want to know what book it is? It is Vantil's apologetic readings and analysis.

I needed a thick book. So I put the thick book in there and then all the other books are stacking on it. So that's kind of a little bit of irony in all of this. So At any rate. All right. So let's let's take the next question and hopefully Emilio will pop in and he can join me and then we'll start the major Topic of our interview today.

Okay Daniel asks a very profound question. What is this? What do you mean what is this, okay. Okay, so here's another question by Daniel what do you think is the best book on precept of apologetics, okay well in My humble opinion the best book on presuppositional apologetics is by no means the first book that someone should Should look into when they're engaged in this it just happens to be my favorite because it's it's it's comprehensive nature.

And that is of course, I just mentioned it. Now. The book is resting underneath my computer. It is Vantil's apologetic readings and analysis pardon, and basically this book was written by Greg Bonson and it is a collection and Categorization of the writings of Vantil and all of the major Points of his apologetic are given commentary by dr Bonson in which he explains the areas where Vantil was very unclear.

If anyone knows anything about the writing of Cornelius Vantil one of the Criticisms of Cornelius Vantil's writing style is just how laborious it is. It's very difficult to read Vantil and really get at what he's.

You know what? He's getting at he uses the language of a bygone philosophical era. I mean his His context really is, you know, the philosophical idealism and the things that he was critiquing and so he speaks With a nuance and a specific way of describing things.

It's very different than the more analytic school of philosophy, which is more point-by-point premise-by-premise sort of way of communicating. So It can be very difficult. So I would say Vantil's apologetic if you want to get a nice Comprehensive commentary on on Vantil by someone who knew Vantil very well Greg Bonson.

That is an awesome book to get. Also, everyone knows, you know always ready. That's a great book. If you're just starting off, but as I mentioned at the beginning Gary DeMar over at American Vision has just released Against all opposition which this is a collection of transcripts of dr Bonson's apologetic lectures and they're put in book form with chapter categories and study and discussion questions.

So I have I've received an early copy of this Gary Gary like I know him. He's been on the show by the way a while back and you could find that episode on the the podcast. But I had him on earlier months and months ago and we Talked a little bit about Bonson and precept and he sent me over a digital copy and so I read at least half of the book and so you guys are really wanting to get your hands into some of The the useful ways that presuppositional apologetics can be used.

I Highly recommend this book against all opposition. And the reason is that the way Bonson wrote is not necessarily the way that he spoke as a teacher. Purely from a teacher's perspective Bonson was an excellent teacher.

And so you are Going to be reading within the context of how he taught using some of the helpful analogies and examples he used in the classroom. Okay, so Emilio is reaching out to me one second. Let's see here.

Did you follow the link on Google Chrome? You know, we're having Technical difficulties here. I don't know but I can't text really fast. Okay, so, okay. How about let me see this here. How about you call in and I put you on speaker?

With that work, we'll see if we can do it together. Well, we'll make this work folks. We'll make this work. Let's move on. Let's move on. And so what does Alyssa Scott asks? What does tag stand for? That's a good question.

Well, if you're not if you're not into all of this apologetics lingo a tag represents the Transcendental argument for the existence of God. So the trans T transcendental argument a argument for the existence of God.

So that's what tag stands for. Okay? Kieran says awesome. I love the Chris Paul interview. So did I as actually? People have asked me what my favorite interview is. I don't know if I can put my finger on a favorite but definitely the one with Chris Paul.

We cover some really interesting aspects of transcendental argumentation. So if you guys haven't listened to that one, I highly recommend you go back and listen to that episode. Definitely some good stuff.

All right. Here we go, we have another question in I'm in I'm new to presep. Okay, what's your answer on how do you know the Bible is true? Well this can be easily seen within the context of How do we know that?

Christianity is true. I mean if you understand the nature of the transcendental argument if we can sum it in its in its popular Formulation kind of this is just a catchphrase that needs to be transcendentally defended but oftentimes Presuppositionalists will say something to the effect that the proof for the truth of the Christian worldview is that if it were not true?

You couldn't prove anything at all. And so the very gist of the argument is to show that unless the Christian outlook on the world is correct Then one wouldn't have a foundation for knowledge for Logic for intelligibility or whatever.

Okay. So when you're asking the question, how do you know the Bible is true? And when you say Bible you mean by that there's 66 books of the Bible, which is the foundation of the Christian faith. Basically, the answer is going to be the same that the Bible is true Transcendentally if it wasn't true, you wouldn't have you wouldn't have a foundation for knowledge intelligibility or what have you?

Okay. Now here's a word of warning for people who use this phrase. Okay, and this is very popular on It's very popular within Popular discussions online is that when we say something to the effect that the Christian worldview provides the necessary Preconditions for intelligibility and knowledge, you know foundation for logic or whatever.

It's not enough to merely state that okay. You actually have to defend that right? We're not making this. I believe it's true I believe there is no other foundation that can ground knowledge intelligibility and logic.

But we need to go into more detail as to what does that what does it look like and. So there's gonna be more legwork. Apologetics is not, you know Presuppositional apologetics is not just this silver bullet approach where we just say these statements and then all of a sudden, you know The unbeliever disintegrates in our presence right and there's just not of course not right.

We're speaking with people. We're speaking with people who have questions. And and we are people ourselves. And so even though we might be arguing faithfully biblically and we are laying out the gist of the argument.

It doesn't mean necessarily that a we've been adequately clear. So that the person who is listening to us understands what we're saying, right? And the person might honestly not know what you mean when you say these statements.

Okay. So for example if I were to say the proof of the truth of the Christian worldview is that if it were not true. You couldn't prove anything at all. I mean the first thing that a person might think is well, wait a minute, you know I don't believe in Christianity, but I I could prove things you see so sometimes it's just an issue of I don't understand what you're Getting at with you know.

This methodologies argument you're presenting and so it's going to be incumbent upon the believer to kind of go into some of the details. And work through that with the person. Okay, we have to be very careful not to be so impatient with people.

You know, not every atheist or unbeliever or skeptic or whatever. Not all of them are just internet trolls who are just trying to get on your nerves. You know, there are those out there, you know, but not everyone is like that.

And so Nor is our average apologetic encounter going to be something done over the internet, you know. It's an amazing reality that many people are willing to say things on the internet that they would be willing to say.

When you're face to face with them, you see but when you're face to face face with someone most of the time it's not under such a people don't tend to argue in the same way they do on the internet and so You're gonna have more of hopefully a more respectful conversation, you know they're able to read facial expressions and body language and there's more of a somewhat hopefully a respectful interaction between the two parties and so.

So I think we need to be willing to go a little deeper than some than we sometimes do and stay away from just Presuppositional tropes and platitudes that we really need to make sure we understand The nature of what we're arguing for and walk the unbeliever through that and engage in a respectful back-and-forth remember first Peter chapter 3 verse 15 says to set apart Christ as Lord in your heart always being ready to give a reason for The hope that's in you yet doing so With a gentleness and respect so that that's a very important key to all of this.

Okay. All right. Let's take on the next question here Eli. Can you go more into some of the reasons you believe the unbeliever? I think we have a meal you're almost on. Let's see if this works. Okay. Hey brother.

How's it going? I'm doing all right. Are you having some difficulty connecting there?

This link and It wouldn't it was not allowing me to use my microphone or my camera. I tried everything on my settings and stuff. So I have to I'll have to go back in and and get some help with that because I'm kind of like you.

I'm not much of a techie. So not sure your audience can hear this, but if you can make it work.

Yeah, yeah, let's let's see. Let's see if if folks can give me a thumbs up or in the comments. Are you able to hear Emilio on my phone? We're gonna do this in a little getaway. But we'll make it work just like Hollywood says there's a Broadway.

The show must go on right if you guys can. You guys can put in the comment if you can hear him. Okay, and then we will. You know, we'll take it from there. So I got a couple of thumbs up. Yeah, some people are doing thumbs up here.

I got a text the audio is good. I.

Should probably talk a little bit. So make sure people can hear that. Yep. They say they can hear you.

Okay. All right, so so good. All right. Good. Yeah. All right, so I'm going to put this question on well I mean, let's see here. So Eli, can you go more into some of the reasons you believe the unbeliever cannot know he exists?

Okay, I understand the problem with Descartes syllogism and I have a few other arguments myself. Okay, let me answer this one question real quick and then we'll start and we'll we'll we'll join you into the conversation.

Because we're having some technical difficulties. Yeah, so it so my argument is something like this if I just to popularly put it out there. All right. So the proof of the of the the Christian worldview is that if it were not true you couldn't prove anything at all.

And so some or you couldn't know anything at all and someone will say well, what about my own existence? I think therefore I am. Okay. Now you have a couple of criticisms of of Descartes syllogism here.

Number one that it is intrinsically circular and that the conclusion is embedded within the starting point. So you you have the the syllogism I think therefore I am. You got some circular issues there, but even if we were to grant like fine.

Maybe it's not fallaciously circular. We if I were to be nice and I woke up one morning have a cup of coffee and I was like, yeah I don't wanna argue that point. Um, the problem with this is when you start with existence.

Independent of a broader worldview context to be perfectly honest. I don't even know what I means. What is I? You need a broader metaphysical context that can define the I otherwise I would be a meaningless Concept.

I don't even know what it what is what does it mean to exist and then be able to differentiate yourself with other objects? It would seem to me that you'd have to have knowledge of a broader metaphysical context to even make sense out of that.

Number two, even if you are presupposing your own existence. You're not just merely presupposing your own existence when you say I think therefore I am and you speak that proposition. You're also presupposing the laws of logic because language presupposes logic.

And so the person who says well, I don't start with anything except my existence and work from there. Well, they're not really just starting with themselves. They're starting with other metaphysical commitments that are embedded within that very statement.

And so whatever worldview they're gonna be starting with it's gonna have to be able to ground All these other things also if you start with yourself. There's no way to logically move from I exist and therefore there is the reality of the external world.

And so if you start with Descartes, I don't see how one could Escape what is called in philosophy the egocentric predicament? There's no way to get outside yourself if I even granted that you're able to define yourself without a broader metaphysical context.

So again, that's just a thumbnail sketch of where I might go with someone who holds to that position. But obviously that's a much broader conversation that we don't have time to go into in detail here.

So, I hope that is sufficient Chris and with without further ado, I want to welcome a brother Ramos on the show.

Reformed Theology, Evangelicalism, and Confessional Boundaries

Good to be with you. Eli. I apologize for the technical difficulties and Also for the time scheduling I was a I was. I got a little bit confused in the midst of all the Hustle and shuffle over here. I apologize for that.

We'll have to do something again, and I definitely would have. I definitely will like to bring you on to my show and we can.

Continue to have further conversations sure. No problem. That's it. This happens. I mean we have the time difference, of course, and I Was looking back on the text messages and I realized that I did say 1 p .m. Eastern.

However I'm not pretending that when you read my text messages. You're just sitting around doing nothing, you know. Imagine you're busy and it's easy to lose track and stuff. So no worries there brother.

All right. So let me remind folks of the nature of the topic today that I the reason why I had Emilio on and it is exploring the relationship between presuppositional apologetics and Reform theology. Okay, and so I want to explore that a little bit with Emilio so that people can see why.

Why is it the case that? Presuppositionalists tend to be reformed in their in their theology. Okay. And then after that we'll continue on in the questions and then we can grill Emilio if he's up to it With some of some of the listeners questions.

I'm sure people will enjoy that. Okay. All right. So let me start with my first question that I have for you Emilio and so that we can define our terms here and When we're talking about presuppositionalism and reform theology, let's define what is reform theology as you understand it and then we'll move on from there.

Sure. Yeah. Well reform theology I think Has been defined and the way that it's been defined I guess in a formal way has been through the various confessions and the statements that have been written.

For example, the Westminster Standards and then later, of course and things like that. And then also that the the statements regarding reform theology. That have a lot to do maybe getting closer to what we want to talk about, you know in terms of Calvinism and soteriology.

That's been that's been defined by the various souls that have been given throughout the Reformation right the sola the five solas of the Reformation and then the five points of Calvinism that have also emerged which of course were response to Catholic theologians and things like that, but I like to just summer summarize it by saying that reform theology consists of the ten points the five points of Calvinism and the and the five solas of the Reformation and really it's a It's a distinct vision of God in a vision of redemption That separates us from other traditions were as in the reform tradition.

God is Stopped, you know meticulously sovereign. Mm-hmm. Many in traditions are less than To use a Bantill phrase less than consistent Calvinism you have other evangelical and Arminians my Pelagian type ideas of God's sovereignty and how that salvation how that affects the salvation so that's kind of a general approach to reform theology.

So now how would how would reform theology differ if from the more like evangelical flavor of Christianity out there.

Yeah, well again, I think the more evangelical type theology that's out. There is really Hodgepodge really of ideas and and really a lot of evangelical theology out there. Really is Non-theological it has no theology.

It's kind of open-ended and that's why it's given rise to all sorts of you know, all sorts of different expressions of theology going all the way from maybe like a classical Armenian position to a Semi Pelagian position and then you know, also all kinds of things can arise in evangelical theology.

But but no, but reform theology, of course stresses the idea that God works Not just as a sovereign God, but God also works covenantally and so that God in the covenant of redemption has chosen the people through Jesus Christ and through his work and that's really not the feature of evangelical theology.

Things like the covenant of redemption and. Really when we're talking about reform theology reform theology has always almost always been covenantal. With the rise of dispensationalism, I think You can have someone who's a Calvinist, but not necessarily reformed.

Thoroughly reformed in their understanding of the covenants. That makes sense. Yeah.

No, that makes that makes a lot of sense now if you can expand on this a little more. You said something to the effect that Evangelical theology tends to be open-ended. Is that the word you used or open?