A WOW Moment with Vicki, Mercedes and Pastor Jeff

Can you see it from there? You'll get one verse per page. That's why it's so big. Hey. You're on. Hello everybody. Can you give it a minute? You should tell everybody about your new Bible, Deb. I'll hand model it.

Where do you start in Mercedes? Peter? At the beginning. In the beginning. No, I was going to start literally at the beginning of my notes. It acts? Yes. Good evening, everyone.

The Study Begins with Acts and the Question of Christ Descending into Hell

Welcome to our Bible study. As you know, I'm Vicki. I think you all remember Mercedes. And you might know this is our lovely.

And very orange. Pastor Jeff tonight.

Because she wore an Alabama shirt. Go Vols.

I'm going to play neutral here. Anyways, tonight we are actually going to be in a study that Mercedes and I have been in for several months. We started this study before COVID hit. We were studying it every Sunday.

Then we started studying it every Sunday and Tuesday. Then we started studying it every Sunday, Tuesday, and Thursday. Then we decided we'd end our study tonight. Pastor Jeff, so if you have any comments, questions, or anything like that, tonight I will ask you to please comment.

Usually we do not do comments because we can't see the phone, but we have loving and caring Miss Gwen here, and we have beautiful Miss Ashley here, and we have the handsome Jeff here. They're going to help us tonight with that.

What I'm going to ask of you, Pastor, is for you to let Mercedes get through all of the notes we have from the study, and then we're going to let you loose. Okay. Good job. Richard Sammons is watching.

He said,.

Hey Bishop. What's up, Richard? Bishop,.

I'm sometimes going to do Medusa. That's what Rebecca calls me, Medusa, sometimes.

Madame Medusa. Madame Medusa. Yeah, that'll work.

So, anyways, I want to thank Gwen and Pastor for having us. This is the second time we've been here, and it's always a joy to come to the shipments. We're glad to have y 'all. So, Mercedes, we're going to read the scripture tonight, read, so if y 'all want to grab a pen or some paper to just jot down as we go, that's great, because this is going to get real interesting, and it may be longer than 30.

Minutes. Oh, I'm pretty sure it will be. Just to give you a fair warning. All right, where are we going to start out? All right, well, while we did this study, I really learned what Harmony did to us, and so the key verses that are used a lot in the argument of if Christ ascended into hell after His death, I pulled before, at least a verse before and at least a verse after, just for context purposes.

And I kind of realized that harmonies are super important when flipping between New Testament.

And Old Testament, because Old Testament's Greek, I mean Hebrew,.

New Testament's Greek. So things translate a little bit differently. Some words apparently have multiple, can have multiple meanings. So Acts 2 .25 is one that is used, but I went 2 .25 through 28. Acts 2 .25 through 28 says, for David says of him, I saw the Lord ever before me, because He is at my right hand.

I will not be shaken. Therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced. Verse 27. Because you will not leave me in Hades, or allow your Holy One to see the cave, you have revealed the paths of life to me.

You will fill me with gladness in your presence. Paul is quoting from Psalm 16 7 through 10, which says, I will praise the Lord who counsels me. Even at night, my consciousness strikes me. I will keep the Lord in mind always, because He is at my right hand.

I will not be shaken. Therefore my heart is glad, and my spirit rejoices. My body also rests securely. For you will not abandon me to Sheol. You will not allow your faithful one to see the cave. So, in Acts, the word Hades is used, and in Psalms, the word Sheol is used.

Sheol is Hebrew. I use the Strong's Concordance as a KJV. And the definition it gave me for Sheol was the world of the dead, including its accessories and inmates, parentheses, grave, hell, pit. Hades is Greek, and it's the place or state of departed souls, also grave or hell.

So in context with how Hades is used and how Sheol is used, I'm really leaning towards both of these both mean grave. We know that your faithful one, or your holy one is referring to Jesus. He did not see the cave.

He died.

He was buried. He resurrected. Well, just like in Acts 2, in this other, in my study Bible, in verse 27, it says for you will not leave my soul among the dead.

Right. And we know David, he did die. He is in this tomb. His physical body has seen decay, but he will not remain there because he will be resurrected again one day. Right. So, in my mind, that one kind of doesn't hold up.

It holds a lot. It doesn't. Then we've got Romans 10, 6 through 8, verse 6 being the one that is, or verse 6 through 7 are the ones that are being used for this argument by a lot of people. But 10, 6 through 8 says but the righteous that comes from faith speaks like this.

Do not say in your heart who will go up to heaven, that is to bring Christ down. Or who will go into the abyss, that is to bring Christ up from the dead. On the contrary, what does it say? The message is near your heart.

This is the message of faith that we proclaim. This is quoting from Deuteronomy 30, 11 through 14. This commandment that I give you today is certainly not too difficult or beyond reach. It is not in heaven, so that you have to ask who will go up to heaven, get it for us, and proclaim it to us, so that we may follow it.

And it is not across the sea, so that you have to ask who will cross the sea, get it for us, and proclaim it to us, so that we may follow it. But the message is very near in your heart, or very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, so that you may follow it.

This one,.

This one is saying that Christ is accessible as long as we have him.

And the word in our hearts and our mouths, he is always accessible. Whereas, heaven and our physical nature and the depths of the sea are not. So, it's kind of a compare and contrast. Not a compare and contrast, more of a contrast.

Both two places inaccessible for us as humans, but God is accessible to us. This doesn't, it doesn't seem.

Like this holds up in my mind. Any.

Thoughts, Vicki, so far? No, this.

Isn't the verse I was thinking of. Go ahead. Then we have Ephesians 4, 8 through 10. 4, it says when he ascended on high, he took prisoners into captivity, he gave gifts to people. But what does he ascend mean except that he descended to the lower parts of the earth?

The one who descended is also the one who ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things. This is quoting Psalms 68, 18. You ascend to the heights, taking away captives. You receive gifts from people, even from the rebellious, so that the Lord God might live there.

So, for this, in Ephesians where it says he took prisoners into captivity, kind of thinking that would be maybe sin and death, and he gave gifts to people. He gave us grace and mercy and forgiveness and.

Life and peace. All that encompasses. And that's the gift to give to captives. Yeah.

But also, in Ephesians 2, 2, Paul talks about walking according to the ways of this world, according to the ruler who exercises authority over the lower heavens, meaning, and I kind of think, well, in 2, 2, when it says exercises authority over the lower heavens, this is the devil's playground, so to speak, where we are.

And he has principalities and dominions, is that the right word I'm looking for? And so, if you look at Ephesians 2, 2, and see where he talks about the lower heavens, and then you go to Ephesians 4, 10, where it talks about the lower parts of the earth.

I don't think that's meaning hell. I think that's here. Not only that, though, but to ascend, you have to first descend. He could not have ascended to heaven if he had not descended to earth. And he descended to earth in the form of a baby.

So, if he would have gone to, if he would have actually gone to hell, then he would have descended. Right. He would have descended. Yes. Right? That's descending. That sounds right so far. So then, 1 Peter 4, 5 through 6 says, they will give an account to the one who stands ready to judge the living and the dead.

For this reason, the gospel was also preached to those who are now dead, so that although they might be judged by men in the fleshly realm, they might live by God in the spiritual realm. I think this is talking about those who are spiritually undead, separated from God, who are now made alive, no longer separated from God, and while we walk that according to the ways of the Lord on earth, we will be judged by the unbelievers.

We will be looked at differently. Because, well, we're supposed to anyway, because we're set apart. But, I think that's what that's talking about. I don't think it's, I don't see that as being another one I could point to him descending into hell.

We're, we're, okay. Are we? You're right. That's what we've discussed. I'm just trying to, you know my brain doesn't work as fast as yours. So you get that at home. Yeah, right.

You'll get there one day, baby. That's what I keep being told. So here's the meat of it for me. And this is where I've kind of come to a standstill. 1 Peter 3, 18 through 20. For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring you to God after being put to death in the fleshly realm but made alive in the spiritual realm.

In that state, Joseph went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison who in the past were disobedient when God patiently waited for the days of Noah while an ark was being prepared. Then 2 Peter 2, 4.

For God didn't spare the angels who sinned but threw them down into Tartarus and delivered them to be kept in chains of darkness until judgment. Then Jude 6 through 7 says,. And as kept was the eternal chains in darkness for the judgment of the great day.

The angels who did not keep their own position but deserted their proper dwelling. Tartarus, in the strontium cornus that I use, is Greek and the definition is to incarcerate in eternal torment or hell.

These three verses, I'm sorry, these two verses, are there two or three? There's three. These three verses led me to Genesis 6, 1 through 4. Right? We've been around the world a couple times. When mankind began to multiply on earth and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of mankind were beautiful and they took away or they took any they chose as wives for themselves.

And the Lord said, My spirit will not remain with mankind forever because they are corrupt. Their days will be 120 years. The nephilim were on the earth both in those days and afterward. When the sons of God came to the daughters of mankind and bore children to them, they were powerful men of old, the famous men.

With 1 Peter 6, 18 through 20, my first thought was how to take away the punctuation. Read all of it kind of in one breath, but made alive in the spiritual realm. In that state, he also went and made a proclamation to the spiritual realm when the pastor disobeyed.

When God patiently waited in the days of Noah. So I went, okay, well, maybe it's saying that Noah, while preparing the ark, was preaching to the people around him about what was going to happen, trying to get them to repent, give their life to Christ.

But it would be the Holy Spirit that would be speaking through them.

Because they were interested within their sinful lives. Within their sinful lives. Right.

But then when I read 2 Peter in June and then Genesis 6, she went nuts. My mind changed a little bit. I became unsure. Because we were set. We were set. We were pretty set. And so now I've gone, I've teetered back and forth and now I'm kind of right smack in the middle.

Vicki, I don't know where you stand.

With all of this. I'm still standing on and my thought is that Jesus didn't descend to hell. He's God. He didn't have to go there. If he wanted anything from there. That was my, that was another thought I've had too.

The Holys don't have to go to the depths of hell.

He descends to hell. Mike drops. Told you so. Proclaims victory.

But, He's God. Why would He need to do that? I don't believe that.

You know, when Peter denied Christ three times, smack in the middle of his last.

Denial, the ruse occurred and he went, oh, crap.

Jesus didn't say, I told you so. He just kind of looked at them. There was no I told you so because he didn't have to. Because Peter knew as soon as he said it. But we also know that once you're dead, you don't have a second chance of repentance.

You don't have a second chance of going, um, hey, wait a minute, God. Can I have a do-over? Well, see, and then there's.

And that's how this whole thing started is because I've heard different things about keys and of course I've not read anything or seen anything scripturally about keys. We haven't run across that. But it's one thing that was brought to my attention whenever I first started discussing this with a few people.

So I kind of tossed that out the window, but I see why you kind of did a boomerang on coming back around and questioning what we.

Had studied thus far. Well, and then I think another question that should be posed is, is hell empty? I mean, if if he descended into hell, there should have been. I'm assuming there would be a reason, not just for the fun of it.

Right? So there's that. That's what I got.

So that's where we've been since February. Not only that, but then we've just sat back and just discussed like I told you before we started this, we squirreled so many times with so many different directions, we've now got a list of things that we want to study when we finish this because we've run across a whole bunch.

Of other stuff. Yeah, y 'all got into the Nephilim. I mean, dang.

So you know, I mean, but there's an array of things because the Bible carries so much information. It does. So, and it's really really, really, really interesting. Very much so. Well, I give you.

A pluses, definitely. And that's that's the essence of systematic study. Of course, it wasn't exhaustive obviously because we're never going to exhaust it, but systematic theology, systematic study is a great way to answer theological questions and also to give credence to a doctrinal understanding.

And I appreciate your adherence to a harmoneutical logic and a harmoneutical truth. But I think you really already know what you believe because every time you read, you said, yeah, that doesn't hold water.

Yeah, that doesn't hold water. Yeah, that doesn't make sense. Yeah, that doesn't. And so as the verses were coming out, even though they have been used traditionally to talk about Jesus going to hell, you, through your studies, and then you did a great job, you came to a conclusion based upon the comparison with the doctrinal truth found from Genesis and Revelation.

If I could just respond to a couple of things. Well, first of all, it's important to note that Jesus, throughout his ministry, continually alluded to, and then there in the last part of it, especially you get to the last half of the book of John, John's really cool because the first half of John deals with everything and then the last whole half of the book of John, of the gospel of John, just deals with the last week of Jesus' physical life.

And Jesus said many times, I'm going to be arrested, I'm going to be beaten, I'm going to be shamed, I'm going to be killed, and I'm going to rise again. And he was very specific on the sequence, he was very specific on what was going to happen.

The interesting thing to note, though, is that he never said, I'm going to hell. Nowhere in Scripture did Jesus ever say that. We also know that what Jesus did say, of course, is the thief on the cross, he said to him, today you will be with me in paradise.

And I don't think there would be anyone who would confuse paradise with hell. The other thing about this is this has gotten so much over the years. Of course, most people in churches today, they're so doctrinally ignorant, they don't even deal with studying some of these harder nuggets of theology.

But the reality is we have listened to this, and it gained traction early on in ecclesiastical history because of what was known as the Apostles Creed. If any of you guys grew up in the Catholic Church or some other churches you will actually remember saying and he ascended, or he descended into hell, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

What's funny is the Apostles Creed was not written by the Apostles at all. Yeah. It was actually written to try to get an understanding of the church tried to make a creed and to sum up in one phrase the Apostles teaching.

That's why it's called the Apostles Creed. But it wasn't written by the Apostles. And a lot of denominations have removed that phrase he descended into hell because it is vapors of even verses that could even be turned to even believe that.

Wasn't it only mentioned once by.

Rufius? Wow. Yeah.

One of the better theologians that talked about this is a guy named Gruden. He's very famous. I encourage all of you. He's someone you could definitely listen to. There's another issue here, and it gets into a doctrinal issue.

And once again, I encourage all of you, whenever you have questions about God's word, and this is an example of what you should do, is don't listen to preachers, don't listen to whatever. You dive into the word of God.

Everything she was quoting was scripture. But the thing that you've got to look at is atonement. When I hear people say, well, I have to do this to be saved, immediately a red flag goes up for me because it is by grace you are saved through faith, not of yourself.

See? And so when something violates the construct of a doctrine, and remember, doctrines are something that are spoken of from Genesis to Revelation, and they don't contradict any other doctrine. So if someone sits there and says, well, hey, Jesus went to hell, one of the red flags that should pop up to you would be atonement.

That would be one of the things to do. When Jesus died on the cross, he said, it is finished. The atonement, the reason Jesus died, that substitutionary atonement, in other words, he took my place there, and the propitiation, i .e., God's wrath turning from man turning to Christ.

The wrath of God fell on Christ. But when Jesus said, it is finished, there would need no other action. It was needed by Christ to fulfill the salvation of mankind, of the reconciliation, the bridge back to God.

Now, some people say, well, what he did is he went to hell to give the Old Testament people a chance for salvation. Well, there's a problem with that, too, because the same faith that saved Abraham in the Old Testament is the same faith that saved Paul is the same faith that saved me.

God didn't change anything. Jesus Christ was always going to cross. In fact, in the book of Revelation, it says that Jesus was actually slain before the foundation of the world. The will of God is so immutable and so perfect and so sovereign that even though from our paradigm on a linear time frame, Jesus had not yet died before the foundation of the world by the will of God declaring it, it is as if it had already happened.

So, the idea that Jesus had to go to hell to give people in the Old Testament a chance is erroneous because we know Romans chapter 4 and chapter 5 and many others that the same imputed righteousness that was given to Abraham because of faith is the same imputed righteousness given to us.

And that's really important because that righteousness is from the finished work of Jesus and Abraham was imputed 4 ,000 years before Jesus was born.

So, it was Abraham's faith in God.

Not... It's the same thing. Right. Because Jesus.

And God are the same. Well, correct. But Jesus... Jesus.

Completed the physical work. Leviticus 17 and other places tell us that life is in the blood and without the shedding of blood Hebrews 9, without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. So, Jesus had to come and be that sacrifice and all the sacrificial laws of the Old Testament were a foreshadowing of what Jesus would complete.

However, saying that you still had to have faith in coming Messiah, in the promises of God. Remember the first allusion to... Well, the first... I shouldn't say allusion. The first promise of God of reconciliation was in Genesis chapter 3, verse 15.

And it went on from there. Jesus completed, and that's what Ephesians 1 talks about, it's dispensation, the management of time, the dispensing of God's revealed will over time. Jesus was always going to go to the cross.

There was nothing that was going to stop that. So, the other thing is a couple of the verses you did a really good job. I'm really happy about some of the things you did. Just some things. Read again, if you will, Ephesians 4, 8 through 10.

And let's go through that expository and let's see if we can't make some more sense of that.

For it says when he ascended on high he took prisoners into captivity. He gave gifts to people. But what does he ascend mean except that he descended to the lower parts of the earth. The one who descended is also the one who ascended far above all the heavens that he might fill all things.

What's really cool is to understand this, is that the advent of Jesus and that is his incarnation is his descending from heaven to earth. When he, and you actually said this, when he became man, when he became incarnate, that was a descent from the regalness of his majesty in heaven to actually taking on a decaying body.

We all know through entropy that all mankind decays. Some people say he descended, meaning that he descended lower into hell. Well, that's not at all what it's saying. If you continue reading it kind of spells it out because as you read it started talking about the earth and so therefore Jesus had descended from heaven to earth.

The other thing is, and this is something Christians that, I hope you record this and play it back and write this down because it is confusing, but and I'll try to explain it. First Thessalonians and some other places, it talks about the dead in Christ.

You have to understand that there are only two groups of people. Much to the chagrin of some of the more politically motivated people today in identity politics, there's not many races of people. There's only one.

There's not a difference between male or female according to Galatians, Jew or Greek, bond or free. That we are all one in Christ. So there's only two groups of people. By implication of saying that we are one in Christ means by default that all Christians are one and they are in Christ.

The other people that are not in Christ, well those two groups are referred to as being alive and being dead. Okay? Ephesians chapter two tells us that we were dead in our sins and trespasses. Literally, ladies and gentlemen, if you are not a born again child of the living God, you are dead in your sins and your trespasses.

So there are people who are walking around physically right now who are alive in Christ and then those who are dead. But then you have a separate group of people and once again, First Thessalonians 4 is a great chapter for you to go and read this.

The dead in Christ. Now who are the dead in Christ? Well what that means in that prepositional phrase in Christ is really important. It means those that have physically died yet are still in Christ. Meaning that our trichotomy, our body, we have a mind, a body and a spirit, a soul.

Okay? And I know there's some discussion about soul and mind but let's just say we're a three part thing. Genesis chapter 1 verse 26, that we were created in the image of God. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.

We have a mind, we have a body, we have a soul. Right. So when it says the dead in Christ, it means that our bodies, our physical bodies are dead, thus releasing our spirit. Well, if we're in Christ, our spirit is with Christ and that hence is why Jesus said to the thief on the cross today you will be with me in paradise.

So his body was taken down. In fact, that thief's body, we know according to tradition and legal state, he was thrown into the valley of Gehenna. That physical body was thrown into the garbage dump. Yet his spirit was with Christ.

So you have Christians who are alive in Christ and then you have Christians who are dead in Christ. They're physically dead, yet spiritually alive. They are physically alive and spiritually alive. Does that make sense?

You mentioned Gehenna. I've heard that word. Can you define it?

Gehenna is another word in the Greek that is used for hell. And what it was in the valley of Gehenna, here's if you kind of think of like this being kind of a hilltop and Jerusalem's up here. One of the valleys, when you go down the hill, one of the valleys here is called the valley of Gehenna.

And basically it was the city garbage dump. And you would throw stuff over there. Have you ever watched what's it called when you put grass clippings and organic garbage together? Compost. If you've ever watched a compost pile of course a chemical reaction takes place the breaking down of organic matter and it actually will start giving off heat.

You have an exothermic reaction. It starts giving off that heat. Well, that was one of the pictures that Jesus used in describing hell. He says where the fire doesn't go out the worm dieth not, that maggot.

So that picture that he is painting of hell, he was using that city garbage dump, that decaying, burning mass, and that maggot infested mass to describe hell. That's what Gehenna.

It's a word that she used. Isn't that the same, basically the same thing with Lazarus and the rich man?

Okay, okay. Sorry about the trail. No, no, no. I tell you what, let's save that for another, because Luke 16 in and of itself, paradise and heaven, are they the same thing? Are they different? The bosom of Abraham is all that the same.

That's a beautiful discussion and I have a definitive answer I believe for that. Finishing this up because those enchiladas are smelling really good. The other thing is this, is that Christ, the reason he came, died, and was resurrected, he is the firstborn, Corinthians tells us that Jesus is the firstborn among many brethren.

Now that doesn't mean firstborn means preeminence, to be sure, but it's also firstborn as an example. Jesus is glorified. His physical body was resurrected and glorified. That has not happened yet for Christians.

If you go dig up old Charles Spurgeon right now, his soul is in heaven, but his body is still laying decayed in a grave. We as an example, because we're going to follow Christ's example, our bodies will be resurrected up.

Now the question becomes, if Jesus' life, if his death, burial, and resurrection is an example of believers, the question then begs itself, if Jesus died and his soul went to hell and his body went to the grave, then that could be implied that that would happen to all people.

Hence, from the book of Maccabees and some other places, you have this false doctrine of purgatory, and basically what purgatory states is that even if you are a Christian, it doesn't matter. In fact, I think it was Pope Innocent III said, if I will spend a lifetime in purgatory, then how much more will you guys, meaning he was so holy and all that, did you have to go to purgatory to still pay for certain sins?

That is not doctrinally, scripturally sound. Yeah, right? I mean, Christian, listen to me. If you don't understand the freedom that is in Christ now, here, even in a broken body, your chains are gone.

Them shackles are gone. You have been set free. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus. There you go. Your condition may waffle, but your position in Christ does not.

So, once again, another reason that I don't believe Jesus went to hell is because the example set could not doctrinally apply to us. Now, as Vicki kind of alluded to earlier, if the doctrine can't apply to us, then how in the world can it apply to a sinless, perfect example and sacrifice?

It is illogical, both on a doctrinal and common sense standpoint. So, by the way, I didn't finish. So, you have the alive in Christ, you have the dead in Christ, but now you also have the alive that are going to hell and the dead that are already there.

So, that's the two groupings of people. You're either a Christian or you're not, and those two subgroups is you're a Christian who's physically alive or physically dead, or you're a lost person who's physically alive or physically dead, and unfortunately also an eternity in death.

I could go on. I made a lot of little notes. I could go on, but I think it's important to also note this.

I tried to cheat, but I couldn't read your writing. Yeah, I write kind of quick.

The Nephilim and other things, and of course this goes into the idea of did angels come down and have sex with physical women and they produced the giants. We read that too. Now, once again, you can gain some traction from that, from linking certain things in the Bible, i .e. Goliath is supposed to be a descendant of one of these people.

Here's the problem with that. It's not doctrinally spoke of. The sons of God are the godly line of Seth. In other words, the incest was over. So, in other words, generation after generation after generation after generation, the line of Seth, i .e. the other son born, or one of the many children, but the next son born after the whole Cain and Abel thing to Adam and Eve was a young man named Seth.

And he saw the daughters of men. So what it's saying is that godly line of Seth, that Adamic line that went all the way down, and of course it goes all the way through to all of us, but in particular Jesus, were marrying folks that maybe weren't doing so hot.

But in no way does that mean that angels were having intercourse with human beings. Angels don't marry. They don't have sex. That was not what they were created to do. And we don't turn into angels when we die.

Does angels even have sex? I don't know. But I...

Lisa Edwards has a question. So anyways. Alright, Lisa? Her question is, are people who died in their sins already in hell?

The Rich Man, Hell, and the Immediate State of the Lost

Okay. Thank you, Lisa, for the question. The question was, repeat the question one more time, please.

Are people who have died in their sins, are they.

Already in hell? Okay, so in other words a person...

Do they go to hell right away? Correct. If I could,.

I think for everyone, I think what she's asking is this. In other words, if someone who does not have Jesus Christ, let's word it like that because that's more definitive. Someone without Jesus when they physically die, do their souls immediately go to hell?

The answer is yes. Absolutely. And once again, you can call that different things, but we know once again from Luke 16, and some of you preachers out there need to listen to this one. Luke 16 is not a parable.

Okay? It's not a parable. Jesus talks about a specific man named Lazarus, and Jesus never said it was a parable. He said that a rich man was in torment and hell, and he physically describes the torment and the hell.