August 7, 2020 Show with Adam Dooley on “Hope When Life Unravels” (Part 2)

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Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at IronSharpensIronRadio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you all a happy Friday. On this seventh day of August 2020 and we have back as a returning guest to begin part two of a discussion that we began on Monday.

We have Adam B. Dooley discussing his book, Hope When Life Unravels, Finding God When It Hurts, and Pastor Adam is an author, conference speaker, and pastor of Englewood Baptist Church in Jackson, Tennessee, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Pastor Adam B. Dooley. Chris, I am honored to be back with you. Thank you for inviting me to come back.

And if you could once again remind our listeners about Englewood Baptist Church of Jackson, Tennessee. Yeah, Englewood is located in the heart of Jackson.

We have three campuses and just a faithful group of believers that loves the scripture and is committed to verse -by -verse teaching of the scripture, and it's a joy to serve these great folks and would love anybody passing through to stop in and say hello sometime.

And if anybody wants to look up more information about Englewood Baptist Church of Jackson, Tennessee, you can go to ebcjackson .org,

ebcjackson .org, and EBC stands for Englewood Baptist Church.

And if you could, just to remind listeners or to inform listeners for the first time who didn't hear you on Monday, give us a summary of why you wrote

Hope When Life Unravels. There was a frightening trial in your life with your son that was really the catalyst behind this book, and if you could let our listeners know.

Absolutely. It really all began in July of 2011. My son,

Carson, my oldest, who was just a few weeks shy of turning four years old, was diagnosed with leukemia.

And, you know, Chris, I don't think I mentioned this to you on Monday, but I was actually, that was a

Sunday morning, and I was finishing a sermon series through the Sermon on the Mount, and I came to Matthew chapter 7, where Jesus tells the analogy that a man built his house on the rock, and a man built his house on the sand, and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat against those houses.

One fell, and one did not, because it was founded on the rock. And I challenged my people to build their lives on the rock that is

Christ, and talked about the importance of having the right foundation, particularly when storms come.

Having no idea that that very day, our lives would be turned upside down.

Carson was healthy up to that point. We really had no idea this was going to happen.

And we were in Mobile, Alabama at the time, and that very evening, we jumped on a plane and began a journey at St.

Jude Hospital in Memphis, Tennessee. That lasted for just short of three years of weekly chemotherapy and traveling back and forth, and not really knowing what the outcome was going to be.

So through all of that, I kept a detailed journal of some of the things that were happening and what

God was teaching us, and really did that because I wanted to give it to my son one day so that he could learn again all of the things that God taught us through that difficult time.

Fast forward, when he finished his chemotherapy, I started to think, you know, other people might benefit from these lessons as well.

And so that is where Hope When Life Unravels was born, and it took a number of years to put it all together.

But I'm really, really thankful that we have this new resource for the church.

And give us an update on the current condition of your son. Yeah, my son just turned 13, and he will begin his seventh grade year of school.

He's active. He's healthy. You would never know that he had cancer. And we just see continued evidence of God's grace in his life.

And we're so thankful for how gracious God was to our family.

Praise God. Well, I just want to read a couple more endorsements for this book.

Dr. R. Albert Muller, Jr., the president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, says,

This book powerfully illustrates the glory of suffering God uses excruciating trials in the lives of His people for eternal and lasting purposes.

It helps ground Christians in this hard truth, and it does so through personal narrative, through a father recounting his son's battle with cancer.

This gripping story summons believers in Jesus Christ to an unthinkable faith in the midst of life's challenges.

I'm sorry, an unshakable faith. That was a misread there. This story comes from a pastor who walked this valley with his family, and has held his suffering son through cancer treatments.

He now shares this story with Christ Church. You will not want to miss it.

We also have from Herschel, York, the Dean of the School of Theology, and Victor and Louise Lester, professor of Christian preaching at the

Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, says, Adam Dooley's writing exquisitely combines a pastor's heart and a theologian's insight with the anguished cries of a grieving parent, offering no easy or glib answers.

This story tore at my heart and then filled it with praise. It eloquently conducted me through a child's hospital room and into an empty tomb in Jerusalem.

What a word of hope and reassurance from suffering Christians who cannot understand why God has allowed their pain.

Some pretty impressive endorsements by very impressive people.

Well, I'm going to try to pick up where we left off last

Monday. But whenever we go through something like this, or hear about a trial that somebody is going through, it's not always about you, or it's not always about us, those who are suffering.

If you could explain. Yeah, this was a major point that I wanted to make in the book, because frankly, whenever we face hardship or suffering of any kind, the first question we tend to ask is,

God, why did you allow this to happen to me? And the reality is,

God is gracious enough to use nearly every trial in our lives for our good if we respond to him correctly.

However, that doesn't mean that our trials are primarily about us. An example

I use of that is from the book of Job. You'll recall that in chapter 1 and in chapter 2 of the book of Job, there is a scene in heaven where Satan comes before the throne of the

Lord and asks for permission to afflict Job, and he makes an accusation while asking for that permission.

And the accusation is, God, Job only worships you because you give him things, because you bless him, because you protect him.

In chapter 1, it's about his material blessings. In chapter 2, it's more about his physical health.

And at first glance, it looks as if Satan is making an accusation about Job, but when you look closer, it's really an accusation about God.

He is saying to the Lord, you aren't worthy of worship because of who you are, you're only worshiped because of what you give people.

You have to bribe people for worship. And this is why God says, have you considered my servant

Job? Now what's interesting, Chris, is that Job never knew that.

He had no idea that this had played out in heaven in this way, and he had no idea that God was seeking to demonstrate the worthiness of his worship.

And Job suffered greatly, and it was a terrible time in his life, but it wasn't primarily about Job.

And I think that's so helpful for us, because we need to understand what is at stake when bad things happen to us is about much more than us.

The picture is bigger than our short lifespan. Every trial gives us an opportunity to live high in the name of Christ and to give glory to the

Lord. And I'm convinced that Satan today is working overtime to try to demonstrate that the

God that we serve really isn't that beautiful. He's really not that glorious. He's really not worthy of our worship.

So in that sense, your greatest trial may not be primarily about you.

It may be about something much, much greater and much more important. Amen.

There is a saying, I believe it was, in fact, I'm certain it was

John Piper who said, Don't waste your cancer. And you have a chapter in your book,

Don't Waste Your Pain. Explain further on that. Well, I think the idea of not wasting your pain is really a twofold point.

One, as we've just said, don't waste your pain. Use it to glorify the Lord. Demonstrate that God is worthy of worship because of who he is.

God forbid that anything would ever happen to me that would cause me to behave in such a way that others would doubt the

God that I serve. So that really is at stake. But the other side of this coin is, even though our trials aren't primarily about us, they still work perilously against us.

They still are difficult to live through. It's still painful.

And we don't have to put on stoic masks and pretend that we're not hurting when we are hurting.

And so we have to look for redeemable moments in the midst of our trials.

And this is what it means to not waste your pain. God is so gracious that even though it's primarily about him, he still takes our trials and uses them for our good.

And I'm one who believes that we need to exercise some humility here. I don't think we can ever fully comprehend the mind of the

Lord or his intentions for the trials that we face.

However, if you look at some of the themes of scripture, what you will find is that God often uses trials for our good in the sense that he draws us into deeper intimacy with Christ.

He gives us a deeper sense of what's truly valuable or an eternal perspective.

He gives us opportunities to share the gospel. He makes us bold in our faith.

He instills within us comfort that we can comfort others from which we were comforted from the

Lord. And on and on and on it goes. I could tell you lots of stories about how our greatest trial opened the door for God to work in our lives in ways that we would have never predicted.

And again, God forbid that I would ever waste any of those moments.

I think about one in particular if I have time to share it. But we lived in the

Ronald McDonald House in Memphis, Tennessee for six weeks on the front end of Carson's Cancer Treatment.

And because we were there and basically restricted to our room to protect him, we really were unable to go to church.

So I was away from the church I was pastoring at the time. And we decided we would have a worship service in the chapel there at the

Ronald McDonald House. And Chris, the first Sunday there were just three people that showed up.

And I thought, this is terrible. What a terrible idea. I'm so embarrassed. And I did not know what to do except open my

Bible and just preach a message about the glory of Christ and invite the three people who were there to call upon Him and be saved.

And if they were saved, to walk with Him as believers and trust Him during their family trials.

And that day, two people received Christ as their

Savior, a husband and a wife. Praise God. Yeah, and fast forward one year later,

I was preaching their daughter's funeral, watching them praise the

Lord in the midst of such a dark moment. And I thought, you know what?

I'm so glad I did not waste the pain of Carson's cancer early on.

That's an eternal reward that I'll never lose because we did not waste that painful moment.

Amen. And isn't that, in and of itself, the fact that whenever we're going through a trial, this is not, if we believe in the sovereignty of God, and actually it doesn't matter whether we believe in the sovereignty of God or not, it's still true that it's something that didn't happen purely by accident.

It is not happenstance. It is not serendipity. It is not something that happened by chance, as they say.

Everything that occurs comes from the hand of a loving God when it occurs in the lives of His people.

And we can know, no matter how gut -wrenching the pain we are going through, we can know

I can use this as an instrument to let others know about Jesus Christ.

I can use this to benefit and bless others, to give purpose to what we are facing.

Isn't that a very key element in finding comfort ourselves?

Yes, I do think that is key, and I like the way you said that, because those two ideas really rise and fall with one another.

And so what I mean by that is, you do have to believe that God is sovereign and that God is purposeful in our pain in order to set purpose that you can yield to in the midst of your pain and not waste it.

You know, one of the most common questions I got when Carson was ill, why would

God allow this? And it really goes back to that ancient problem of evil that we've all wrestled with.

If God is powerful enough to stop this and He does not, is

He unloving? Or if God is loving and wants to stop this and cannot, does that mean

He isn't omnipotent? I was asked those questions in different forms throughout the duration of those three years.

But I want to tell you, the biblical response to that is, yes,

God is loving and He grieves when we hurt, but He is also omnipotent and He could prevent things.

However, that does not mean He is our enemy. Lest we forget, we live in a fallen world, and every act of violence, every incidence of suffering, every particular trial that we face is rooted in the fall.

And God is our only hope to overcome the fall.

So He's not our enemy in this. And just as He was purposeful in putting His Son on the cross, and, you know,

I think about Isaiah chapter 53, where the prophet says it actually pleased the

Father to crush His own son. Well, that right there is a purposeful trial, where God is pleased because it is through the cross that Jesus Christ is given a name that's above every other name, and at the name of Jesus, every knee would bow and every tongue would confess that He is

Lord to the glory of the Father. And so it's not that God enjoys our suffering or that God wants us to suffer, but God does use our suffering, and He is bigger than our suffering, and He is purposeful in it, and He gives us what we need, even when it's not what we always want.

And that is what every loving Father does. And so that's where we find a sense of purpose.

If all of that is true, I can walk through my trial knowing, you know what,

I need to pivot here. I need to use this for good. I don't want to waste this, because if God has a purpose, if I will bring myself in alignment with that purpose, there can be a reason behind the madness that I'm enduring.

And what do you mean by the title of your chapter, Hanging On for Dear Life? Well, Hanging On for Dear Life is where I wrote about the rhythm of weekly trips from Mobile, Alabama to Memphis, Tennessee.

You know, early on when Carson was diagnosed, we feared he would die.

He quickly went into remission, but for a child with leukemia, if you don't continue giving them chemotherapy, they will relapse.

And so after he went into remission, we had two and a half years of chemotherapy, and the excitement of his remission wore off.

And then it was the redundancy and the exhausting rhythm of getting on an airplane every

Tuesday, flying to Memphis, and then flying home on Wednesday. And it frankly felt like that we could not endure.

And so I call that Hanging On for Dear Life, because even though we were winning, it felt like we were losing.

And I think that's the way life is. I think that's the way our trials are. Even when you know

God has a purpose for it, you still doubt God, and you grow weary, and sometimes you cry out against God.

And you just have to hang on and remember that most of our trials do have an ending, and we can trust

God even when we don't feel like trusting Him. That's what that shouldn't be all about.

Praise God. Well, we have to go to our first station break right now. If you have a question of your own that you would like to ask

Pastor Adam B. Dooley about suffering, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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This is Chris Arnton. If you've just tuned us in, our guest today for the entire program is

Pastor Adam B. Dooley, and he is pastor of Englewood Baptist Church of Jackson, Tennessee.

We are discussing part two of a topic that we began on Monday, Hope When Life Unravels, Finding God When It Hurts, which is also the title of Pastor Dooley's new book.

If you'd like to join us on the air for the question, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.

As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Tell us about life with an uninvited guest. Well, I think that's the way so many of our trials are.

They invade and for us, cancer was that uninvited guest who just interrupted our lives.

And these are the type of trials that don't go away immediately. They are with us for a good period of time.

And I think it's in moments like these that we start to see that God wants to do more in our lives that just give us relief.

And I want to be careful here because I don't want to imply that God doesn't care about our comfort or our relief, but oftentimes

He is about much, much more. And we have to live with the reality that God wants us to endure some things more than He wants us to overcome certain things.

And that is frankly something we don't hear enough of in modern day

Christianity, particularly in American Christianity. We get these erroneous ideas that God exists primarily to give us what we want and to help us live the most comfortable lives possible.

And it's just not true. If you survey the scripture, you will find that some of the godliest people in the history of Christendom suffered the most.

I think about Hebrews chapter 11, in fact, where the Bible lists a number of terrible things that assailed the early church.

And the Bible says the world was not worthy of these people. Today, we act like that those that the world isn't worthy of are the wealthiest and the most comfortable and receive the most accolades.

And this is really the opposite of what scripture teaches. So these uninvited guests that come into our lives, suffering in any form, has a way of helping us reset.

And we begin to look at life with an eternal perspective instead of simply the here and now.

And we have, let's see, Bobby in Hartsdale, New York has a question for you.

Bobby wants to know, when does asking God for answers about why we are suffering and even demonstrating anger toward God cross the line into blasphemy?

Yeah, that's a good question. And I think many faithful believers wrestle with that.

And I would just say that in my experience, most of us are far from committing blasphemy.

If anything, we err more on the other side where we are timid in our prayers to the

Lord and fearful of asking why. And so one of the things that I point out in the book is that throughout the book of Job, Job in one form or another asks

God why at least 20 different times you can find other faithful servants like Moses and Jeremiah, for example, who repeatedly ask

God why about any number of things. I believe that is permissible for us.

Now, what I counsel folks is that it is impermissible when after asking why you begin to demand an answer.

When you come to the end of the book of Job, God never rebukes him for asking why, but he does correct

Job's tone. So, for example, in chapter 3 of the book of Job, he laments his life.

He is unwilling to curse God, but he wants those who do curse

God to curse the day of his death, or the day of his birth, rather.

And Job says a lot of things that aren't spiritual, and frankly, they're not even logical. And he, on another occasion, describes meeting with God in a courtroom scene.

And he basically says, I've got an ironclad case, and God owes me some answers.

That's where I think you begin to cross the line, because when God finally speaks to Job, there's no rebuke for asking the question why, but there is a rebuke for this tone of implying that God is somehow obligated to answer us.

And as you know, the Lord answers and says to Job, where were you when

I laid the foundations of the earth? And there's a whole litany of questions that he then proceeds to ask.

So what I would say is, it is not wrong to ask God why. I do believe it is wrong to demand an answer.

I do believe it is wrong for us to chasten the Lord. I would not put that in the category of blasphemy, because the other interesting thing about Job is, after saying some very reckless things, there are a number of places throughout the book where Job has these

Mount Everest moments of faith, and he contradicts what he's previously said.

In chapter 23, for example, he says, he, being God, knows the way

I take, and when he has tried me, I shall come forth as gold. So this was a man who was wishing he was dead a few chapters earlier.

So what I'm getting at is, God can handle our anger. God can handle our frustration.

I think God is gracious and compassionate toward us.

I'm grateful God doesn't hold me to everything I say when I'm hurt. And blasphemy would be more a pattern of disavowing the

Lord and chastening the Lord than these moments of weakness, in my view.

Thank you, Bobby. We have an anonymous listener who asks, I have been going through some very serious, painful times in my life.

And one of the things that actually magnifies the pain and depression is when well -intentioned friends, family members, and brothers and sisters in Christ are constantly asking me how things are going with this trial.

It forces me to continually repeat those things that are actually bringing me pain.

And I understand that this is being done with wonderful motives.

But at the same time, when you're walking around after a worship service and constantly repeating over and over and over again everything that is causing distress in your life, it can bring you further into a pit of depression.

Also, I feel like I'm just walking around whining and complaining. How do you suggest and counsel me to respond when

I hear the very well -intentioned questions, how are things going, and you don't want to just keep regurgitating the same complaint and you don't want to keep summoning up pain in your mind and heart?

Well, I really appreciate this question a lot, Chris, because I think it highlights another key point that we need to acknowledge, and this is something

I try to point out in the book as well, and that is sometimes the people that we love the most are the least helpful when we're hurting.

That was true about Job's wife. That was true about the three friends that came to see him.

That was true about Jesus' own brothers and his own disciples at some point in his ministry.

And so it is true that the people who love us the most are sometimes the least helpful in situations like this.

The other thing I appreciate about that question is clearly it's in the context of a local church.

Your listener describes walking around after a service and being asked these questions. Well, you have to be present at a service or in the church in order for people to ask those.

And so it highlights that the body of Christ is not immune to this, and we don't always get it right.

We don't always encourage one another as we should. And I think that's important for us to acknowledge because, frankly, when we are surprised by that, it can do more damage at times.

So how should you respond to it? Well, this would be my counsel. I think the honest evaluation and declaration within that question is exactly how you should respond.

If I could take the context of a local church, if it is so widespread that multiple people are continually bringing up the same thing, even standing before your church and saying, hey, here is what is happening in my life.

Here is where I am with this trial that you all know about. And here is one request that I have.

Don't rob me of any sense of normalcy that I have left. Don't feel like that we have to talk about my burden every time we interact with one another.

People just need to be told exactly what to do because they don't know what to do.

They don't know what to say. And they really are trying to be helpful. I think you can address an entire congregation and just lay it out just as clearly as the question does.

I also think that you can do that one -on -one with individuals and just encourage them.

Our friendship, our relationship is important to me. But it is taxing to always talk about this one issue or this one burden every time we interact.

So please don't do that. And the times that I have had to say things like that to people,

I have found them more than willing to be able to accommodate those wishes and even thankful that I would be that honest.

Because I think in most cases, there are exceptions, but in most cases, people really do want to be helpful and they don't realize when they're not.

Well, that actually, I think, is an excellent tip for elders and pastors, who

I think are the same office, by the way, but to have them approach the people in their church that they know are going through severe trials and say to them, would you like to get up either before service or at some point in the service that those leaders find appropriate to get up to the pulpit and express what you'd like to say about your trial so that people don't necessarily have to keep asking you over and over and over again about it.

And if you feel uncomfortable doing it, would you like to write down what you'd like us to say? And then those pastors or a pastor can do that.

And as far as the people in the church who believe they're going to appear unloving if they don't ask, perhaps they could even approach the person and say,

I know that you're probably telling everybody about the details of your trial because everybody's asking, and I don't want you to do that if you don't want to.

I just want you to know that I'm here, and anything that you care to tell me, let me know, but I'll just pray for you either with you now or in my own private devotion and prayer life, and I just want you to know

I'm here for you. I mean, wouldn't that be a good way to approach something? Yeah, I think so, and I appreciate that admonishment to pastors and elders that we need to help our people learn how to comfort one another with the same comfort we've received from the

Lord. And if you think about this pattern of coming to the Lord in the midst of great adversity, obviously we often pour our heart out to the

Lord, but can you imagine in the midst of trial if every time you prayed you had to talk in detail about the trial to the

Lord? It might drive you away from prayer and lead up to prayer. And so I think that we pastors need to teach our people how to comfort one another the way

God comforts us. He doesn't require that of us. Of course we require that of others.

I also will say this, Chris. I mean, this is one of the, you know, even outside of a church context, this is one of the benefits of some of the social media platforms that we have today.

Certainly there is much bad that comes with that, but one of the great things that you can do on a social media platform is update the people.

In fact, can you pick up right where you left off there when we return from our midway break? Yes, sir.

And we have to go to a longer break. This is the break that Grace Life Radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida requires of us because the

FCC requires of them localizing their programming to Lake City, Florida.

So while they air their own public service announcements during this midway break, we air our globally heard commercials.

Please use this time wisely. Write down as much of the information as you can for as many of the advertisers as you can, and that way you will be further ensured to successfully and more frequently patronize our advertisers.

And this, God willing, will lead to us remaining on the air for a longer future because we would think that our advertisers would want to stick around if many of you were patronizing them.

And we depend, we absolutely rely upon the advertising dollars from our sponsors to exist.

So keep that in mind. Also, folks, write down questions for our guest today,

Adam B. Dooley on Hope When Life Unravels. This is part two of a discussion we began on Monday. Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages. Chris Arnson, host of Iron Trump and Zion Radio here.

I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years. His name is Dan Buttafuoco.

Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer, but not the type that typically comes to mind.

Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself. Recently, he wrote a book titled Consider the

Evidence for the Bible. Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword. Dan also has a master's degree in theology.

Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states. He represents many

Christians in serious injury matters all over the country. Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.

He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy, and currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for $1 million or more, and in approximately 10 different states.

In Illinois, his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history. In New York, his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the law journal.

If you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state, I recommend that you call

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1 -800 -669 -4878. Or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

That's chrisarnson at gmail dot com. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and the

Dividing Line webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach, and debate at numerous venues, some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church, now located at their new beautiful facilities in Corham, Long Island, New York.

I've had the privilege of opening God's Word from their pulpit on many occasions, have led youth retreats for them, and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my

New York debates. I cannot hesitate to highly recommend Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island to anyone who wants to be accurately taught, discipled, and edified by the

Holy Scriptures, and to be surrounded by truly loving and caring brothers and sisters in Christ.

I also want to congratulate Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham for their recent appointment of Pastor Rich Jensen's co -elder,

Pastor Christopher McDowell. For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

That's hopereformedli .net. Or call 631 -696 -5711.

That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island that you heard about them from James White on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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This is Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support

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Lord Jesus Christ. And of course, the end for which we strive is the glory of God.

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our

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When Iron Sharpens Iron radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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That's liyfc .org. As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

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Or call them at 908 -996 -7654. That's 908 -996 -7654.

Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

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In Psalm 139 verse 14, the psalmist offers praise to the Lord like this.

I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made and wondrous are your works that my soul knows very well.

He saw God's goodness and mercy, kindness, and the beauty in what

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God like the psalmist did? May God bless you and give all of us wisdom to see greater things in his design.

Thank you. Welcome back.

This is Chris Ornsen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the entirety of the program is

Adam B. Dooley, and we are discussing his book, Hope When Life Unravels, Finding God When It Hurts.

This is part two of a discussion we began on Monday. Before we return to that discussion,

I just wanted to make sure that you heard some very important announcements. First of all, I hope as many of you as possible join me for a conference coming up in Scranton, Pennsylvania, and more specifically,

Larksville, Pennsylvania, a suburb of Scranton at the High Point Baptist Church in Larksville.

This is the Basics of Biblical Counseling Conference being led by the

Association of Certified Biblical Counselors, also known as ACBC. This is

Friday and Saturday, the 28th and 29th of August, and the featured speaker is

Dale Johnson, the Executive Director of the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors.

Dale Johnson will be addressing such themes as the need for biblical counseling, the definition and goal of biblical counseling, progressive sanctification, qualifications of a biblical counselor, secular and integration theories, and what makes biblical counseling biblical.

There will also be a Q &A session led by Dale Johnson with the audience. If you would like to join me on Friday and Saturday, August 28th and 29th, at the

High Point Baptist Church in Larksville, Pennsylvania, for this conference, go to biblicalcounseling .com

forward slash Scranton, that's S -C -R -A -N -T -O -N, dash

PA, dash training. That's biblicalcounseling .com forward slash

Scranton, dash PA, dash training, and you can also find out more details about the venue at highpointbaptist .church,

highpointbaptist .church. I will be manning an exhibitor's booth for Iron Trip and Zion Radio there, so I hope as many of you as possible will join me at this conference and then greet me at my exhibitor's booth while there.

Also, folks, if you love this show, you don't want it to disappear from the airwaves, well, we need your help very urgently with your donations.

We lost our two largest financial supporters for this program because of the pandemic hysteria over the coronavirus, and these two financial supporters had businesses that were so negatively affected that they had to postpone, and I'm hoping it's just temporary, but they had to postpone until the foreseeable future of their giving.

So, please help us make up for that lost income. I thank all of you who are already doing that, but if you haven't done it,

I just urge you, if you don't want us to go away, please go to irontripandzionradio .com,

click support, then click, click to donate now. You can donate instantly with a debit or credit card by doing that, and if you prefer snail mail, there's an address that will appear on the screen when you click support at irontripandzionradio .com

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We also would love to hear from you if you want to advertise with us, because we certainly could use your advertising dollars.

Send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

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So, send us that email to chrisarnson at gmail .com. Remember folks,

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But, if you are financially blessed above and beyond your ability to do those two things, which are commands in scripture providing for your church and your family, if you're blessed above and beyond financially to obey those two commands, then please go to irontripandzionradio .com,

click support, then click click to donate now. You might have extra money because due to the quarantining that had been going on and still is going on in some parts of the country, you have not been going out fine dining, you have not been going to concerts, you have not been going to your favorite sporting events, you have not been going to the movies, you have not been going to theatrical performances at plays and theaters, playhouses and theaters, you haven't been going to bible conferences, you haven't been doing a lot of things that you used to spend a lot of money on.

Well, if you have extra money lying around because of that or collecting interest in the bank, please use some of that or all of it to help us remain on the air, if indeed you want that to happen, if you want us to remain on the air and you love the show and you listen to it regularly and you share the free downloadable mp3s with family, friends and loved ones and you love winning free books and bibles when we interview authors, please go to irontripandzionradio .com,

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If you are not a member of a local bible -believing church, I have biblically faithful churches on lists all over the world and I can help you find a church no matter where you live on the planet earth,

God willing, I've helped many people in all parts of the world find churches that they have joined or recommended to loved ones or visited when they were on vacation, so if you need a church,

I can help you find one, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com

and put I need a church in the subject line. That is also the email address where you can send in questions to our guest

Adam B. Dooley on his book Hope When Life Unravels, Finding God When It Hurts, this is part two of a discussion that we began on Monday and we hope you join us on the air with questions of your own and Pastor Dooley, when we went to the midway break

I had to interrupt you and you were right in the middle of talking about how even though it can be a curse in our lives, social media can also be a great blessing and gift from God and this technology affords us the opportunity to post things about the trials that we are going through to prevent the necessity of repeating over and over and over again to people the same story of our woe.

If you could pick up where you left off there. Well yeah, that is exactly the point that I was making there.

Instead of saying something a dozen times, sometimes it's helpful just to say it once and again you can very clearly on those platforms say,

I only want to say this once, please don't feel the pressure to ask me about it if you see me.

In fact, I would enjoy seeing you without even having to discuss this, but because I know you're concerned, here's what is happening of late in regard to my personal trial and so these are different avenues that we can use, but I think the bottom line here is not to be afraid to be forthright and speak our mind and really instruct people on what is helpful to us and what is not.

Amen. In fact, my very first pastor, Mike Gaydosh, who is the founder of Solid Ground Christian Books, who sponsors this program, he, when he knew

I was in the hospital recently in the first week of July actually, I was in the hospital with congestive heart failure and he took the mantle and set up or posted,

I should say, a Facebook post explaining in detail everything

I told him that I was going through and he said if you have further questions contact me, meaning my friend

Mike Gaydosh, and I will try to get you updated as soon as possible and as soon as Chris provides these updates and that was an enormous help to me because I was in the hospital and although I loved getting many emails and texts and even phone calls from my precious friends and even emails from people

I didn't even know all over the world, I really did receive a huge indescribably comforting blessing from that.

The only thing that was uncomfortable at times is when people wanted details and even though it wasn't such a horrific experience

I was going through, I don't want to exaggerate what I went through, but at the same time, you know, you're in the hospital, you don't really have the time to answer emails over and over and over again or even

Facebook private messages, so it was in fact very good for me to be able to say when somebody would ask me for details, go to Mike Gaydosh's Facebook page and you could see his post and thank you and I love you, it means so much to me that you reached out to me and it did and it does mean a lot to hear from so many people, hundreds of people that I heard from with their well wishes and their promises to pray, but the only part, as I said, that we have to all remember for our own lives when we reach out to those we love, be careful about just demanding too much information.

I mean it is a catch -22 because you don't want to seem like you're unconcerned or indifferent, but you know,

I think the wise way to say it, like I mentioned earlier, is to say, I don't want to bombard you with questions as you're already being bombarded likely from other people, just let me know whenever you're up to it, how you're doing and what's going on and know that I'm here for you.

I think that would be the best way to approach those kinds of situations. Well, I am pretty certain that this may have to do with what we already touched on, but perhaps you want to expand on it and I could be wrong, but I think you're probably talking about Job's friends with your chapter heading with friends like these.

Yeah, Job's friends were really much more problematic than what we have just described.

Certainly, they had concern, but it was much more than asking

Job to continually repeat what his problems were.

Instead, they brought to him the solution that he had to be unrighteous in order to merit such suffering.

Thankfully, we have at the beginning of the book of Job God's own testimony that there is no one more righteous in all the earth than his servant

Job. So, it was this bad theological point of view that if you are suffering, it must be because of sin.

Not sin in general, but personal sin in your life. The flip side also being implied that if you are not suffering, it must be because you are righteous and holy and moral.

Neither of those things are true and it is easy to criticize

Job's friends, but I think these erroneous ideas often creep into how we relate to God if we're not careful.

As soon as a trial comes, our tendency is to cry out to God and say, what did

I do to deserve this? God, why are you doing this to me? At the root of that is this idea that you have to deserve it or it wouldn't be happening, or you have to earn it or you wouldn't receive a blessing.

It's interesting that one of the first weeks that we were in Memphis, Tennessee staying at the

Ronald McDonald House, I had a young father whose daughter was diagnosed with leukemia as well.

He was an unbeliever. We sat down and had a cup of coffee and were talking through what was ahead for our children.

He looked at me knowing I was a pastor and he said, I understand why this would happen to our family, but how do you explain that something like this would happen to your family?

Well, basically that's Job's friends right there. That is the theology that drove them and drives us.

It is almost second nature to us to relate to God in this way. Unfortunately, it is biblically false.

It just is not true. I even tell a story in the book about the worst letter that I ever received from a church member who was making an accusation about why my son had cancer.

These are the kinds of things we want to make sure we do not do when someone that we know is hurting.

I would say even if you believe that God is bringing discipline or chastening upon someone, it is best to exercise humility and not voice that.

First of all, because you may be wrong, but second of all, even if you are right, the

Lord is more than capable of bringing about conviction and repentance in a person's life without our exercising the spiritual arrogance that it takes to declare to someone why they're suffering.

We have another anonymous listener who says,

I don't know if this is true, but I have heard repeated on several occasions a statistic that couples who lose a child in death very often end in divorce.

And this would even include Christian parents, and this would even include the occasions when the death of the child was not at all, in any way, shape, or form, the fault of either parent.

Do you know if there is any truth to this statistic, and why do you think it occurs if indeed it is true?

Well, it's a fascinating question because one of the things that I heard repeatedly while my son was at St.

Jude is that most families, most parents who have a child with cancer will end up divorcing during their treatment or soon thereafter.

Now, I never saw any hard data to back that claim up, but I was told that statistic repeatedly throughout my time there.

Do you mean by the staff? By staff members and by people who had gone through it.

So, families that had come out on the other side gave testimony that so many that started with them divorced before it was all over.

And, again, I don't have any sort of data to back this up, but I can tell you that in our experience as well, more than half of the families that we knew at St.

Jude that started this journey that we were on, by the time it was over, regardless of outcome, more than half of those families broke apart in the pain of divorce.

Wow. So, it proved what you had heard, at least it seemed to back up, I should say, what you have heard. It certainly did seem to be the case, yes, and I think it speaks to the disheartening nature of how severe trials can be.

I think that there are two dangers, Chris, when we think about earthly tragedy, and that is, on the one hand, we can diminish

God and imply that He is not sovereign over it and purposeful over it, and we've discussed that.

But on the other extreme, I think we can diminish the severity and the deep pain that some circumstances cause us, and rather than deal with it in a godly way, we run from it or are conquered by it, and so, so many people fall prey to that.

And so, I think we have to be very careful and not deny that, and as believers, again, in the context of the church,

I think we have to go above and beyond serving and ministering to those who are hurting, not just until an outcome or resolution is found, but even beyond that.

The emotional trauma of some things lasts for years and even a lifetime.

Yeah, it's amazing, because it's counterintuitive, you would think, unless, of course,

I'm not saying that this justifies a divorce, please, I don't want anybody to misunderstand me, but you could more readily understand a divorce happening when one of the spouses may have been guilty of somehow causing the death, even if it was unintentional, of the child, but when it is completely beyond the realm of responsibility for either parent, when the death is totally unconnected to something either parent did, you would think that such a trial would bring them together more closely, and of course,

I'm sure it does on many occasions. Well, and I can certainly say that in our case, that was the result for my wife, and we really have a new depth in our marriage, a new love and appreciation for one another that far exceeds anything we knew before, but I will also admit to you that I can understand how severe trial can cause wedges between a husband and wife, because there were a lot of times where we were just irritable with one another, we were frustrated over our reality, or maybe we received news that we didn't want to receive, and so our attitude, our tones with one another, they just weren't godly at times, and there were a number of occasions where we had to apologize to one another, and by God's grace, we did, and we're drawn closer together, but I'm not justifying, but I'm just acknowledging

I can certainly see where the window of opportunity would be to drive couples apart.

We have another anonymous listener who says, Did you find in your own life that some of your other children began to become jealous of the attention that you were giving toward your son who was sick?

Not that there was anything intentional, and it may have even been a false assumption by the other children, but I was wondering if you could say anything to this, because I know that other families do have the problem of having the other children begin to find themselves in a position where they feel they're being neglected, whether it is real or imagined.

Yes, again, that's another question that fascinates me, because it's something that I have thought a great deal about, and interestingly enough, with this book releasing now, we are as a family reliving some of these experiences, and we are seeing a reaction in our children that we did not see before because they were so young.

So when Carson was first diagnosed, we only had he and one other son, and he was one year old, and what's interesting, he never voiced any kind of jealousy, but of all of the children that I have, which

I now have five, he is much more quiet, he's much more reserved, and is always deferring to everyone else in our house, and we have often speculated that it is because of those early years of his life, he constantly deferred to his brother.

It took him longer to talk, and he's just less outgoing.

Now, fast forward to today, this book has come out, I have five children, Carson is my oldest, and I do sense that there could be a bit of childish jealousy surrounding it, to the point that one of my sons said to me,

I wish you would write a book about me. One even said,

I wish I had cancer, so that you would write a book about me. So certainly they're saying much more than they understand, but it garners a lot of attention for Carson, and we've worked really hard to try to include them, and again, express our love for each of them equally.

But it's difficult, it really is difficult to balance that with kids. Of course you could say to your children making those statements, how would you like to be the primary subject of my new book on parental discipline?

Exactly. Yeah, that just reminded me, I'm not going to take too long to talk about it, it just reminded me of many years ago when

I was a believer fresh out of the clutches of a life of drunkenness, and I remember a girl who was,

I was in my 20s at the time, a girl who was from a Christian home, born and raised since infancy, in the faith, could never remember a time when she didn't believe in and love

Jesus, and she actually said to me, you know, sometimes I wish that I had gone through a season of rebellion like you, so that my salvation testimony would be more interesting, and would be used by God to draw people to salvation.

And I said, do you realize how ridiculous that statement is? I mean, it's actually just another way of demonstrating the power and love of God, that He preserved you.

And you could also be an extraordinary testimony to young people, perhaps especially, knowing that it can be done.

You don't need to cave into peer pressure. You can follow Christ and grow up to be a healthy and normal and productive and beloved person in your community, without having gone through some of these hellish nightmares that other people have been through.

Right. Well, it's really an older brother syndrome is what it is. We praise

God for His grace to every prodigal, and praise God for His grace to every hurting person who suffers.

But to equate with that, well, I could love God more, or be closer to God if I were a prodigal, or if I suffered greatly.

That is a false assumption that we need not make. But, you know, hardship does create a lot of really strange dynamics within a family.

And one of the words of counsel that I give to families who are walking through anything, be very, very careful about making major life -changing decisions in the midst of seasons like that.

Because we don't think clearly, we don't feel things correctly, and we really do make unhealthy comparisons, sometimes intentionally, sometimes unintentionally.

But that, again, is the nature of a fallen world. It's not just the physical challenges that we face.

It's also the emotional and even spiritual trauma that trials can often cause.

And a lot of times we focus on the physical side of it, but we don't weather the emotional, the maturity issues as well.

And God may be more focused in those areas than He is the physical side of it.

By the way, folks, I forgot to mention to all of you who have written in, even those of you who wrote in anonymously, that if you give me your full name and mailing address, of course off the air

I won't announce who you are if you are writing in anonymously.

If you give me your full name and mailing address, you have won a free copy of Hope When Life Unravels, Finding God When It Hurts by our guest

Adam B. Dooley, compliments of the fine folks at Zondervan who made these gifts available for you.

And we're going to our final break right now. It's going to be much shorter than the other breaks. If you have any intention to join us on the air with your own question, please do so very soon, because we are rapidly running out of time.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Please always give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter, and obviously themes like this lend themselves very often to people having very personal and intimate things that they want to ask about without having to reveal their identity.

So feel free to do that if it's personal and private. Don't go away, we'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors, and our email address again is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

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I gain insight from the analysis and world provides clarity to the news stories that really matter.

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Armed with this coverage, world can help you to be a voice of wisdom in your family and your community.

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forward slash podcast. Tony Costa, professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love.

Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher McDowell.

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in his holy word and to enthusiastically proclaim

Christ Jesus the King and his doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island and beyond.

I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as I have.

For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

That's hopereformedli .net or call 631 -696 -5711.

That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York, that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

Chris Sorensen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here. I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years.

His name is Dan Buttafuoco. Dan is a personal injury and malpractice lawyer, but not the type that typically comes to mind.

Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself. Recently, he wrote a book titled Consider the

Evidence for the Bible. Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword. Dan also has a master's degree in theology.

Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states. He represents many

Christians in serious injury matters all over the country. Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.

He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy, and currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for $1 million or more, and in approximately 10 different states.

In Illinois, his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history. In New York, his case involving a police officer made the front page of the

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Dan Buttafuoco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878. 1 -800 -669 -4878.

Or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. Oh This is

Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially. Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in scripture through the person and work of our

Lord Jesus Christ. And of course, the end for which we strive is the glory of God.

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us on Lord's Day in worshiping our

God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our

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Greetings in the matchless name of our Lord Jesus Christ. My name is Bhanu Gadhi. I'm a pharmacist in New York, which is the epicenter of the latest crisis the world is going through.

In Psalm 139 verse 14, the psalmist offers praise to the Lord like this,

I praise you because I'm fearfully and wonderfully made and wondrous are your works that my soul knows very well.

He saw God's goodness and mercy, kindness, and the beauty in what

God has designed and he has erupted into praise. In any crisis or problem, brothers and sisters, our only fallback position is to trust

God's design and once we do, there is nothing for us to do but to erupt in praise to him.

When the whole world is searching for a solution, God in his infinite mercy has given us what we need to address this illness, which can be very serious.

Such is the beauty of his design. Knowing that design, how can we not add up in praise to our great

God like the psalmist did. May God bless you and give all of us wisdom to see greater things in his design.

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And we are now back with Adam B. Dooley for the final segment of our program today.

And Adam, what is the most courageous faith? Well, Chris, the most courageous faith is not trusting

God for a miracle or having enough faith to receive a miracle, but the most courageous faith is having the faith to endure hardship with no apparent end in sight.

In the book, I tell a story about a man who met my son and myself at the airport and wanted to pray over him, and we allowed him to do that.

And after doing so, this man declared that my son was healed, that we no longer needed to worry about chemotherapy or anything of that nature.

And it was just infuriating to me that he would imply that somehow his faith was such that he could receive a miracle like that from the

Lord, when for over a year I had been walking daily with my son, praying daily for my son, entrusting my son to the

Lord, and no such miracle came. This is the fallacy of the health and wealth gospel that we hear so much about.

Sometimes it is not God's will to heal supernaturally. Certainly He can, but that is not always

God's will. And it takes more faith to endure when

God does not deliver a miracle than it does to receive a miracle. And frankly,

I do not see enough people celebrating and even praising that kind of enduring faith that says, though He slay me,

I will praise Him still. And so that is really what that chapter is about, and it is just an encouragement as well to some friends that we have who walked through childhood cancer, and the outcome was very different than ours.

I have friends that did not get to bring their children home, and they were no less faithful than we were, and God was no less faithful to them.

That is courageous faith when you dare to believe that no matter your circumstance, that God is good, and He is trustworthy, and He is worthy of worship.

That takes real courage. What are some of the answers that people unexpectedly get that they were not looking for when they are going through a crisis like the one that you faced?

Well, I think, again, one of the answers that you get is that God is not going to give you the relief that you want, either when you want or at all.

Early on, when praying for my son, I felt a real conviction that God was going to heal him, but I also felt an equal conviction that it would not be supernaturally, and that God wanted us to walk through three long years of chemotherapy, exhausted and tired and discouraged through much of it.

Time won't permit me to tell you, but during that same season, I was pastoring a very difficult church, and there were some things on the home front that were just as difficult to deal with.

The answers that you don't look for are, hey, you're right in the center of God's will when these terrible things are happening, and you have to decide.

It's the same test that Satan put before God about Job. Will you worship

God because of who he is, or is your worship dependent upon what he is willing to do for you?

That's not the answer that I was looking for. Oh, that is an answer that I treasure.

That is a gift from God, because I have learned I really do believe what

I preach, and I really do believe that God is sovereign over my life, and that he is worthy of all my praise and all my worship.

I believe that by his grace, I will endure for his glory to the very end.

Having a season where that's put to the test is painful, but it's also a gift, because it shows you the validity of what you possess.

That's not what we were looking for. For us, it was all about God heal my son, and praise

God that he did, but God gave us a whole lot more than that in addition. Praise God.

Well, I want to thank you so much for being such a superb guest once again. I urge everybody to listen to part one of this interview, if you missed it, that was conducted on Monday, and I urge all of you to go to cvbbs .com,

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service's website, cvbbs .com,

and order your copy if you haven't won it, or if you did win it and want to purchase it for other people.

Get your copy or copies of Hope When Life Unravels by Adam B. Dooley, Finding God When It Hurts, published by Zondervan, that's cvbbs .com.

Make sure you tell the folks at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service that you heard about them from Chris Arnson on Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

I want to thank you, Pastor Dooley. I look forward to your return to this program. I want to thank everybody who listened today, especially those who took the time to write.

I want you to continue, please, to pray for those dear friends of mine who

I mentioned on Monday, in the beginning of Monday's program, my friend Dr. Latane C.

Scott, who is a former Mormon who converted to Christianity and has written a number of books.

She's been a guest on this program many times, and she just lost her husband, Dan, after 47 years of marriage, after a long battle with a debilitating illness.

So, please pray for Latane C. Scott, and pray for the Hill family, Jerry and Fern Hill, and their surviving sons,

Thaddeus and James, as they all grieve together the loss, very recently, of another brother,

Thomas, who, after years of rebellion, thankfully, came to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ and made peace with God.

So, pray for those families. I hope you all have a safe and blessed and happy weekend and Lord's Day, and I hope you all remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater