TiL- Reformed Covenant Theology pt 4

Reformed Covenant Theology and the Covenant of Works

Welcome to the truth in love podcast. Thank you for joining us tonight. We are continuing our study in Reformed Covenant theology. Stick with us.

Welcome to the truth in love podcast. Join this Baptist and Presbyterian as they discuss theology and its application to life. Together, let's seek the son and glorify the father. Stay tuned as we speak truth in love.

Again, welcome to the program.

I'm glad you're enjoying it. I'm really thinking about how I need to update it and change it again, but a little British guy gets me every time. But yeah tonight we are continuing in Reformed Covenant theology by here.

We got some reflection there by Harrison Perkins. There we go. There we go. We're in chapter 4. And it's good to be back with you, how you doing Dan.

I'm good. I'm good. I'm tired.

I'm good. How are you doing? I'm feeling the exact same way. Got we've got work and we've got all the things that we that we do outside of work and I know both of us are preparing for sermons and praise the Lord for that.

We both of us are going back to school. I I'm trying. Well, I I'm in I'm in but I'm trying to do it. Yeah, I got my my acceptance letter Friday okay for I'll be be instead of doing my Master of Arts and Biblical Studies.

I moved on over into the Master Divinity program at Carolina University. Carolina University, yeah over there in Winston-Salem. Okay, okay. Is it only used to be Piedmont Baptist College and then Piedmont International University after that?

Okay, okay. It is it's online but it's also a physical college as well that used to be Home and they were one of the the big Independent fundamental Baptist type colleges back in back in the day, you know on par with Bob Jones and In Pensacola, they've they've gone.

I Don't want to say soft. But they're no longer King James only they a Lot, they're their college their other their school. The university has a business program a leadership program education nursing Biology, but it has a divinity program as well.

Few years back. They absorbed Tennessee Temple University when it closed down John Wesley University when it closed down or John was a college I forget but they And there was another one something I afford I think but when they shut down they kind of absorbed them and They've actually been doing pretty good.

They were in this real small campus in Winston-Salem for a long time and I just got notification right as I was, you know getting into school that they they purchased a new a new facility and it big and nice.

Apparently they're doing pretty well, but the quality of the education is great they are sort of a dispensational Baptist, so not at all where I'm coming from but. But the one of the reasons why I like the school is that they that for the students.

They have a shorter, but very very orthodox Statement of faith that they make you hold to and then they let you know where the professors are coming from. So even if you don't come from the same perspective, you know where they're coming from and then you can you get some good back-and-forth.

To where you're really challenging your beliefs you can challenge them and there's no respectfully. Of course, and it helps you kind of work some stuff out figure some stuff out. So it's a pretty good school.

Gotcha Let's I mean, that's fantastic. Yeah, plus I'm only like eight or nine credits from getting my MDIS. Or eight or nine classes. I'm sorry not credits. Oh, okay. I was gonna say you are close. What yeah, I've got well, I've got 45 C45 earned credits and a couple more that are going to transfer over and then Yeah, I've only got a few more after that.

So go team.

Well, I'm I'm just starting. I've been on a educational hiatus for a long time and I'm just starting back a few decades. But I'm I'm trying to fit it in. I'm finding it difficult, but I'm trying to fit it in Where I can.

Thankfully, you know, the Lord has Has worked in hearts of men to offer Seminaries that are more Financial friendly and At your own pace, but yeah. All right. I was accepting and has started forged theological seminary.

For anybody that's curious and it's it's an online they do have Terms or a Limit, you know, it's it's not you don't have forever to work on one course. So, you know, there's there's that. So, you know, and I appreciate that it helps keep you accountable.

It pushes you a little bit So you don't drag it out. But I feel like most people who are going to seminary and I have the mindset anyway they they want to get in there and work hard and Accomplish it and I would love it.

It's something I would love to accomplish the I'm going for Masters in theology and I'd love to accomplish it for the glory of God to help me understand Scripture better. You know a better minister. So, we'll see we'll see.

You just keep on trucking along if you need any help you let somebody else know.

No, you let me know I'll be right there for you. I appreciate it if you can only read the material for me. I.

Could I don't know what good that do you but I could. Oh.

Well, I have. And hopefully we'll pick something a little bit more simple next time but in addition to the seminary reading Dan picked out a book which and it's a great book. It's a really good book. It's by Harrison Fergus like I said before it's reformed covenant theology and.

And I'm reading that Dan is he had started it for I did he's ahead of me, but he so he's coming back Meeting me where I am, but I'm reading it with him and we're on chapter 4 applying the covenant of works and where the covenant of works is is the covenant that God made with Adam at the beginning right.

What the Covenant of Works Means for Adam and for Us

Can you give a brief summary of the covenant of works?

Yeah, covenant of works. Is that covenant that was made between? God and Adam at creation that if Adam were to be Computer just went in sleep mode. Anyway, if I won't I won't go to sleep. Maybe my computer will I won't.

Maya. If Adam were to be faithful with what God had put him in the garden to do to tend the garden and Not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That he would be given from the tree of life and gain a greater deeper relationship with God we believe that to be the same relationship that we will gain as as Believers in in the consummation.

So after we die and our bodies are raised and they're glorified and our Finally, we no longer have the ability to sin and every you know Tear is wiped away and everything is is good and pure. That's what Adam could have achieved through.

Through obedience and he would been gifted You Know the immortality of body and and.

Incredible Communion and fellowship with God. Mm-hmm. I think you mentioned something like that in this chapter. He says the goal is still the same.

But but the means in which it's acquired is different. So right? Yeah, so well Adam was able to do it by works. Mm-hmm. We are not so when Adam failed we all failed with him. Yeah, so since we say since he's in we sinned You know by coming into the world corrupt and then sending ourselves.

So we can't keep the law of God anymore. We can't do the things that God would want us to do anymore because we've already sinned and our sinners by nature but we can be gifted that Very same Experience of eating from the tree of life that was promised to Adam through Christ.

As Christ is come and lived a perfect life died in our place was buried risen again Seated at the right hand of the Father now. He gives us these good gifts of Salvation and the spirit to to work in us that we will Eventually receive the fullness of What Adam could have gotten through works, but we don't receive it through works.

We receive it through grace, right?

Right, and that seems to be one of the the beautiful things about studying Covenant theology or reform covenant theology. Is that reading through this material you begin to see the the continuity throughout.

We're God's plan working out. When when I say the goal is still the same so God's God's plan and God's goal, which was Everlasting rest everlasting close communion with himself Between us and God that that goal is still the same, but we messed it up.

So therefore There had to be this this God himself coming coming in to play Coming into time coming into the world to to rescue us because he's the only one that could fulfill that covenant of works. And you don't see that continuity in the in the dispensational.

Type theology. Well you do but it's a different sort of continuity. It's not a covenantal continuity it's a continuity of Of God working in in the world. But it's disjointed in that the way that he works in the world is different through different dispensations.

So he's been testing us in different ways all along the way we've been. We've been failing. But it kind of makes you wonder like at one at one point if we were to have succeeded with that of You know would that have changed things and I don't think that's the case and I don't necessarily think Dispensationalists would think that's the case because they still read, you know Genesis 6 where it says that you know, the thoughts of man were always evil continually.

They still read in Romans 3 that no none of sin. No, not one. Everybody's like like an open grave. Venom of snakes is on their lips. You still got people like John MacArthur. So, you know, I don't know.

I don't think that they would they would go that far and especially in the newer iterations of dispensationalism. They don't have multiple ways of salvation like you could. Probably pull out of the Schofield the first Schofield Bible and maybe some stuff from Darby.

You don't have that anymore. They don't they don't they don't go there. Yeah. But yeah, I mean there's a little bit of continuity and that God's working but he's working. To prove us faithless and himself faithful the whole time.

Yeah, which I guess covenant theology does the same thing, but it's a much different way of showing it, right?

Well, the first sentence that I highlighted to kind of summarize part of what we were talking about is is on that first first page. Believers today should remember that the covenant is still where we find ourselves before God walking with him in Christ's grace.

That's that's where we find ourselves today. The our our representative which is something he talks about in this chapter. God God made us to have a representative. It was first Adam and he blew it. So that blew it for everybody, but then our second representative God himself coming in the flesh.

Fulfilled this this covenant of works that that man Mankind could not fulfill and so therefore we enjoy this this communion. This this covenant is fulfilled in Christ and therefore we can walk with him by Christ grace.

Mm-hmm. Which is which is a beautiful thing a humbling thing. Oh, yeah, it pours out gratitude. That he would rescue us.

Creation, Rest, and the Tree of Life

Yeah, it's it's good stuff it's good stuff so it's it's wild to me that I Guess it shouldn't be. But it's it's kind of it's kind of wild that the someone would think to apply the covenant of works. Now I've been reading off and on.

There's a for there's an a-volume said there's only four of them out right now they're translating the other four By a guy named van Maastricht. It's a fantastic systematic theology but one of the things that he does in every head of doctrine that he goes over is He talks about you know, where do you get it from Scripture?

He defends it Theologically he answers the questions of critics, but then the last thing he does before he moves on He applies it. So every head of doctrine, you know, so God's omniscience. He'll apply that to the life of the believer.

The divine simplicity he'll apply that to the believer. So when you come to something like the covenant of works I Don't know I guess I always thought well that was something that had been done and failed and And so why would I try to apply that to my life since I'm not under that covenant or Since I fall on the wrong sides as a as a covenant breaker of the covenant of works Why would I try to apply that to my life?

But he made some really good points in here first off applying it to Adam and then showing how. Well, not everything that applies to Adam applies to us because there is a little bit of difference a lot of it applies to us because who we we fell in Adam, so we can find a lot to apply to ourselves as we've fallen in Adam and then we can just like we can apply things to ourselves as We are risen with with Christ and in grace Kind of brings that that whole thing where Adam fell Christ is the second Adam.

So, you know, what do we do in the meantime? Mm-hmm. So yeah, I just thought that was those an interesting concept. And so it's pretty neat to to apply You know, what is a covenant of works in? The garden You know stuff from Genesis Wanda like 3 -1 What does that have to do with me?

I thought that was really cool.

Well that reminds me part of this chapter and You can help me out as I try to I'm looking for it. I'm trying to remember as well. But how does it apply to me how does the covenant works apply to us to me?

In it part of this chapter that that Comes to mind is he talks about how we we approach it in two different ways. He's well he says Because Adam is our representative and the government works was made with with him and God It was in Adams nature To Obey God That was in his nature.

So they're there. We're post Adam. We're post fall. So we have a fallen nature. So our to The two places where we stumble when it comes to the law. And the covenant of works is he says first is legalism and it may make sense that that we would We are grabbed we gravitate towards legalism because it was in our nature.

It was in our nature to obey God and follow the law To to have that relationship with him. It's just been all messed up because of the fallen cause of sin. Right, right almost like.

You ever see one of the little robots where you crank him up on the back and they walks and. And then you see him where he walks and he'll fall over. They still walk him he's just falling over he's not going anywhere.

It's it's almost like that. We have fallen into sin. We can't get up. But here we are still kicking and screaming like we can do something about it when when we can't we're just sitting there, you know.

Walking nowhere and doing it doing it quickly running out of steam, you know before we'll be picked up and tossed away. Except for the grace of God to give us the strength to be stood up, right? Yeah.

Well that second second place that we stumble when it comes the covenant works and our relationship with it and a relationship with obeying God and his law He says is antinomianism and that of course that does come from our fallen nature our fallen state.

And he says what is antinomianism is full rebellion against our natural programming. We gravitate to obeying God because it was in originally in our nature and so there's some of that I guess still left in us, but the antinomian ism or Without law a law a law of our of ourselves.

Is full rebellion against our natural programming our rebellion against? That that gravitation to obey God, please God, yeah, we can't we can't get right either way.

And you ever seen that show parks and recreation. I know what you're talking about. Alright, well there if you haven't seen it There's a there the local government for Pawnee, Indiana, right and there a sister city was somewhere in Venezuela.

Anyway, they have these Venezuelan people come over and the Venezuelan folks are part of a dictatorship. And they're really really rude to the people at the local government in, Indiana. At one point is that I don't understand you got the Venezuelan guy up there and you know, it's a comedy show.

So he's telling all the things that so I don't understand why you people are acting like this like in Venezuela you go right to jail. They said you you overcook chicken right to jail undercooked fish right to jail see overcooked undercoat right to jail.

That's like us, you know, you you try to try to gain righteousness by the law. Right to jail, you know, you're not going anywhere you try to to live your own life of rebellion right to jail. Overcooked undercooked right to jail.

It's the way it is with us. We can't get right no matter which way we turn which is why we need grace instead of works. No, there's there's a hole you gotta look that one up that's a it's a funny cliff.

He started off showing through through creation. How there was a pattern of of Work being completed and then there being a blissful rest in the end. So he showed how how in creation? God had worked for six days to create everything that we see, you know, the the plants and the the birds and rocks and planets and stars the crab nebula and everything Created mankind at the end of that.

He rested and he rested because He was to enjoy the fruit of his labor and He showed how how. The first thing he gave Adam to do on day eight was hey you've got work to do and You've seen the pattern where I've been working and then I took my rest.

One day your work will be complete as well. When your work is complete you will enter into a full rest now. I don't know exactly what point that would have been. But it would have would have had to have done what with Adams obedience to Christ or Yeah to Christ to God.

As he Didn't eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil as he did work to you know. Name the animals and and extend the Garden of Eden to the whole land of Eden and then you know off the off the mountain into the rest of the world to watch Everything become beautiful at some point the tree of life would have been extended to him and that rest would have Would have been there for him that same rest type of rest that God had the completion of his creation.

Yeah, and I thought that was though that was really Incredible because not only did he point out that the tree of life would have been something that he could have taken and grabbed and eaten That Mixed with the promise of God that that would have brought him into that No uncorrupt incorruptible state where he would have been in full complete communion with God like we're looking forward to in the future.

He also showed that how when he fell. What we see in the Bible hold it held out to us in the end is still that tree of life. You know, it's not like the covenant of grace and in salvation is its plan B.

Plan a all along was for us to as humans to to gain a greater and deeper fellowship with God. Yeah, and We do so Because of God's promises and his gifts to us. Yeah, it was Obtained those promises and gifts were obtained and open through obedience in the covenant of works and now through grace.

Yeah, I've heard this thing is it's fantastic. Yeah, I appreciate how he points out.

Longtime fan of answers in Genesis and Ken Ham and his. His defense for the 24-hour creation day, of course is the the qualifiers for each day there was morning there was evening. This was the this was the first day and he he says that that happens During the days of the week that each one has a qualifier.

But but Perkins points out that that's that seventh day didn't have that last qualifier. Which signifies that that when when God completed? His work he completed his work. And so therefore he began and an everlasting rest.

Mm-hmm and One of the things that popped in my mind when I shared our program. Maybe last week or so. I Put on the top and asked the question. Why did Adam live so long? That that's one of the things that popped in my mind when when I was reading about this creation story and the covenant works and what God did what he was doing and and I thought Adam lived on her in 30 years and.

This is just speculation. But you know what why did Adam why did the you know, those first our Ancestors live so long beyond the fact that you know, God created them. You know without sin God created them.

Without all these genetic fallacies that that we carry with us now besides all that I Don't had a I don't had work to do. You know, we I think we talked about this in a previous chapter and you brought it up tonight.

We you know, we don't we don't know what at what point Adam was going to move from The the state that he was to that to that point where he was in that Everlasting rest that deeper communion with God.

We you know, we don't know exactly when I was.

Nobody was a glorified body. Glorified, but yeah exactly glorified body.

We don't know when that transition was going to take place, but it's kind of hinted at there was if there's a Work to do if we're marrying if we're imaging God God did a work God completed his work and then there was an everlasting rest as a so therefore when God gave Adam Job to do he gave him work and so therefore Imaging God there had to be a completion of that work and so Whenever that was going to be whatever that that line is whether okay, the Adams work was complete I guess that's when the transition would have happened, but it made me think that has to be one of the reasons why Adam and and his immediate ancestor or Descendants live so long.

It's because they they had a work to do. Right, it's a.

Yeah, yeah, he had the work to do. It's also incredible that that the The the tree of life is is what was going to be what what marked that change. So yeah, he was he was to stick around. No, obviously if without sin, he wouldn't have died but It May have taken a while for him to to do everything.

Know the period of testing may have been more than you know. Not 90 day per day probationary period like you see at work. Yeah. It may have been in nine hundred and thirty year probationary period. We don't know.

It may have been longer may have been shorter. We don't know but we do know that at the end of it. He would have been extended the the tree of life. But he had work to do. It's also incredible that we are still being extended that tree of life in in the future with work to do ourselves to go into the world preaching the gospel to To baptize The nations and teach them all that God has commanded.

Really our job is no different than than Adams and that we're supposed to take what is Not. We're supposed to take what is what is Beautiful and given by God and extended over the face of the earth. Which also means that we would have a Sabbath day for ourselves.

Looking forward to that full and final Sabbath rest that we find, you know at the end at the consummation, right? Let me throw this.

Speculation curveball at you. It stems from something I heard recently. And To to a very small degree. It makes sense and I don't think we can spend spend too much time Thinking on it because there's just not enough information.

But Adam lived 930 years, right? He's really close. He's really close To that millennial mark. No It's only speculation but is yeah, we find the Millennium we found a thousand years elsewhere in Scripture and Everywhere else it's it's figurative language and we would believe as eschatologically it's creative language.

It's just interesting that He was so close to the thousand-year mark.

Yeah, well also if you look at Methuselah the no oldest oldest dude in the Bible. Was it? 963 969 years something like that. No almost a thousand. If you pull his time out on a timeline It's likely he died in the flood.

Which is which is interesting especially when you when you look at. You know the way God has described the flood. You know as the flood being being likened to baptism. How there was only eight saved and yet there was a water a watery judgment upon the earth.

I. Just. I mean, I don't know if you could pull any hard doctrine out of there. But it's just it's just neat to see those types of connections in the scripture, right? Exactly I.

Real quick going back to our previous conversation about the covenant works and and the law and our relationship to it. And those two places where we stumbled with it legalism and antinomianism. I really appreciate because I Had not thought about our relationship with the law in this way.

I appreciate a lot about this book earlier I Referred to it to help me understand a little bit better, but I called it a love list. He said we we were we relate to God because because of the work of Christ in us we can relate to God through the law and.

With the idea that it's it's a love list not not a law list anymore. It's it's how we relate to God and then he he spells that out when he says. And I just had it that that the law is here it is the law is legal and he says and.

Relational. Yep, you know and and I've always viewed the law as in in its legal aspect. But but until you know studying this reform covenant theology book I never tied in that that relational aspect of the law and and how it's it's.

You know originally we looked at how? God put on Adams heart. To to relate to him in a certain way and and that and it's always been relational. It wasn't necessarily, you know legal which it was but there was that relational aspect.

The Law as Legal and Relational

Yeah, well even Jesus.

You hear people abuse this all the time, but they call it the law of love. We're free from the law, you know the letter of the law now are free to the law of love. But really what if you listen to what Jesus said?

He says this is and a new commandment I give to you now if I took away all the other ones. But here here I give you a new commandment. And what is it that you love one another even as I have loved you that you also love one another.

So, what is it that we were supposed to do? In in Obeying God and keeping the law. It's not that That we gain righteousness, but because we've been credited righteousness through faith. We love God and our neighbor and we work to that end to love God and neighbor.

Not because our work save us. But because Because God doesn't need our works to save us but what God has done is given us neighbors who do need our works and caused us to come out here and Given this opportunity to love one another.

Yeah. And it makes sense now that people would point out even going back and looking at the Ten Commandments that that you can divide them vertically and Horizontally showing that they're relational. Yeah.

Yeah, that first relationship is is incredible. Don't. Yeah, don't choose any other gods. Don't manufacture any other gods, right? Don't say that. I'm your God when I'm really not I. Mean, it's the first three commandments right there.

Yep. Yep.

Going back to the beginning of the chapter there's there's a question that I want to ask you and see if you could give me a little help on the Understanding from from where he's coming from because I know he's coming from more of a Presbyterian background and This type of language.

Is more in line with How you guys speak and understand and substance administration language, is that what you know, no, but I.

Hopefully. But I think it's Okay, let me find it. Let me find it. I know where it is on the page. It is has to do with all right. I think it's page page 84. He quotes. Yeah, yeah, he quotes but I can't pronounce the name.

Bobby. Includes the sometimes in the covenant of works before the fall. When there really were no means of grace they the reformed listed the Sabbath and this was before the fall the Sabbath paradise the tree of knowledge and the tree of life as Sacraments.

So can you help me and those who might be listening? Explain what what he means by sacraments and then how the reform Theologians the reformed church they understood that pre-fall Saw that the Sabbath Paradise your knowledge and the tree of life how they saw those as sacraments.

Yeah.

So, all right, so sacrament is something Physical and tangible mixed with the Word of God to give us a connection to Connection to to to to to God in some way so the way we would think of it in the New Testament is that the baptism is a mixture of water and word that that the water in and of itself is Is Nothing special because you take a shower every day, you know, it washes dirt off your body.

But when mixed with the Word the grace of God To cleanse for sins really does come to you through through the gospel. Same thing with the Lord's Supper, you know while it's just bread and just wine when combined with the Word of God.

It says in 1st Corinthians or was that 1st Corinthians 10 that you you're actually partaking of the body and blood of Christ. So when he says the same thing here that these are sacraments. When he says that the the Sabbath and paradise and it's just a day of the week and in a garden which They're just normal regular Things it's just a day.

It's just a garden but when mixed with the promise of God of his eternal rest and Complete paradise in relationship with God. It's it's a sacrament of promise of an eternal rest with God through his through his Word and promise.

Same thing with the knowledge of good and evil that they would have Obviously in sinning they got it the wrong way, but they would have been given the knowledge of good and evil. In a perfect way have they not reached out and grabbed it when they weren't supposed to.

The same thing comes with especially with the tree of life. Which we see that the fruit from the tree of life would have been just fruit. But when mixed with the Word and promise of God Eating of that fruit would have gained a greater and deeper relationship With God so it would have caused him to be in a glorified body and had a greater Greater communion with with the Father even even to to.

I Would say probably able to to go into the presence of God in heaven and still live upon the earth. So did that help answer your question, you know, because Sacrament is really just it's a mixture of something plain and ordinary in this world with the Word and promise of God.

Mmm, it's word for it. It becomes more than just that thing.

The mixups. Yeah, it seems to be. How you're explaining a way that a way that we can commune with God in a in a unique Special way, you know based on his direction. Sure, it's directed this.

But it's not just make up sacraments as we go. Right, right.

But I say that because it's it's his means and So therefore it's a unique special way that we have a taste of That deeper communion With him that he's promised. And he also Describes similarly later on in the chapter you're talking about the the tree of life and how you were explaining sacraments.

I think he describes the tree of life as or he reminds us that the the tree of life There wasn't anything magical about the tree itself. Adam had to Be fully obedient and complete his work to therefore have access and Gain the the benefits the fruit of the tree of life.

Right. Yeah, it's it's it's just a means in which God gives his gifts to his people a Physical thing with with mixed with the Word and promise of God.

We have the humble Baptist podcast with us tonight. He says there's a theory of the long life we see in the people before the flood that were Vols around firmament in the creation essentially being an ice canopy around the earth.

They came down in the flood. I can send a video later just to give you heard about this.

Yeah, it's wild the theory is that there was either a water or an ice canopy that went around the entire earth. So that when the waters came down the waters also came up during the flood and what happened was it?

There was there was a lot more pressure on the earth and a higher a higher concentration of oxygen. Which would have allowed things to grow bigger live longer to be able to process foods better. So and that's why some people think that some of those dinosaurs that are just massive.

They've got these little bitty nostrils, you know in a really long neck. Where's like, how could they ever? Breathe. Well, they were able to breathe because the oxygen was thicker. Yeah, the plants were bigger because there's a lot more oxygen and carbon dioxide they know the dragonfly is the size of a Volkswagen because of all those things and so.

Shortly after the flood you see the lifespans go from no six seven eight nine hundred years, too. Was it four or five generations later? Yeah, Abraham is at 120 years because you're losing the oxygen and it's spreading out and stuff.

Yeah, wow, it's a it's a it makes a lot of sense it fits with scripture, I don't know if it's if it's The reality or not, but it seems to fit it does and when you were saying that I was about to say I was about to say water canopy, but I didn't.

I didn't want to sidetrack us, but I like it.

Well scientifically it does give an explanation that the only thing That may throw a wrench And it may not let me get your perspective. When we think about eschatology And we think about the new heavens and the new earth and when it says that when somebody dies at a hundred They're gonna say what they died young and so there's there's this expectation that As things are getting better.