May 6, 2024 Show with Jerry Johnson on “Uncle Jerry’s Hodge-Podge Lodge” (Part 2)

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Earth. We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this sixth day of May, 2024.

I'm thrilled to have back a returning guest today. My dear friend, Jerry Johnson, who is a

Reformed Christian apologist and documentarian, most well known for his highly praised, renowned

DVD series, The History and Theology of Calvinism. And today, we are going to be addressing part two of Uncle Jerry's Hodgepodge Lodge, fielding questions on any topics related to Christianity, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Jerry Johnson.

Thank you, Chris. By the way, the Lord just told me that anybody who's listening gets 10 ,000 years off their time in purgatory.

And I'm going to give - All right. That was a joke. I'm going to give our listeners our email address right away, so they could join the party at chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence.

Before we take any listener questions, I know that Jerry has some topics of his own that he wants to address today.

Let's start with the topic, how should we then feel? All right,

Chris, this is a drum I've beaten for 20 years, maybe 30 years, but I run across a lot of people, especially people that went through the government school system, and they're always saying,

I feel, and they might say, well, I feel that we should do this.

And really what they are meaning is they mean,

I believe or I think, and I have tried to get people to understand the farthest back

I can go in time, somebody may be able to correct me, but if you read books prior to the 1970s, that seems to be when it started.

And a big thing on I feel, and I do a sermon before I had the stroke called

The Word of God and the Child of God. And I always start out with quoting 2

Timothy 3, 16, and I'll go like this. I'll go, all feelings are given by inspiration of God.

Oh, that's not what it says. Remember when Christ said, man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

So I change it to say, man shall not live by emotions alone.

Oh, that's not right. How about Habakkuk 6, 4, my people perish for a lack of feelings.

It doesn't say that. It always says the word and it emphasizes the word.

And unfortunately, a lot of people are saying I feel, even Christians, and we need to get away from this because feelings are not important.

I don't really, I like what Ben Shapiro always says. He says, facts don't care about your feelings.

They don't. Facts do not care about your feelings at all. So this is a drum

I beat because I hear it a lot of times. My lovely wife and I will watch

Judge Judy. We're kind of addicted to Judge Judy. And a lot of these young people get up there and go,

I feel, I feel, I feel. And she always corrects them. I don't care how you feel.

I want to know what you think or what believed or what happened, not your feeling about it.

Your feelings can betray you. The word of God lasts forever.

It is better than any two -edged sword. And we need to get that word feeling.

I mean, I don't want to blow off feelings as if they're not important, but they're not the prima facie thing that we need to focus on.

We need to focus on the word of God. Yes. How do I feel or what do you feel about this?

How do you feel about this? Has become so much a part of the vernacular of our day, and for decades it has been, that even

I, even I, Chris Armisen, I have caught myself and perhaps

I say it more than I even realize and have not caught myself, but I have caught myself asking guests, how do you feel about that?

I try to, if I am noticing this error, I try to stop myself and say, wait a minute,

I meant, what do you think about this? And I have often, politely as possible, corrected my guests when they have said the same thing.

So it is something that has, and it is more important than people think, or more important than how people feel, because you get into the realm of, you are departing from objective truth and reality and entering into the sphere of subjectiveness.

Let me tell you a story. My lovely wife, she used that term quite a bit when we first started going out and we were coming up to a crossroads and it had a traffic light and I wasn't slowing down and she was, of course, grabbing the seat and the dashboard and she started screaming, what are you doing?

What are you doing? And I looked at her and I said, I don't feel like the light is red. And she goes, okay, point well taken.

And she's never really done that again. So you threatened her life just to get her to change her vocabulary?

Yeah, just to get her to change her vocabulary. So, but that was something because if we don't emphasize the word and what we think about the word, understand what we think or believe doesn't have any bearing at all.

What it says has bearing. So, yeah, in the end, we just can't go off of feelings though.

I like one time I was talking with RJ Rushdooney and really

Rushdooney wouldn't have known me from a hole in the wall, but we were at a conference and we were having lunch and lo and behold, he sat down right in front of me.

And I thought, man, this is a good opportunity to pick this man's brain. And it was something,

I mean, he was really adamant about that, you know, and I told him, well, I am too.

But a lot of people are going or saying, I feel, I feel. And that was something that he was very much against the idea of saying

I feel. And what he told me was, you know, I wrote a commentary on the law of God.

God's law sometimes rubs me the wrong way as a human being, he said.

But God didn't ask me to like it. He asked me to obey it.

And I thought that was great because what he was saying is my feelings are not important to what

God has said. And in fact, I could be wrong, but I believe that the vast majority of opposition to the doctrines of sovereign grace, those precious teachings that you and I also nickname

Calvinism or reform theology. I believe that most people, when they recoil in horror, when you explain what you believe about those doctrines, from my experience of interacting with people, they are basing their reaction mainly on feelings.

Because in fact, when I first heard these teachings described,

I reacted the same way. And I basically was saying, this just cannot be true because it makes me feel so uncomfortable.

And people have to stop doing that with anything that is, when it comes to exegeting the truths of Scripture and understanding and embracing those things.

We cannot let our feelings override what is truth.

For example, Dr. James R. White, very dear friend of mine, who you actually know,

I know, and you have actually spoken at a conference with him.

I believe it was one of Michael O 'Fallon's cruises, where you— That's correct. —he debated a

Calvary Chapel professor named George Bryson.

And he debated him, before they did a live public moderated debate, they did a debate on the

Bible Answer Man, hosted by Hank Anagraft, before Hank apostatized into Eastern Orthodoxy.

And George was obviously trying to work on the emotions of the audience by saying things like,

James White believes that if your baby wanders out into the road and is hit by a car and killed, that God ordained that.

And he was obviously intentionally trying to play with the heartstrings of people.

And it was interesting, Hank Anagraft, who is calling himself, in the tradition of Walter Martin before him, the

Bible Answer Man, and yet James White, in that debate on the radio, was the only one using the

Bible. Well, he was the only one that was predominantly using the

Bible to prove his points about theology, whereas both

Hank, who was supposed to be a neutral moderator but was far from it, and George Bryson were really just trying to base everything on how they feel, and they were trying to make the audience decide who was right or wrong based on their feelings.

And this could really create a shipwreck of faith, can't it?

Yeah. I've watched that debate. It's probably been 20 years ago. It might not have been that long, but yes, that is what he did.

And I notice a lot of people, when I talk to them, now, I usually don't bring up the doctrines of sovereign grace unless they do.

Let me tell you a little story about that. I'm not going to say the man's name. I'm just going to say his name was

Alan, which is correct. But he had asked me one time, we were talking on the phone, and he was a good guy.

I honestly, he was probably one of the most lovely men I had ever met. And we were talking on the phone, and he said to me, are you a

Calvinist? And I said, well, it all depends on how you define Calvinism.

And he said, I don't understand it. Can you explain it to me?

And I said, yes, I would be willing to do that, brother. But first, I've got to ask you a question, and I want an honest answer.

And I said, first off, turn to Romans 3. And he turned to Romans 3.

And then I had him, I asked him this question. Do you believe, honestly, that there was a time where you were seeking

God? And he said, without missing a beat, he said, yes. And I said, okay,

I could say the same thing. And I think that's important because my feelings could tell me

I was thinking the same thing. But Romans 3, 10, and 11 tells us that nobody is good, no, not one, for no man understands

God, no man seeks God. Now, when you couple that with that Christ, Luke 19, 11,

Christ came to seek and save that which was lost, that might be

Psalms. I'm losing my mind here. But anyway,

I think it is the Psalms. I think it's Psalms 119, 11. You're looking it up.

Actually, I was looking at something else. Oh, all right. All right. Anyway, I told

Alan to read that. He read it out loud. And I said, now, Alan, are you going to believe the word of God, or are you going to believe your own experience?

And it was like every light turned on in his head. I mean, all the passages that he had been wrestling with for years.

And we went through them. We still went through all the other passages. But he realized that his experience, his feelings, his intuition was clouded.

And the word of God is not. So he started looking at it totally different.

Now, let me ask you a question about that. One of the very few times

I ever disagreed with the late R .C. Sproul, other than those distinctives between us, him being

Presbyterian, like you, and me being a Reformed Baptist. R .C.

Sproul said that the only person who seeks after God is someone who is regenerate.

And I disagreed. I totally affirm

Romans chapter 3, obviously, when Paul is listing all of those things that man cannot do.

But I believe, and perhaps you disagree with me on this, I believe that logically, he must be talking about man in his natural state before he was regenerate.

And because, like, for instance, the verses also say no one understands.

So, obviously, a person who is born again, when he reads his Bible, he can understand it.

So this is, you know, to me, it must be speaking about man prior to regeneration, if that he doesn't seek

God. But I believe— Not the true God. Not the true

God. And they may be seeking an idol that they have fashioned, but I would say they're not seeking the true

God. Well, here's still where I have some disagreement. I believe that man, if he is one of God's elect, there may be a point in his life, and I think that this is probably the most dominant situation.

I think very few of God's elect, when hearing the gospel for the first time, immediately believe in it.

In other words, you know, God immediately transforms their hearts and minds, gives them new hearts, and gives them the gift of faith.

I don't believe that the majority of the time that happens instantly, the first time somebody's hearing the gospel.

So I believe that there is very often a period during the drawing process where God is drawing his elect, that before they are truly regenerate, they are starting to question their life.

They're starting to question their philosophy and worldview and belief system.

They're starting to abandon things that they perhaps believed from their youth, that they are realizing are falsehoods.

And so there is a period where they are seeking, not because they are acting upon their unregenerate flesh alone, but because God is the one drawing them, and God is chipping away at their hearts.

And for instance, according to R .C.

Sproul, only a regenerate person seeks God. Well, why is a regenerate person seeking

God still? If he is regenerate, he's found God. Well, he isn't on the search for God anymore.

So there's where I am on that, and I've had some Reformed people say,

I agree with you, brother. And I've had some say, no, I'm on Sproul's side here. So going back to my original point, why would somebody be seeking

God who's regenerate if they already know who God is? They've come to discover by the sovereign grace of God who he is.

They have come to discover that he is one God and three co -equal and co -eternal persons.

They have come to understand that Jesus Christ is

God in the flesh, fully God and fully man. So why would they still be seeking

God if they were already regenerate? So am I making sense? Yeah, but I think at that point, you're kind of splitting hairs.

I read a 19th century Unitarian once. And he said, in order to deny the doctrine of the

Trinity, one must first deny the Bible is the word of God. And I thought, at least he's honest.

And he understood that the Bible taught the Trinity. He understood it, but he did not embrace it.

He did not believe the Bible was the word of God. So you're asking a question, and I tend to agree with Sproul on this one, that the thing is the dismantling process of the current worldview.

See, that's what happened to me. A lot of stuff I was taught in school, I had to go through and be dismantled.

But that was when I started asking honest questions. And at some point, the

Lord regenerated me. And I believed on the Lord Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

Right. And that is the point when you were regenerate. Right. But what does it mean to be drawn by God then?

I mean, isn't there a process that God is drawing us? And that doesn't necessarily mean that we are already born again when he is drawing us.

My own testimony of salvation, I was raised

Roman Catholic, became disillusioned with Catholicism when I was in eighth grade, right before my confirmation class, when asking the priest of our parish, is heaven a real place or a state of mind?

And he, in his post -Vatican II modernistic understanding of things, said, it's a state of mind.

And he said that, I said, man, I don't want any part of this religion. That was almost that fast.

I went through with the ceremony being confirmed, but I very soon departed. And then over the years,

I was investigating Mormonism. I was investigating all kinds of religions that proclaimed

Christ, but did not believe any of them.

And I believe it was the moment that God turned that switch on in my mind and removed my heart of stone and gave me a heart of flesh when

I said, Jesus is exactly as he describes himself in the scriptures.

And thank God I found this Reformed Baptist Church by God's mercy and grace, who is teaching this true

Jesus. And I went from avoiding being baptized like the plague to,

I couldn't wait to get baptized. I couldn't wait for my family, friends, and loved ones, especially those who were lost.

I couldn't wait for them to see me baptized. And so, you know,

I was searching, you know, before I was regenerate. You were being dismantled is what

I would say. I was what? You were being dismantled of your worldview.

Yeah. See, I even believe, I even believe an honestly intellectual person, they need to be dismantled of their worldview.

That has to be taken or that has to happen first, whatever their worldview is.

And by the way, just so you know, and your listeners know, once we get to heaven, everybody's going to end up being a

Reformed Presbyterian. Here's another example.

A young lady that I know, precious young lady. Uh, she was living the life of a lesbian, living with a woman and having sexual relationships with this woman.

Uh, the more and more she has heard of the biblical truth on this, uh, it has been gnawing at her conscience.

Uh, she ended the relationship. She moved out of the, the apartment where they both live together.

Uh, and she is still attending, uh, worship services, uh, every week, but even to her own admission, she doesn't believe she's born again yet.

Isn't that some kind of searching? And then I'm saying this, remember not because she is acting out of her own unregenerate heart and mind alone, but it's because God is drawing her,

I believe. So, yeah, that, that is something brother that I don't know if I can answer, you know,

God dismantles the worldview of somebody. She's searching for something.

I don't know if she's actually searching for the biblical God. Well, I don't know that for a fact, but that's the way it appears.

And if, if that day, if that day comes when she's saved, I can't help but view those months and possibly years before she gets saved, that there was a drawing process occurring where she was searching before she was regenerate by the grace and mercy of Christ.

It was drawing her. Yeah. And that's something I can't answer. Like I said,

I have a tendency to agree with R .C. Sproul. I can't even say his name,

R .C. Sproul, but I have a tendency to agree with him.

Again, I believe we're splitting hairs. I know that the scriptures say no one is seeking after God.

I believe that is the God of the Bible. And so they're going through a dismantling process, which

I had to go through. Now, was God involved in that? Yes. Do you want to call it the, the draft drawing or the dragging?

Yeah, that's possible that that's part of it. I don't know. But he just wants me to see that the house

I was in was on fire. But one last question about this before we go to the commercial break.

Why is a born again person still seeking God? If it's true that only a regenerate person seeks

God, why are they still seeking God? Hasn't he already revealed himself to them and haven't they already embraced him?

Brother, I would say this. I'm still seeking God. I mean, not— You want to get to know him more deeply as the song day by day goes, to follow him more nearly.

But you're not seeking to discover who he is still.

That is correct. I'm not seeking to—I'm learning more and more about him.

I'm learning more and more about his justice and his mercy. And, you know,

I hope, Lord willing, that I continue on that path. But that's going to be a lifelong process.

I believe even in heaven, you remember the movie,

The Godmakers? Yes. The Mormon movie, the anti -Mormon movie. Yeah.

I had lunch one time with the guy that was in that, Dick Bayer.

Okay. Did you remember him? No. I'm sure he was one of the two guys that did it, that brought that lawsuit in that video.

And anyway, Dick was a wonderful man, a good guy. It was me, him, and his wife.

And we were in Carterville, Georgia, and we had lunch together. But he made a comment, because we were talking about Walter Martin.

And he said, Walter Martin, who now has all the answers. Well, I don't believe—I believe that we're going to learn more and more about God as eternity goes on.

Yes. Well, we have to go to our first commercial break. And if you'd like to join us with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Give us your first name, at least, city and state and country of residence. And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a very personal and private matter.

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That's completely understandable. But if it's a general question, please give us your first name, at least, city and state and country of residence.

Don't go away. We will be right back with Jerry Johnson. Puritan Reformed is a Bible -believing, kingdom -building, devil -fighting church.

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But today, I want to introduce you to my senior pastor, Doug McMasters of New High Park Baptist Church on Long Island.

Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur.

In the film Chariots of Fire, the Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt

God's pleasure when he ran. He knew his efforts sprang from the gifts and calling of God.

I sensed that same God -given pleasure when ministering the word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and love for God.

That love starts with the wonderful news that the Lord Jesus Christ is a Savior who died for sinners and that God forgives all who come to him in repentance, trusting solely in Christ to deliver them.

I would be delighted to have the honor and privilege of ministering to you if you live in the Long Island area or Queens or Brooklyn or the

Bronx in New York City. For details on New High Park Baptist Church, visit nhpbc .com.

That's nhpbc .com. You can also call us at 516 -352 -9672.

That's 516 -352 -9672. That's New High Park Baptist Church, a congregation in love with each other, passionate for Christ, committed to learning and being shaped by God's word, and delighting in the gospel of God's sovereign grace.

God bless you. I'm Pastor Bill Shishko of The Haven, an

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I'm Pastor Keith Allen of Linbrook Baptist Church, a Christ -centered, gospel -driven church looking to spread the gospel in the southwest portion of Long Island, New York, and play our role in fulfilling the

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We believe in salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. This salvation is based upon the sovereign grace of God, was purchased by Christ on the cross, and is received through faith alone, apart from any human merit, works, or ritual.

Salvation in Christ also results in righteous living, good works, and appropriate respect and concern to all who bear

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Lord's Day, we'd love to have you come and join us in worship. For details, visit linbrookbaptist .org.

That's l -y -n -brookbaptist .org. This is Pastor Keith Allen of Linbrook Baptist Church reminding you that by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves.

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if you haven't bought mom anything yet and please mention Iron Trip and Sign Radio because we will get 100 % of the profits from that sale.

That's royaldiadem .com, mention Iron Trip and Sign Radio. And I'm not going to belabor this issue before that we began before the break, but I just want to make sure

I give a caveat. I, Chris Arnzen, am a firm believer of the doctrine of total depravity.

I believe Romans three verses 11 through 18 are true in describing the natural man in his lost unregenerate state.

I am just saying that I believe that before regeneration, uh, there is very frequently, if not most often a drawing process that occurs when

God is drawing his elect to himself. And that involves by his mercy, by God's mercy, the person beginning to seek

God, not man out of his own unregenerate heart and mind, but the softening process, the softening of the heart,

I believe reveals itself, uh, with men beginning to seek

God. And, uh, I probably got a lot of Calvinists mad at me, but I just don't understand how a regenerate person needs to seek

God when they already must know who he is. But anyway, uh, before I go to any listener question,

I want to go to the second issue on your own list, justification by death, if you could explain that.

Yeah. And that's another drum I like to beat because I see it. I hear it all the time.

Um, I actually wrote something out. Can I read it? Go ahead.

All right. There was a porn actress who headlined many pornographic films.

She had a drug and alcohol problem. She was arrested numerous times for stealing and she wound up committing suicide at the tender age of 24.

I was watching a news clip about the tragedy on YouTube and her friends were saying how good of a person she was and that she lit up a room when she walked into it.

One even said now all of her problems are solved now that she is in heaven.

Now, let me make clear. I don't know if she's in heaven. She may have been a good person as far as the world is concerned, but it doesn't matter what the world thought of her and matters what

God thought of her. Her friends said she believed in God. I'm just going to take a side note here.

Even the demons believe there's one God and tremble. So just believing in God is not enough.

And I would actually say that that is part of the fashioning God in your own mind and after your own likeness.

Let me go on. Justification is in Christ alone and it is a life -changing faith.

This young lady may be in heaven. I'm not her judge, but if we believe what

God says in his word, it doesn't look good for her. Now, I say all that to say this.

Most folks don't believe in justification by faith anymore. They don't even believe in justification by works.

They seem to believe in justification by death and this the

Bible does not teach. And that is a quote from R .C. Sproul talking about him.

And it is one of the things I see it all the time on Facebook. I want to say hello to my father or happy birthday to my father who is in heaven.

Now, I knew their dad. Their dad was a womanizer. He was a drunk. He got pulled over for DUI countless times, three or four times.

And I am not his judge. I don't know if he received Christ at the last moment.

I don't know. But the thing is, I think it is very cruel for people to talk about justification by death.

I believe we need to talk about justification through Christ alone.

Amen. And obviously, when you say people are believing in justification by death, they're not actually verbalizing it with that phrase.

That's correct. They don't say it in proper words. Right. And that is something that probably most frequently takes place when a family friend or loved one dies.

Very often, even the preacher himself will speak to an audience as if this person is with certainty in heaven.

And this goes back to the very first thing we started to talk about. They're basing very often on this whole circumstance on how should we then feel they are thinking about how much they love this person or how fond they were of this person.

And they're basing where they believe or what they feel their eternal state is based on their feelings.

And you're not doing anyone a service when you speak this way, because you are also putting sinners listening to this.

I mean, we're all sinners, but you're putting lost, unregenerate people in a state of false security when you describe open rebels to God and his gospel as being safe in heaven, because the fellow rebel is hearing this and saying, well,

I guess I really don't have much to worry about. Am I making sense, Jerry? Yes, you are.

I've seen it, like I said, a thousand times. And, you know, I don't come out and say, no, they're probably in hell because I don't know, you know,

I'm not their judge. But I do know this. The Bible says have faith in Christ and that faith is a life changing faith.

And if it's not life changing, it might not look good for them. But in the end, you're not justified by death.

You're justified by faith in Christ alone. Amen. We have a question from a listener.

Let's see. I was just looking at it. Now it's disappeared. Okay. Randolph in Garfield Heights, Ohio.

And Randolph says, I was looking at social media where you were describing and promoting your interview this

Friday, when you are going to be providing a critical examination of Bishop Mar -Marie

Emanuel. People were horrified that you would dare to question this man's theology, especially after he was brutally near fatally attacked by a

Muslim during a worship service, viewing him as somebody who was brave enough and courageous enough to face death proclaiming the gospel.

How dare you, they said, but are we to base someone's

Christianity on their boldness to face possible martyrdom or even if they were martyred?

Yeah, that's a great question. I have responded to people already saying just because someone is brutally tortured and murdered for the faith doesn't mean the faith for which they were brutally tortured and murdered is a true faith.

There are people who die for a lie, in other words. Am I right? Yes. Yes. In fact,

I'll tell you, I was at a Baptist church. I'm sorry. Ah, what are you sorry about that for?

And there was a guy there. He just believed, or he seemed to believe, if you are conservative and you are

Republican and you were going to vote for Ronald Reagan, you must be a Christian.

And I told him, brother, that is not the case. There are a lot of conservatives that are still not

Christians. Just because you hold to political conservatism doesn't make you a

Christian. It can make you schizophrenic, but not a Christian. So we've got to be careful about that.

I saw, I haven't watched a lot of interviews with this guy, so I don't know what he says.

I think the question might be more geared towards you. Uh, I'm sorry.

Oh, you mean the listener? Well, the listener's question might be geared more towards me. Yes. Well, perhaps, but obviously you're my guest, so I asked you as well, and I obviously disagreed with those sentiments.

Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, was a martyr. That's just one example.

Right. You know, there are Muslims who, because of their conviction that dying in battle for the cause of Allah is guaranteeing them a high place in the afterlife.

So obviously that doesn't validate what they believe. Now, there is a difference between that and the eyewitnesses to the resurrection of Jesus.

You will very rarely, if ever, find people willing to die for a faith that they know is a lie.

That's different, right? I mean, one of the great evidences supporting the claims of Christianity is that many people who were eyewitnesses of Jesus's resurrection went to their deaths, and they wouldn't have done that if they knew that was just baloney.

Right. Yeah, and I don't know you talk about this guy. I guess you're doing a radio program.

Yes. In fact, Tony Costa, Dr. Tony Costa, professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary, is my guest this

Friday to discuss this man who is growing in popularity through YouTube, primarily.

He is the founder of a church called the

Church of the Good Shepherd in Sydney, Australia, and it is somehow connected with an

Assyrian sect of Christianity, but this church is a new independent church that he founded, and he is a full -blown idolater, when it comes to his worship of Mary.

Of course, he would never say that he worshipped Mary, but his adoration of Mary is clearly worshipped, just as every

Roman Catholic that venerates Mary is clearly worshipping her, etc., etc.

So, anyway. That is one thing I do not understand, is

Mary is mentioned a few times in the Bible. I mean, I forget how many times, but they have created an entire substructure of theology out of her.

In fact, we have to go to our midway break right now, so don't go away, folks. We'll be right back. I'm Dr.

Joseph Piper, president emeritus and professor of systematic and applied theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.

Every Christian who's serious about the Deformed Faith and the Westminster Standards should have and use the eight -volume commentary on the theology and ethics of the

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Dr. Morecraft is pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, and I urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation.

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For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com,

heritagepresbyterianchurch .com. Please tell Dr. Morecraft and the saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia that Dr.

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Before I go to any listener questions, let me hear what your thoughts are about scientific megalomania.

All right. Unfortunately, this is not a drum I have beaten lightly, but one of my favorite statements that I say to Christians all the time, and even the non -Christians, and I want you to burn this into your memory.

I tell them science is not an exact science. They look at me and they say, what?

There is no such thing as scientific proof. Science cannot prove anything.

It could give us a probability, but based on induction, the science that we have today is just a probability.

It is not dead certain fact, and many Christians and non -Christians and really their pundits on the news seem to think that science can prove things, and it can't.

From what I've seen, science through the method of induction, which is actually called the scientific method, violates two of the main laws of logic, the law of denying the antecedent and the law or the fallacy of asserting the consequence.

Now, let me explain what both of those mean. Asserting the consequence, if you and I were to go to a cliff, all right, and throw a rock off the cliff, how many times will it hit the

Kenyan floor? It will always hit the Kenyan floor, unless it falls on a ledge or something.

Unless God intervenes, like the time that Jesus walked on water. So, gravity or the law of gravity, there's no such thing.

There's gravity, but it's not a law, all right? And unfortunately, if you throw one rock off the cliff, yes, it'll probably hit the

Kenyan floor. If you do it a thousand times, it'll probably hit the Kenyan floor.

If you do it a million times, it'll probably hit the Kenyan floor. But you can't say that every time it's gonna hit the

Kenyan floor, because you don't know. And that is why it becomes a probability.

Now, denying the antecedent goes like this.

Suppose Joe Biden, or anytime it rains, Joe Biden carries an umbrella.

Joe Biden is carrying an umbrella, therefore it must be raining. And that is what they call asserting the consequence.

Joe Biden may be carrying an umbrella for numerous different reasons, and we can't tell what those reasons would be right up front.

And that is what I try to get people to understand about science, is it does, based on induction, have its limitations.

Yes, I would not follow Joe Biden's example on anything. So I would not even care if he was holding an umbrella.

I would not assume it was raining. But yes, and what people have to keep in mind, obviously, is that people are typically going to believe what is called science when people that they have a fondness for tell them that science.

In other words, you have leftists who believe everything that the current president and his sycophants will claim from a podium about science because they are leftists, and they think that is akin to heresy to deny the science that their leftists, their fellow leftists are claiming are, you know, existential threats to the survival of humanity.

They are following in lockstep. And you may have conservatives who are wrongly believing in things just because people that they like are saying, you know, could be saying a whole host of things.

In fact, there are many conservatives who bought into the lies of the left regarding science during the

COVID crisis and so on. But I'll give you an example of this.

Eugenics was considered science, was considered true science by many people in the

United States. And eugenics was basically the idea that we can breed a superhuman race and weed out all of the negative genes of those that are inferior, whether it be those viewed to be inferior because of bigotry, like those who are black or Asian or Jewish or any other category.

Adolf Hitler was a firm believer in this. In fact, my former home,

Long Island, was the home for the eugenics laboratory, the headquarters of the eugenics movement,

Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory on Long Island, a beautiful area on Long Island that I've been to many times.

But this was considered science that white

Nordic types were superior. And Hitler was enamored with this whole philosophy.

He learned a lot of his lies that he embraced from Cold Spring Harbor, Long Island.

And it is believed that even his belief of extermination of the

Jews came out of this. And one person that was a firm believer in eugenics was the inventor of Kellogg's cornflakes,

John Harvey Kellogg. And just to get our listeners to understand things more clearly about things like this, you did not have to be a right winger to be a eugenicist.

In fact, there were many who were considered liberals who were eugenicists.

That would include Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenthood. But John Harvey Kellogg was actually excommunicated from the

Seventh -day Adventist Church because he believed in a social gospel. He was, in essence, a liberal, but he was an avowed eugenicist.

And they believed that it was an act of mercy to sterilize blacks and others so that they could not reproduce anymore.

And we would be doing them a kindness, I should say. We would be doing them a kindness by bringing them to the point of non -existence.

And so I just wanted to throw that in there. When all these leftists claim that you're a

Neanderthal because you're not believing in the popular science of the day, does it mean that you're believing in anything more than a fairy tale?

Did I speak too long on that? Yeah, Chris, let me give you a modern example.

Okay. My wife and I's oldest son is 33 years old.

Of course, wanting to be good parents at the time he was born, we got a book that talked about child rearing.

By the time we had our last child, which was in 2001, we got another book.

And many of the things that were talked about in that book, the latter book, not only didn't mention the things that we have done for Tyler, but actually overturned some of them and said they were bad.

Don't do these. So here we had one book in 1989 telling us, do this.

And by 2001, don't do that. Some of it can be detrimental. Medical science will give you a probability, but it will not give you a certainty.

And the only thing that gives you certainty is the word of God. Amen. Well, let's move on to the myth of neutrality.

That's a very important subject, because I think that there are multitudes of people who even somehow have a delusional idea that they will be safe from God's wrath if they remain neutral on something, like embracing

Christ. As long as they don't openly rebel in their minds. Of course, they are already rebelling.

But if they are not a God hater, if they are not an open serial killer or what have you, if they remain in this limbo of neutrality, that somehow

God's not going to punish me if I'm neutral. He may punish me if I am a Nazi or a

Klansman or something like that, but he's not going to punish me for being neutral about things.

But if you could pick up where I left off there. Yeah, I'm going to quote Dante from his

Inferno. And I would actually encourage people to read that. I'm not saying that everything in it is accurate, but it was a good book.

But Dante said, the hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in times of moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.

And I would agree with him. The myth of neutrality, what we're actually talking about, it kind of goes back to the scientific megalomania.

The myth of neutrality is believing that facts can be neutral.

First off, who gets to decide what the facts are? I mean, you can have many people deciding what the facts are.

And so we can't even agree on what the facts are. And when you're looking at your worldview or looking through your worldview, that is going to determine my worldview is built upon the

God of the Bible. And that's where it ends. I try to speak where he speaks, where he doesn't.

I might engage in some speculation, but it's just that. It's speculation.

It's not the word of God. And that is what we've got to remember is that a lot of facts are not neutral.

Everybody is going to look at them differently. And they're going to look differently at defining what the facts are.

And we have to remember that they're what God said they are, not what we say they are.

Amen. And I don't know if you are complete in that thread of thought, but we do have a listener question.

The listener says, and this is an anonymous listener, uh,

I always am asked by those who are non -Christians that it would be impossible for me to know 100 % that the

Bible is true and that God exists. How do I respond to such challenges from non -believers?

Both the Westminster Confession of Faith and the 1689

Baptist Confession tells us, or I'm sorry, Confession tells us that I believe the

Bible is the word of God because the spirit has revealed it to me. Now, am

I going to convince a non -believer that it's the word of God? No, I'm not going to convince them until they're regenerate.

They'll believe it themselves, but an unregenerate, unrepentant child of the devil,

I'm never going to convince them that God spoke through the Bible. I'm just not going to do it.

Isn't that a key element of presuppositional apologetics? Yes, it is. That we don't need to belabor ourselves by allowing unbelievers to take us on rabbit trails when we just are supposed to declare the truth to them and let the chips fall where they will, because God is in sovereign control.

We are only planting and watering seeds. God gives the increase. Romans 1 tells us that even nature reveals

God to the point where men are without excuse. We need special revelation.

We need the word of God to actually understand the gospel and believe in it.

I would say even to understand creation, to understand everything.

Now, some people, getting back to this brother's question, I'm guessing it was a brother, but yeah,

I don't know either. Actually, hold on. Yeah, so it was a brother.

I was making a joke. I'm sorry. Okay. All right. Yeah. The thing is, you are called to declare the truth.

You let God worry about the consequences of that. You're called to do what is right, and that's what you're called to do.

If they don't believe the Bible is the word of God, all the argumentation in the world, they may say the

Bible is a good book. They may say that it does this or it does that, but in the end, they're only going to believe that it's the word of God because God reveals it to them.

Amen. Amen. Well, let's move on to another one of the themes that you wanted to address.

Why creeds and confessions? I have done full programs on this, and we could start off,

Jerry, by having you dismantle the lie that those that claim to be anti -credal and anti -confessional accuse us of slanderously, is that we do not believe in the sufficiency of Scripture, and therefore, we are going to human documents that are not

God -breathed, that are not divinely inspired, in order to understand the

Bible. And they would say, in fact, Roman Catholics would certainly say that we are being hypocritical and inconsistent if we claim to believe in sola scriptura, but there are a lot of independent fundamentalists who claim to despise creeds and confessions and just say that it goes against the

Bible alone being our sole infallible guide to all that is salvificly required of us.

But number one, aren't good creeds and confessions merely summaries of what the

Bible teaches? And number two, doesn't every human really have a creed and confession?

Because even saying, I have no creed but the Bible, that is a creedal statement. Yes, it is.

And brother, I need to ask you, how close are we to taking a break? We are 13 minutes away.

13 minutes? Yes, that will be our final break. I thought we took a break at the bottom of the hour.

We already did that. That was the midway break that we took a break. All right.

All right. All right. Fine. Let me say this. I'm going to do it by a story.

All right. I had a guy that said to me one time that no creed but Christ, no book but the

Bible. And I asked him, define the Bible. Define Christ.

Tell me who they are. And the minute he opened up his mouth, he was developing a creed.

So it's disingenuous. Now understand, I hold to the Westminster Confession of Faith, but the

Westminster Confession of Faith is not the Bible. So I don't look at it as the

Bible. It could be wrong. You know, my preacher, my pastor, he could be wrong.

You know, so what I want to know, though, I consider saying a statement like that more disingenuous than anything, because the minute they open up their mouth, creed simply comes from the

Latin word credo, and it simply means I believe. Yeah, this is what

I believe. And this dear brother that said no creed but Christ, no book but the

Bible. I said, what if you're defining the

Mormon Christ? What if you're defining the Christian science Christ? What if you're defining the

Jehovah's Witness Christ? And of course, he wasn't doing that, but he saw the minute that writing it down, this is what

I believe about Christ, because this is what I believe the Bible teaches about Christ.

Yes, in fact, if you're going to be real consistent on this, you should never, if you are a pastor, preach a sermon.

You should ascend into your pulpit, read the Bible, close it, and sit down, because—

Yeah, that would actually be more honest. That really would. But the thing is, the

Jehovah's Witness defined the deity of Christ, as do the Christian science. The Mormons believe he's the spirit brother of Lucifer, and oh, they might say

Satan. Lucifer is the mistranslation of, what is it,

Isaiah 9. But anyway, the minute you talk about Christ as being

God, the second person of the Trinity, the Son of God, the minute you do that, you're creating a creed.

And they like to say that. Now, when it comes to the Bible, I ask them, what

Bible? Is it the Roman Catholic Bible, which includes the

Apocrypha? Is it the Mormon Bible, which includes the

Book of Mormon, Science and Health, or I'm sorry, the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrines and Covenants?

Is it the Christian Science Bible, which includes Science and Health with keys to the

Scripture? All of those add to the Bible. So, you need to define what the Bible is.

And the Westminster Confession and the Baptist Confession of 1689 both defined what the

Bible is, the 66 books that make up the Old and New Testament.

And that is our Bible. That is what I believe. Now, having said everything that we said,

I'm sure that you would agree that although I am very confident that this makes up a tiny minority of confessionally reformed people, but exalting creeds and confessions to being on par with the

Bible, that does happen. I've experienced people doing that, or at least giving every evidence in the way that they speak that they are dangerously either coming close to that or crossing the line.

So, we have to be very careful that we do not develop an idolatrous view of our heroes and even our denominations and our documents.

But I don't think that that is the majority of what is happening with people who are openly and consistently confessional.

I like a lot of stuff that John Calvin wrote. I don't agree with all of it.

I like a lot of stuff that C. H. Spurgeon wrote. I don't agree with all of it. They could be wrong or I could be wrong, but usually it's more on minor issues than major issues.

On the major issues, they're going to agree, and that's where I rest my hat.

Now, I'm going to try to quote R. C. Sproul, and I hope I don't slaughter his quote.

I want you to hear this because I thought this was a great quote. He said in his book,

The Holiness of God, he said, church history is a guide.

It is not the rule. If you come upon a passage or you have an interpretation of a passage that has escaped the notice of every

Christian for 2 ,000 years or has been championed by universally recognized heretics, the chances are pretty good that you should abandon your interpretation.

But what I liked about it was the beginning when he said, church history is a guide.

It is not the rule. And that's what we've got to remember when it comes to creeds and confessions.

They are a guide. They are not the rule. So we don't elevate them to the same level as Scripture, or we shouldn't.

Excellent. And we have a listener question. Orlando in Rochester, New York wants to know, what do you think are the most dangerous beliefs and practices in the church at large, and then also specifically in the

Reformed church today? All right, let me check. At the church at large,

I think the biggest problem, and I know there are probably people that are listening, but I would say dispensational theology.

I think that is at most more akin to the Gnostic heresy.

I believe it is wrong on many levels. And I see it crippling churches.

They have a tendency to focus on eschatology. I was having lunch with a guy, this probably goes back 28 years ago, and I was having lunch with a guy, and he kept saying, you're amillennial interpretation of Scripture.

And I kept, you know, I told him at that point, what

I believe about eschatology is irrelevant. Dispensationalism seems to put a focus on eschatology, and that is what ultimately made conclude that dispensationalism is not a theology, but an eschatology.

And you can even check that out, test it out. If you go to a dispensational church, the first place they take you is to the last book of the

Bible. They want to make sure they have your eschatology right before they get into theology.

And that is why every dispensational, systematic theology that I read ultimately fails.

You know, usually it's just a collection of sermons or lectures that somebody gave.

Now, before we go on to the second part of his question, which involves problems within Reformed Christianity, don't you believe, however, that there are many dispensationalists out there, like John MacArthur, who, although makes a lot of Reformed Christians cringe when he does talk about eschatology, eschatology is not the hallmark of his ministry.

He is actually, I could say without hesitation, one of my heroes of the modern -day church, and his errors or those things with which

I disagree are not the predominant aspects of what he proclaims.

And there are people like that who don't make their eschatology something that they hammer away at every

Sunday or most Sundays. But on the other hand, there certainly are churches like that, and many televangelists like that, and many authors who are titillating the imagination of people to increase book sales and all that kind of thing.

It was interesting to see how many books came into print during the crisis in Gaza right now on The End Times by some major televangelists and so on.

But do you think what I said has merit, that we can't broadbrush dispensationalists? Yeah, I would.

I love John MacArthur on many things also. So what

I'm going to do is, there is a difference between theological error and heresy.

John MacArthur doesn't hold to anything that I see that is heretical. I do believe he holds on to some things that are theological error, but I probably do also.

And you probably do also. I know you hate hearing that, Chris, but it's true.

Speak for yourself, pal. We'll have you address

Orlando's second question when we come back from our final break, which is, what is, in your opinion, the greatest problem today amongst

Reformed Christians? We'll do it. And if you would like to ask a question of your own, send it in immediately, because we're rapidly running out of time.

Chris Orenson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We're going to be right back after these messages. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

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Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially. Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our

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If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

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Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign

Lord, God, Savior, and King Jesus Christ today and always.

Hi, this is John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona.

Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnzen and the Iron Sharpens Iron podcast.

I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the

Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast, knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.

I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised

Chris up for just such a time. And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.

I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

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I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com

where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com. I'm Dr.

Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher McDowell.

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God, like the dear saints at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Coram, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word and to enthusiastically proclaim

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I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as I have.

For more information on Hope Reformed Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

That's hopereformedli .net. Or call 631 -696 -5711.

That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

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It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners from all over the world.

Here's Joe Reilly, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed,

Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Reilly, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener here in Atai in County Kildare, Ireland, going back to 2005.

One of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is Dr. Joe Moorcraft. If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr.

Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia are largely to thank since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.

Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.

Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards, and Dr.

Joe Moorcraft is the author of an eight volume commentary on the larger catechism. Heritage is a member of the

Hanover Presbyterian built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great

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But today, I want to introduce you to my senior pastor, Doug McMasters of New High Park Baptist Church on Long Island.

Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur.

In the film Chariots of Fire, Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt

God's pleasure when he ran. He knew his efforts sprang from the gifts and calling of God.

I sensed that same God -given pleasure when ministering the word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and love for God.

That love starts with the wonderful news that the Lord Jesus Christ is a savior who died for sinners and that God forgives all who come to him in repentance, trusting solely in Christ to deliver them.

I would be delighted to have the honor and privilege of ministering to you if you live in the Long Island area or Queens or Brooklyn or the

Bronx in New York City. For details on New High Park Baptist Church, visit nhpbc .com.

That's nhpbc .com. You can also call us at 516 -352 -9672.

That's 516 -352 -9672. That's New High Park Baptist Church, a congregation in love with each other, passionate for Christ, committed to learning and being shaped by God's word, and delighting in the gospel of God's sovereign grace.

God bless you. Welcome back, folks. I want you to remember that this program is paid for in part by the law firm of Buttafuoco &

Associates. If you are the victim of a very serious personal accident or medical malpractice wherever you live in the

United States, call 1 -800 -NOW -HURT, 1 -800 -NOW -HURT, or visit the website 1 -800 -NOW -HURT .com,

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Associates that you heard about his firm from Chris Arnzen of Ironsharpen's Iron Radio. Also, I want to remind all men in ministry leadership, you are invited to the next free

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If you want to register, send me an email to chrisarnzen at gmail .com and put pastor's luncheon in the subject line.

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Cumberland Valley Bible and Book Service, who will be shipping that Bible out to you at no charge to you or to us.

Jerry, if you could pick up on what you believe is the biggest problem amongst

Reformed Christians today. Well, am

I on? Yes. Yeah, I am. All right. I would actually say two.

We probably don't have time to get to both of them. But one of the things I've often lamented,

D. James Kennedy was preaching at a PCA General Assembly, and I'm thinking it was around 2007, and he was talking about in the

PCA, less than 53 % of churches have somebody joined by new professional faith.

And he said people will come up to him when he's at a General Assembly and say,

Dr. Kennedy, I don't use evangelism explosion because I have some problems with it.

And Dr. Kennedy responded, I have problems with it too. But until you come up with something better, do it.

Now I say all that to say this. I am a Calvinist. I believe in the doctrines of free grace.

But the Calvinist, the Presbyterian, even the Reformed Baptist, our battleship is very well polished, our guns are polished.

But we're sitting in the harbor, we're not doing anything. And we look across the bay, and we see the

Armenian ship, the good ship lollipop, with its holes in its sails, and holes in his deck, and it's all ratty looking and it's made out of wood, setting sail again.

And that is what I would say is one of the problems that I see within Reformed Presbyterianism, or the

Reformed campaign general. We don't do enough to get the gospel out there. And we need to do that.

Chris, it was about a year ago, you sent me a quote by John Chrysostom.

Now for people that don't know who he was, he was a fourth century preacher. They depending on who you read, they called him the golden mouth, or the silver tongue.

And he said this, and I'm going to quote this, what you sent me. If you knew how quickly people would forget about you after your death, you wouldn't seek in this life to please anyone but God.

And I believe that is a great quote. And we need to remember that.

I'm going to say it again, because I wanted to seek in your listeners. If you knew how quickly people would forget about you after your death, you wouldn't seek in this life to please anyone but God.

Now my dad died in 2014. He wasn't a great man. He was your run of the mill man.

He was your run of the mill Christian. Probably me and my sister remember him.

Nobody else. I mean, they might think of him every blue moon. But I will ask people, because I had this quote, made into a t -shirt, and I wear it, and people will ask me about it.

And I will say to them, you know, a few years ago, Priscilla Presley died.

How often do you think about her? And they'll say, well, I've never thought about her.

Well, in 1978, Elvis Presley died. How often do you think about Elvis Presley?

Maybe once a year. 2 ,000 years ago,

Caesar Augustus died, or Julius Caesar, I'm sorry, died.

How often do you think of Julius Caesar? Well, probably never.

And even thinking about them, what can you do? Well, I can do nothing.

And that's what I say to them. And I say, the only person that can do something is

God himself, the Lord Jesus Christ. And that is really who you need to be worried about remembering you.

And it leads into a very good witnessing opportunity.

And that's why I made that shirt. I say this quote as a icebreaker to many people.

Sometimes they will agree with me, but they're not really wanting to hear the gospel because they want to continue in their sinful life.

But what I'm called to do is preach the gospel to every creature. And that is what

I want to do. And that is what I think the Reformed Church needs to do. Unfortunately, I don't know if we're doing that much.

Well, we are out of time. Brother Jerry, I look forward to you returning to this program.

And we still have not addressed law, oaths, and vows.

And we could add that. Yeah, lawful oaths and vows. Right. And we could add that to our conversation next time.

And I also want you to start the show with reminding me that person, their second, or their question, and I want to address the second part.

Okay, I will. And tomorrow on our program, we are being visited by my old friend,

Dr. Joe Lasardo, pastor of Bread of Life Fellowship in Wayne, New Jersey, which is a

Reformed Baptist congregation. And we are going to discuss, You're not David, or are you?

Gleaning application from the Bible's most popular story. And I want to thank everybody who listened today.

I want to thank my guest, Jerry Johnson, for doing such a superb job. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater