Book Study: The Mystery of Christ, His Covenant, and His Kingdom (Part One)

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All right, we're going to go ahead and jump right into it. We're going to start with chapter one when he talks about biblical and systematic theology.

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I would say that for sure, biblical theology and a proper understanding of systematic theology is going to guide you in the way in which you understand covenant theology and the unfolding of the biblical doctrine.

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So, Justin, maybe give us your thoughts on just, I think, how important biblical and systematic theology is to covenant theology, and then maybe start with a definition of biblical theology and we'll kind of go from there.

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Yeah, so they're both important, biblical and systematic theology. I might start by just clarifying the difference.

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I'm sure many are familiar, but systematic theology, we'll start there, is an exercise of summarizing doctrine from all of scripture.

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So whenever we teach doctrine or we even look at confessions of faith, for example, we are looking at work of systematic theology, where saints through history corporately together have looked to God's word and asked questions.

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What does God's word teach about this subject or this subject? What does it teach about God? What does it teach about man?

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What does it teach about sin? What does it teach about the person and work of Jesus, et cetera? That is systematic theology as we survey all of scripture and make summarizing statements about truth and doctrine.

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Biblical theology would be, as the term would imply, looking at the entire

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Bible from Genesis to Revelation. You look at the unfolding story of redemption, and we then aim to understand that grand narrative and where certain passages, certain texts fit within that grand narrative, and we try to understand the flow of redemptive history.

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So you guys have heard us use terms at Theocastle all the time, like the redemptive historical framework of scripture.

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Well, for us, that is effectively synonymous and functionally synonymous with biblical theology.

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It's the grand story of scripture. What is the point of the Bible? And then answering that question, the point of scripture is

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God's plan of redemption accomplished through Christ. We then would understand the parts of the

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Bible in light of that whole. And so it's very clear that both of these things are going to be really essential to our conversation on covenant theology.

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We've got to understand the grand story of scripture, the unfolding nature of revelation, but then also we're going to be surveying that unfolding plan of redemption.

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We're going to be surveying all of the Bible and then making doctrinal statements about what's going on in certain portions of scripture and how we would then understand

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God's covenants, how we would understand his work of redemption in light of these covenants that he makes and the like.

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So that's maybe how I'd get it started in thinking about those two things. John, please add to that. Yeah, I grew up around systematic theology, had a decent systematic theology handed to me in seminary and in college.

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But one of the things that wasn't handed to me was a biblical theology, and I would say understanding all of scripture and the point of all of scripture.

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And I would even, when you look at the Bible and you look at the context of the Bible, you know, we are taught to look at the grammar, to look at the immediate context, and then, you know, the greater context, which typically is, you know, the pericope and then the chapter and then the book.

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But what biblical theology teaches you to do and the understanding of it is to look at a specific text in light of all of scripture and the overarching purpose and nature of scripture or the overarching story of scripture, which what biblical theology teaches you to do is understand that all of scripture fits within this umbrella or this overarching story of God redeeming sinners, which starts right in the beginning in Genesis three, and that is going to influence the way.

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So, my first introduction into covenant theology and reformed theology was biblical theology, and once I understood that, it was easy for me to then put all the pieces together.

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Covenant theology seemed strange, and I heard a lot of weird things said about it. You know, it mysticizes the text, it pushes

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Jesus into the Old Testament where he's not there, there's a lot of allegorizing of the text, and when

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I realized what was actually happening, biblical theology helped kind of set that straight, and just go ahead.

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Real brief interjection, John. I think that it's going to become increasingly clear over these four sessions that we do that covenant theology is inextricably linked to that redemptive historical understanding of scripture that we talk about all the time.

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So, for us at Theocast, this is sort of a pull the curtain back moment maybe, we would not know how to talk in a redemptive historical way apart from covenant theology, and so this is really critical for our understanding of the whole grand narrative of scripture, and as has been said by many people through history, it's entirely right to say this and think this.

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If we do not understand the whole of scripture, we will do terrible things with the parts, and so this matters a ton for preaching.

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I mean, without this kind of framework to orient yourself in scripture and to understand where in the world are we, and what is

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God doing, and where does this text stand in relation to Christ, without that question in our minds, we will tend to do really bad things with particular passages of scripture in the pulpit.

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So, this is mega important. We can discuss that a little bit more tonight.

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I know that Sam didn't go real deep into that in the book, so we can add some thoughts and clarity onto that.

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I feel like we've been recording so much lately. I felt like we just recorded something on redemptive historic, didn't we?

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I don't know. I could be wrong. We've recorded some stuff lately on understanding scripture where we talk about some of these things.

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Okay. Okay. All right. So, biblical theology, systematic theology, these two do play into our understanding and really are kind of the foundation of understanding those.

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One of the key points of this book, and I think that it's really helpful when you are interpreting scripture, is understanding the author's intentions and understanding the

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Bible's use of certain types of literature. And so, in the chapters in page 20, when he talks about history and mystery,

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I think that that is one of the most important keys, and if you need to go back and read that chapter again,

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I would encourage you to, or that section, I'd encourage you to do so. Because what is really important there is understanding the progression of scripture.

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So, the Bible is this constant progression where things are being built over time, you aren't handed the whole in Genesis 3, you are handed the foundation in Genesis 3, and then everything is referenced and often referred to and somewhat built upon, but the whole is never there.

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So, as history unfolds, it's unfolding mysteriously. And so, when

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Paul references that the Old Testament is a mystery, but fully seen in the New, that becomes a really powerful point for one, understanding what is happening in the

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Old Testament, and two, for understanding, which we'll get into this in our discussion with you guys, understanding what the role of the

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Holy Spirit's interpretation of the Old Testament in the New, so that would be kind of my initial thoughts on that.

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So, in thinking about history and mystery, it may be a helpful formula to think that in the

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Old Testament, Christ is being revealed to us through farther steps progressively as revelation unfolds.

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The mystery of Christ, in one sense, is becoming more and more clear as we work through the covenants

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God makes, for example, with Abraham, and then Moses, and then David. And by the time Jesus shows up on the scene, the progressive revelation that has already happened, the unfolding by farther steps of God's plan of redemption, makes

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Christ obvious when He shows up and when He comes to do the work that had been planned from before the foundation of the world for Him to do.

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And so, there is mystery very much in the Old Testament, to use Paul's language like you cited, John, from Ephesians, if we think maybe most pointedly, the mystery that was hidden for ages in God and has now been revealed to us.

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So, that's what we're talking about. That mystery is revealed in an unfolding way, and then it is revealed most consummatively in the

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New Testament, under the covenant of grace. As Christ shows up on the scene, everything that had been mysterious and was becoming increasingly clear now becomes obvious and crystal clear.

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As Christ is here, He does His work. He dies. He is raised from the dead.

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He then ascends to heaven. The Spirit comes. The church is established and things become obvious.

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This is what God's plan of redemption has been all along, but there was mystery before and now it is revealed and clear to everyone.

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Yeah, that's good. All right. Well, this is going to lead into our kind of last section. Go ahead.

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Yeah, no, we're headed to typology. I know. Before we do that, before I set us up, I want to say, go ahead and start queuing in some questions.

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You can throw them into the Q &A, or if you want to ask your question verbally, that would even be better.

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Just throw your hand up and we'll enable your audio, but we're going to talk for the next few minutes.

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Or you'll just have to listen to us talk for an hour. Oh, hey, I've got plenty to say. Which you do all the time.

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I mean, I could talk all night, but that'll be my next step. That's right. We're always fighting for the microphone. Yeah, and then

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I'll give some instructions on, you know, if we're having a, if there's a question that's asked and you want to make a comment or have a follow -up question, raise your hand and just throw it in the comments there where the chat is.

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And just say, Hey, I've got a follow -up question to, you know, whoever it is that asked their question. And we'll do it from there.

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So typology, this is really important.

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And I will tell you right now, the more you understand typology, the more it will change your preaching.

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You are going to be able to preach gospel bombs from so many parts of the

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Bible where, you know, the majority of our Old Testament, I'm sorry, the majority of our Bible is

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Old Testament. And the glory of Christ and the greater, I think, explanation of who

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Jesus is comes through types and antitypes because the whole Old Testament is this further unfolding and the shadow getting closer to the substance.

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So in this idea and go ahead. No, I was just going to maybe define types and antitypes for people real quick.

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Right. I'm going to go. Yeah. So that's what we'll do. So in the book, Sam does, this is probably one of the, one of my favorite sections in his book.

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He does a superb job of explaining a type and an antitype, which I can remember the first time

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I heard antitype. I'm like, what in the world does that even mean? I had to Google it and, which was a lot of my experience in seminary.

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I thought exegesis was a bad word. You know, like if people were anti -Jesus, ex -Jesus.

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So, right. Hey, you know, I was 21 years old. I didn't know. So type and antitype.

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So a type is, you know, we'll get into this in more language with what

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Sam said. There's some quotes in here that I want to use, but a type is, the biggest distinction is understanding that a type is not the actual substance of the thing.

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A shadow is such a great example here. So a shadow is not the exact substance as that which is casting the shadow, right?

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It is often a very close and a very graphic depiction of, even in dimensions, but it is not the exact same as.

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And once, a type is always pointing you towards the antitype. A great example that he uses in the book is,

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I love Mexican food and certain Mexican restaurants you go to, you know, it's all in Spanish. And so to help out those who don't speak and read

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Spanish, they show pictures of the food and so you can say, oh yes, that looks like a burrito,

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I'll get that. And when they bring you the plate with the burrito on it, you don't need that menu anymore.

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The menu, the picture of it is the type of the burrito. And once they bring you the burrito, the type goes away and now you actually have the substance.

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And so that is how it's being used is that in the Old Testament, there are many different, there are people, there are nations, there are things being -

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There are institutions. Right. Institutions. Being used as positive and both negative, right? Positive and both negative types, foreshadowing or telling us of what's about to come and most of those leading us to Christ.

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That would be my explanation, JP. Yeah. So just to maybe think a little bit more about types and anti -types and some important distinctions to make before we maybe open it up more broadly to questions and conversation.

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It's important that we understand that it's not just that anti -types are greater than types.

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So the types, like John said, are people, institutions, et cetera, that we find that then point us to something greater, namely the anti -type where the type finds its fulfillment.

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But it is not just that the anti -type is greater. The anti -type is altogether different.

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It's not the same thing in scripture. So for example, I mean, the illustration

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John gave is useful in that, like that photograph of a burrito was never the burrito.

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It could not be the burrito, right? So it's pointing us to something that not only is greater, the burrito is greater than the picture.

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Useful in its own context. So types are useful in their own context. They mean something in their own context.

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And they have a purpose. Exactly. So God works through the nation of Israel in a temporal way.

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I mean, he makes promises that he keeps and he gives them land and kings come from Abraham and all these things.

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And we'll get into that more maybe in future sessions. So types matter. They have their own terms.

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They are meaningful in their own context, but then they point to something greater and different that is to come that is ultimate.

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And so types find their fulfillment and their end in their anti -types.

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And so once the anti -type comes, once the ultimate greater different thing comes, there is no longer a need for the type.

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And so that's where that menu illustration with the photos on it is very useful in helping us to think through this because, yeah, once you bring me my burrito,

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I don't need the menu with the picture on it anymore because the real thing has come. And so that's what we would even articulate about the

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Old Testament and the types and shadows that exist throughout it under the various covenants that are made there.

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And again, we're going to unpack this over four sessions, but that's how we would describe this is that ultimately, once Jesus shows up in the new covenant, the covenant of grace is established and it is accomplished, the ultimate has come and the anti -type is here and the stuff that came before it, while incredible and useful in its own way, has now served its purpose once Jesus shows up on the scene.

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So I think it's good that Sam started the book with some of this stuff. It's almost like prolegomena type material, right?

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It sets the table and it prepares you for what occurs in part two, three, and four of the book.

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And hopefully that's what this conversation tonight will do. So it's a high level conversation that kind of governs everything underneath it.

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And the thing that I think Sam does a really good job in that sometimes those who are from a dispensational background maybe miss what we're saying.

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We aren't saying that the original context is being changed or that it's different, the original context has its original function.

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So for instance, when you go into a restaurant, the original intention of the menu is being used as it was originally designed to be used, right, to point us to something.

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So a great example of this is the blood of bulls and goats. So on page 33, type

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B, he says there's types functions on two levels. Now guys, I'm going to keep going here until you throw us up some questions.

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So somebody raise your hand, throw us a question. He says typology functions... Well now you're going to start talking about the book of Hebrews and I'm going to have to talk about it.

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I know, come on now. Typology functions on two levels. Types may be temporary and preparatory for anti -types, but it is necessary to appreciate their own meanings and purpose in their own context.

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So in this sense, the blood of bulls and goats actually accomplished what initially it was designed to do, which is to cover the dirty, the filthiness of the flesh.

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The uncleanness. Yeah, that's right. But it could not clean their conscience and it could not clean them before God as far as being eternally accepted.

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So the type was useful in its original functions, but the greater function that it was pointing to, which is

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Hebrews tells us, is Christ. And which Christ isn't another animal, but he is the final.

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He is very different. He is similar to, but very different than the type.

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So the anti -type is very different. So the function in its original has not changed, but there is a greater fulfillment seen in the anti -type where it is being applied as far as the blood of Christ.

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Yeah, I mean, it's a beautiful illustration and a beautiful example of this kind of typology in scripture.

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What was the sacrificial system about? What was it for? Well, in its immediate context, it was to make people ceremonially clean.

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You know, when people broke God's law in certain ways, they were declared unclean and could not even be a part of the covenant community.

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And so then sacrifice was required. The blood of bulls and goats was required to make them clean for the purification of the flesh, as the writer to the

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Hebrews says in Hebrews chapter nine, but then the ultimate fulfillment, the anti -type of the sacrificial system comes.

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So Jesus is the Passover lamb in that he fulfills the Passover. You know, his blood covers us just like the blood of the

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Passover lamb covered the Israelites, but then he fulfills the sacrificial system. And we understand that there is no need for sacrifices to be made anymore because the once and for all sacrifice has been made through Christ.

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And it's a very, I think you guys can maybe sense this. It is for me, it's a very doxological reality.

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I mean, it causes and evokes worship and praise and all of what God has done through Christ as we read scripture and understand it and preach it this way.

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It's pretty, it's pretty epic. Very good. Excellent. Great.

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We have a couple of questions coming in from Luke, Jonathan, and Cody. Any of you guys want to hop on here and ask your question live audio?

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Just raise your hand and or just type in the comments here and we'll let you go answer that live.

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Would be great to hear from you guys and start that discussion. If not, we can read your question to the group.

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So any of those, any of those guys, I don't know if there's a lag here, but not hearing from anybody.

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So we'll go ahead and grab Luke's first. All right. So Luke says, hold on a second here.

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Oh, we got someone raised there, Jonathan. Okay, Jonathan, we'll grab your question next here. Luke says, do you think that these like dispensationalism or pietism come from a lack of understanding of biblical theology?

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Uh, yeah, I think pietism for sure. I would say that when you don't understand the flow of scripture and the purpose of scripture, you then have to put it in there.

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This is where you get moralism and you get the applications from the old

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Testament that are completely devoid of the immediate or greater context where we're trying to be like Daniel and David, when we're encouraging people to look at these characters and try and impersonate their lives,

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I would say yes, because that's not the original intention of what was being written. What was being written was designed to give you confidence in the truth that Christ is the

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Messiah and God is faithful to fulfill those promises to us. And I would say that there are, you know, dispensationalism,

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I think, doesn't have somewhat of a, I think, a fuller explanation of biblical theology.

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I don't know if that's fair, but... Well, I mean, obviously we do not agree with how dispensationalists do biblical theology.

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We are contending for much more continuity in God's plan of redemption than they would certainly contend for, and there are many other differences that we could potentially unpack.

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So dispensationalism, I mean, I want to say this charitably, but we would just say is an erroneous approach to biblical theology, to doing it, and there's a number of things that are produced by that error, and there's a lot of fallout from it.

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And I do agree, John, with your take on pietism, that pietism comes from a number of things, but I think a lack of understanding of biblical theology, in particular, this kind of covenantal, redemptive, historical reality of Scripture is absolutely a contributing factor.

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And I don't want to, like, steal thunder from future sessions, but I'm sure we're going to have boatloads of stuff to talk about in upcoming sessions when it comes to, you know, the covenant of works, the covenant of grace, how all these things unfold, and the like.

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And so if we have a covenantal understanding of Scripture, and by that I mean, like, the three large covenants that any covenant theologian understands exist, the covenant of redemption and eternity past made amongst the

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Godhead, where God determined to save a people. The covenant of works, secondly, that is made with Adam in the garden, that's a conditional covenant based upon what humans do.

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And then finally, the covenant of grace that is revealed in Genesis 3 .15, and then we would understand is accomplished and established in Christ in the new covenant.

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Those three covenants, it's a critical piece of understanding the Christian life, right, because if we realize that in every way that Adam failed, like everything that God could ever require of humanity, so Adam failed in it, right, and plunged us into ruin and misery, but then in all of those ways that Adam failed,

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Jesus succeeded. And everything that we lost, Calvin says this, everything that we lost in Adam is ours in Christ, right?

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And so that covenantal understanding helps us understand very clearly that there is nothing left to do.

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What else could be done? Because Christ has done everything. And so then it frees us up to live in Christ, and it frees us up unto righteousness, not licentiousness, but we don't spend our lives chasing after our status before God because we understand that Christ is seen to that.

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And I think that covenant theology is essential to understanding the sufficiency of Christ and his work.

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So that to me is a big connection with how a lack of a covenantal understanding would certainly contribute to pietism.

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Or maybe I would even say, because pietism sort of is our default posture, not having a covenantal understanding of scripture would not combat our natural pietistic tendencies.

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Right. Yeah. I appreciate Luke's question because Luke's getting at kind of why this video conference, this book study exists, is that we've seen the impact of covenant theology changing the way in which we pastor, the way in which we shepherd and counsel, and it does.

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It gives you context for the Bible. It helps you understand its structure. It brings continuity.

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It helps you rely on the sufficiency of God because he is sufficient to fulfill his promises.

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And really, I think it makes the whole Bible come alive with great continuity. I would,

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I don't know if you, go ahead. Yeah. Just one other thought is that it does help you so much as a pastor and as a preacher, as you come to passages.

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Obviously we're talking about passages in the Old Testament primarily here. It certainly, covenant theology keeps you from moralizing the

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Old Testament, that's true. But it also orients you in a very helpful way to make sense of things that are said under certain covenantal or within certain covenantal contexts.

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So there are things that are written throughout the Old Testament that sound like, whoa, like how do you square that with the new covenant?

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And in part, the answer is, well, the new covenant has not yet come. And there are things that are being stated, you know, as the law of Moses still reigns and as yes, the covenant has been made with David, but David's greater son has not come yet.

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There are things like, even when I preached through Proverbs recently, like a covenantal framework helps us understand certain statements that are made about, you know, adulterers never losing their disgrace, for example.

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You know, it's helpful to think about, well, there is a covenant community of Israel, a national covenant with Israel reality that Solomon is speaking to, and then can help us to make some sense of verses like that and help us to see how what

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Christ would do, you know, subsequent to that era of revelation would shed some clarity on that text and how we might preach it and help our people understand it.

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But then also a covenantal framework in our preaching and in our doctrine as pastors, it does really reinforce a distinction between law and gospel, and it helps us to understand like what's going on with the law and its various uses and how the gospel will then be different than the law when it is revealed to us in full.

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And we could maybe riff on that later if there's time, but I don't need to say more about that right now. All right. We're going to hear from Jonathan and Jonathan, I'm going to go ahead and turn your audio on and allow you to ask your questions.

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So it's a great question. And just before he hops on and unmutes himself here, there are going to be a lot of questions that are going to come up over this series, and I will just,

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I will tell you that we're not here to really solve all of the historical debates that have been out there for years.

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We're really here to kind of walk through, I think, the theology behind it.

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There will be some differences and we'll see that. Sam does a pretty good job of kind of really presenting the 1689 position and allowing us to see that.

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So Jonathan, whenever you're ready, buddy, come on on in and we'll hear from that question. Hey, bud.

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Hello. Can you hear me? Yeah, we can hear you great. Welcome. We can, loud and clear. Awesome. Yeah.

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So you mentioned about the restaurant example, the menu and the actual food.

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You made this comment that said that there is no substance at all between the picture and the menu and the food itself.

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Does that kind of show those, or does that kind of point the difference between the Presbyterians and Reformed Baptists when it comes to like the

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Old Testament and all that stuff? Yeah. Does that make sense? Is that like... Yeah, no, that makes, it makes entire sense.

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Well, would you ask, did I capture that correctly or can you have further down that, can you explain more on that or something?

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Sure. Yeah. I mean, so I think, you know, Jonathan and Cody, you've asked a similar question.

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It looks like too, as I'm even looking at some of the questions. So maybe we'll answer both of those together. You guys are pointing to, you know, there's a difference.

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There is a difference in how the 1689 confession and how guys like us who hold to that confession would understand typology versus an understanding that would be reflected, for example, in the

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Westminster Confession or in the Westminster Standards. So first of all, I mean, we love our Presbyterian brothers and sisters.

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And as John said, I mean, this is not, the point of this is not to solve every historical debate between particular

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Baptists and Presbyterians, for example. But what you guys are pointing to is entirely right.

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And there is a difference in how we understand typology and how our Presbyterian brothers and sisters would understand typology.

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And so I think if you guys do want to read further on this, I think even beginning on page 36 in your book, you could look at that later, especially on pages like 37, 38, 39.

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I think Sam does a reasonable job of depicting some of these differences that do exist. But one of the things that, at least in my understanding of a

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Presbyterian perspective in the Westminster Confession, is that a Presbyterian would understand that the types were essentially anti -types in their lesser forms.

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So there would be some sharing of substance between the types and the anti -types, which in our understanding of typology, we would say, no, we think we understand that types and anti -types do not share substance, but that anti -types are altogether a different and greater reality.

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So certainly a Presbyterian is going to agree with us in saying that the anti -type is a greater reality than the type, but where we would differ is to say, no, we think not only is the anti -type greater, the anti -type is also a different substance.

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And so this is where a Presbyterian may use the language of even the covenant of grace, it's one covenant under two administrations where we would not use that same language, even as it comes to the covenant of grace.

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And we'll talk more about that in later sessions in terms of our understanding of the covenant of grace being promised and revealed through farther steps throughout the

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Old Testament, but then ultimately the covenant of grace is the new covenant in Christ, if we're talking about established, fulfilled covenant of grace language.

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So there is definitely a difference. John, jump in. I may add a few more comments, but I don't want to dominate the microphone. No, no.

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Yeah. Page 37, third paragraph, he says, through typology, the old covenant portrayed salvation in Jesus Christ, but it did not offer salvation in and of itself.

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And what he goes on to demonstrate there is that the promise of salvation, everyone was saved by that.

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Of course we agree, everyone is saved in the Old Testament by faith in the covenant of grace.

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And that covenant of grace is first promised to Abraham, and he's going to get into this, but it's first promised to Abraham and then further and built on in further explanation through Moses and then

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David. And then when, yeah, right. So then when we get to Christ, Christ becoming the fulfillment of this type, he is the anti -type, and bringing, as Hebrew says, that the blood of bulls and goats could not save.

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Christ's blood actually saves. And he not only saves those, of course, in the New Testament, he saves retroactively everyone who had faith in God's redemptive plan to save those whom he had elected to save.

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And so I think that's his point there, is that the old covenant portrayed salvation in Jesus Christ, but it did not offer it because in the old covenant, you could not be saved.

32:38

Which would be a distinction there too, is that we would assume Abraham, Moses, and David to be of the old covenant.

32:47

Correct. And we'll get into more of the particulars regarding Abraham, down the line.

32:52

That's not really the discussion for tonight, but I do think that some of the summary statements that are made on page 37 are helpful, like even where Renahan will cite

33:02

John Owen and say that even Owen affirmed that types were not anti -types in lesser forms, that they had a different nature than the types did.

33:10

Or even the distinction of being saved under the old covenant versus being saved by virtue of the old covenant.

33:16

And we would absolutely affirm the former, that people were saved under the old covenant because of the promise of the covenant of grace and because Christ was coming, but they were not saved by virtue of the old covenant.

33:29

Namely, a part of which is the Abrahamic covenant. So we do not understand that the Abrahamic covenant proper saved people, but that the unconditional promise of the covenant of grace realized in Christ did save people.

33:43

And so we'll get into more of the fine points of that later. Does that answer your question,

33:49

Jonathan? Yes, that answered my question. Awesome. Yeah, man. Thanks for jumping on. Please jump on again.

33:56

Cody, I see your comment. You're very welcome for our answer and thank you for your charity, brother, and your kindness.

34:05

Cody, one of our Presbyterian brothers. Amen. Yeah, we love our Presbyterian brothers and sisters. Yeah, John, do we want to take another question?

34:14

Yeah, we've got a question here from Charles. I don't know, he doesn't have his hand up, so I guess we'll just go ahead and read that question.

34:21

And then Charles, as we're talking, if you, oh, there he is. Awesome. Let's have you on here, Charles. All right.

34:28

Welcome. Hey. Yeah, I typed it in just while I was thinking about it, just to clarify.

34:36

I guess I'll read my own question. Yeah. Would you consider extreme instances of fencing the table to be a failure to understand type and anti -type?

34:46

And no, we don't practice that as far as we fence the table. It's like you have to be a believer, baptized, we tell that before every time.

34:55

But I have been, I have experienced as a matter of church discipline, like if you're going through pastoral counseling, you're in sin and you've confessed that, that they ask people to abstain, so based on, and that was kind of heavy on my heart when

35:17

I was reading this type, anti -type, is not seeing that fulfillment in the means of grace on a

35:24

Sunday morning. Just get your guys' thoughts on that. Does that make sense? Yeah, I think so.

35:31

I don't know, JPA, are you following? Yeah, I mean, I'm following the question that was typed. Tell me the not seeing the fulfillment in the means of grace piece.

35:39

Clarify that a little bit, Charles. Not seeing that as a reminder of the covenant of grace.

35:50

That is the fulfillment of that sacrifice. The sacrifice has been made, the work's done, you know, that statement instead of, do this to live, live and do this.

36:03

Right. It's kind of where I landed on that. Sure, bro. I mean, a few, like my initial takes.

36:10

So this is like me from the hip responding to you. I think some of the extreme situations that you're describing where you hear this like really hyperbolic language of, you know, eating and drinking judgment on oneself,

36:25

I think that misunderstanding and a hyper kind of fencing of the table comes from, I think several places.

36:32

One is just, I think a misunderstanding of the context of the letter to the Corinthians and what Paul is addressing there in terms of people getting ill and dying in the supper.

36:42

I think that, you know, pietism, where we tend to have this, this hyper focus on ourselves and how we're doing.

36:47

And, you know, if we haven't confessed our sin adequately, or if we're not grieved enough, we're not remorseful enough over our sin, then we're going to eat and drink judgment on ourselves.

36:56

If our lives are not right, then we're going to eat and drink judgment on ourselves. I think that's a poor understanding because, you know, again, to use

37:01

Calvin's language, the table is not for the perfect, but for the weak, you know, and I think that's important that we would remember that.

37:07

Then I think that in addition, bro, there is a quasi -mystical sort of wacky sacerdotal understanding that some people have about the sacraments, where there is like something magic is happening.

37:21

And, you know, in a way that, again, the only way I know to describe it is kind of a mystical sacerdotal sort of understanding of the table.

37:29

And so like, man, if I, if I drink this, if I eat this bread and I drink this wine, something is going to happen to me in some mystical sense because of a strange view that I have of the, of the table itself and what is even happening.

37:43

Those are a few initial thoughts from me. John, please jump in. Charles, let me please, if that makes no sense, please push back.

37:51

Yeah. I would say, yeah, go ahead. I was going to say that's because even

37:57

I've talked to John before, but I came from a more charismatic background and that was pushed like,

38:04

I mean, you wonder why you're sick? It's because you're a Synod and you're taking the table, which obviously

38:10

I understand would be completely wrong now, but I see that one even, and I'm not going to name drop it, but even inside of 1689 churches, like extremely, like writing books about fencing the table.

38:25

And I think it goes too far. Yeah. I agree. I fence the table every

38:31

Sunday and I do that for the sake of, yeah, I do that for the sake of people's, so they don't mistake what we're doing.

38:42

And the way in which I fence it is that I'm like, look, this is a family table. It's for those who have been baptized, a part of our family, who confess to be children, who believe in God, who believe in Christ by faith.

38:56

And before we even begin, we all do a corporate prayer of confession and we talk about how if we fully embrace and do confess our sins and repent of them, that God is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

39:11

And so, I remind everyone of that. If that you truly did repent and you truly did confess, and you do believe this to be true, that you can come to the table fully cleansed with a clean conscience and a full heart, knowing that no one can earn their place at the table that is granted to them by the blood of Jesus Christ.

39:29

And yeah, I think using the table as a fear tactic to govern people's moral fortitude is dangerous.

39:39

I, as the preacher, I'm not even aware of my sin when

39:45

I come to the table, right? So, no, I think you're right. I've actually had conversations with congregants that I'm like, yes, you can take because they abstain from communion.

39:59

And I asked them why, and it's because of that. So, yeah, I'll be setting sins become that for a lot of people where they're like, man,

40:07

I struggle with the same sin. And I would say, well, Paul, I guess would never take to the table because he too had sins that he struggled with.

40:14

Yeah, I know for us in our context, I too fence the table every week and we practice what would be considered close communion, not closed to members only, but close, meaning baptized believers is how we'll phrase it.

40:28

And you don't have to be a member of our church though. And so one of the things that we are really clear to emphasize every week is that the table is not for the perfect, it's for the weak.

40:39

The table is for sinners and it's for repenting ones who understand that they're sinners and who know that what they need and who they need is

40:47

Christ. And so if you are a sinner, there is no better place for you to be than to run to the table and cast yourself upon the mercy of God in Christ, you know?

40:56

And so Charles, like you, I've had members who have come from really heavy -handed, pietistic backgrounds and will just be in tears about not taking the supper and like just convinced that they shouldn't because there's too much sin in their lives or whatever it may be.

41:10

And I just, I take great joy in being able to kind of put my arm, whether literally or figuratively, around that brother or sister and say, like, brother or sister, there is no better place for you to be than the table on a

41:22

Sunday morning because you clearly, clearly, you know, like I'll just ask them, you know, does your sin bother you?

41:29

Because it's obvious that it does. You're grieved by it, you know, and you don't want to sin and you delight in the law of God and your inner being, you know, and you want to obey

41:37

Him, but yet you can't, you know, the way that you want to and you know you've fallen short. It's like, well, if that's where you are, then come, you know, and receive

41:45

Christ in the bread and the wine, right? And, you know, by faith. So, yeah.

41:51

I think that's a, it's an interesting observation for sure for the type and anti -type. Good question, man. Thanks. I think we've got another one that I'm personally excited to answer.

42:03

Okay. Let me, let's see here, Jonathan. I'm ready to blow up straw men. Jonathan, go ahead and ask us your question, buddy.

42:14

All right. Well, I kind of have two questions now. Okay. So what about... Now, Jonathan, you can't do that.

42:20

You can't do that bait and switch thing. I was going to ask a question for Charles because you prompted me another question, but what about those who don't hold to the view of baptism, like Presbyterians, Anglicans, would you guys not welcome them to the table?

42:42

Um, just, and then the other one is the one from the podcast.

42:48

Jonathan, this is very, this is very sinister of you. You put a, you put a question up about, that was super fun about, you know, seeing

42:55

Jesus everywhere. And then you ask us about this. I'm kidding, brother. So in our, in our context, in our context,

43:03

I'll at least say what we do. We, I use the language verbatim or an elder, one of our elders uses the language verbatim.

43:09

You do not need to be a member of Covenant Baptist Church in order to partake of the supper with us today. We do ask that you be a baptized believer in the

43:15

Lord Jesus Christ, and that you not be under the disciplinary action of another gospel preaching church somewhere.

43:21

That's how we say it. So that, that we, we are intentionally ambiguous in the way that we fence the table so that our visiting friends who are

43:29

Paedo -Baptists can, it basically is up to their conscience and most all of them come to the table and we're happy for them to do that because in their own consciences, they understand that they have been baptized and that they're believers in the

43:42

Lord Jesus. Now, if they wanted to join our church, that would be a different conversation because then we would need to talk about baptism and what it is, what it isn't, how we administer it and the like, but we, we try in, in fencing the table the way we do to just leave it to the conscience of the individual attending.

43:58

John, what do you guys do? Yeah, no, same. For sure.

44:04

So I don't really have anything to add. Jonathan, is that, is that a reasonable answer to your question? It answers the question, at least from your, your perspective.

44:13

Yeah. And this is, again, you know, this, this, we're not necessarily a book study on church quality.

44:20

We can definitely do that. That's what I want to push forward. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's a good question and it's definitely something that, you know, it's worth thinking through.

44:30

But, you know, I'm, I am, I agree with Justin, there's, there's some sensitivity here and we try and be sensitive to that and so, but to your original question, which is basically, how do we answer the critique of finding

44:49

Jesus everywhere in the Old Testament? And so what guard, the question was, what guard, what guardrails or advice will you give so that we won't make the error where we find

45:00

Jesus everywhere? Where I actually do find Jesus everywhere, but not in the way in which they, the accusation doesn't necessarily fit because the way in which the accusation normally comes is that, oh, you find

45:11

Jesus under every rock and every rock becomes Jesus. That's actually not true. That's an old, go ahead.

45:19

No, I was going to say, we do not read the Bible like it's a where's Waldo book and Jesus is Waldo. We do not do that.

45:25

John, go ahead. So I would say, you know, those who normally throw this conclusion come from a dispensational background and they would say, well, we hold to a grammatical, historical understanding of scripture.

45:41

So we are going to just believe whatever the grammar and the context within the history tell us to believe.

45:49

And we would say wholeheartedly, amen. And so do we. To think that covenant theology is derived not from grammar and not from history,

46:02

I think is a misunderstanding. And I would say that every time that I understand the flow of scripture,

46:10

I'm always understanding it in its original context, to its original people, from the grammar, from the original language, within the context and what is the author's intention.

46:20

Now that's where the tricky question becomes because they would say, what is the author's intention, meaning

46:27

Moses? And I would agree. What is Moses trying to accomplish? But there's also another context that this is where we would disagree with those who reject this hermeneutic, is that there's also the greater context of the original writer, which is the

46:45

Holy Spirit, who moved Moses. There's another author, amen. Come on. That's right. There's one author who uses multiple writers, and I would say that we try and look at the

46:55

Bible with the one author's intention, and we do that by using the New Testament because the New Testament gives us the explanation of what

47:03

Moses, when he was writing in a mystery, he was writing things that were types and shadows, and in this chapter, when we talked about it earlier, when he talks about Christ and history and mystery, it is very important to understand that the

47:16

Old Testament is written mysteriously, giving us a reflection or a shadow of Christ, but not the full substance.

47:23

So once we see the full picture of Christ, then we can go back and understand the New Testament's interpretation of the old.

47:30

We're not reading Jesus into the text. We're using the Holy Spirit's interpretation in the

47:36

New Testament to do the same. So types and shadows, I would say the Passover, Egypt coming out of, or Israel coming out of Egypt, the serpent being raised up on a stick, the rock in the wilderness,

47:48

I mean, all of these, the New Testament is telling us to go look back and say, this is foreshadowing

47:54

Christ as a type. Would you say only the things in the New Testament specifically mention Jesus, or can you go beyond that as well?

48:02

No, I mean, so I'll jump in here, Jonathan, to somewhat answer. No, it does.

48:08

It entirely does. And so, I mean, my answer to that in short is no, we are not limited to only the things that the

48:14

New Testament writers say explicitly, though I agree with John that we want to take the explicit specific examples in the

48:23

New Testament and then use that kind of redemptive historical covenantal understanding that I think the apostles had, and then understand our

48:31

Old Testament's in light of the new. And so like Nehemiah Cox, this is quoted in the book. This is a wonderful quote.

48:37

Nehemiah Cox says that the best interpreter of the Old Testament is the Holy Spirit speaking to us in the new.

48:43

And so we actually read the entire Old Testament in light of the New Testament. And that is a responsible way to do exegesis, and that's a responsible hermeneutic, and we would contend that to not read your

48:55

Old Testament that way would be the irresponsible approach. But to answer your question more specifically,

49:01

I think that what we see in the New Testament from the apostles is a pattern and a framework with which they understand the

49:09

Old Testament and everything that came before Christ. We're also taking our cue from Jesus, right, where he makes very broad sweeping statements in John chapter five and Luke chapter 24 about how everything that Moses wrote about the

49:22

Psalms, the prophets, all of that was about him. You know, if you believe Moses, you would believe me because Moses wrote about me.

49:29

And so he's talking there about the Pentateuch, the first five books of Scripture, he revealed to the disciples on the

49:36

Emmaus road, beginning with the Psalms and the prophets, everything that was written about him. And so that's how we take our cue from Christ and the apostles in understanding the

49:45

Old Testament. And let me say this, a big thing that I always like to distinguish in this conversation when

49:52

I talk with folks about it is the charge and the accusation that's levied against guys like us is that, like you said,

49:58

Jonathan, in your question, like you're just trying to read Jesus into every page of Scripture. You're trying to find him between every line and under every rock and all that.

50:06

You're asking the question every time you pick up your Bible, where is Jesus in this text?

50:11

And I'm just like, no, that is not the question that we are asking. Where is Jesus in this text? The question we are asking is where does this text stand in relation to Christ?

50:21

And that distinction is massive. So where does this text stand in relation to Christ leads us to a

50:28

Christ -centered, so Christocentric, redemptive historical understanding of passages, and in interpreting the text that way, we're just interpreting it like Jesus understood it and like the apostles clearly understood it.

50:40

So that's my response. And that, I do think, frees us up, Jonathan, to be able to look back into the

50:47

Old Testament and ask that question, where does this stand in relation to Christ, and we can lean on the confessions and the history of interpretation and the rule of faith, where saints before us have clearly seen types and shadows and prefigurements of Christ all throughout the

51:02

Old Testament. And as long as we're staying within those bounds, between those ditches, I think we're okay. Yeah.

51:08

So Sam, in his book on page 22, I think he says something that's really helpful. He says, the mystery, this is a third paragraph, the mystery was not clearly perceived, and in most cases, it was misunderstood by the very recipients of its revelation, even after Christ's resurrection, the disciples asked

51:27

Jesus about the restoration of the kingdom to the Jews, even after Pentecost, Peter needed the vision of the clean and unclean animals to teach him to forget the

51:37

Jewish line of social division. So as you begin to read, you know, later on, he says, the books of Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, and Colossians are especially concerned with explaining what the true gospel is and how it naturally flows from the

51:52

Old Testament in light of questions from both Jesus and Gentiles. So what we're trying to argue is that the

51:59

Old Testament is unfolding this narrative, but it's unfolding it, and it's a glass dimly scene.

52:08

It's dark, it's dim, it's hard to see the full shape. And as the New Testament goes back and says, this is the explanation.

52:16

This is, I mean, literally when Paul says that Jesus is the rock by which Moses struck in the

52:21

Old Testament, he is making an interpretation, helping us understand that these things that were hidden and had their original meaning in the context, the children of Israel needed water.

52:34

And so God provided them water. Later on, we give a fuller explanation of that's a shadow of Christ becoming the living water, those who sustain his people.

52:44

He becomes the one that gives them the eternal water, not just the temporal water, and so I think we're on safe ground to say that when we look backwards from the

52:55

New Testament, we aren't reinterpreting those texts. We're bringing the full conclusion and meaning to the text that the

53:02

New Testament authors offered us. Absolutely. I mean, just to maybe give another example that may be helpful, that at least fires me up a little bit and makes me excited, is

53:12

Jesus in John chapter six, when he talks about being the bread that has come down from heaven.

53:18

So there are so many things, I mean, even if we want to just take into consideration the stuff that is explicitly mentioned in the

53:24

New Testament, there are so many different interpretations of the Old Testament in the

53:29

New that do this covenantal typological stuff, that it again just helps us feel free to go back and do this in a general sense in the

53:37

Old Testament, not to force it, but where it clearly comes up out of the text, it's fair game. So Jesus, again, is talking about being the bread that's come down from heaven, and he keeps referencing to a

53:46

Jewish audience, your fathers ate the bread that came down from heaven. They ate the manna in the wilderness, right?

53:51

But I am the true bread that comes down from heaven. So Jesus, in one sense, is saying, you guys remember the manna and how that happened, how after God miraculously delivered

54:02

Israel out of the bondage they were in in Egypt through the crossing of the Red Sea and everything else, and they were wandering around in the wilderness, you remember how they were sustained by God with this bread that came down from heaven?

54:13

Well, that ultimately was about me. I am the greater manna, and in that sense,

54:20

I am the bread that comes down from heaven to sustain you while you are sojourning in this land as you make your way to the city of God, the heavenly

54:28

Jerusalem that will come down. So that is an entirely legitimate interpretation of John 6 because Jesus is saying it, and there are all kinds of other themes we see in that chapter, union with Christ and the like, that have significance for the

54:41

Lord's table, which is something that we were thinking about earlier. So even there, you see

54:47

God start to make all these connections through scripture, and it's really exciting because in thinking about not only the

54:53

Passover, but even thinking about the provision of bread from heaven and thinking about Christ and how he fulfills all these things, how he institutes the

54:59

Lord's Supper in fulfillment of the Passover meal, how he is the Passover lamb, all of this great stuff, and how it's all about union with him becomes just all kinds of mega -encouraging for people as they think about what's happening in the

55:12

Lord's table, and all of that is a result of covenant theology and redemptive historical theology and typology.

55:20

Anyway, that was me nerding out for a minute. Thank you guys for putting up with me. Jon Moffitt That is a subject, Jonathan, that we could go on and on and on about, but that's a great question, man.

55:28

I appreciate it. Justin Perdue But we have, I think, great freedom within the clear bounds of scripture and in the history of orthodoxy to do this, and the

55:38

New Testament examples are just, there are plenty of them that can instruct us in how to interpret the old.

55:44

Yeah. Jon Moffitt Absolutely. Good question. Cool. Cody had another question that came in.

55:52

He asked, what was the first covenant theology book you read that helped you come to a covenantal perspective?

56:00

Well, two for me, maybe even three. I would say

56:05

Voss was the first complicated book I read from a biblical theology standpoint that started me down the road for covenant theology.

56:15

I would probably say Sacred Bond became the one that kind of dropped the most helpful language.

56:22

I had digested a lot of information from various places, but that's the one

56:29

I think. I ended up recommending the most that I remember, but I would say, yeah,

56:34

Sacred Bomb, did someone say Sacred Bomb? No. Sacred Bond, like James Bond.

56:42

Sacred Bond. It's still a really great book. Not to be confused with Gospel Bombs, apparently.

56:48

Gospel Bombs. That's right. Gospel Bombs. Good question. Good question. I mean, for me, this is maybe not an exciting answer, but when

56:58

I encountered Calvinism back when that happened in my early 20s, for me, covenant theology just came with it because I was reading, and I mean, this is a shout out to our

57:13

Presbyterian brothers on the call here. I mean, I was reading Calvin in the Institutes. I was reading

57:19

Warfield and guys like that. For me, pretty quickly, it was like, okay,

57:26

Calvinism and covenant theology come together, and then I just began investigating the various traditions a little bit more over time and read a number of books and essays and stuff that have been helpful, but Calvin, and in particular

57:40

Calvin, started me down this road, even in some of the things he writes in the Institutes. All right.

57:48

Luke has a question. And then Cody's thinking, Justin, what in the world happened to you in the year 1689?

57:54

That's right. Number one question at Theocast, how can you guys not be Presbyterian? Because we are contrarian by nature.

58:03

That's another Zoom call for another day. That's right. That's right. All right. Luke has a question.

58:10

He says, what are your thoughts on balancing systematic theology and biblical theology in our teaching and preaching? What would an imbalance look like?

58:28

Well, I can answer that for you. The, I think you have to understand what the goal of preaching and teaching is designed for.

58:40

Teaching, I'm going to get a little bit more technical and it is, teaching in my experience has been more interactive, very much what we're doing here.

58:51

I'm trying to make sure that I'm impressing the truth upon your heart so that you appropriately apply it. And it is designed very much in a studious way where it's take and give.

59:02

Preaching is a different, and there's a lot of opinions on preaching, but, you know, Paul talks about the design is to persuade men and I think that the goal for me when

59:13

I am expounding God's word in a sermon, the goal ultimately is to lead people to faith in Christ in greater and greater means, right?

59:25

So we believe the means of grace, which is the preached word, is designed to strengthen our faith.

59:31

So, if I'm, and I'll, you know, I'll just be honest here. There are a lot of sermons that are just lectures and there are a lot of sermons that are just study notes.

59:41

They're just exegesis. You should never bring your exegesis into the pulpit because that's not the purpose of preaching.

59:50

The purpose of preaching is to lead people to trust Christ, to faith and trust in the finished work of Christ and in the sovereignty of God and His capacity to fulfill

01:00:00

His promises. So, you know, I will tell you, I did, I very much did systematic and biblical theology this last

01:00:09

Sunday in my sermon that I just posted today. I'm preaching John 18 and in John, he starts with talking about how

01:00:18

Jesus meets in front of Annas and then it's just the trials, and if you don't understand biblical theology, you won't understand the purpose of the trials.

01:00:28

Trials just sound like history rigmarole, like, all right, get us to the cross, the trials are kind of useless.

01:00:34

Actually, the trials are full of faith exploding hope, but if you don't understand it from a systematic slash biblical theology, so I did a very small section in my sermon explaining biblical and systematic theology so that I could get to the point of John.

01:00:51

So I think if it bolsters your explanation of the gospel and it's being used as a tool and it's not the entire sermon,

01:01:00

I think that they can be tremendously helpful, but don't make it the entire sermons. That would be my point.

01:01:06

So some thoughts for me on this would be, and I'll particularly focus on preaching because I think that's what we're really talking about here is the proclamation of the word.

01:01:15

And so I think that obviously biblical and systematic theology are useful but I think what

01:01:21

I always want to do, I'm with John, I mean, the main point of scripture is God's plan of redemption accomplished through Christ, right?

01:01:29

And it is that Christ has done everything that we need and we are to receive that by faith in him and so I want that to be crystal clear in every sermon.

01:01:38

Like the idea of preaching a sermon where the main point of the whole Bible isn't clear just doesn't make sense to me as a preacher of the gospel.

01:01:47

But then in thinking about that, so what I want to do is I want to show people in the text where my opinions come from.

01:01:54

So I want to deal with the words that are on the page. And then what I want to do is help people understand where my conclusions have come from, not only in that text, but also in light of the grand story of scripture and where we are.

01:02:09

So where does this text stand in relation to Christ kind of becomes clear, I trust in the sermons that I preach, though I don't ask it that way in preaching.

01:02:17

And then systematic theology in my mind is very useful in that we have like confessions of faith and systematic doctrine that has been laid out through the history of the church that we understand to represent orthodoxy and a confessional heritage.

01:02:31

And so those kind of keep us between the ditches and keep us from doing crazy things with the passage and coming up with some new wacko interpretation because it might not square with the systematic theological history of the church.

01:02:43

And so for me, as I think about systematics and doctrine, that's what

01:02:50

I think that's useful for. Like you've heard this said before, I'm sure, that the main things in scripture are the plain things and the plain things are the main things.

01:02:59

Well, that's again, systematic theology. Those truth claims, those doctrinal statements of what's clear and plain in scripture are going to guide and guard me from going all kinds of crazy places.

01:03:09

So I think my systematic theology is going to come out in that I'm going to be preaching doctrine and I'm not going to go crazy with making doctrinal statements that have never been said before.

01:03:20

My biblical theology is going to come out because it's going to be clear that I'm interpreting this passage in light of the whole and where it stands in relation to Christ.

01:03:29

And I'm preaching the text in that I'm showing people from that passage where my opinions come from and I'm preaching the whole thing with Christ as the point and faith in him as the primary takeaway.

01:03:41

And then there are other, like I just recently preached a series in Proverbs. I mean, you can go listen to it. People that charge, this is just like for free add on throw in on the back end of this, like the people that charge guys like me and John or guys like maybe some of you on this call and saying that we never tell people or say anything about how we're supposed to live is just absolutely bananas because when it's in the text, we preach it when the law is good, when it's used lawfully.

01:04:07

So in its first, second, and third use, man, I'm all for preaching law and helping people see that what

01:04:14

God has revealed is good for them and what he said is evil will destroy their lives and that we want to see our lives conform to what

01:04:20

God has revealed in his word by the power of the spirit as we trust Christ. So that's in my mind too, in terms of right uses of law and gospel and all kinds of this is in my brain as I'm prepping sermons and then what

01:04:33

I want to do, like John said, I don't want to show any of that stuff in my sermon. I want that to undergird the sermon and be the structure that holds it up so that then the gospel and the text can just shine.

01:04:46

That's sort of my goal. I would say to that point, Justin, no, that's good. On pages 20, he does talk about how law gospel distinction is going to structure your covenantal understanding and those who reject the law gospel distinction, it will affect your understanding of the

01:05:04

Old Testament. It'll affect your understanding of covenant theology, biblical theology, and of course, we've already seen, which is kind of why theocast exists, it affects the way in which you preach your sermons.

01:05:17

You end up becoming a pietist. If you don't understand a law gospel distinction, you merge the two together, and in so doing, you erode people's assurance.

01:05:27

In my opinion, I think the stronger you can understand the biblical structure of covenant theology, this covenant of grace, covenant of works, and how it unfolds and how it really becomes what's driving the text, will strengthen not only your preaching, it'll help your counseling, a lot comes into place, and you don't abuse the

01:05:51

Bible where you're trying to find, let me put it this way, you don't become a proof text pastor, and we do this.

01:05:58

We go into verses to prove that we need to get people to act a certain way, and then we use proof texts to say, see, right here, the

01:06:07

Bible says that, and we don't even understand how the New Testament has used those passages. We don't understand the context that the original passages are used in, and we abuse and misuse them.

01:06:16

So, what Sam is offering here, and I think is helpful, is not new.

01:06:23

This isn't, I would say, majority of what's being said here can be embraced by all covenant theologians, no matter what their confession, that we are going to embrace this narrative that there might be some slight differences between Presbyterian and Baptist, but the undergirding of Christ being the point of the

01:06:43

Old Testament, and that covenants point us to Christ, is important, and I think it's the structure of our preaching in the

01:06:52

Bible. So, well, JP, we've got about a little bit of time left here, and guys, we're going to close it down, but as we move that direction, if you have a question or a comment, please raise your hand or throw it in the

01:07:04

Q &A, and we will definitely grab it, but I think just kind of one, getting us as we close this down and realizing that what we're going to be getting into in our next section, which is the covenant of works and the

01:07:17

Noahic covenant, those are pretty two big subjects, and I will say that the covenant of works is going to affect the way in which you understand the

01:07:27

Old Testament, understand preaching. I mean, there's so much that's wrapped up in there. And a denial of the covenant of works is going to tremendously affect how you understand the work of Christ.

01:07:37

That's right. I mean, that perhaps as much as anything in evangelicalism,

01:07:43

I mean, you just see the bad fruit of a denial of the covenantal framework, because many of the

01:07:49

Calvinistic evangelicals out there deny a covenant of works and the covenantal framework in general thereby.

01:07:56

But in denying that covenant of works, they tend to try to slip works back in some way or somehow.

01:08:02

What's even more confusing is when confessional reform type guys do that, but we'll leave that maybe for another time.

01:08:10

Yeah, we'll get into that for next week, for sure. So, let's conclude here.

01:08:15

And by next week, I hope you mean next month, John. Sorry, next month. Yeah. You know how it is. In my mind, it's next week.

01:08:23

But yes, next month. So, you guys will have some time to come with some questions or thoughts or add some thoughts.

01:08:32

As we get ready to close this down, my encouragement to you is that when you are reading, so,

01:08:41

I'll give you an example here in John 18, I'm preaching

01:08:47

John 18, and John is making reference to the people by which

01:08:54

Jesus is going to stand before, and if you don't understand typology and you don't understand how

01:09:02

Christ is fulfilling something, a good example of covenant theology slash type and anti -type, in the

01:09:10

Old Testament, you have multiple types that are pointing you to why Jesus must be killed on a cross in our place, because there is this theme that happens throughout the

01:09:23

Old Testament in these types and anti -types, and it is curse. There's the theme of a tree, and there's also a theme of a curse.

01:09:29

So, Adam and Eve have a curse put upon them because they ate of the fruit, and the people of Israel will be cursed if they don't sacrifice the lamb and paint the door, the blood above the door.

01:09:42

The children of Israel are complaining, and they're cursed, and God sends fiery serpents to bite them, and Moses is then told to put the curse, which is the serpent, up on a pole, and everyone who looks to the pole, if they've been bitten, they will live.

01:09:56

So, those are just a couple of examples here. You have the New Testament pointing back and using those as an example of saying,

01:10:05

Galatians 3, he became a curse in our place, right? Because it is written that cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree, citing

01:10:15

Deuteronomy. That's right, exactly. Yeah, I mean, it's just like - Jesus, exactly. So, Paul is making the connection that the serpent on the tree and the blood above the door and all of these illustrations of a curse and a tree, and even in Acts 2 and in Acts 5,

01:10:32

Peter references that as a tree. He goes, you crucified him on a tree. He makes the reference that these symbols are constantly being used.

01:10:40

So, Jesus has to meet in front of certain people and go through this system because he can't just be stoned.

01:10:46

To become the curse in our place, as Deuteronomy says in chapter 21, he has to end up being crucified and put on a tree.

01:10:55

And John 18 is showing you God sovereignly moved and manipulated this so that Jesus would end up on a tree.

01:11:01

It was, as Peter says later on in chapter 2, that it was foreordained that Jesus would be on the tree.

01:11:08

Understanding typology and understanding covenant theology will not only help you understand the Bible, it'll help you make your preaching applicable to people where the gospel, you don't have to say the same thing every

01:11:21

Sunday. You can say nothing the same every Sunday and expound the gospel for people each and every week.

01:11:27

So, my encouragement to you is that the more you can understand covenant theology and typology, the preaching is going to be better for your people because their

01:11:37

Bible will come alive. They will see Moses in ways. They will see stories of the Old Testament that they really never understood before.

01:11:44

Light bulbs will go off all over the place and connections will be made. That's why I recoil a little bit when people say that if you preach from a redemptive historical covenantal perspective, you just say the same thing all the time.

01:11:57

I'm like, that is just so ridiculous on the face of it. No, we preach different passages and we're making these connections.

01:12:06

What does it do? It evokes the praise of the saints because we see God working before the world began to accomplish our redemption.

01:12:16

Holy smokes, we're not worthy of this. Christ did all of this stuff for us when he didn't have to do anything.

01:12:24

I'm starting a sermon series in Ephesians this coming Sunday. Pretty exciting. Good book.

01:12:30

Covenantal framework. How is that going to affect the first three sermons, for example, that I'm going to preach in Ephesians 1 to 14?

01:12:37

Well, Ephesians 1, 3 to 14 is the covenant of redemption, full stop. If you're watching the movie and Genesis 1 is scene one,

01:12:47

Ephesians 1 is the flashback that makes sense of the entire movie. It helps you put all the pieces together because you're like, oh my gosh,

01:12:54

God, before the world began, chose us in Christ and all of these kinds of things and predestined us in love for adoption and all of this.

01:13:02

Christ accomplished our redemption and the Spirit applied it. Wow, this plan of redemption and our salvation has roots that go back into eternity.

01:13:12

That's the covenant of redemption. Not that you guys do, but if people are just like, well, you're just going to be boring.

01:13:18

You're going to say the same thing every Sunday and people are going to tune you out. I'm like, I think we're reading a different Bible and making different observations and connections there because this stuff is anything but dull.

01:13:31

Anyway, I think it's great. It's very comforting as a preacher. You don't go to the text every week thinking, oh my gosh, what am

01:13:38

I going to say? You go to the text with these kind of tools in your backpack, some of the things we've been talking about tonight, and sermon prep becomes – not that it will always be happy or easy, but it becomes something that's edifying and it becomes something where you're eager to not just go tell people what to do on Sunday or yell at them, but to encourage them in Christ and how great is this salvation that we have in Jesus and trust

01:14:04

Him. It's just a few thoughts as a preacher. Tim Draper Yeah, one final thought

01:14:10

I have, and if there's no other questions, then we can kind of close it down. I know some of you, some of these guys are up at three in the morning.

01:14:17

There are four in the morning where they're at. Fabio, I'm glad you made it. I hope you're awake. Probably got a couple of coffees in you right now.

01:14:24

We've got guys from all over the world right now in here. We've got a couple of guys from India and a couple of guys from the

01:14:30

Philippines. I can see your names in here, so it's good. Glad you're welcome that you're here. Tim Draper You're welcome. Fabio Pitino California.

01:14:36

Tim Draper It's awesome. Fabio Pitino Californians are like, what? It's time for dinner. What are you talking about? Tim Draper And I'm on the

01:14:41

East Coast, and I'm just getting tired. Fabio Pitino That's right. Same here. Tim Draper Here I am. Fabio Pitino But my conclusion to all of this is that when you understand this perspective of covenant theology, and I would say whether you're a

01:14:57

Presbyterian or a Baptist, this application does not matter. I would say that the majority of Presbyterians that I love and listen to,

01:15:05

I mean, Sinclair Ferguson is one of my favorite guys to listen to, and probably if I listen to a sermon, he's the only one

01:15:11

I listen to. There you go. There's one that's in Melbourne.

01:15:19

What it unfolds for you is, let me put it this way.

01:15:26

If you don't understand the flow of redemption, you have a very small section of your

01:15:33

Bible that you can preach, and you end up preaching moralistic sermons that are about human improvement.

01:15:40

That's what they're about. When the comfort that is offered to the believer that you know for a fact that you can be right before God, that you can have assurance that God is going to redeem you and save you, is based upon your faith, sola fide, what the

01:15:58

Reformation restored, right? We are saved not by works, not by what we do, but by our faith in God.

01:16:06

The Bible becomes a book about encouraging the believer in their faith, and covenant theology becomes an arsenal that you will just absolutely never run out of in this lifetime.

01:16:18

You just won't be able to run out of the connections back and forth from the glorious unfolding of the story, the accomplishment of the story, and the hope of eternal life.

01:16:29

That would be my final thought and encouragement to really dive into this. Justin Perdue You're reading that same question that Lynn put up there.

01:16:37

I haven't got a chance to read it then. Justin Perdue Is this the one on recommendations on reading? I think that the coming chapters will be clarifying and helpful.

01:16:50

Some of the stuff that I might recommend, I'm just trying to think of things that are accessible. I do think

01:16:55

Voss and biblical theology is a classic work for a reason. Especially for pastor type guys or guys that study for the ministry,

01:17:06

Biblical Theology by Gerhardus Voss needs to be a staple.

01:17:12

Maybe to a lesser degree, I think there is some valuable stuff to be gleaned from some of Graham Goldsworthy's stuff, and it's very readable.

01:17:22

I think some of his stuff is really good. I'm just looking at my shelf and thinking about things.

01:17:33

If you find good systematic theologies by good Reformed guys, they're going to deal with typology in a way that's helpful.

01:17:42

Bob Inc. is important. There are guys like Burkoff that do. Justin Perdue I would say a little helpful book that I've read through recently is this one called

01:17:52

Covenant Theology, A Baptist Distinctive. It's edited by Blackburn. It's a simplified version.

01:18:00

I would definitely say simpler than Sam's book. No offense to Sam, great book. This would be more of an introductory.

01:18:09

Another great book edited by Richard Barcellos. Again, if you're wanting it from a

01:18:15

Baptist perspective, it's called

01:18:20

Recovering a Covenantal Heritage, Essays in Baptist Covenant Theology. It actually has some great articles in here.

01:18:28

This is more of a written. Justin Perdue Of that book, I'm looking at it too. That book, I would say that chapter two and three will give you really good summaries.

01:18:41

Chapter two is going to give you an idea of Baptistic covenant theology in the First and Second London Confession.

01:18:46

Chapter three is basically an abridged version of a dissertation that a man named Pascal Donal wrote called

01:18:53

The Distinctiveness of Covenant Baptist Theology or Baptistic Covenant Theology. This chapter three of this book would be an excellent summary of a

01:19:02

Baptistic position on covenant theology that's going to deal with typology as well. I just wanted to jump in there,

01:19:07

John. Yeah, for sure. I think there's an updated version of that as well that you can get.

01:19:28

There are some extra notes on that. A book that probably transformed my perspective on biblical theology the most,

01:19:35

I don't recommend everything he writes in here. He gets a little bit into transformationalism, but I will say the first few chapters of this book, far as the curse is found, for those of you that are watching,

01:19:46

I'll just have to read it to you. The Covenant Story of Redemption by Michael Williams. The first opening few chapters in here is what really helped me shape my understanding of Genesis being the prologue to Exodus.

01:20:03

It changes the way in which you start to think about the Bible. If you can find it for cheap,

01:20:10

I recommend having it. It's one that I really enjoyed. I had a lot of good notes in there.

01:20:17

If you're going to buy two, if you're on a pastor's budget like me, those two books are probably going to be...

01:20:28

Now, if you want to really nerd out, and I'm talking really nerd, give me a second here.

01:20:39

This is Sam's other book, From Shadow to Substance, The Federal Theology of the English Particular Baptist.

01:20:45

He's going to give you the theology and the history behind it as it comes from the Baptist. Great book, but it's a dense read.

01:20:55

That's if you really want to nerd out. If you're only going to buy one, I'm guessing maybe The Barcellus would probably be the best one to buy.

01:21:03

There you go. Man, it was a great discussion. Hopefully, I think the next few chapters will bring some more questions and dialogue, so bring them.

01:21:12

Feel free to send them in early. I know that a couple of you guys did that. Some of you on here know a lot, and I want to use you guys going forward.

01:21:22

Hopefully, we'll be able to... I'm going to message you and say, hey, get on here and offer some wisdom in this conversation.

01:21:29

All right, gentlemen, that's all we have. If we don't have any parting questions, we're going to go ahead and end it there.

01:21:38

Cool. All right, well, we will see you guys in about a month. We'll see you over in the