The Apologetics Legacy of Walter Martin: A Conversation with his Daughter

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All right, welcome back to another episode of Revealed Apologetics. I'm your host, Eli Ayala. And I say this at the beginning of every show, every time

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I have a guest, I'm super, super excited. And today, I really mean it, as I meant it back in the day as well, but I really mean it specifically because it is my great pleasure to be interviewing the daughter of a great

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Christian apologist, a great Christian man, Dr. Walter Martin. We're going to be having his daughter, Cindy Martin Morgan on today to talk about the legacy of her father.

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If you do not know who Dr. Walter Martin is and you're into apologetics, perhaps you have been living under a rock.

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I mean, he passed away in the late eighties, but his impact has really influenced a lot of people as he is considered the father of cult apologetics.

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And so if you're doing apologetics ministry and evangelism ministry with Mormons, Jehovah's Witness, it's probably the case that you have come across his work as he is the author of the classic book,

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The Kingdom of the Cults. And so he definitely is very impactful in that specific area of ministry.

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Just real quick before I do formally introduce our guest, who by the way, wrote a magnificent book entitled

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The Bible Answer Man, Walter Martin and Hank Hanegraaff, Dr. Martin's Daughter's Reflections on CRI's Founder, Its History and Its Current President.

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I just finished reading it the other day and it was absolutely awesome. Very awesome, touching, personal stories.

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You get to see an awesome personal side to Dr. Martin as well as his impact and influence and as many connections and relationships with some interesting people along the way.

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So I highly recommend you guys check that book out. You can download it on Kindle, that's how I got it.

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You can download it on Amazon and I highly recommend that you guys do that.

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But real quick, before I introduce Cindy here and kind of invite her onto the screen with me,

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I have to say, I remember very distinctly my first time ever listening to Dr.

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Walter Martin. Of course, he passed away, I believe in 89 and I did not get into apologetics until after high school.

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Graduated many, many years ago, 2001. And I remember before I got married,

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I had an argument with my parents and I actually left my house and I spent the night at my future mother -in -law's.

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She put the sofa couch out for me. And in my frustration, I'm like, I'm gonna listen to something. And I happened to find the audio of a debate with Walter Martin and I think his name was

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Van Hale or something like that. He was a Mormon apologist. And I stood up all night listening to this man,

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Walter Martin, who I've never heard of before, refute Mormonism in such a powerful and convincing way.

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I actually felt uncomfortable for the Mormon gentleman. He did it graciously and respectfully, but this man's knowledge of both the

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Bible and Mormonism was expansive and it definitely came across in that debate.

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And that drew me to explore who is this guy? And apparently, at the time I listened to that audio, he had passed away, but apparently

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I learned that he was not just Walter Martin, he was the original Bible Answer Man.

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And so that was super exciting and that kind of was my gateway drug, so to speak, into the work of Dr.

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Walter Martin. And he's impacted my thinking in many ways since then. So without further ado, I'd like to invite

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Cindy Martin Morgan, the daughter of the late Dr. Walter Martin on with us here.

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And how's it going, Cindy? I'm doing fine, thank you. Thanks for having me, Eli. Well, thank you for coming on.

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I mean, as we expressed on the phone before, you have no idea who I am. I can't imagine why you don't know who

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I am. That's okay. But you, I'm sorry? I'm sorry.

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That's okay. If you don't know who I am, that's perfectly fine. Not a lot of people do. But I was very grateful of the fact that even you didn't know who

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I was or anything about my ministry, you were gracious enough to agree to come on. And so for that, I'm very grateful.

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Thank you. Well, thank you for having me. So why don't you take a few moments? I kind of gave an introduction about your dad and who you are, but is there anything you'd like to say to the folks before we get started with kind of our kind of line of questioning here today?

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Well, I'm just happy to be here. I'm always happy to share stories about my dad and share what

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I did in his life. I'm so excited about the fact that as Christians, the work that the

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Lord does through each of his children lives on forever, even after we're home in the house of God. And that has been demonstrated to me over and over and over again in regards to my father's life.

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I've had so many people, just countless people come to me and tell me how his ministry touched his life and blessed them and or how

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God used him to draw them to Jesus Christ or draw them out of a cult or whatever it might be, how

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God used them. And it's such a privilege to be used by the living God. And I'm so thankful to have had a father that loved

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Jesus Christ and led me to Jesus Christ and helped others to know the real

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Jesus. Yeah, what I very much appreciate about your father is that he, in everything that he did, whether it was on the radio or he's speaking, he's all,

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I mean, he's just filled and saturated with the scriptures. I mean, the Bible Answer Man is an appropriate name for your father.

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And just listening to him makes the listener want to study the scriptures more.

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Did you find that in your relationship with him, just talking with him, it made you just want to go deeper into the scriptures?

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I really felt that with him as a kid. He was always filling our heads full of the gospel and demonstrating it with his life and all of the rest, of course.

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But as I grew older, especially, I felt that. He really had a fire for Jesus Christ. He was just really on fire for Christ.

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And I'm just thankful to have been caught up in his excitement for the

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Lord. So it was really, really something to see. And I'm thankful that I was there to see it.

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Yeah. Well, you had expressed to me just a little bit earlier that your father loved the

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Lord for a very long time. So he was a believer for a very long time. Of course, you were raised in a Christian home.

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So let's move forward to kind of more of the emphasis of what got him into apologetics specifically.

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Because when we're born again, we're not, some people, I guess, suppose are drawn to the field of apologetics, but some people kind of stumble into it, right?

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As they kind of experience objections and things like that. I'm sorry?

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It appears that way, doesn't it? They stumble into it. That's right, that's right. But how did your father get into apologetics in general?

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And then maybe we can talk a little bit about his specific area of expertise. Well, my impression always was just his heart for the lost.

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He also had a passion for truth. He wanted to, of course, teach others how to come to Jesus Christ, but he also wanted to teach people how to defend their faith and he also wanted to help people.

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He realized early on that people were embracing cults and it really disturbed him so deeply.

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He really had a heart cry for those who were deceived by, for example, Mormonism not being the true

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Jesus, that cult having all the terminology and yet it wasn't Christianity and Mormons believing they can be,

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Mormon men, if they're good enough, can be the God of their own planet and procreate throughout eternity.

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And Jesus to them is the spirit brother of Lucifer. So not the

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Jesus that we know from the Bible. And so that really troubled my father. He really wanted people to be set free, set free by the truth of the living word of God.

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And he really wanted to hold it out to them and he really wanted to teach the church, which they didn't have a way to address these cults in the church in my father's day.

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They weren't addressing them. And so my father saw that need. God gave him that discernment to see the need for the church itself to come alive in this particular area and start to teach the body how to defend the faith once for all delivered unto the saints and how to help people that were blinded by cults, by the cults and give them the tools, hold together the tools for them to be able to bring that about for the kingdom of God, so.

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Yeah, there are two things that stand out to me in your response there is, of course, being a young man myself and kind of a very energetic kind of guy,

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I do enjoy a good argument. You have to admit, after you kind of stretch your theological muscles and you're kind of done, you're like, that was fun, you know?

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And that's part of the temptation there is to do it for the sake of fun and not doing it just for the sake of truth and out of a genuine love for the lost.

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But what I noticed in your response there as to why your father got into apologetics, it was his genuine love for people who didn't know

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Jesus. And I think that's something very important, especially my listeners that are maybe my own age or younger getting into apologetics.

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If you're doing apologetics for the purpose of simply winning arguments with no care in your heart for the people that you're speaking with, you are doing apologetics unbiblically.

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So I 1 Peter tells us to set apart Christ as Lord in our hearts, always being ready to give a reason for the hope that's within us yet doing so with gentleness and respect.

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And then of course the Bible teaches with love. And so I'm very happy that you answered that way because I think that's a good reminder for a lot of folks who are in apologetics.

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It's more than just, you know, gaining knowledge, but it's actually sharing that knowledge with a genuine love and concern for the lost.

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So very much appreciate that. Now, the second part that stood out to me was you kind of shifted into my next question is how do you get involved with the cults?

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And I think it's very important to recognize, and I'm sure you would agree here, is that, you know, when we do apologetics, maybe this is your experience too, people typically think atheists.

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Now I have to talk to the atheists, but as much as the atheist is a concern and we need to deal with that, the cults are vastly more, you know, popular and the more people adhering to them.

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Do you think it was something of your dad, perhaps an insight to tap into that highly populated segment of society, instead of just focusing on something of like atheism, he saw that there was a much wider mission field here.

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And so was that something that played into his desire to kind of focus on that aspect of apologetic study?

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Absolutely. I really think he wanted to clear away the cobwebs. I think he really wanted to shine the light on the truth of the gospel and contrast it against the deception of the cults and false teaching.

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And he, for example, when he was in college, on his lunch hour, he would go and stand out on the corner of certain streets and be a little bit of a street evangelist.

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He didn't scream at people, nothing like that, but he would answer questions. He would go out and he would ask people, people passing by, do you have a question for me about the

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Bible? Do you have a question for me about Jesus? And then he would engage with them.

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And so his love and his burning desire to see people come to Jesus Christ really propelled him forward, even in areas that are uncomfortable.

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Not all of us have, it's not all of our, excuse me, our comfort zone.

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He stepped out of his comfort zone and he was willing to do what not everyone would be willing to do for the sake of the gospel.

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So I really admired that about him. When you say stepped out of his comfort zone, what do you mean? Are you referring to something of just like having to speak out truth and being in a sense, in a confrontational context, or stepping out of his comfort zone in studying areas that perhaps -

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I think stepping out on corners and being a little bit of a street evangelist is really out of most people's comfort zones.

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So I think he was willing to step out of his comfort zone in that regard. I think he was also willing to step out of his comfort zone for Jesus Christ in the sense that, that he used to always say, we're not here to be popular.

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So he got shot down a lot and you get rejected a lot, when you're trying to share the truth of the gospel, when you're trying to share a truth in general, you can get shot down a lot.

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And my father didn't let that sway him because like I said, he would tell people, look, you're not here to be popular.

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If you get popularity of the world, while you're serving Jesus Christ, well, good for you. But the goal is to serve

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Jesus Christ, to do it in love, to do it faithfully, to step out of your comfort zones, because realize that people are going to hell and the time is short and we need to step out with the word of God and pray that he'll reel them in through us, by the power of God.

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Yeah, that's awesome. Now, what I really appreciated about your book is that I got to see a side of your father that most people don't see, unless they read a book like that, especially from someone who is your dad.

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So you definitely see, we can see these kind of public figures and from afar and we kind of asked the question,

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I wonder what it was like living with someone like that. Like I do apologetics, I teach high school, middle school,

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I'm a speaker, I do these sorts of things. And people come to me with all sorts of questions, but then when they meet my wife, sometimes, how is it living with Eli?

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Sometimes the story is not, when she is - You have to be really nice to her. Yes, I'll be very nice.

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Sometimes the myth that surrounds me diminishes when reality strikes.

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But let me ask you, what was it like? Maybe you can share for people who haven't read your book, but I strongly encourage people to do so.

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What was it like growing up with the Bible Answer Man as your dad? Well, it was really a lot of fun.

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I can tell you he had a fantastic sense of humor. He was always making us laugh.

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He taught us to kind of laugh at each other too, which was really good. He laughed at himself.

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He was very self -deprecating and his humor. And so I loved that about him, that he could laugh easily and just have fun with us.

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We had something called Daddy's Day. And he traveled quite a bit for ministry. And yet on the weeks he was home, there was what we call

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Daddy's Day, which was Saturday. And we would go for rides in the car and he would sing songs.

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He'd insert our names into the songs and they were silly songs or sweet songs. And he would do that and it was so precious.

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And we'd go bowling, we would grab some lunch, we'd go shopping. But he always would put us front and center and draw us out.

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And we just had the best times. They were so great that I remember thinking, I don't even wanna spend the night at friends' houses because I just love being with my dad.

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I just thought he was my best friend. I just, I loved being with my dad.

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And he just, he really not only taught us the word of God and interspersed that throughout our lives, but we really had fun together.

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And he was just a funny guy. I think one of the real funny stories, this happened later when

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I married my husband, Rick. Rick was so awed by the Bible Answer Man, Walter Martin.

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And he was just kind of intimidated by that a bit. And yet Rick has such a brilliant mind of his own and really has studied out theology and church history and all that stuff.

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But even so, he just felt like, oh, he felt a little tongue tied sometimes around my dad when it came to talking about the word of God.

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But I wanted them to talk and I wanted to hear them debate. And I sort of set Rick up, where I...

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We... That's terrible. I know. That's so terrible. I want you to talk to my dad for a couple of minutes.

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One time we picked up my, and he still loves me. One time we picked up my dad from the airport and I jumped in the back seat and let my dad sit in the front as usual when we did something like that.

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And they get all settled and the car starts and everything, we get going. And then I ask my dad,

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I said, Rick really is wondering about, he wants to know about, he really wants to discuss this with me. Oh, the sovereignty of God or something they didn't agree on because my dad wasn't a

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Calvinist. Rick was a Calvinist. I wasn't a Calvinist at the time. And so I kind of wanted to hear the debate and see who would win.

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And I knew Rick was ready to do me in. But it was a fun time.

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That is hilarious. They did it so respectfully and loving. And Rick did a good, he did a really good job.

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And there was another funny story too where Rick actually called the Bible Answer Program. We didn't tell my dad that he was calling in ahead.

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My dad recognized his voice right away. And so Rick starts asking him these questions and my father just, it was just so funny because you can tell by his answers, he knows it's

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Rick. But he doesn't say anything about it. But he gets - He's in the back seat, Rick, come on. He's thinking of his son -in -law, and his daughter in the back seat, egging them on.

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And they had a great exchange on the Bible Answer Program, kind of anonymously too, in terms of viewers knowing anything.

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Sure. But I love to hear them talk back and forth. And my dad just, my dad had such a sense of humor.

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In fact, when Rick would drive him sometimes to his Bible class, I shouldn't be saying this, but I said it in the book because I just think it's part and parcel to being a human being.

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But my father was always late to everything. In fact, he said, he often said he was going to have his casket delivered late to his funeral.

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He was always late and you kind of want it to be consistent. But I remember him saying to Rick, just hurry.

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If you get a ticket, I'll pay it. And I'm sure they both repented. I'm sure they both did. But we had so much fun with him.

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I'm learning from him and just having that closeness and the laughter and just everything that we had with him, the godly guidance and just all of it.

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We could disagree. We could disagree and talk to him about certain things and he'd love us and it would be okay.

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It would be okay to disagree. I always knew my father loved me and nothing would ever change that. And he just had a gracious heart toward people and towards children.

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That's funny because he's kind of learning a little bit about... Yeah, see, with the whole

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Calvinism debates, that's so funny because when someone wants to debate something, it's either that or eschatology that comes up, right?

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And I love the way you framed it up. Rick was wondering, you know. You set him up for that.

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That's so funny. Well, one of the things what I enjoyed about your father and the reason why

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I enjoyed listening to him and I still enjoy, I don't know who puts up the podcast. There's a podcast that I'm subscribed to that has a lot of your father's audio teachings.

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But the reason why I like to listen to him is not just for the theological aspects and the biblical aspects, but he's just fun to listen to.

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I mean, his humor comes across in his lectures, in his Bible studies and he's able to click on and off this very funny person, but at the same time, at very strategic points, shoots that truth straight home in a way that kind of just locks in your mind.

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And I think that's one of the characteristics of a really good and effective teacher. So I very much appreciated that about him.

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I did too. And you know, he was the kind of person that was comfortable in his own skin and he didn't miss a beat when he was on the air.

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In fact, one time he was running into the studio late again, racing down the hall. You know, he jumps into his chair, his chair breaks out from underneath of him his feet go straight up in the air.

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And as soon as he hits the floor, he says, this is Bible Answer Man, you're on the air. And so he did the first segment with his feet straight up in the air and he didn't miss a beat.

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So he was just, you know, that comfortableness and that he was always prepared.

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It's just, he was a little bit challenged in getting there on time. So, but he was always prepared. All right, real quick.

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I just have a technical issue. My battery's gonna run low, so I have to switch my camera. So I charged it.

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I don't know what's going on. I always keep it in there, but we'll switch it up here such as the show must go on, right?

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Let me see if I could switch it here. There we go. I'm just a slightly different angle.

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I hope that that doesn't make a big difference here. There we go. Does that look okay? Is my hair okay? All right, very good.

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Oh, it's beautiful. Well, thank you very much. Okay. So you did mention something that your father was always late.

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Obviously he's a busy, he's a busy man. Okay. Now my next question, and I think this is a kind of a good practical question because a lot of people who do apologetics and study and you know, you're a parent, you have another job and you're trying to balance ministry together.

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It's always interesting to me to see someone like your father, these public figures who are very heavily involved in ministry on the front, it looks like they often have it together.

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I mean, I would have known your father comes late to stuff unless you told me. So we kind of have this perception that these folks have it all together.

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But I mean, he's a human being, we're all imperfect. How did your father, how was your father able to balance apologetics, writing, studying, speaking, debating, all of the prep that goes into that, being a dad and being present?

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I mean, I'm sure this was a great challenge for him. How did he balance that out in his life? Well, it was an enormous challenge.

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I would say he rose to the challenge considerably and so did my mom. I think that they really saw the purpose in what they were doing was the lost and helping people to come out of the cults and find the true

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Jesus of the gospel. And I think they were both really driven by their love for Jesus Christ and realizing that God had given them this to do.

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So she was really a good helpmate for him. And I really think that he just saw the eternal perspective.

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He loved us all so desperately and he spent as much time with us as he could. But I think that the eternal perspective was always right there in the forefront.

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And that was in our lives always. I mean, we couldn't even get in the car to drive someplace without my father asking the

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Lord to please give us a safe journey. And he was always thanking the Lord for something or pointing the way to the

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Lord in even the smallest ways. And so I think that we all had a real strong sense of what he was doing was pretty important.

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And I think that he brought it home to us so much, even taking us to work with him when we were little to the first CRI building and showing us what daddy did.

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He drove it home to us so much how, what a big part Jesus is to our lives and to our existence and to our world and why our world needs him so much.

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That I remember as a kid feeling the excitement of what he did. And so he was able to read, he was such a good communicator anyway.

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But even with me, I remember feeling like, wow, he's making me so, I'm so proud of my dad for what he does for Jesus.

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And I just remember, I remember feeling that and understanding that. And I don't remember growing up feeling like, oh, where's dad?

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It was, well, dad's telling the world about Jesus. Dad's teaching these things to the people that need to know them.

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And so I just remember a strong sense of feeling really proud of him and really understanding that this was a great thing he was doing, how privileged, what a privilege it was that we had a dad who did this and who loved

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Jesus like he did. So I just, I don't remember ever feeling like, gee, I wish my dad, he's just not spending enough time with us.

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My memories are full and my heart is full of what he brought to the table and what he gave us.

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So now that's awesome. So he felt the weight of the importance of what he was doing. Of course, no one was doing what he was doing.

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So in the capacity that, in what he was doing, obviously you have people who are evangelizing, doing apologetics, but in the capacity in which he did it,

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I think he was very unique. He was doing something that I think the church very much needed. But when you said that he kind of had the sense of eternity, kind of an eternal big picture, kind of we're here, we need to appreciate the moment that we're in.

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And we pray that God has his hand over our family, the ministry. In what specific tangible ways did he remind you guys of the importance of Jesus?

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I mean, your siblings and yourself, did he, when you guys were together, do you guys have personal devotions together?

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Was he a preachy kind of guy? Like, oh, here comes dad again. He's gonna start quoting the Bible. Or how did he integrate all of that in his parenting?

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Well, he was always quoting the Bible. Okay. He always emphasized the importance of memorizing scripture.

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I remember as a teenager, particularly, I mean, as a child, he was always, you know, he was always teaching us the word of God, of course.

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But I felt like he was living it too, which is a huge thing to be actually living it out in front of your children, not just let them hear you talk.

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They need to see you living it. As a teenager, I can remember my dad and I took many walks and I was so blessed and so privileged to be able to do those walks with him.

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And I remember him saying to me, one of the biggest things he said to me that has stuck with me my whole life and has impacted me so deeply and has helped me so much in my walk with Jesus is he used to say to me, keep track of God.

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You know, journal and keep track of God, put down your prayer requests, put down God's answers and put them down even if you don't like them.

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Even if you don't like, you know, how God resolved a situation, you need to be able to keep track of God. And then he said, and as you continue on doing this, you're gonna be able to look back and you're gonna have that record and you're gonna be refreshed and you're gonna be reminded of the goodness of God and how

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God is with you every day in every way and he has your back. So keep track of God and I never forgot that.

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That has helped me so much. That's excellent. I was, I just finished a three -part series, a sermon series at my church on the sovereignty of God.

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And so we did, the first sermon was the sovereignty of God kind of defined and explained.

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And then the second was the sovereignty of God in the midst of kind of a chaotic world. And then my last part was the sovereignty of God in you, you know, individually, you know,

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God's sovereignty in our lives. And what I did was I took my wife and I's prayer journal and I was able to, with permission,

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I was able to read some of our requests of God and the ways in which he answered and provided.

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And I think that's an awesome advice on the part of your dad, because for myself, I've lived it. There's something about seeing your struggle and then seeing and experiencing

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God's deliverance and seeing it on paper and saying, oh my goodness, that was so long ago. And God provided like, oh my, that's amazing.

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So much better than trying to just remember because we forget. We do forget, they just start complaining.

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God would do one miracle after another, even lifted the sea and yet they still, what are we gonna do now? You know, God, you know, and we're just the same way.

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And I think it's part of the reason that's there is to remind us, you know, that we are human and that we need to reflect on the goodness of God.

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And we need to write it down and hold fast to it and remind ourselves that God, God isn't gonna ever abandon us.

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And my father used to always say, God will provide. And Rick and I have had situations in our lives where, you know, we've had to look at each other and say, what are we gonna do?

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You know, and there was one in particular that was pretty heavy. And I remember hearing in the back of my mind, it just, it wasn't out loud like we're speaking now, but in the back of my mind,

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I heard my father's voice and words saying, the Lord will provide. And I remember thinking, you know, he had told me that throughout my life, the

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Lord will provide. And he would show me examples with CRI and say, you know, we've always had struggles, ministries do, they always have financial struggles.

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And he would say, I would think, oh, this is it. You know, we're right at the end of our rope here because how are we gonna, you know, get over that mountain?

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He said, but I would cry out to God and I would see God move the mountain. So he would often show me the mountains

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God moved. And so it has really strengthened my faith in knowing that the

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Lord will provide because I saw him provide countless times for CRI, for our family and in my own family.

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Now, as life has moved on, the Lord will provide because he takes care of his own.

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And he owns, my father used to say, he owns the cattle on a thousand hills and he does, and he will care for you.

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He will care for me. That's awesome. That's awesome. Now, I wanna shift gears. So those kind of the character of your dad,

29:23

I mean, such an inspiration. There's so much to draw from. This interests me a lot.

29:30

I mean, I read a lot, you know, but there's something about reading like about a person, like people that I admire and read about the person and the things that they did in their lives that those sorts of books, like your own, how would you like to refer to your book?

29:45

There's like the title and then there's that subtitle. So I can keep repeating the title. I just said the

29:50

Bible Answer Man. The Bible Answer Man. Okay. That book is the kind of book that I can breeze through very quickly.

30:02

Sometimes I read very slowly. This one is just so captivated because you have so many interesting things on every page and the people that he knew and his relationship with certain people, some of the controversies that, and having come with some of that background information, you know, on some of these very well -known points in your dad's ministry to kind of get that insider scoop.

30:22

Interesting. So interesting. So I'm very much intrigued about those sorts of things. So my next question is kind of a background question.

30:31

I mean, your dad was the Bible Answer Man, but he did not just magically absorb all of this information.

30:37

I mean, I understand how apologetics work, how study works. It is work.

30:43

And so my question for you, and I think listeners would be interested, how did your dad study? What did that look like?

30:49

I mean, I'm sure it was blocks of time. I mean, he probably was reading all sorts of stuff and researching.

30:55

What did that look like in the age before the internet, when he couldn't Google something on his phone? You know, I can't see how he was able to do what he did without a phone by his side.

31:05

Well, he had a very large Bible and he had it underlined from beginning to end and notes all through it, like you wouldn't believe.

31:14

I just, it was falling apart and it was clear that he was in that Bible quite a bit. He also was blessed with a photographic memory.

31:22

So he once told me too, that he read the dictionary because he wanted to put so much more definition, all the definitions of words, he wanted to plant those into his mind and into his brain so that he would have more easy access to the

31:35

English language type of thing. So, I mean, I don't know anyone, I've never met anyone in my life that has told me like that, that they read the dictionary.

31:43

Who can read the dictionary? But he did because he wanted to have an advantage, you know, and he did have an advantage.

31:50

So he did that and the photographic memory was really a blessing for him because he can literally pull things out like you can't believe.

31:57

Now, you know, just like everybody else, he sometimes would have days where, you know, maybe he didn't change the film, you know.

32:04

But overall, you know, I think that his memory was incredible and the gift that God gave him was pretty remarkable.

32:12

And if you're blessed enough to have that to your advantage, you know, you truly are as blessed as he was.

32:17

But I think that the memorization of scripture is really one of the biggest keys,

32:24

I think, to defending the word of God and to getting through life, to have it to draw from your soul, to comfort you, to guide you, to help you to reach others for the kingdom.

32:36

So I think it's a huge thing. Yeah, and when

32:41

I explain something to that effect and I try to highlight the fact that scripture is so important in apologetics,

32:46

I like to think of it as kind of, we study scripture until it becomes the background music of our minds.

32:51

It's kind of like when you're humming a song and, you know, it starts playing and you remember the next line because it's in you.

32:57

It's kind of like you're a filled sponge and when the pressure of life touches the sponge, the water starts gushing out.

33:03

I think that's what we need to do. And your dad exemplified that so wonderfully. Scripture should be the soundtrack of your life.

33:11

That's right. The soundtrack for your entire life because it's that soft place that you can, when you fall, there it is.

33:19

And God always showed you something new. It's always something new is coming from this scripture, that scripture, that scripture.

33:24

So it comes back to you, you'd, and it renews you. I mean, it's just, it's a miracle. The word of God is a miracle.

33:31

And to have it with you wherever you go by that memorization process, you'll never regret that because it's, it really is obeying the scriptures, which says to hide

33:41

God's word in our hearts. When you say your dad's Bible was highlighted from beginning to end.

33:47

I mean, was he always just reading the scriptures all the time?

33:52

I mean, like, what did that look like? Did he take out like blocks of time? Did he, you know, what? That's interesting to me.

33:59

I mean, I've read my Bible. He probably read it at night. Huh? At night.

34:06

At night a lot. He would have his question with the Lord and read through the scriptures. He was often in there, always finding things new.

34:14

Like I said, always, always trying to see, you know, like, like Hank says, Hank Hanegraaff, you know, to mind the scriptures for all their worth.

34:21

My father was the same way. So great example there. Yeah. Excellent. Excellent. Now I want to talk a little bit about the importance of apologetics and the local church.

34:33

And I know that your dad was not simply an apologist. I think he valued very much the body of Christ and there's something interesting going on in the world of online apologetics.

34:44

People who do what I do, who have YouTube channels and they're kind of known for doing this specific thing. Oftentimes they'll be very popular for doing apologetics, but there's often no evidence that there's a connection to an overarching body of believers, that they're connected to a healthy church.

35:01

And so you have people arguing on the internet and studying philosophy and theology, but there's no overarching accountability and just evidence of being connected to the body of Christ.

35:13

How did your dad, how much did your dad value doing apologetics under the umbrella of a healthy church?

35:20

I think that'd be important for folks to know about. He did value it quite a bit. And, you know, first there was that step of getting people interested in the apologetics, defending your faith and teaching people about the cults and how to defend their faith.

35:33

You know, getting the churches interested and getting those resources to the church and getting all of that rolling.

35:39

I think that was a big part of it. And I think he always intended for people to be subject to the elders of their church and to be humble and to present the truth and love.

35:50

And I think he set an excellent example of that when he spoke as many times as he did everywhere to try to push people to not only be sharing the truth and knowing why you believe and knowing how to reach certain cults and all that kind of stuff, but he was always pressing for accountability.

36:10

And I think that that's part of what the church body, you know, the local church is all about is that we should be accountable to one another, but we should be, you know, come to each other in humility and we should get the log out of our own eye before, you know, we try to get it out of someone else's.

36:28

And I think that he was a good, he just was a good example of that.

36:34

And he tried to teach that to people that, you know, support your local church and, you know, be under its leadership and don't be fully yourself, you know, be humble, be humble.

36:46

And he was very humble. And that's one thing that's so blessed me about his life. He would joke, you know, and say goofy things, you know, sometimes he'd say, you know, you can kiss my ring or something, you know, after he shared something profound or something, it's just something silly, not profound scripturally.

37:01

He would never mock scripture in any sense at all. But just, he might say something silly.

37:07

And if it was to his credit, he might say, you may kiss my ring. And then he would laugh and we would laugh.

37:12

And he was always, everything always came back to the Lord and giving God glory for anything, anything that he counted gain that God had done through him.

37:21

He always would circle it back to Jesus Christ and to God be the glory. And yet always was willing to, you know, make fun of himself and laugh and goof around with us.

37:32

And I don't think that you can have six kids and stay sane if you don't have a really good sense of humor and you can't really laugh at life and all that kind of joy.

37:43

I don't have six kids, but three is enough for me to get that treatment. Yeah, I think you set a good example.

37:50

Very good. Well, I have to say that listening to your father and I highly encourage people,

37:58

I mean, there's a lot of audio material on YouTube and you can download podcasts of his teachings.

38:04

Your father had, I think, a very interesting gift of teaching apologetics, enriching the mind, but also all at the same time bringing conviction upon people who have not engaged in that aspect of the

38:18

Christian life that we should, right? I mean, people command in 1 Peter 3 15 for everyone.

38:24

And so your dad was one of the few people that when I listened to, I feel terrible, you know, not because I agree with everything he said, but like,

38:32

I'm not doing enough, you know, I gotta go out and, you know, it's so funny to me that oftentimes people will pray with kind of a false sense of piety.

38:40

Lord, please send someone in my path so that I can share your powerful message of the gospel.

38:46

And then someone knocks on the door and be like, lock the door, it's the Jehovah's Witness, you know, God brings people in our lives and then we run from the opportunities.

38:53

Your dad definitely brought conviction and made me want to engage people.

38:59

Even when it was uncomfortable. So I think that was a very interesting gift that he was able to do every time

39:04

I listened to him. So I greatly appreciate that. Yes, he was a great, he had a gift of encouragement and he was really a good motivator.

39:11

He would really equip you with ideas and ways that you could get these people to listen to you.

39:16

Like one of the things I remember him distinctly saying was, you know, after you've had, if God's given you some time to talk to them, just, you know, see if they'll pray with you.

39:25

And if they'll pray with you, see if you can share any more nuggets of truth in that prayer to kind of add on to what you've already done.

39:33

You know, you always had these, just these little ideas to try to help people to be able to reach as far into their darkness with the light as God would allow.

39:42

So I really loved that about him. Yes, very much so. That's definitely, he tried to incorporate the gospel in everything and that definitely is evident in everything that he does.

39:51

I think a lot of apologists who tend to focus on the philosophical and the theological aspects really should take a note of when it all is said and done, we need to get to the gospel.

40:00

We need to get to the scriptures and speak the truth of Jesus Christ to people who need to hear it. Now, I wanna shift gears and talk a little bit about CRI, the

40:09

Christian Research Institute. How did your father get the idea of saying, you know what,

40:15

I'm speaking, I'm teaching, I'm writing. I'm not sure if he started writing after he established

40:21

CRI or before. What inspired him to say, I want to, you know, have this,

40:29

I guess this ministry that was more centralized and more focused and intentional in the way that it did its outreach.

40:35

What inspired him to kind of start the Christian Research Institute? Well, he really wanted to create a think tank of resources, full of resources that would help equip the lost and the lost in the cults.

40:49

So the lost, the body of Christ and those ensnared in the cults that are also lost, obviously. So he wanted to, he saw a deficit in the church that they weren't addressing and they weren't teaching people how to defend their faith.

41:04

A lot of them weren't, none of them were teaching people how to defend their faith, but a lot of them weren't.

41:10

And so he saw the need for people to learn, okay, know why I believe what

41:15

I believe and teach them how to relay that to other people and communicate that and to give them the scriptures to do it and additional resources to do it so that they could best evangelize the world and bring other people into God's kingdom.

41:32

And he wanted to have a place where people could call in, write for resources or call in and ask questions and be able to equip them the best way possible.

41:43

And that's where he came up with the think tank, CRI becoming that think tank. And then the resources, one by one, as God gave them to him becoming available to the body of Christ through this dynamic ministry that was helping to equip the body and aiding the church and teaching its congregants to mind the

42:04

Bible for all it's worth in the sense of even reaching, which some people might've saw as the unreachable or they didn't even know that the

42:11

Jesus of Mormonism wasn't the true Jesus. There's so many people that still think Mormonism is Christian and some of these cults are

42:18

Christian and they still need to come to understand the truth. And my father, he just had that desire to awaken the church and awaken people to, hey, they need

42:28

Jesus and this is how we do it. And so I think that he wanted to be able through CRI to accomplish that goal and he did.

42:36

He did and God had put that goal on his heart, so. Yeah, and how quickly did it grow in its popularity?

42:43

Because I'm sure he was tapping into something that people were saying, hey, hey, this is different. Like I have a resource, I can call in and I can get my answers that I can bring back and share with my friends and my family.

42:54

How quickly did it grow? Was it kind of a rapid growth or was this kind of over time people began to kind of look into it and say, oh, this is interesting.

43:02

Was it an explosion? Was it slow? What did that look like? It was an explosion, but I would say, when I was writing this book,

43:08

I kept saying to my husband, Rick, I would have to step back and look at all this and think, oh my goodness,

43:14

I cannot believe the footprints of God in my father's life, because from a human perspective, it may not look that rapid, but I think it actually happened fairly fast.

43:27

When I see everything that I've laid out in the book that God, the main nuts and bolts to how

43:33

God brought this ministry together and how he brought my dad to the table to do these things.

43:39

And like in 1963 was his first radio program, Gateline Eternity. And then in 1965 came the

43:46

Bible Answer Man. And my father had also been a guest host for a Dr. Barnhouse, who was a

43:53

Presbyterian pastor. And so he had gotten his, he got kind of gotten his feet wet being associated with Barnhouse, who was one of his mentors.

44:02

And so I could see through, as I was writing this book, I could see how God was walking him step by step by step to get him to these different places that would unleash this ministry on the church in such a supernatural way, because everything

44:16

God does is supernatural and just amazing. And I'm so astonished too how interesting it is that, you know, my father's parents wanted him to be an attorney and he wanted to defend the word of God in the supernatural courtroom of the world.

44:32

And here was father, a famous judge back in the days of Al Capone, you know, in the courtroom defending truth, you know, in the world.

44:41

And yet my father was called to that supernatural courtroom. And I'm just so, I'm just so blown away by seeing his path.

44:49

And I, you know, in some ways you look at it and you think, well, that took a little time here, that took a little time there, but the overall picture of it.

44:56

I mean, when you think about the fact that he went home to be with the Lord after he had been at the helm at CRI for 30 years, so much had been accomplished.

45:05

I mean, God raised it up from the ground up and 30 years is not that long a period of time. And then when he positioned

45:11

Hank to be in there and put him in there, and here we are 30 years later, where it was, you know, over 60 years now with this ministry equipping the church still and sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ.

45:24

I mean, it's just astonishing all that God has done through both of these men. He raised up to do this ministry of CRI, so.

45:32

Yeah, now with a ministry that wide reaching and that influential, I guess in my mind,

45:39

I'm thinking that being involved in such a ministry and standing at the helm of such a ministry can be stressful.

45:46

Spiritually, physically, it's very demanding. Did your dad kind of being at the helm of CRI, did that take a toll on family life?

45:57

Was that something that the family felt the burden of this big ministry and just the commitment that was needed to do something like that?

46:05

I don't think I felt, I don't think I felt burdened. I can only speak for myself in that regard in terms of, you know, my siblings and all too.

46:13

I didn't feel burdened by it. I felt blessed by it. I'm sure that as a couple, you know, my parents having five children and navigating through all of those waters, you know,

46:24

I'm sure that they had quite the challenges and I know that it took its toll on them. I know that they had their trials and their struggles, but I really feel like God saw them through those and brought them both to a better place, you know, through the storms of their lives because they eventually divorced, which

46:44

I do mention in my book, I don't discuss it much. But I think that, you know, we're human beings and even

46:52

Christians go through struggles and difficulties. And I think that, you know, perhaps with my mom, you know, it probably took a bigger toll having the five children and everything else.

47:03

And she's completely 100 % supported him. So it's not a criticism, but I think that sometimes things happen in those directions, but God just,

47:13

God has a way of working all things to our good, you know, to those who love him and who are called according to his purpose.

47:19

And I think that even though she basically, she basically left that relationship.

47:27

She really loved the Lord and she really loved the gospel of Jesus Christ and God brought her eventually to a better place.

47:35

And I think God, I mentioned this too, because God brought my dad through that shipwreck. I think that difficult season of his life in a huge way.

47:44

And I talk about it a little bit in the book, but just in a very respectful and more private, I just tried to only touch on what

47:50

I think would be edifying to people's lives who, you know, so many people have been hurting and so many people have go through so many trials and struggles and divorce, unfortunately, is a very common thing, even amongst

48:03

Christians. And I think people need to know that God, God, he will see you through if you're in a difficult situation,

48:12

God will see you through. He saw my father through and he protected his ministry in CRI and he protected our family and God just is there.

48:23

You know, God's there all the way and he's what, he rescues us in every situation.

48:28

And my father saw that and he, he didn't talk around the situation.

48:34

He was always quick to talk to me about whatever his feelings were and what God was doing and what his disappointments were, but always recognizing, you know, no matter what we face, we have to hold fast to the word of God, hold fast to Jesus and know that he is with us until we're home in his presence and just do the best for the

48:54

Lord you can, no matter what comes. Yeah. Now, when I was reading your book and you were mentioning that kind of that, that trial of his life,

49:05

I mean, it was beautiful how you painted this picture of an awesome father, you know, funny and you guys were close and you did things together and you kind of brought me along on the emotional journey so that the impact of that aspect of the story,

49:19

I really felt and the sinner in me wanted to know all the details, but I actually came away with a greater respect with how you treated that topic.

49:30

It's that we don't need to know the details. What you were able to highlight was not the details of, well, what happened in all the deep, dark, secret inner workings of your family.

49:40

You were able to say, listen, we're not perfect. We struggle with sin, but God is, you know,

49:46

God is faithful. And you were able to take that dark point in his life and bring out the necessary light to focus the focus where it needed to be, not so much on, you know, the behind the scenes issues, but more that God brings hope out of those.

50:04

And it kind of drew me back. You got, you drew me so deeply in, I thought you were gonna explain, then you were like, well,

50:10

I don't wanna get into details, but here, and I was like, you know, that was a very strategic and gracious move the way you narrated the story.

50:16

And it actually convicted me in the sense that, you know, I should be more concerned with the faithfulness of God instead of wanting to know all the details of this, that, or the other thing.

50:27

And that really showed me your heart and your desire to really just honor

50:32

God's workings through the life of your father in a tasteful way and a respectful way while acknowledging, hey, we're broken people, we need

50:42

Jesus. So I actually enjoyed that and was impacted in the way that you treated that episode in your father's life.

50:50

Oh, I'm glad, I'm glad. He taught me a lot through his trials. And that was his greatest trial, probably his greatest personal trial, but he learned a lot.

51:01

He taught me a lot. He was very transparent. He was very open about his struggles.

51:07

And that helped me to not be so afraid of struggles and to see Jesus so sustaining him.

51:13

It's not that you don't have tears. It's not that you don't hurt, but Jesus sustains you and he's with you, and you can walk to him from the boat and he won't let you drown.

51:24

Yeah, excellent. Once again, guys, the Bible Answer Man book written by Cindy.

51:30

She's an excellent writer and she has first, she's an eyewitness. It's kind of like the New Testament. You got eyewitness accounts of Dr.

51:37

Walter Martin's more personal side and some behind the scenes of the ministry. I highly recommend the

51:43

Bible Answer Man. You can download it on Kindle. Is it out on paperback as well, or? It is Kindle and paperback.

51:49

Okay, yeah, so definitely recommend it. A very quick read. I was able to breeze through it, but it was interesting and captivating, so.

51:56

Yeah, the paperback does the 30 plus photos, whereas the Kindle doesn't have photos. We also have a lot of Walter Martin videos available on WalterMartinU3 on YouTube that are really riveting and that you'd really get a good taste of who my father was too and enjoy his gift of teaching us about the gospel.

52:17

So we also have that available there as well. Then now I have to purchase the paperback now.

52:23

That's, I feel like I've been robbed. I've been gypped. I paid for the digital and I don't get all the copies.

52:32

Only certain books that I will have the digital and I'm like, you know what? I think I need the physical copy too.

52:38

So I might order the physical copy as well. I like stuff like that. So, okay.

52:44

I wanted to ask about, in your book, you mentioned something that I thought was very important.

52:50

And it was not only that your dad was at the helm of CRI and he was very dedicated to allowing it to be a resource for the church, but he was very much interested in thinking about the future of CRI.

53:06

I think a lot of people need to pay attention to something like that because we can be so involved in what we're doing that we forget that we're not gonna live forever.

53:15

And so when we're gone, it's like, what happens to everything, this hard work that we dedicated to, you know, these things that God used us.

53:24

How important was the future when your dad, you said your dad had this kind of eternal perspective.

53:30

He was able to see this big picture. How important was the future of CRI to your dad and what did he do to secure the future of CRI?

53:38

It was enormously important. I think that one of the reasons why he was able to handle this with such grace and such faithfulness is because he saw his own mortality quite clearly.

53:50

And he didn't underestimate, you know, that we could all be gone at any given time.

53:55

He also had a heart problem. He was a severe diabetic, even though he always hit the ground running and ministering and was doing great from the outward appearance, his heart wasn't doing great.

54:04

He never mentioned to his kids that his heart wasn't that bad of condition. So we didn't know how imminent his death was.

54:12

My dad did. And, you know, looking back is when I really saw 2020 more what he did.

54:20

When I did the research for this book and the interviews that I did and everything else for this book, I realized, oh my goodness,

54:26

I'm so proud of him because he had the foresight by the power of God to say,

54:32

I want this ministry to land on its feet. I don't want this ministry to die. Excuse me.

54:38

You know, because the founder has died. And so that became something that really drove him.

54:44

And I saw him going after Hank Hanegraaff in terms of wanting him to be a part of CRI.

54:51

So I witnessed that firsthand. Rick and I lived in Arizona at the time. We're in Minnesota right now. But at that time, when my dad was alive, we were in Arizona.

54:57

So we saw him quite a bit. And when we would go back and forth, six hour drive and go back and forth, we'd see

55:02

Hank and Kathy at the house. My father was so excited about this man, but I didn't connect the dots.

55:08

I didn't realize that he was actually grooming him to replace him in the event of his death.

55:14

And I don't think my father wanted to sit his kids down and say, you know what? You know, I'm doing that because I know he would have created panic in us.

55:22

And I'm sure he just thought he would leave that part to the Lord, which I think was wise. So when it came to Hank, I just heard how excited he was and what a great job

55:31

Hank was doing at CRI. That was about the limit of what I heard about it. And so I was able to uncover these tapes of my father speaking at his

55:41

Bible class. And that was a miracle how that happened. And I share that in the book. It's a tremendous miracle how

55:47

God brought that about. It was, you know, wanting to, you know, when the attacks came saying, oh no, he's not, he wasn't ever chosen to be that leader.

55:56

I just thought, you know, I prayed one night and I said, Lord, I just, I wish I could. And this is after Hank had been, you know, leading

56:02

CRI for 10 years was when he was being attacked and people were saying, well,

56:08

Walter Martin, he didn't pick you. So 10 years after the fact of him sitting at that home, he was faced with that.

56:15

And I remember saying to the Lord, as I was praying one day in my office, I said, Lord, you know, I just, I wish

56:20

I could hear my father's voice because I would just love to know what his mindset was further than he was excited about Hank and they were friends and he really loved

56:29

Hank and he was a great brother in Christ. And I wanted to know beyond that where CRI was concerned. And within two weeks of me praying that prayer,

56:36

I had only just gone on to YouTube and established a YouTube channel and ministry channel on YouTube.

56:43

And this man contacted me that I had never met in my life. He was an atheist, he used to work for CRI, not in the days of my father, but when

56:51

Hank was there, excuse me, and he wanted to have, he wanted to tell me, he said,

56:58

I have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of audio tapes, you know, about your, you know, with your father speaking and would you like them?

57:06

And I thought, well, I've got tapes of my dad, but I don't have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds, you know, and we're talking about maybe eight or 900 tapes.

57:13

So I was really shocked by that. He goes, yeah, he goes on, I just want to give them to you. I would, because I had had, we were putting videos up of my dad at that time.

57:20

And he said, I just want to give them to you. You can have them. And I said, well, thank you so much. You wouldn't let me pay the postage, nothing when they came, the boxes came to my waist, there were two of them.

57:29

Wow. Yeah, so it was incredible. And I opened the box and as, it took me weeks to go through these boxes, but I kept a player,

57:38

I kept a cassette player and I kept popping in tapes as I do laundry, as I clean the house, you know, when

57:43

I was home, you know, running around, I'd be playing and listening to my father preaching. And I kept hoping that I would hear something about Hank and CRI because I thought, you know, my uncle who had been on the board for over 40 years,

57:57

I was very close to him and told me, oh, Cindy, I took the notes, you know, for the board meetings and it was

58:02

Hank and your dad wanted him there. And this is the path, you know, and so I had information from other people that I knew was really important, but I thought, wouldn't it be a blessing if I could hear my father in his own words?

58:14

Well, fair enough, you know, as I'm going through these mountains of tapes, I find a few cassette tapes that are marked,

58:21

Walter Martin chooses Hank Hanegraaff to lead CRI. Wow. So I'm popping in those tapes and I'm listening to this and I'm listening to my father's own voice.

58:31

God's pretty creative. I mean, I feel like I got these tapes, not only from a worldly zip code, like I say in my book, but from a supernatural zip code.

58:38

And I'm listening to these tapes and I'm listening to Walter Martin say, you know, I want someone who can preach.

58:44

I want someone who can teach. I want someone who can run the whole operation who is good in the world of the cults. You know, I want someone who can step in and I really need someone like that, you know?

58:52

And so he said, I have looked, I have, you know, vetted this man for, you know, I prayed for one man for two years.

58:59

He knew Hank for at least five years. They had a close friendship. So I was hearing all my dad's enthusiasm and excitement as he told his

59:08

Bible class all about Hank Hanegraaff and introduced him to the class. The class was praying for Hank.

59:14

Hank was helping with CRI stuff in Brazil at the time. And my father was introducing him to speak about that.

59:21

And it was so exciting because it gave me an in -depth look, a glance through time to listen to my father, you know, set the record straight for now and forever that, hey, this is what

59:34

I did because God put it on my heart to get this man. He wanted Hank and he wanted

59:39

Hank to stay. Now, Hank, if you listen to my interview too, which I know you read the interview in the book, fantastic interview.

59:45

He answers everything. He answers so many important questions and wonderful questions and does it with such grace and does it in such love.

59:54

And, you know, Hank describes that whole experience with Walter Martin and how he had told my dad he would commute back and forth between Georgia and California because he wasn't sure he wanted the job.

01:00:04

He meant it in the nicest way, of course, because he just wanted to be sure of to do what

01:00:09

God had, you know, his plate for him to do and to really search that out. And it was going fantastic.

01:00:16

He was commuting back and forth and my dad was praying he would stay and the Bible class was praying and all this stuff was going on.

01:00:22

Then my father died. My father died. And there he was. And he was able to step in to very big shoes that were hard to step into.

01:00:34

And he was a young man, very young man at the time and just in his 30s, I think early 30s, mid 30s.

01:00:40

And he was able to step into those shoes of Walter Martin and he was able to run with the baton.

01:00:47

And to, you know, share the gospel of Jesus Christ and keep trying to build that think tank of CRI and the resources to try to equip the body of Christ in the same way that Walter Martin had.

01:01:00

And so I, you know, knowing Hank as well as Rick and I do, we've known him a long time. And I can tell you, you know, he's a wonderful brother in Christ.

01:01:08

He's got such a passion for the Lord Jesus Christ and a passion for the lost. And he reminds

01:01:13

Rick and I in so many different ways. He reminds us of my father. And I could see the wisdom of my father in putting him there.

01:01:21

And so, you know, Rick and I kind of took it a little bit as a personal front that he was being attacked for not being picked by Walter Martin.

01:01:29

It was being so criticized and so demonized by some. Rick and I took that very personally because we really, not only for the ministry of CRI, wanting it to thrive, because ever since I was a little girl,

01:01:39

I was taught to pray, God bless CRI and all separates. So I love the ministry, but we really took it personally in a sense that we knowing my father so well and being so proud of him and how he really laid the groundwork to put in a dear brother in Jesus Christ that would not be able to be, you know, swayed into any wrong direction in terms of just loving

01:02:02

Jesus Christ and continuing on the same goal of equipping the church and loving people and pressing on the way my father did.

01:02:12

He did such a good job in vetting Hank. And I think that's an impressive thing.

01:02:19

And my father wouldn't just put anyone in there. And I've had people come to me and say, well, it was so -and -so and, you know, this person was supposed to be picked and that person.

01:02:27

And the sad part about that is, is that the truth is, is that my father vetted many people. He vetted many people, but Hank, he made the distinction of saying one man he prayed for for two years and he kept trying to get

01:02:40

Hank to come from Georgia. And finally Hank agreed. Excuse me. So my father really stayed the course and just went after this goal with such discipline and faithfulness and really relied on the

01:02:55

Lord to guide him through that process. And he should be given the credit for that because he did what he set out to do.

01:03:01

He protected that ministry. And to this day, people come to Jesus Christ through it and are equipped through it as well.

01:03:09

So I think that was a huge thing. He should be given credit for it. Yeah, and I think you talk about that in your book, that interview that you included in the appendix was very, very interesting.

01:03:25

Again, you get to see a side of Hank that I never, I mean, that I've never seen. It was kind of, you know, interviewing the daughter of a good friend is different than just, you know, me interview, if I ever interviewed him or something.

01:03:36

There was kind of a camaraderie and an intimacy there that you guys were just kind of going back and forth.

01:03:42

And it was just a nice flowing discussion and very informative as well. And my last question, of course,

01:03:49

Hank Hanegraaff has been, you know, the center of controversy because of his conversion to Eastern Orthodoxy.

01:03:56

And you talk about that in your book as well, which I was glad you did because that's something that people are interested in.

01:04:04

And of course you have the hotheads who, you know, are a little too interested in it. And then you have the people who are kind of trying to understand how would

01:04:11

Dr. Walter Martin would have felt if, you know, if he was alive and Hank kind of made this conversion.

01:04:18

My last question for you, how would your father have viewed Hank's conversion to Eastern Orthodoxy?

01:04:25

Well, it's an interesting question. Of course, I don't know exactly how he would respond. He would have responded,

01:04:31

I can just go off of, you know, my knowledge of him, what he believed and all of the rest. My father, you know, it's interesting because he didn't demonize the

01:04:42

Catholic Church in the sense he said he didn't call him a cult, which I know got him in trouble with certain, you know, Christians calling him a cult, calling them a cult because he believed, of course, that they had the core

01:04:51

Christian doctrine, just like the Eastern Orthodox Church, just like the Protestant Church, and that they all fell under the umbrella of Orthodoxy.

01:05:00

So my father, you know, it's in the last, especially the last five years of his life, he was really frustrated what was going on in the

01:05:09

Protestant Church. So frustrated on so many levels with the health wealth gospel. He was really frustrated with the dispensational crowd because he was being demonized himself or not being dispensational.

01:05:23

So that really troubled him and he was trying to help people to get along and to stop fighting.

01:05:28

And he kept trying to remind them that dispensationalism came from Darby in the 1800s and that Earl Spurgeon himself warned against it.

01:05:39

And it was looked upon as something added to the scriptures. And so this was something that my father was pretty bold to speak out against and warn people, you know, not only do

01:05:48

I not agree with you, but the fact that you've chosen to make this a point of division amongst yourselves is even worse.

01:05:55

So my father, of course, didn't gain a lot of popularity, you know, in that domain, but I'm really proud of him because, you know, the

01:06:05

Hal Lindsey was his really good friend and his relationship with Hal Lindsey, you know, kind of taught people how to get along by when they disagreed.

01:06:14

And he had the funniest go rounds with Hal Lindsey. One of them's in my book, and of course on Walter Brown Jew Three, our

01:06:20

YouTube channel, you can hear it there. He really had, he set a good example for the church and sort of Hal Lindsey alongside my dad, you know, on this topic.

01:06:31

So I think that my father was discouraged by the fact that people were demonizing other people.

01:06:37

You know, you're not dispensational, you're not dispensational, then you're not a Christian. You know, we certainly heard that a lot and that really troubled him.

01:06:45

And then, you know, you're going to be a little God, you know, Paul Crouch and, you know, Copeland and Hagan and, you know, name and claim, you know, just he wants you to be rich, he wants you to be well, you know, all of this stuff was creeping in and just a lot of false doctrine, you know, you don't have to confess your sin, you know, your sinless perfection, all these different things, homosexuality, you know, being embraced by the church, you know, so much of the church turning a blind eye to the fact that thousands of our little ones are murdered in the womb every single day.

01:07:18

And where's the church, you know, there's a lot of people standing out against that, but there's the majority of the church is pretty silent.

01:07:25

So there's so many issues that have gone on with the Protestant church. I could see my father himself getting disheartened by how much evil was erupting in the

01:07:35

Protestant church since the Reformation. And there's evil in the Eastern Orthodox Church and there's evil in the

01:07:41

Catholic church and he would speak out against evil wherever he saw it.

01:07:46

But what he didn't do is he didn't say, okay, Catholics, you know, this is a cult or the other churches, you know,

01:07:54

Eastern Orthodox or the Protestant faith, you know, he didn't throw the baby out with the bath water.

01:07:59

He would say they all contain the core Christian doctrine. We need to fight for each other. We need to fight for each other in love.

01:08:06

We need to approach each other with gentleness and respect and we need to agree on the things that we can agree on, the core

01:08:11

Christian doctrines and on the things that we feel like are danger zones. We need to go there together in love.

01:08:18

And you know, some people have said to me, well, you know, Jesus flipped tables and, you know, look at all, you know, you did a

01:08:23

Vipers and all that kind of stuff. You know, well, guess what? You're not Jesus. You're not Jesus. There's a code of conduct that the child of God is given.

01:08:31

And that is that we are to go to each other in humility and in love and not demonize one another.

01:08:36

I heard a well -known speaker demonize Hank, you know, because of the fact that he joined

01:08:42

Eastern Orthodox Church when this particular well -known speaker touts dispensationalism as the totally, you know, true perspective, you know, that we should all embrace and that it's, you know, defined by scripture.

01:08:56

And he really believes in that. And yet he doesn't want to be demonized for believing that because he thinks that's the truth.

01:09:04

Well, yet it's okay to demonize someone else that doesn't agree with you, even though they belong to a church that has the core

01:09:11

Christian doctrines. And so I think that what we have seen is people demonizing each other too much and not showing love, not showing humility, saying these things pridefully as if we are the end all to truth, which none of us are.

01:09:24

We all should be growing in grace and in truth and be willing to put our arm around that brother.

01:09:31

It's like, my father used to always say when he was talking about dispensationalism, especially give your brother a break, give your brother a break because, you know, once they threatened to pull his microphone when he was speaking at a church, he was there to talk about the cults.

01:09:44

And they said, and if you talk about dispensationalism at all, because it was a dispensationalist church, they said, we'll cut your mic.

01:09:52

So all this to say that he was very troubled by evil in these branches.

01:10:00

Every one of them troubled him for different reasons. And he would speak out against that. And so Hank is no different.

01:10:08

Hank, you know, got really troubled by things that he was seeing in the Protestant church as well. The thing that convinced him to go with the

01:10:14

Eastern Orthodox Church, which by the way, my father never spoke out against. And C .S.

01:10:20

Lewis, of course, loved a lot of the, C .S. Lewis said it was the best liturgy anywhere was the liturgy of the

01:10:25

Eastern Orthodox Church. So highly regarded by C .S.

01:10:30

Lewis, highly regarded by my dad, but there again, Hank would be the first one to tell you that there are

01:10:36

Christians in the Catholic church, Christians in the Protestant church and Christians in the Eastern Orthodox Church, but many lost in each branch.

01:10:44

And for Hank, I think what led him into the Eastern Orthodoxy is he went back to look at the church roots. How did we do church?

01:10:51

Like we talk about in the interview that I have with him, how did they do church? You know, when there wasn't even a

01:10:57

Bible, when things weren't even written down. And that really drew him in to find out what did the church fathers believe?

01:11:03

And he studied that. And he studied, you know, more about the Eucharist. And Martin Luther, interestingly enough, you know, he's so worshiped in a sense in the

01:11:13

Protestant circles because of the Reformation. And yet Martin Luther, we know, was very, very

01:11:18

Catholic in many ways, even up until the time of his death and believed in what actually drew

01:11:24

Hank into the Eastern Orthodox faith, which was the Eucharist, that the Christ's presence was actually in the bread and in the wine somehow in a way that we can't understand and a truth that is an ancient truth that we can't understand.

01:11:39

And Martin Luther, you know, clung to that truth. And Hank became more swayed in that direction like Luther.

01:11:47

And yet I've heard people demonize Hank for believing exactly like Luther believed when

01:11:52

Luther is an icon, basically, of the Protestant church. And so, you know,

01:11:58

I think all of this, to answer your question with would my father, how would he have responded?

01:12:04

I think my father would have said, just knowing him, this is my own opinion, I think my father would have just felt like, you know, they contain the core

01:12:13

Christian doctrine, keep highlighting the differences that are disturbing to us, you know, in each one of these branches, keep fighting for the lost, keep equipping the church for cult, he equipped the

01:12:27

Catholic church, you know, he, Father Pacwa, you know, would teach his Sunday school class sometimes, a

01:12:34

Jesuit priest that he had become friends with, Father Pacwa. And he actually taught his class because he was a dear brother in Jesus Christ and my father recognized that.

01:12:43

So I think my father would have loved Hank still, I think he would have still embraced him as a brother in Jesus Christ.

01:12:51

I think that he would have seen the path that Hank chose and would have just kept on pressing him to contend earnestly for the faith that was once for all delivered unto the saints, core

01:13:03

Christian doctrines, you know, love each other, present the truth and love, go back and forth, talk to one another, but don't stand up in a pulpit, don't stand up in a pulpit and demonize each other because that is not

01:13:14

Christianity, that's not what we're called to do, we're called to love and to speak that truth and love and to not put out hits on one another.

01:13:26

And I think an important point too is speaking the truth and love doesn't mean we're compromising.

01:13:32

So for example, everything you've just stated with your dad's view on the Roman Catholics and Orthodox, there might be people who are listening to this and disagree with your father.

01:13:41

And quite frankly, I have different views than your father, I would take a different position, but even in the midst of that disagreement, right?

01:13:49

Whether you think a Catholic is a true Christian or not, or an Orthodox person is a true Christian or not, the way we go about those disagreements,

01:13:57

I'm sorry? Or if a Protestant is a true Christian or not. But regardless of where you come, if you're claiming to stand on scripture, the method whereby we disagree must be in line with scripture.

01:14:11

So if I'm gonna disagree with someone, I wanna follow the gentleness and respect without compromise method.

01:14:19

And I think that's important because there are people who, for example, don't believe that Roman Catholicism is, they hold to some key doctrines that really do divide.

01:14:29

And even in the midst of that, that doesn't mean we have the right to demonize them. If you think a group is lost for whatever reason, preach the gospel, you know?

01:14:40

And I think even in the midst of division, we can still show love and open lines of communications without compromising on our principles and areas that we do think that maybe we might disagree on what's essential and what's not or whatever.

01:14:55

So I think there's a way to go about it that's honoring to God. And I think even with some disagreements with your dad on this point,

01:15:03

I think he did that beautifully in the way that he kept relationships with people and the way he carried himself in those dialogues.

01:15:09

By the way, his interaction with Father Mitchell Pacwa, the listen to the seer of those debates were excellent.

01:15:15

And I thought that they were interesting. They were friendly, yet that debate was, it was jam -packed with some really strong arguments from both sides.

01:15:24

And they were able to do that in a way where, I don't hate you, we just differ. Let's talk about it. And I really appreciate that.

01:15:30

You gotta let people talk. You can't censor them. My father was way against censorship. And for example,

01:15:35

Father Pacwa was censored. He was censored when he went on the John Ankerberg show. They censored, when they aired them, they censored some of his words.

01:15:43

And we can't have that kind of attitude. We have to have the kind of attitude that we're gonna allow each other to be heard in the context of what we said.

01:15:52

And just encourage people to search it out. Search out the word of God and let each other talk.

01:15:58

And I think it's important. Come, let us reason. Very good. Well, let's wrap things up here for a couple of minutes, maybe like two minutes.

01:16:09

I think we might have just like two or three questions and a comment here. You can be the Bible answer woman for -

01:16:15

No, I'm not gonna do that. I'm not gonna do that. I'm not listening to you, but you know what I mean.

01:16:22

We don't, let's see, there's a comment here. Someone said, God used him, referring to your dad, when

01:16:28

I was in high school, trying to figure out if Mormonism really was the true church. My pastor gave me some cassettes of Dr.

01:16:34

Martin giving some lectures on Mormonism. I bet you lose count of how many testimonies of people receiving cassettes of your dad's teaching.

01:16:44

I do, I do lose count. And people will always say to me, you're probably really tired of hearing this.

01:16:49

You probably heard the same old story. And I never am tired of hearing how the word the

01:16:54

Lord did in my father's life touched another life for his kingdom. And it's like lighting, you know, each candle, lighting a flame, you know, and they continue to light the flame around them for the gospel of Jesus Christ from that one flame that started and it continues and it continues.

01:17:09

And that's God, that's God. And it's such an honor to be used by him. And I never get tired of hearing these stories of how

01:17:15

God brought them out of Mormonism or some other cult and into the true light of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

01:17:21

I never get tired of hearing it. Okay, awesome. Now here's a question that was retracted because you answered it earlier, but maybe you can address it again here.

01:17:30

Daniel said here, he was going to ask a question about how to be a good Christian father as someone without a

01:17:36

Christian father. But she basically answered it. Any expansions would be appreciated though. I mean, what does a good

01:17:43

Christian father look like and how did your dad exemplify that? Well, I think to always be willing to listen, to speak the truth again and love.

01:17:54

I think a lot of basic principles of how we conduct ourselves with each other, never failing to show the respect, the patience.

01:18:02

I think my dad was a pretty patient guy. When we were kids, I think we drove him insane sometimes, but I think it made him better.

01:18:10

I think early start. He was trying to secretly get your husband and your dad to debate.

01:18:17

Rick has a question. Yeah, I think the Lord really used it for his good. You know, when we were,

01:18:22

I have lots of funny stories in the book. I hope people will enjoy them, a lot of anecdotes, a lot of things that we put him through, a lot of fun stuff.

01:18:30

He was, I would just say, you know, the kind of dad that cares so much about your eternity, where you're going, that you keep eternity in mind and you teach your child in a real sense, not just in the

01:18:46

Bible stories and in the talks, but that you really bring life into it and really help them to see from their small little vantage point, you know, of their little world, you know, how

01:18:57

Jesus can make a difference in their life and bring that into them. Like one of the examples

01:19:02

I was told, you know, growing up was, you know, just, you know, giving to God and why offering is important.

01:19:09

You teach your little one, you know, when you give to God, what does he do? He gives it back to you, press down, shake and running over, you know, because God rewards our faithfulness and our obedience to him.

01:19:18

And when we give, you know, we give our offerings to our local churches or to a ministry,

01:19:25

God blesses that. I remember as a little girl, my mother saying, well, Cindy, do you want to, you know, do you want to give a dollar, you know, to Jesus?

01:19:31

And my father was exactly the same way. And so they incorporated those principles right into our lives.

01:19:36

And that's what, a father needs to be strong. He needs to be strong and bold for Jesus Christ, unafraid.

01:19:45

And he was like that. And yet be willing to be there to listen and to hear you out.

01:19:51

And even if he disagreed, he, there was not, you know, there was not anger toward that.

01:19:56

I think I frustrated the heck out of him trying to help him to understand how wrong he was that he wasn't a

01:20:03

Calvinist. So I really think that I about, you know, how much we're wrong.

01:20:09

Right, I mean, it's obvious. No, he did say, he did say something like that.

01:20:16

But no, no. He's a Calvinist now. He knows the truth, you know, he knows the truth.

01:20:24

So he, so we had a really big talk about that in a restaurant, one of the last times

01:20:31

I was with him. I know I really challenged him greatly, but he pressed on with me and loved me.

01:20:38

And we need to do that with our children. And he really did that with me. And I'm just, I'm really, really grateful for the time that I had with him.

01:20:45

He died when I was 28 years old. I wish I could have had decades more to love him and to be with him.

01:20:52

I still love him, but to be with him. But we have forever, we have forever. And I'm very blessed to have a father like that.

01:20:59

And I would encourage any father listening to be a father like that, because there's nothing more important than pointing them to Jesus Christ, you know, throughout their little lives in every way you can think of and to teach them the word of God and to memorize scripture, so.

01:21:14

Very good. All right, Cindy, this is the last question and then we'll wrap things up, right? You've done excellent so far and I really appreciate it.

01:21:21

Here's a follow -up question. How as Christians do we resist getting jealous of people who have done so much?

01:21:29

And in terms of skills, books, et cetera, for God. I suppose when you want to do a lot of things and you see other people doing more than you've done.

01:21:38

And so I guess perhaps feelings of jealousy might arise. How would someone deal with something like that? Well, I think that we're all called to a different place and space.

01:21:48

You know, we all have a different path that God has written before one of our days came to be like Psalm 139, all of your days were written before one of them came to be.

01:21:57

And God has, it's all special. We're all special when we belong to Jesus, when we're a child of God and he has cut and carved out our path and he's not gonna disappoint you.

01:22:09

I remember as a young mom thinking, oh my goodness, you know, my father has all these accomplishments and you know,

01:22:14

I've got these children and everything and I'm really thrilled and those are huge accomplishments and I love my family and my husband. And I felt like that was such a gift and a blessing but I thought, you know, what am

01:22:22

I gonna contribute, you know, in the way that my father contributed? And I remember feeling intimidated by that. I never felt a jealousy about it but I remember being challenged in a good way to, you know, share the gospel and do whatever

01:22:35

God puts on your plate to do, do it, run with it. And, you know, remember that it's a command from our commander in chief and he's going to, you never know how

01:22:46

God is going to use that work that he has done in you for his kingdom and which will be forever.

01:22:53

And so it's really an honor. So no matter what it is he's called you to do, just be faithful, just be faithful and do it.

01:23:01

And, you know, so throughout my life, you know, the Lord put on my heart to write a book called Rescue Me, which is a pro -life time travel novella for the unborn.

01:23:10

And it took me many years to get that book out but God eventually has my kids, finally when my kids were grown, he gave me the idea for it when my kids were little, when my kids were grown, it was

01:23:19

God's time and out went the book. And then God gave me some pro -life songs, you know, that he's used all over the world.

01:23:26

And just in my own small corner of the world, he began to show me, I have things for you to do, just in my time, do them.

01:23:33

And just even in writing this Bible Answer Man book, it was a difficult book to write. You know, Hank had gotten a cancer diagnosis and we didn't know we were going to have

01:23:40

Hank. My husband had, you know, his own health issues and had a major stroke right when

01:23:47

I, right close to when I was, you know, going to get the book out. And you get all these roadblocks thrown in the way and I've had people say to me,

01:23:54

I'll never know when I can possibly do this, that, or the other thing. Well, just rest in the Lord, leave it over to the

01:23:59

Lord, pray over your life and just say, God, you know, show me what it is that I can do in my little corner of the world and he will show you and be faithful and do it.

01:24:09

And it'll count for eternity. And there's nothing more important than doing the work of the

01:24:14

Lord that he's purposed and planned in advance for you to do. Well, thank you so much for that.

01:24:20

You did a fine job. This has been a very enjoyable conversation. And guys, I really do highly recommend the

01:24:26

Bible Answer Man by Cindy Martin Morgan. Excellent look into her father, just the family life, the ministry, and just the sort of guy that he was.

01:24:36

It was an excellent read and so I highly recommend it. Well, if you have not yet subscribed to Revealed Apologetics on YouTube, be sure to do that, hit the notification bell to know when upcoming videos are coming, interviews, discussions.

01:24:49

I'll be putting out a short, shorter videos addressing issues relating to presuppositional apologetics.

01:24:55

There's a video on the docket where I respond to some of the critics of the methodology. And so hopefully you guys will find that useful.

01:25:03

Well, if you have never heard of Dr. Walter Martin, get out from under the rock that you have been living under and go purchase

01:25:11

Kingdom of the Cults and check them out on YouTube. So much material. Thank you so much. I'm sorry?

01:25:17

The Bible Answer Man. And the book, The Bible Answer Man. I'm gonna say that the journey and the funny stories too,

01:25:24

I think you'll be blessed. I have to say before we end, I really do recommend that you guys get this book.

01:25:34

It was a joy to read. I mean, as I said before, I love to see the behind the scenes of someone like Dr.

01:25:43

Walter Martin. And after I put the book down, like I said, your dad had this gift of making me just wanna read the

01:25:49

Bible more. Hearing how he interacted with people. I'm like, you know, I need to read the word of God more.

01:25:54

And that's one of the reasons why I've enjoyed and benefited greatly from your father's ministry, but to be able to see it from the perspective that you present in the book with the personal stories, my faith, the toupee story.

01:26:05

Oh my goodness. I won't give it away, but I was, I woke up.

01:26:10

Probably one of the funniest ones. Yeah. I woke up at five in the morning to get my early reading on and I bursted out in laughter with,

01:26:18

I haven't even had my coffee yet. I still laugh when

01:26:24

I think of it. And also his funeral and the memorial service and his, I'll just leave it about his sister.

01:26:31

We share about his sister and just, it's the whole thing. God has a sense of humor.

01:26:37

That's all I can say. Yes, keep going. That's all I'm saying. If you read the book, you'll laugh, you'll cry, you'll be interested and you'll be challenged.

01:26:45

I mean, you know, that there are things in there that really strike a chord with everyone. Just reflecting on Walter Martin's impact and asking ourselves, what impact are we gonna have for the gospel and allowing

01:26:57

God to use us within the context. I mean, Daniel talking about getting jealous over people who don't, you know, you don't write as many books.

01:27:04

Well, what can you do now? In what ways can God use you where you are at? And who's to say that the point that you are in your life where you feel as though you're not as efficient with the things that you're doing at this moment, this is a time where God is preparing you.

01:27:20

And who knows the doors that will open up in the future. So don't waste your desert moments. You feel like you're kind of in these droughts.

01:27:27

Use that as time for preparation and that when the time comes, God will use you in the way that he chooses and you'll be ready.

01:27:33

So thank you so much, Cindy. I really do appreciate you taking the time and giving me one hour and 27 minutes of your time.

01:27:44

Oh my God. Thank you so much. And until next time guys, take care and God bless.