July 24, 2025 Show: Jeremiah Nortier vs. Jared K. Henry Debate on the Ordination of Women (Day 1 of 2)

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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

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Jim Thorpe. It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have an imbuing conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 24th day of July 2025.

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I just want to make a quick prayer request for the family of Terry Gene Bollea, more popularly known as Hulk Hogan.

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He passed away today. Thankfully, I've heard many reports, many convincing reports that he was indeed a born -again believer in Jesus Christ.

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Please pray for the surviving family members. He was 71 years old, a wake -up call for all of us of how fragile life can be, even with somebody of the physical stature of Hulk Hogan, who went on into eternity only seven years older than I am right now.

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But today, I am thrilled that we have the second debate on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio between the same two debating opponents.

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Today, we are going to be having a debate on a very vital theme that divides some of the body of Christ.

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The thesis is, Christians can be totally free from known sin in this life.

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And affirming that thesis is Nazarene Pastor Jared K.

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Henry, who is pastor of the Mackie Church of the

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Nazarene in Mackie, Indiana, whose website is mackienaz .org,

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M -A -C -K -E -Y -N -A -Z .org. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Jared K.

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Henry. Hello, Brother Chris, it's good to be with you and Brother Jeremiah again.

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Enjoyed our last couple of times together and looking forward to what the

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Lord might reveal to us and what we might learn in this time as well. Amen. And opposing the thesis is our friend,

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Pastor Jeremiah Nortier, a Reformed Baptist pastor. And he is the pastor of Twelve Five Church in Jonesboro, Arkansas.

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And the website for that congregation is twelvefivechurch .com.

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And that's the word twelve, the numeral five, the word church .com.

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And it's my honor and privilege also to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Jeremiah Nortier.

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Yes, thank you, Chris, for having me back on. I feel like a frequent guest now, so that's an honor.

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Yeah, it's an honor to always have you on. And as I said, this is the first day of the second debate that we had two weeks ago.

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We had a debate on the ordination of women, where the

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Nazarene pastor, Jared K. Henry, affirmed the thesis that women can be ordained into positions of leadership over men in Christ's church.

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And Pastor Jeremiah Nortier, the Reformed Baptist, opposed or denied that thesis. And today we are beginning day one of a two -day debate on the theme that I already mentioned earlier, which is

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Christians can be totally free from known sin in this life, where Pastor Jared K.

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Henry, the Nazarene, is affirming the thesis, and Jeremiah Nortier, the

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Reformed Baptist, is denying the thesis. And we're going to begin the program, the debate, with a 10 -minute opening statement by each of our debaters.

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And since Jared K. Henry is once again affirming the debate thesis, we are going to have him begin with his 10 -minute opening statement.

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And you may begin now, brother. All right, thank you, and I want to thank all the listeners for tuning in today.

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And hopefully, I just want to, the thesis again is, can Christians be totally free from known sin in this life?

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And I want to make sure to clarify a few things in terms of definition and in terms of intent that I'm really arguing for just simply the possibility that someone who has been born again can be totally free from known, conscious, willful sin in this life, all right?

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So I want to define sin because sin has very broad definitions, and I want to be really specific.

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So when we talk about sin, we can talk about acts of sin, we can talk about sin of omission, we can talk about a lot of different things.

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But I want to just define first with James chapter four, verse 17, so whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it for him, it is sin, all right?

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First John chapter three, verse four says, everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness.

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Sin is lawlessness. So sin in its sinful nature is really an attitude of rebellion toward the will of God.

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I'm not arguing that a Christian cannot sin or somehow loses the ability to sin.

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I'm rather arguing that they can experience real freedom played out in their life to consistently choose the will of God over temptation, all right?

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First John chapter one will probably be referenced maybe more than once, but it says in verse five, this is the message we heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light and in him is no darkness at all.

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If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth, all right?

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So he's saying, you know, you have fellowship with him while you walk in darkness. So there's a practical living out there that if you say you have fellowship with him, but you are walking in darkness, living out this rebellion, this sin, then you lie and don't practice the truth.

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He goes on to say, verse seven, now a brother Jeremiah might like this verse, but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus his son cleanses us from all sin.

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Praise God. It goes on to say in verse eight, if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

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If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

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Verse 10, if we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar and his word is not in us. All right.

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So there's a lot going on there. But he's talking about the first part, the practicality of this is what it means, that then talking about our salvation before we know

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Christ, if we cannot acknowledge that we have a sin problem and we are all born in sin,

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I think we agree there, we have a sinful nature, we are born with, we are a fallen people, we believe in depravity, all of those kinds of things.

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But those kinds of things need not continue to rule our lives. So we've also got to differentiate between sin and human limitations.

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All right. We're not talking about human frailties or mistake. You're not talking about miscommunications or misunderstandings or me telling my wife calls me and says, hey, on your way home, could you pick up some egg and milk?

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And I stop at the grocery store. I see somebody that I know and I get to talking with them and I have milk, but I forget the eggs.

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And I get home and my wife says, you lied to me. You said you would get those eggs. That's human frailty.

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That's human mistake. There was not an intent to deceive. There was human frailty.

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So I'm not talking about those kinds of things, those things you can make an argument that that falling beneath the glory of God, I'll give you that.

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That's not what we're talking about. We've also got to differentiate between sin and temptation.

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A lot of folks that I pastor and that I minister to have a hard time understanding the difference between being tempted and recognizing that just simply being tempted with something doesn't mean that you have sin.

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So you might have a thought that is a temptation to dwell on or to do something.

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That doesn't mean you've sinned. It means, Paul says, take every thought captive, take that thing captive, resist that, bring it into submission to the lordship of Jesus Christ.

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So I also reject this. I don't like the vocabulary sometimes of of this idea of sinless perfection.

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All right. We might talk about perfection, Christian perfection. I would I would rather call something like that.

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But I don't know that that's really the debate. But this idea that in every conceivable notion or definition of sin, that somehow you as a human being in the physical, you can somehow overcome all those.

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So you could overcome misunderstandings or unintentional sins and somehow those kinds of things.

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I think maturity can help in that area. Growth can help in that area. But we're not we're not saying that.

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So we're not saying that you can live above anything, anything short of the glory of God.

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I'm specifically talking about. So let me say it as clear as I can to be totally free from known sin in this life is by God's grace to not willingly and purposely and deliberately violate

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God's will that you are aware of. So it's difficult for me to believe that a

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God in light of that, it's difficult for me to believe that a God who is holy and hates sin and has given his son

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Jesus to remedy the issue of sin would not provide for our freedom and deliverance and victory over sin that we might have unfettered relationship and fellowship with him.

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So I believe God's grace is greater than our sin so we can experience forgiveness.

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But I also believe that it's greater than even the sinful nature, so that by the power of the

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Holy Spirit, empowering our volitional ability to choose, we can choose righteousness by the power of the

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Holy Spirit. So if we label someone righteous or holy, but they're not living righteously or holy, then we're really just kind of labeling hypocrisy something that that sounds good, but isn't isn't really good.

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I believe Jesus' death and resurrection saves us from the penalty and the power of sin in this life.

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Again, to clarify, I'm not talking about unintentional sin. And I think that there's a relational component to our salvation, not just a legal component, and that when we love the

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Lord our God with all of our heart, soul, mind and strength, that that can't help but add to our desire.

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And that, coupled with the Spirit's power in our life, help us to live in freedom rather than continue bondage.

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So I think if it's compatible with sainthood to continue in daily, regular, willful sin and there's no other provision to be made, then we're not any better off under grace than we are under the law.

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And I think grace is greater and makes not just a, quote, label difference or a only some kind of like eternal difference, but it also makes a difference in this life that's practical in the way that Christians live.

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So, again, to be totally free from known sin in this life is by God's grace, the power of the Holy Spirit, to not willingly, purposely, deliberately violate

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God's known will in our life. You do have about 90 seconds left.

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I'll secede that to questions or whatever. OK, and now we have

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Jeremiah Nortier is going to provide his 10 -minute opening to refute the thesis.

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You may begin. Thanks so much, Chris. I want to reread the question, the thesis that we're debating.

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Can Christians be totally free from known sin in this life?

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I believe scripture is very complete and very crystal clear that this is not possible.

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No, this cannot happen in this life. This is something that is promised that we can obtain in the life to come.

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And so my number one beef, if you will, with this is I think Jared is advocating for something that only belongs in a believer's glorification.

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And I think the sales pitch in the Nazarene church is, oh, no, God's grace is so great and the

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Holy Spirit is so powerful that you can obtain a kind of perfection this side of glory.

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And so a lot of what I want to contend for is a consistency of learning the distinctions between justification, sanctification and glorification.

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And I want to see how it relates, because I do believe salvation is a process, but only in this way.

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There is a sense in which we have been saved, justified. There's a sense that we're being saved.

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That's our sanctification. And then there's a sense in which we will be saved free from the presence of sin altogether.

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Now, that only belongs in a believer's glorification. So Jared was right to kind of preemptively bring up 1

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John chapter one, because when we read, can Christians be totally free from known sin in this life? John warns his readers of this very mindset.

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He says, if we as Christian little children say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves.

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And so, I mean, obviously 1 John chapter one has a context. And I do think the one who is truly born again continues to walk in the light perfectly.

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No, but we practice righteousness. That's what 1 John goes on to say. And the wicked, those who are not born again, they practice unrighteousness.

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They practice wickedness. And so we'll get into more of the context of 1 John probably with this.

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But I want to say there is a level of deception if you believe that you can be free from all known sin.

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Now, it's not just a semantics of different labels. No, this is really important because I want us to dip into the book of Romans.

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In this life, we had this meat suit. We have flesh. And there is a power of sin or, as Paul says, a namas, a law of sin that is in this corrupted flesh.

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And so as long as we have this flesh, the Christian who is mature in the faith is going to make war.

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So if you have your copy of God's word, I want to ask you to turn with me to Romans six, verse 22, because I think fundamentally what's wrong with the

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Derek position is a misunderstanding of sanctification. So I want us to define terms.

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I want us to examine context. I want us to be consistent. And so in Romans six, 22, I want to highlight these three terms justification, sanctification and glorification.

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Paul says, but now that you have been free, that you have been set free from sin, have become slaves of God.

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The fruit you get leads to sanctification and it's in eternal life.

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Now, Paul has been building a case in Romans three, four and five for a believer's justification.

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So this is kind of major point number one. But now that you have been set free from sin,

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I believe this firstly begins forensically, judicially before God, that a believer is freed from the penalty of sin at the moment of faith.

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This is something that I think me and Jared strongly agree with. Romans three, four and five find this culmination in five verse one that says, therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God.

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Through our Lord Jesus Christ. And so here in a moment where we talk about, well, I can't be totally free in all every respect from every known sin in this life, man,

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I feel like God would provide a way for that. I want to say when you are justified by faith apart from works, the apostle

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Paul says you can have peace. And so even though we live in this world where sin exists all around us and it still has a principle in our fleshly members, the mature saint, as we're going to look at, can still find peace in the promises of God, still can find a blessed hope in our

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Lord's return to restore all things. And he will make us perfect then as he is perfect.

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And so I just want to remind our audience, Romans 6, 22, I believe he outlined our justification, but now you have been set free from sin in our justification.

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And he also reminded us we are no longer slaves to sin, but we are slaves to God.

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What he talks about is the child of God that is justified by faith in a child of God.

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We are now free to choose righteousness. We do not have to continually be bound by sin continually.

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Think about the unregenerate soul can only sin continually. Romans 14 later says whatever is not done in faith is sin.

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And so the unbeliever, the unregenerate can only sin. Their master is Satan. Their master is sin.

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But at the moment of faith, we are now free to serve our king. But listen to me, not perfectly in this life, even though we receive the indwelling

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Holy Spirit, who is our guarantee, that promise to seal us to the day of redemption, we now are going to war against that power of sin and our members unto the next life.

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And so it kind of brings us into major point number two. I'll read the verse again. But now that you have been set free from sin and become slaves to God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification.

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I think this is the crux of the issue. So if we look at sanctification, hagiasmos in the

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Greek, this is the process of becoming more and more holy. Romans 8 says this is becoming more into the conformed, more into the image of Christ and becoming less and less like the world.

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I believe Romans 6 and 7 depict the believers sanctification.

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When you look back at Romans 6, verse 12, Paul gives a command to believers who have been justified and freed from the penalty of sin.

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Let not sin therefore reign in your moral body to make you obey its passions.

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Well, there's still a principle of sin in our members, but we now are free to war against it and to have temporal victories.

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Those victories are not perfect, not in this sin -cursed life where the devil still runs wild and still has the whole world in his lap.

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Paul goes on in Romans chapter 7. He talks about his own conversion in verse 9,

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I believe. And then he goes on to say this in Romans 7, verse 18.

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He says, For now, I know nothing good dwells in me that is in my flesh, for I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.

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I think this is a major slam towards Jared's position because Paul is not an immature believer here.

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In fact, I would argue the opposite. Paul is a mature saint that has conviction of his sin and his inability to be perfectly holy and right before God.

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Why is that? Well, he tells us later here in verse 24, Oh, wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from this body of death?

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All believers, when we still have this sin -cursed body, we make war against sin.

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And so are you going to be freed from all known sin or unknown sin in this life? It is impossible because the power of sin still exists in this fleshly body.

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OK, this is the whole point of sanctification. We're warring against the flesh. We desire to choose righteousness.

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And when we do sin, it should break our hearts. We back up in Romans 7. Paul says,

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For I delight in the law of God and in my inner being. This isn't Paul as a Pharisee. He's not talking about the unconverted.

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He is actually talking about someone who is regenerate and desires to obey God with their life.

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But what's going to happen is we're going to stumble. We're not going to stumble away, but we will stumble into sin.

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But we have an advocate. Romans 8 goes on to say, Not only in Christ Jesus, but the Holy Spirit also seeds on our behalf.

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That's what 1 John goes on to say. For I delight in the law of God and my inner being. That which is transformed, renewed, regenerated, and the

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Holy Spirit indwells us. But it goes on to say, But I see in my members, his flesh, another namas, another power, another principle, waging war against the law of my mind.

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So Paul knows that you can have victory. He closes out Romans 7 and verse 25. Thanks be to God through our

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Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. He goes into Romans 8, not as an even more mature saint, but continuing to be a mature saint in this life of saying,

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Oh, but there's victory in Christ. He is a perfect mediator that I can confess my sin to. And he is perfectly just to always intercede on my behalf.

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And so lastly, point number three, going back to Romans 6, 22, the fruit that you get that leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.

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I believe Paul is setting up his audience to realize, yes, sanctification is an ongoing process.

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You will never reach its goal and its completion in this life. But just wait, because one day

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Jesus Christ will return and he will resurrect us with new bodies fit for all eternity.

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This is what he says in Romans chapter eight. But I consider that the sufferings in this life, in this present time, in this lifetime are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.

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And so complete sanctification can only be achieved in the life to come in glory. And so please don't fall into the lie that we can somehow achieve that now.

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Thanks so much, Chris. And that was 10 minutes on the button. And we are going to our first commercial break.

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When we return, each of our debating opponents will have eight minutes each to rebut the statements of the other debater.

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And we will once again begin with the Nazarene pastor, Jared K. Henry. And you may want to submit a question for either of our debaters, because we might, and I emphasize the word might, have room or time at the end of the debate today.

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That's day number one of the two -day debate we are conducting. We might have time at the end to read a couple of questions, hopefully one for each debater, but we can't guarantee that.

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But you might want to submit a question to chrisarnson at gmail dot com. Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence, and make sure you identify the person to whom the question is being asked.

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And we are going to our commercial break now, so don't go away. We'll be right back.

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James White here of Alpha and Omega Ministries announcing that this September I'm heading out to Pennsylvania to speak at two events that my longtime friend

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Chris Arnzen has lined up for me. On Thursday, September 18th at 11 a .m.,

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I'm speaking to men in ministry leadership at Chris's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastor's Luncheon at Church of the

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Living Christ in Loisville. Then on Sunday, September 21st at 1 .30

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p .m., I'm speaking at Trinity Reformed Baptist Church of Carlisle on the theme, Can We Trust the

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Bible is the Authentic and Inherent Word of God? I hope you can join Chris and me for both events.

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For more details on the free pastor's luncheon, visit Iron Sharpens Iron Radio dot com.

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That's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio dot com. For more details on Trinity Reformed Baptist Church of Carlisle, visit

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TRBC Carlisle dot org. That's TRBC Carlisle dot org.

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God willing, I'll see you in September in Pennsylvania for these exciting events. CEO and president of Lebanon Phil Credit Union, we're excited to be part of the

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I'm Simon O'Mahoney, pastor of Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

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Originally from Cork, Ireland, the Lord and His Sovereign Providence has called me to shepherd this new and growing congregation here in Cumberland County.

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At TRBC, we joyfully uphold the Second London Baptist Confession. We embrace congregational church government and we are committed to preaching the full counsel of God's Word for the edification of believers, the salvation of the lost and the glory of our triune

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God. We are also devoted to living out the one another commands of Scripture, loving, encouraging and serving each other as the body of Christ.

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In our worship, we sing psalms and the great hymns of the faith, and we gather around the Lord's table every

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Sunday. We would love for you to visit and worship with us. You can find our details at trbccarlisle .org.

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That's trbccarlisle .org. God willing, we'll see you soon.

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We're now back with day number one of our two day debate on the theme,

36:51

Christians can be totally free from known sin in this life.

36:57

And we have Jared K. Henry, a Nazarene pastor, affirming that thesis statement.

37:03

And we have Jeremiah Nortier, a Reformed Baptist pastor, denying or opposing that statement.

37:11

And we are now reaching the point where each of our debaters have eight minutes to rebut what the other debater has said previously.

37:22

And we will begin by an eight minute rebuttal by Nazarene pastor Jared K. Henry. And you may begin, brother.

37:31

Thank you. I will just start by saying that, again, the thesis that we're talking about is, can

37:39

Christians be totally free from known sin in this life? Now, a brother has already kind of like changed the goalpost here.

37:47

He wants to talk about perfection. We could debate that. He wants to talk about sanctification.

37:53

We could debate that. But we're debating known sin in the life of a believer in this life.

38:00

So, in other words, he's advocating that we cannot help but continue to live in sin.

38:08

That's a practical, the thesis practically is that we can be free from this known willful sin that we choose to do.

38:17

All right. That's what I'm saying. But Jeremiah is having to argue the opposite, saying, no, no, you can be forgiven for sins, but you can't really live any differently than the lost.

38:29

And tries to make it out like about sanctification, about being in heaven one day and those kind of things. That's not what we're talking about.

38:35

We're talking about practical living today. So you have to ultimately argue for consistent, regular sin in believer's life.

38:46

In other words, we must sin. That's what we're saying. If we don't believe that God's grace is sufficient, the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross and his resurrection is not able in this life to empower us to consistently choose the will of God over sin.

39:07

So part of the issue is temptation. It means that temptation is greater than God's grace in our life.

39:14

It's greater than the work of regeneration in our life so that we can choose the Lord and his will as well.

39:20

Let me make reference to some scriptures that Jeremiah has read.

39:27

Romans chapter six, for example, chapter seven, I think he references as well. And this kind of goes, we talked about this in an earlier debate, is context.

39:36

Context is always key. You've got to take the full context here. And Paul in Romans chapter six and chapter seven is sharing with you the testimony.

39:49

He's moving through, not always linearly, but he's moving through. This is what it means.

39:55

This is who I was before. This is what God has done for me. And so what happens is when you stop in chapter seven, for example, he did make a reference, let me bring it up here, chapter seven at the end, he talks about verse twenty -two, we'll start verse twenty -two, it says,

40:12

For I delight in the law of God and my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.

40:24

Now, that's that's what Jeremiah would say. Yeah, that's the standard Christian experience.

40:30

But while he read the next verse, he didn't he didn't dwell there or move on. Verse twenty -four,

40:37

Wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from this body of death? Jeremiah noted, hey, we are wrapped in this thing called flesh.

40:44

I agree. And that flesh, more than the physical fleshness, has to do with our fallen nature and a sinfulness that is inherent in us.

40:56

And Paul is saying, verse twenty -four, I know that I'm wretched. Who's going to deliver me from this body of death?

41:01

He answers a long question in verse twenty -five. Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ, our Lord. So then

41:07

I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh, I serve the law of sin. Now, the chapters

41:14

I'm putting in after the fact, let's read on into chapter eight. There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

41:23

Here's key verse two of chapter eight. For the law of the spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.

41:35

For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, there's the flesh that Jeremiah was talking about, could not do by sending his own son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not according to the flesh.

41:57

We might be in the flesh, but we don't have to walk according to the flesh. But according to the spirit, verse five, for those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the spirit set their mind on the things of the spirit for to set the mind on the flesh is death.

42:21

I agree with Jeremiah there, but to set the mind on the spirit is life and peace for the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God.

42:32

That's what I'm saying. There are people who live in that hostile relationship to God for does not submit to God's law.

42:37

Indeed, it cannot. That's what Jeremiah is talking about. But verse eight, those who are in the flesh cannot please

42:44

God. And then verse nine again. Good news again. You, however, you're not in the flesh, but in the spirit.

42:50

If in fact the spirit of God dwells in you, anyone who does not have the spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

42:57

All right. So simply put, yes, I agree with Jeremiah that the flesh is a problem.

43:04

What I don't agree with Jeremiah is, is that the spirit is unable to remedy the problem of the flesh that keeps us bound.

43:14

This is a very important distinguishing factor. Yes, Paul tells us in chapter six, in chapter seven, he tells us, yes, this is the way my life used to be.

43:26

Yes. Even as I began to walk with the Lord, I had this struggle. But thanks be to God that we can live according to the spirit.

43:35

We don't have to be focused on the flesh. In fact, he even gives context in the first part of Romans, chapter six, verse six and seven.

43:41

He says, we know here he sets it all up and then tells his own testimony. We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing so that we know we would no longer be enslaved in an ongoing way to sin.

44:01

For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now, is he talking about physical death?

44:06

No, he's talking about crucifying the flesh. All right. Paul says, I crucify daily.

44:13

I'm crucified with Christ, nevertheless, not I who live, but Christ who lives within me. This when we talk about living in freedom, when we talk about freedom from known willful sin, we're not talking about individual humans who are tough enough, strong enough, smart enough, talented enough to do it.

44:32

We're talking about people who have concentrated their lives to Christ and allow the spirit to be the focus and the filling of their life so that they're not focused on the flesh, but on the spirit.

44:46

I'm simply arguing for the possibility that God's grace and his

44:53

Holy Spirit is greater than the sinful flesh. And I would agree with Paul.

44:59

And you have 40 seconds. I'll secede that to questions or whatever.

45:05

OK, and now Jeremiah Nortier is going to have his eight minute rebuttal session and you may begin.

45:16

Thanks so much. Yep, let's dive right in. You said we're not talking about sanctification.

45:21

Oh, confrere, Jared, we are talking about a lot that overlaps in the life of the Christian. When we when you posit that we possibly can be freed from all known sin, you are talking about the sanctified life of the believer.

45:36

Interesting how you quoted from Romans six. That's all about the fruit that leads to sanctification.

45:42

You better believe we're going to get into this. And I'm going to ask you in a little bit if you can love God perfectly and love your neighbor perfectly, because if you're not, then you're not freed from that known sin.

45:53

So I want you to understand that perfection and sanctification relates the topic that you are defending, that a believer in this life can be freed from all known sin.

46:01

We're going to get right into the realm of perfection and sanctification. You better believe it. Now, you said

46:08

Jeremiah makes it out that believers basically live no differently than the unregenerate, the unregenerate

46:16

Jared only choose sin continually. Romans 14 says whatever is not done in faith is sin.

46:25

And so I am saying the exact opposite. Those whom the son has set free from the bondage of sin now can live to the glory of God and choose righteousness.

46:36

Where me and you differ is I don't think that can be perfectly done when you say freed from all known sin.

46:42

I'm saying not perfectly. We can have temporal victories in this life, but that's not a perfect victory.

46:49

And so we're going to really press into this on logical consistency. When you talk about context, my goodness, you use probably my favorite word.

47:00

Because Romans 7, Paul is identifying with his walk, warring against the flesh.

47:06

Now, I'm glad you don't take the perspective that this is him as a Pharisee or something as he's an unconverted person.

47:13

But he is talking. Let's go back to the verse that you said, pride, delight in the law of God, in my inner being.

47:20

OK, we understand that the saint is regenerated. We have a new spirit that lives within us.

47:26

But I see in my members another law, waging war against the law of my mind, making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.

47:36

Jared, this is a man that is convicted of sin and he feels his inability to fulfill the law of God, the way that God ought to be worshiped in this life.

47:48

This is a man that says, wretched man that I am. You know, Jared, we are to live as Christ in this life.

47:54

Now, you think that can be perfectly obtained. I do not. I think it's an ongoing battle between the spirit and the flesh.

48:01

But to die is gain. And so what gives me hope in this life?

48:07

What gave the apostle Paul hope in this life is our future blessed hope that we will not remain in this wretched flesh.

48:14

I did reference verse 25. What fueled Paul's tank when he was convicted over a sin? Well, he rejoiced that his savior paid the full penalty of his sin by dying on the cross and he puts his faith alone in him.

48:25

And he has given us the spirit to wage war against the flesh.

48:30

I really think you're reading your presuppositions and your theology into the opening verses of Romans chapter eight.

48:35

Let's try this again. There is therefore now no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus. This is a legal term, right?

48:42

Why is there no condemnation over the account of believers that still have this meat suit? It's because we've been justified by faith apart from works because of what

48:52

Christ has done. Verse two, for the law, the spirit of life has set us free.

48:57

How, Jared? Well, we are no longer slaves to sin. We can actually war against it.

49:04

That principle is still in our flesh. There is still a power of sin, but we can fight against it now.

49:10

We not we no longer can only choose sin continually like the unregenerate.

49:15

We have been given the spirit of life. And so, yes, we are victorious here and now, but not perfectly.

49:23

We do practice righteousness. We do set our mind on the things of above, but we will give in to temptation.

49:31

We will give in to sin at times because we are in the process of sanctification.

49:38

And I just want to let you know, that's what Paul said back in Romans six. This is the ongoing life of the believer.

49:44

And so when you say we are freed from all known sin, I'm curious, do you think that means you can be perfectly sanctified in this life?

49:54

Because if you say yes, then you are totally disregarding what Paul says later in Romans eight.

50:00

I was off for context when you were reading all the way through verse eight that says those who are in the flesh cannot please

50:06

God. I'm like, yes, when we are born of the spirit, we can now pursue righteousness. But keep reading,

50:12

Jared, because something awaits for believers in glory. And it's in glory.

50:18

There's not going to be the possibility of sinning. We are going to have new resurrected bodies.

50:23

We're not going to have any external temptations to sin. And so the point of glorification is the presence of sin will be no more.

50:33

We will have new bodies that no longer are cursed by the principle of sin.

50:38

I'm glad you're contending for context because that's what I want us to do also. But I want the audience to realize what

50:44

Jared and I think the Nazarene church is trying to sell you is something that the spirit brings us to in glorification.

50:53

We're not going to experience that in this life. Why? Because the presence of sin still exists externally in the world, along with the temptation and wiles of the devil.

51:04

But the power of sin still reigns in our members. But if you have the spirit, then you can war against it.

51:12

This is what awaits us in verse 18 of chapter eight. For I consider that the sufferings of this present time.

51:20

I just want to pause. So the debate is this life, right? What Paul says, this present evil age, you're never going to escape all known sin.

51:31

You're not going to obtain a level of perfection to love God and to love neighbor. It's not possible.

51:36

It's something that Paul goes on to say. It's not worth comparing with what the glory that is to be revealed to us.

51:44

And so he goes on to say the creation waits eagerly, longing for the revealing of the sons of God, for the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly because but because of him who subjected it in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage, the curse of sin and the bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

52:08

He goes on to say, and not only the creation, but we ourselves who have the first fruits of the spirit or pause.

52:17

Yes, we have the Holy Spirit here and now. Right. Has transformed our inner being. But first,

52:22

Corinthians chapter 15 says we will have spiritual bondage, meaning the Holy Spirit will control us fully inside and out.

52:31

And there will be no possibility of sin. I think what gives away the fact that Jared's position is wrong is here in a little bit,

52:39

I'm going to ask him if it's possible for him to sin. Probably going to appeal to some libertarian free will principle.

52:45

And I'm going to say, look, if it's possible for you to sin, then you are not perfect. You're not totally controlled by the spirit that's promised for us and glory.

52:54

He says the first fruits of the spirit grown inwardly as we wait eagerly for the adoption of sons, the redemption of our bodies.

53:04

And so, yes, we need we need to be delivered not only judicially for our justification from our sin, but we need to be saved from the power of sin that reigns in this fleshly body.

53:16

Thanks so much. Thank you, Tim. Eight minutes on the dot again right on time.

53:23

We are going to our midway commercial break. So we look forward to having the remainder of our debate during the second half of Iron Sharpens Iron radio today.

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Welcome back. Before I return to our debate, which is day one of the two -day debate, which will conclude tomorrow,

01:06:32

Friday the 25th of July, on the theme, Christians can be totally free from known sin in this life, between Nazarene Pastor Jared K.

01:06:44

Henry, who affirms the thesis, and Reformed Baptist Pastor Jeremiah Nortier, who denies the thesis.

01:06:53

And we will be resuming day one of this exciting debate after some reminders.

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01:10:13

I need a church in the subject line. And that's also the email address where you can submit a question to our debaters today.

01:10:20

And if we have time at the end, we will try to read at least one for each debater.

01:10:28

That's chrisarnson at gmail dot com. Give us a first name at least, city and state and country of residence.

01:10:33

And remember to identify the individual to whom the question is intended.

01:10:39

And now we have reached the favorite part of any debate that I have orchestrated and hosted.

01:10:47

And that is the cross -examination session. And each debater will have 12 minutes to ask questions of the other debater.

01:10:58

And remember, the person asking questions is only supposed to ask questions, not to give speeches.

01:11:07

And the person answering questions is not to ask questions of their own unless they are just clarifying something like, what did you mean by that?

01:11:15

Can you repeat that? Et cetera. And they are also not to give long speeches as answers. We're going to reverse orders as we did the last time.

01:11:26

We're going to start with Jeremiah Nortier, the Reformed Baptist, who is opposing our thesis today.

01:11:33

Christians can be totally free from known sin in this life. And he may begin with 12 minutes of cross -examining

01:11:40

Pastor Jared K. Henry, the Nazarene. And you may begin now,

01:11:45

Pastor Jeremiah Nortier. Thank you, Chris. All right, Jared, I've been dying to ask you this.

01:11:52

Would you say that you are freed from all known sin in this life right now? As I walk in the power of the

01:12:00

Spirit, I can be free from known sin, yes. So John Wesley taught that if you are freed from all known sin, willful sin, voluntary sin, he said that you now have a perfect love towards God and a perfect love towards neighbor.

01:12:17

Would you agree with him at that point? Yeah, I think maybe you could clarify your definition of perfect there.

01:12:25

But I would say yes, according to John Wesley's definition. Yeah, my understanding of John Wesley was to love

01:12:34

God, free from any mixture of sin. But he can fulfill the command to love

01:12:43

God and love neighbor perfectly, meaning no mixture of sin, freed from all known sin.

01:12:49

To love your neighbor as yourself, yeah. I think perfect, you're using the word perfect, that's often misunderstood because the

01:12:56

Bible word for perfect is teleos, and it means complete. It doesn't mean like an absolutist kind of perfection.

01:13:03

So with that caveat, I would say, yeah, I think you can love your neighbor as yourself and you can love the

01:13:08

Lord with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. Perfectly, right? The way we just find it. Biblically, yeah.

01:13:15

Biblically, amen. Amen, brother. Okay. Matthew 5, 48, in the Sermon on the

01:13:20

Mount, Jesus said, Therefore you shall be perfect. We got this word teleos like we're talking about.

01:13:26

Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. My question is, who is the standard of perfection in this particular verse?

01:13:38

Father. Father? Is it possible for God the Father to sin?

01:13:45

It is not. Okay, now you affirmed John Wesley's understanding of perfection, just to love

01:13:52

God, to fulfill the command to love God, love neighbor. Is it, since you're in this, okay, let me ask you this.

01:13:58

Would you say since you're free from all known sin that you are perfectly sanctified or completely sanctified or entirely sanctified?

01:14:07

I think, I think entire sanctification is the means by which the Spirit fills you.

01:14:13

Are you at that level? Sanctified. I would, yeah, I've testified to the fact that God has sanctified my heart.

01:14:20

Yeah, right. And yeah, but entirely. So I want to emphasize that. Is it, since you are entirely sanctified and you say that you, according to John Wesley, perfectly love

01:14:31

God and love neighbor, is it still possible for you to sin in this life?

01:14:38

Yes. I've never advocated for the loss of ability to disobey.

01:14:47

Right. So help me out a little bit with this because you are in a kind of state, an entire sanctified state, a loving perfection,

01:14:58

I would say. How is it possible for you to have kind of this perfect love for God and neighbor, but also still have the ability to choose to disobey and sin?

01:15:12

I'm sorry, repeat that question. How can you love your neighbor and still sin? How can you be in a state of perfect love and still choose to sin?

01:15:21

Okay. Yeah, so I think that you can perfectly love someone and still have airs of judgment.

01:15:33

You can, you could still choose to do something wrong, though you love someone with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength.

01:15:39

I think the closest example to that would be pre -fall. I think

01:15:45

Adam and Eve had a loving relationship with God. I would say that they loved him with all their heart. And yet when tempted, they gave in to that temptation.

01:15:53

So I think that there's still temptation, even when you love the

01:16:00

Lord with all your heart. Do you think believers will be perfect in their love for one another and God when they are glorified one day in the future in the next life?

01:16:15

I don't think death will do that work. I think that that's the work of the

01:16:20

Spirit in our lives to cleanse our hearts and purify our hearts.

01:16:27

Jesus said, you know, the pure in heart will see God. And so I think that, so yes, when

01:16:33

God does that, the Spirit does that in our life, that yes, that will continue when we're in heaven.

01:16:39

Okay, but will it be possible for believers to choose to sin and disobey in glory?

01:16:47

Well, I think that's a different question than we're talking about. It is a different, it's the next question. Yeah, but I think it's a different question.

01:16:54

Our question is about this life. Hold on, we're talking about this life. Hold on,

01:16:59

I got a question because we are talking about this life. I'm asking for consistency for the next life. I want to see what changes and what stays the same.

01:17:07

So will it be possible to choose to sin in a loving, perfect community?

01:17:13

Is it possible in the next life to choose to sin? Well, it's not just about the loving community.

01:17:18

I think there's a number of factors. Satan will be banished, praise be to God. I think that our bodies, maybe this is what you're alluding to, our bodies will be glorified.

01:17:27

So 1 Corinthians chapter 15 talks about, you know, the mortal takes on immortality. So all of the stalings of our body.

01:17:38

I think it's possible to sin. In glory? Oh, well,

01:17:44

I mean, Satan sinned in glory. I can't tell you that. I don't know that, I don't know. I don't know why anybody would want to.

01:17:51

Okay, but you're saying it's possible in glory to sin. Or you don't know? I'm saying

01:17:56

I don't know for sure. I guess we'll know when we get there. Well, let me ask you this. Revelation 21, is that about the new heavens and the new earth?

01:18:07

Let me bring that up here. What part of it are you referring to?

01:18:15

Is the chapter about the new heavens and the new earth? It looks like it, yes.

01:18:22

All right, look down at verse 27 that says, but nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the

01:18:34

Lamb's book of life. Does that sound like a possibility to you of sinning? It says nobody who is unclean will enter, or who does what is detestable or false.

01:18:46

Yeah, I'm not refuting that. I'm simply saying. You said you didn't know. I'm asking, does that clear it up for you?

01:18:53

I mean, are you saying that Satan didn't sin in heaven? He wasn't thrown out? Yes, but that was not the new heavens and new earth.

01:19:02

He was in glory, what we will experience in the future, right? No, he wasn't.

01:19:09

He won't be there for sure. Okay, so are you still unsure if we'll be able to sin in glory? I will just tell you this.

01:19:17

I don't intend to sin in glory. I don't know if it's possible. I don't know if it's possible.

01:19:22

Okay, so you're feeding anyone who does not do what is detestable. You say that may mean they can still sin in a state of perfection and glory.

01:19:31

You're just not sure. No, no, no. I'm saying that I agree with that. Yeah, I agree with that verse because it says you can't enter.

01:19:47

Yeah, I agree with it. Okay, so you believe that in the new heavens and new earth, no one will do what is detestable, i .e.

01:19:57

sin. It says no one will ever enter it who does what is detestable.

01:20:05

I agree with that. That's a problem for you, not for me. You're the one that says we can still sin. I don't think we can sin in glory.

01:20:13

No, not in glory. It says to enter it. Yes, we're going to enter in glory, right? You don't think this is referring to glory, the new heavens and new earth?

01:20:24

It's talking about entering into. Nothing unclean will get into the new heaven and new earth.

01:20:31

All right, thanks, Jerry. It's about entrance. That's what I'm talking about. I appreciate it. I appreciate you trying to clear that up for us.

01:20:39

So, does perfect love for your neighbor include not saying anything evil towards them? Yeah, anything that would be, yeah.

01:20:49

Right. So, James 3 .2 says, for we all stumble in many ways, and if anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man.

01:20:55

Are you a perfect man right now since you have achieved entire sanctification?

01:21:03

Well, I think, again, you're using perfect in a lot of variations there.

01:21:09

Okay, but in James? I wouldn't say that my heart is perfect. I would say that my heart is perfect because of what the

01:21:17

Spirit has done in my heart. But is my performance perfect? No. And I'm not arguing for that.

01:21:23

I'm arguing from totally different. But known intent. Known intentional sin. Yes. I will tell you,

01:21:29

I am not intentionally, willfully going against the will of God. You're perfect in that regard, right?

01:21:36

My heart is perfect. There you go. Because of what the Spirit has done. James 3 .8 says, no human being can tame the tongue.

01:21:43

It's a restless evil full of deadly poison. So, right now, have you perfectly tamed your tongue? Well, in terms of intentionality.

01:21:53

You're perfect. You've got it tamed, right? I'm saying I don't intentionally do things.

01:21:58

But, yes, there are misunderstandings. I alluded to this already as well. That's not what I'm talking about. You're convoluting.

01:22:04

No, I don't think I am. So, John Wesley said, no human being there is talking about the natural or the unregenerate man.

01:22:12

Do you agree with him? Say that again.

01:22:17

I'm sorry. That's okay. No human being. Now, obviously, I think that's just all human beings' absolute statement.

01:22:23

But John Wesley said, no, no, no. That's the unregenerate man or the natural man in verse 8 of James 3.

01:22:29

Do you agree with John Wesley on that? I would likely, but I'm not sure of the full context there or what he's ultimately saying.

01:22:37

Yeah, well, let's talk a little bit about the context here in James. Because verse 9 seems to include believers.

01:22:42

With it, the tongue. We bless our Lord and Father. And we curse people who are made in the likeness of God.

01:22:50

So, doesn't it seem to include believers also? Yeah, which is problematic.

01:22:57

The whole point he's making is that you can't be doing that. You shouldn't be doing that. So, he's not saying this is normal.

01:23:03

He's saying this is out of place. Do you think the Apostle Paul attained being perfect in his life here on earth?

01:23:11

I think Paul talks about, we read in Romans chapter 8, that yes, he is not living according to the law of sin and death in the flesh.

01:23:21

My last question is Philippians 3 .12. Paul says, not that I've already attained this or I'm already perfect.

01:23:30

Has Paul already attained perfection? Or is he saying that he has not already attained perfection?

01:23:37

Paul is talking about being in heaven and the resurrection. The context again there,

01:23:42

Jeremiah, is that he's talking about the resurrection of the dead. And he's saying right after that, not that I've already attained this.

01:23:50

Or I'm already perfect in that way. I've not attained to the resurrection. He's still here in this life.

01:23:56

But it doesn't change the fact that he's living by the Spirit. Okay, we are now a little bit past the 12 -minute mark.

01:24:04

And it is the Nazarene pastors, Jarrett K. Henry's opportunity to cross -examine the

01:24:13

Reformed Baptist pastor, Jeremiah Nortier, for 12 minutes. And you may begin. Thank you.

01:24:20

Again, thank you, Jeremiah, brother. I think there is some similarity in some places.

01:24:28

Although there's a big chasm in there as well, maybe. So just let me ask, you know, you've talked about fighting the flesh.

01:24:34

That when you're born of God, the Spirit abides with you. Believe in regeneration. That you are able to fight the flesh.

01:24:42

You even used the word victory, I think. Is that correct? You are correct. There's victory. All right.

01:24:48

So what is the extent of that victory? Or how long can that victory take place before you must sin again?

01:24:57

Yeah, honestly, there's deeper presuppositions on both sides. Because when I talk about a victory, it's a temporal victory.

01:25:03

And it's a less -than -perfect victory. Because even though there's a perfect love in me by God, the

01:25:09

Holy Spirit, at work. When I work out my salvation in fear and trembling, my participation is mixed with this sinful flesh.

01:25:20

Therefore, it does not meet the bar of perfection. So I can look at the words of 1

01:25:25

John and Romans of saying we've been set free from the power of sin. Meaning, I can choose righteousness.

01:25:32

But just like the Apostle Paul, this is going to be a lifelong battle against the flesh. Yeah, but in that battle against the flesh,

01:25:42

I'm simply asking, can you have victory? Like, if you battle with the flesh an hour from now, could you have victory?

01:25:53

Absolutely. I can have temporal, imperfect victory while I'm still here on earth in my sanctification.

01:26:00

All right. So if you could do it, like, let's say you could have victory for an hour. Do you think you could go two hours with having victory?

01:26:07

I can go maybe victorious a lot longer than that. But it still misses the bar of perfection.

01:26:14

And even my participation in this victory is going to be touched with sinful motives.

01:26:21

I mean, me and you have a great chasm. Everything that I do has been touched by sin in my members.

01:26:28

And therefore, that's why it's not perfect. The ultimate victory lies in glory where perfection.

01:26:34

OK, so if your motives are all still sinful, explain to me, like, from your position, what actually happens in regeneration?

01:26:44

Like, what is recreated? The heart. It's no longer a heart of stone.

01:26:50

It's a heart of flesh. It desires righteousness, obedience. It desires to live to the glory of God and it desires to war against sin.

01:27:01

All right. But you're saying, like Paul in chapter seven, that there is a tension there.

01:27:08

And my question is, do you believe that someone could put to death the flesh, crucify the flesh?

01:27:16

Paul talked about that in Galatians chapter three. Do you believe that Paul crucified the flesh so that he could live in the spirit?

01:27:25

Nevertheless, not I who like, but Christ who lives within me. So the life that I now live, I live in the power of Christ.

01:27:32

If you're asking me ultimately in perfection, without the possibility of sinning, no.

01:27:38

But can he do it? The spirit fueling him to live in obedience and war constantly against the flesh and have temporal, imperfect victories?

01:27:49

Absolutely. All right. No, you know, you're you're kind of hedging here because you're saying, well, you know, is it a possibility?

01:28:01

Well, I'm not saying there's not a possibility of sin or that you lose the ability to sin. Let me ask you another question.

01:28:08

In what ways, when it talks about, you know, when Jesus says, be perfect as I'm perfect, for example, you've used the word perfect, kind of changing it around the meaning of it.

01:28:19

What would you say are in what ways are we called to be perfect? Now, you realize when you sneak that in there,

01:28:25

I can address that part of your question. So I will say this. I'm not changing the meaning of perfect because we are talking about the word teleos.

01:28:34

And this is defined in the lexicon as being fully developed or complete in a moral sense.

01:28:41

Am I hedging around that definition? Yeah, I don't think moral is is part of the definition.

01:28:48

It is. It can be that way. OK, but you're accusing me of using the lexicon.

01:28:57

I'm not accusing you of using the lexicon. All right, let's let's go on. Yeah, the definition that you're giving is is kind of changing always, you know, so you can't use the word perfect and absolute in the other way.

01:29:12

So here's here's the question. First Corinthians chapter 10, he talks about temptation. I'll let you turn there or get there.

01:29:18

10 verse 13. Yeah, and I read it. No temptation has overtaken you that is not on a man.

01:29:24

God is faithful. He will not let you be tempted beyond your ability. But with the temptation, he will also provide the way of escape that you may be able to endure it.

01:29:34

So in light of that, the question is simply, do you think that God's provision for temptation does not fully allow for us to endure it by resisting it?

01:29:44

Well, it's just the same question repackaged because he can definitely conditionally provide a way of escape.

01:29:50

But it's not going to be a perfect escape where we've somehow won't ever sin again.

01:29:56

But we can have temporal imperfect victories the way that Paul describes in Romans. And so God is faithful.

01:30:02

He is the work that he began in us, which is regeneration. He's going to continue to sanctify and mold us, not completely in this life, but he will bring it to completion at the day of our

01:30:15

Lord, at his return, at the day of glory. Yeah, nobody's arguing that there's not an ongoing work of the spirit in our lives.

01:30:26

You've used the word perfect. So he doesn't use the word perfect in Corinthians here at all. He just says, with the temptation, he will also provide the way of escape that you may be able to endure it.

01:30:38

So again, the question is, do you think that God's provision for temptation does not fully allow for us to endure it by resisting that temptation?

01:30:47

Or do you think, yes, I think you can, by God's grace, can, in fact,

01:30:55

I can endure that temptation and resist it? Well, just because the word perfect is not there, it's a word concept fallacy, because I'm not going to accept your presuppositions in exegeting and understanding this verse.

01:31:06

No, I believe we can escape temptation, that we can be freed from sin, but not perfectly, or that we're never going to have the possibility to sin again.

01:31:16

But in this life, I think we can have real victories over sin, but it's an ongoing war.

01:31:25

I think when you say the war is done, that I think you're saying that something that only belongs in glory can happen in this side.

01:31:31

Nobody said the war is done. There's obviously resistance to temptation.

01:31:37

That's what he's talking about. I'm simply suggesting not that there is no war or not that there isn't, but that there is a way of escape.

01:31:46

And that's, I guess, what I'm trying to ask you is, do you not believe that that's okay? And it consistently that in every temptation, you have a way of escape by the grace of God.

01:31:57

All right. So that you can live in a state where you're consistently choosing

01:32:03

God's way of escape by his grace. Yes, as it's intermixed with this meat soup that constantly has the power of sin, which falls below the bar of perfection, meaning

01:32:14

I can't ever perfectly love God and love neighbor. But yes, I can have true victories and escape the way that we may be able to endure it, but not the way that you understand it in terms of being entirely sanctified or something.

01:32:27

Well, I'm not talking about entire sanctification at this point. I'm talking about freedom from known willful sin.

01:32:35

And that that is an ongoing way living in that freedom. All right. So next believer's entire. Well, I'll just that real quick, because for the believer's life, it'll be an ongoing war.

01:32:45

I can't say that I'm free from sin because that would be under a deception. But I can have true temporal imperfect victories because God has made it made in a way of escape for believers.

01:32:58

Well, you're conflating temptation. You're saying if you're tempted, you're not. Was that a question? You're not. You're living in sin.

01:33:03

Yeah. Is that is that not what you're saying? If I'm tempted, it means I must have sin in me. No, I'm not conflating those categories.

01:33:10

I'm actually retaining the distinction between glorification and sanctification. That they are different.

01:33:17

That they yeah, they are distinct. OK, I bet

01:33:23

I agree with that, that they are different things. You think complete sanctification can be obtained in this life?

01:33:29

I'm saying that belongs in glory. I listened to your sermon the other day. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's not what we're talking about, though.

01:33:35

I do believe that. But I believe. OK. You're talking about that, but you're you're hedging the idea of this freedom from known sin.

01:33:47

And so I'm trying to get at that, not the sanctification. So Roman chapter eight, verse 13, 14, he talked about if by the spirit put to death the deeds of the body.

01:33:56

What what would you say that he's referring to there? He's referring to both justification and sanctification.

01:34:03

Number one, we have been freed from the law and its penalty. And so we've been set free in Christ judicially.

01:34:10

And now we've been freed from sin and its power, meaning it's not our slave master.

01:34:16

We don't have to continually choose sin. We are now free and serve a new master and can choose righteousness.

01:34:22

Will it be perfect? No. Will it be an ongoing struggle like it was with the apostle Paul who was mature?

01:34:28

Yes. That's that's exactly what I'm saying. You're taking the presupposition away from me now.

01:34:35

You're saying you can be totally free from sin. Yeah, that's exactly what

01:34:40

I'm saying. So no one, no one born of God keeps on sinning, according to First John chapter three.

01:34:47

And he actually says, don't be deceived. Do you feel like people are deceived into thinking like you can keep on sinning?

01:34:53

I think whoever believes that you can be freed from all known sin is deceived.

01:34:58

You cannot reach entire sanctification in this life. All right.

01:35:04

Well, that's probably because that's not what First John chapter three says. Oh, you don't think it's about sanctification at all? Well, I'm not talking we can debate.

01:35:12

I'd be glad to have another debate with you on entire certification. This debate is not about sanctification in general. Me and you have different understandings, presuppositions of what sanctification is.

01:35:22

Absolutely. Absolutely. I agree with that. You got a question for me? Yeah.

01:35:28

You're the one asking me questions, though. My question is simply is it has to do

01:35:33

First John chapter three. You know, you're saying that you have to sin. There's no way that you can live without willful sin.

01:35:42

All right. That is the deception. All right. We can talk about sanctification another time. You think that that's a deception or whatever.

01:35:48

The question is, like, how how are you not deceived if you think that you can must keep on sinning?

01:35:55

It's a necessity for you to sin. You know, I just appealed earlier in the context and First John chapter three that those have been born again.

01:36:05

Practice righteousness. The reason why I practice righteousness is because we are not. But you're saying that they can't.

01:36:11

Right. Well, what I'm saying is you're saying they can't really. Now, I don't think you understand my position.

01:36:20

OK, we are. We're now done with that 12 minute cross examination.

01:36:26

And when we come back from our final commercial break, each of our debaters will have a eight minute second rebuttal period.

01:36:38

And we will begin with the Nazarene pastor, Jared Henry, who is affirming the thesis.

01:36:49

Christians can be totally free from known sin in this life. And we will be followed by an eight minute second rebuttal by the

01:37:00

Reformed Baptist pastor, Jeremiah Nortier, who is denying that thesis.

01:37:06

So don't go away. We're going to be right back after these messages. I'm Dr.

01:37:18

Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.

01:37:26

Every Christian who's serious about the Deformed Faith and the Westminster Standards should have and use the eight volume commentary on the theology and ethics of the

01:37:36

Westminster Larger Catechism titled Authentic Christianity by Dr. Joseph Morecraft.

01:37:43

It is much more than an exposition of the larger catechism. It is a thoroughly researched work that utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and systematic theology.

01:37:54

Dr. Morecraft is pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, and I urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation.

01:38:05

For details on the eight volume commentary, go to westminstercommentary .com, westminstercommentary .com.

01:38:13

For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com,

01:38:21

heritagepresbyterianchurch .com. Please tell Dr. Morecraft and the saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia that Dr.

01:38:30

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Associates, from Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And we are now entering into the final part of day one of our two -day debate, which will conclude tomorrow, on the theme that Christians can be totally free from known sin in this life.

01:43:10

And we are going to now have the Nazarene pastor who affirms that thesis,

01:43:17

Jared K. Henry, give his second eight -minute rebuttal. And he will be followed by Reformed Baptist pastor

01:43:24

Jeremiah Nortier, who denies that thesis with his second eight -minute rebuttal.

01:43:30

And now you may begin your eight minutes of rebuttal, Jared K.

01:43:35

Henry. For some reason,

01:43:41

I don't hear you, brother. You've got yourself on mute, I think. I'm sorry.

01:43:46

Can you hear me now? Yes, I'm resetting the clock. OK, go ahead. OK, no problem.

01:43:53

Thank you for the opportunity, Brother Chris. Thank you, Brother Jeremiah, for the lively debate.

01:43:59

I've enjoyed it. I do want to clarify, as I begin my statement, that this is not a debate about the word perfect.

01:44:07

It's been used in lots of different contexts today. We're not debating that necessarily. I would love to debate sanctification at some point.

01:44:16

Maybe, you know, me and my brother Jeremiah are getting a bit close here and we enjoy it. I like it feistiness,

01:44:21

I said last time. And so I would love to maybe debate him on that. This is not a debate even about justification, though those things do play into this issue.

01:44:31

The statement is, can Christians be totally free from known sin in this life?

01:44:38

And I just believe that any interpretation of God's word that necessitates ongoing sin, requires us after salvation to continue to live a life of sin, is not in harmony either with the will or the tenor of God's plan for full salvation.

01:44:58

So now I pressed Brother Jeremiah on some of these things, and he will admit victory, but not consistent victory.

01:45:07

Freedom, but not full freedom. And yeah, we can overcome temptation, but not always overcome temptation or not perfectly overcome temptation.

01:45:17

I don't know what that means. You either overcome or you don't. I'll admit I'm more confused than a termite in a yo -yo on where my brother stands there.

01:45:25

However, I'm not suggesting either that anyone should live in some kind of a prideful arrogance that masquerades as holiness or righteousness.

01:45:37

I am suggesting that humility and the recognition that these kinds of things are only, only sourced through the power of the

01:45:47

Holy Spirit by the grace of God. So that if I sin, and I have had to do this, if I sin,

01:45:54

I want to repent immediately. My heart is quickened by the

01:46:01

Holy Spirit and convicted, and I want to make sure that I'm walking in fellowship with Him.

01:46:07

However, I'm not going to make a practice of sinning. I'm not going to allow sin to rule in my life.

01:46:13

And sin doesn't just rule because we say it doesn't rule. It doesn't rule because it doesn't play out in our life.

01:46:21

1 John chapter 3. I just want to read it as some of my closing statement. Just read it straight. Verse 6.

01:46:27

No one who abides in Him keeps on sinning. No one who keeps on sinning has either seen

01:46:35

Him or known Him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous as He is righteous.

01:46:46

Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning.

01:46:53

The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in Him, and He cannot keep on sinning because He has been born of God.

01:47:10

Verse 10. By this it is evident who are the children of God and who are the children of the devil. Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

01:47:23

So, simply put, all of the things that Brother Jeremiah has asked me, that I think answers succinctly all of his questions.

01:47:31

So, now, let no one, if you do sin, if you do find yourself in a place where you've violated the will of God, and it comes to your attention, maybe you didn't willfully do it, even then, unintentionally, that you've sinned, you need to repent.

01:47:46

And part of walking and living in the Spirit is recognizing when those moments happen. But it should be the aim of every

01:47:53

Christian, every believer, to please God, honor Him, and allow

01:47:58

God's grace, through the death and resurrection of Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit, make it possible for them to live consistently in victory and in freedom, not being bound to sin, but taking the way of escape in every opportunity and taking that way of escape so they don't live in willful, ongoing sin.

01:48:19

So, I assert that today, I think on the authority of the Scripture, 1 John chapter 3, for example, that I just read.

01:48:25

And I don't believe that Christianity should be carried on a stick. This is what God expects of you. He says, don't continue sinning, but you're going to continue sinning.

01:48:35

It's not carried on a stick. When God calls us to something, He will also empower us.

01:48:41

I also don't believe that we go to a doctor and say, doc, I'd like to be made well, but I want to keep my fever.

01:48:47

No, I want to be made well. I want you to take all of the symptoms of sin out of my life, and that will be done.

01:48:55

Now, Brother Jeremiah is correct that in glorification, even the infirmities of the flesh are dealt with.

01:49:04

But what he is doing is translating the work that God wants to do in this life so that we don't give into willful sin to something in the future that I believe is possible when we get to heaven as well, that you don't have to live in sin in heaven.

01:49:21

But using the Scripture that he used in Revelation 21, I agree with him that those who practice sin will not get into heaven.

01:49:29

But my brother Jeremiah says, well, you can practice sin and get into heaven, as long as your name's written in the

01:49:36

Lamb's Book of Life, as if those two things are separate issues, but they're not. So, I don't want to convolute and get off into the

01:49:44

Arminianism versus Calvinism necessarily, but that is the root of some of these issues. However, I believe that Jesus came not only to deal with the penalty of our sin, but also to change not only the wrongdoing, but the wrong being, that he changes us in regeneration and, as Jeremiah said, in sanctification.

01:50:08

And he wants his people to be a holy people. This is the standard, and if Jesus gives us that standard by his own words and by the word of the gospel and Scripture, then

01:50:22

I believe he will also enable us to live according to his word. So, for you that are listening, what if we were as scared of sin as we are freedom in Christ?

01:50:34

It just seems like we're afraid to say that you can live in ongoing freedom over willful sin.

01:50:42

And I'm saying that don't rely on the flesh. Obviously, Jeremiah and I agree, the flesh will destroy you.

01:50:50

However, we're talking about the work of the Spirit in your life. You can live in the

01:50:56

Spirit. Paul talked about that in Romans chapter 8. So, I want to hate the sin.

01:51:02

I want to crucify the flesh. I want the Spirit to be my focal point and to fill me so that I can live not by the flesh.

01:51:11

I'm going to put to death the deeds of the flesh, but live by the Spirit so that I'm not bound by the law of sin and death, but by the law of the

01:51:18

Spirit and life. Okay, we have an eight -minute rebuttal, a second rebuttal, from Jeremiah Nortier, the

01:51:28

Reformed Baptist. You may begin. Thank you so much, Chris. Thank you,

01:51:33

Jared. I've never talked to somebody who's been perfectly sanctified before, so this has been a real treat for me. I guess we did this a couple weeks ago.

01:51:41

Yeah, so there's a few things you said that kind of feel like fiery darts, but it's okay because we do have a massive chasm between us.

01:51:48

I suppose in some ways we're trying to better understand each other's position. So a vastly huge misrepresentation that you have of,

01:51:58

I would say, the historic position is we're not advocating for practicing sin. Just because the power of sin still exists in our fleshly body doesn't mean that we're slaves to it.

01:52:09

It just means that we're going to be warring against the flesh, and if the possibility to sin is there, it will happen.

01:52:18

Paul in Romans 7, it agonized him. He wanted to be delivered from all known sin, and he knows that that's going to happen one day at glory.

01:52:27

So me and Jared, we have different definitions of victory. We have different definitions of what practicing sin is.

01:52:34

For him, he thinks you have to be in a moment where you're freed from all known sin, and John Wesley called that perfection.

01:52:42

And I think what Jared's doing, I think he's the one hedging around these words because he knows that's a tough sell for people to be freed from all known sin.

01:52:50

That's perfection. That's perfectly loving God and perfectly loving neighbor. Now, the audience listening, you know that that's impossible.

01:52:58

We cannot possibly love God the way that he ought to be worshipped and desired.

01:53:04

Now, is that a carrot and a stick, and is that doom and gloom, and should that lead us into depression? No, because we have the

01:53:10

Holy Spirit that intercedes on our behalf. And so where we participate in our sinful intentions because of the power of sin in our flesh, we know ultimately that the

01:53:22

Holy Spirit who began that good work in us, he's going to bring us to glory. Jared, it's not a carrot on a stick.

01:53:29

It's called the Christian's future blessed hope. It's what fuels us to live as Christ in the here and now, but knowing that to die is great gain.

01:53:39

Now, you read from 1 John 6, I believe it was, no one who abides in him keeps on sinning.

01:53:47

John already talked about it's a practice of sin, and I'm not advocating that even though I know I will sin in the future,

01:53:53

I'm not advocating that I'm going to practice. In fact, I'm going to make strong efforts to war against it.

01:53:59

In those sweet moments of victory, it's not an absolute victory, it's not a perfect victory, and even in those victories, it's intermingled with my sinful flesh.

01:54:08

I long to be delivered from this sin -cursed body like the Apostle Paul. I want to remind people what

01:54:13

John said, the true deception. I'm not advocating for practicing sin. In fact, practicing righteousness takes time, and we get better at doing these things.

01:54:21

I want everybody to know, he doesn't want to say we're talking about sanctification even though we are, because he believes in entire or complete sanctification.

01:54:30

I believe this is damaging in the Christian walk for so many ways. Number one, this sales pitch is enticing to try to get you to join that club here and now in their group, and this is something that's only promised in glory.

01:54:43

What this is going to lead to is two different kinds of Christians. You have what some people have called carnal

01:54:49

Christians or those that really struggle in the flesh, but you've got to listen to people like Jared who have been completely sanctified and freed from all known sin.

01:55:00

Two problems with this. That's why 1 John 1 .10 once again calls this a deception. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar and his word does not abide in us.

01:55:10

This is a problem because people are going to think that it's actually obtainable to be freed from all known sin, willful sin, voluntary sin in this life.

01:55:19

Once they realize that that's not possible, it's going to lead them to spiritual apathy. It's going to lead them to spiritual depression, and I want to come along beside that person and say, no, no, no.

01:55:30

This life is meant to be war. We do have the Holy Spirit, and we will have those moments of sweet victory, but the ultimate battle that Christ won, he promised that he will resurrect us from the dead so we can keep marching on.

01:55:44

So for those people that are trying to obtain entire sanctification and realize you can't hang in there because ultimate sanctification will be in glory.

01:55:52

My heart breaks for Jared because he knows that this is going to be a problem with those people that buy into complete holiness, entire sanctification.

01:56:02

He is blinded to the actual sin in his life. He thinks he's free from it.

01:56:08

But you notice kind of the bait and switch. Well, that's an unknown sin. In the Old Testament, there were sacrifices to be made for both sin and unknown sin, and that's the whole point in sanctification.

01:56:20

Yeah, there will be unknown sin in your life. That's why you can't complete entire sanctification in this life.

01:56:27

But in glory, one day there will no longer be the possibility of sinning at all.

01:56:32

And you notice, I felt like I took Jared a task on this because in the new heavens and new earth,

01:56:38

I thought he was going to potentially say this. But he said, I don't know, Jeremiah. I don't know if we're going to be able to sin again in heaven.

01:56:46

Saint, please know that when you have resurrected fully spirit controlled bodies in glory, there will be not even an opportunity or the slightest motivation or opportunity to sin.

01:56:59

Why? Because Jesus is a perfect Savior. He tried to say, well, Satan fell and he was in a state of holiness there.

01:57:06

I want to tell everybody what awaits for us is so much better than what

01:57:12

Lucifer had before his fall. And so I read the verse that said no evil doer, nothing detestable, anything unclean is ever going to enter in and exist in the glorified eternal state.

01:57:26

And then it broke my heart because he said, but Jeremiah said you can make a practice sinning and get on in. I do not agree with your presuppositions,

01:57:34

Jared, that because the power of sin that still exists in our members, just because it's going to be a war, an ongoing battle the way that Paul said in Romans chapter seven, that does not mean that we are practicing sin.

01:57:47

To practice something means you deliberate on it. You plan for it. You want to do it. That is the unregenerate.

01:57:54

That is the unbeliever. They want to suppress the truth and the righteousness. They love their sin.

01:58:00

Therefore, they plan for it. And Jared, the unbeliever gets better at sinning. Now, sanctification.

01:58:06

I know he said it's not really about the debate, but if we're talking about in this life, he couldn't help but to quote the passages that do mention sanctification because these are just the deeper principles that divide us.

01:58:17

I want us to properly distinguish the categories of justification, sanctification, and glorification.

01:58:23

And when you think that you can reach entire, complete sanctification in this life, well, you've actually conflated what awaits us in our blessed hope and glory in this life.

01:58:35

And I believe that is why 1 John tells us that if we say that we have no sin, we are deceived.

01:58:42

And so I want to encourage everybody, especially when we do this all over again tomorrow, we're going to be getting into what it means to practice sin.

01:58:51

I do not believe that a Christian can habitually plan, practicing, loving their sin.

01:58:58

That does not mean that the Christian cannot war against the flesh. And so I think

01:59:04

Jared's position, unfortunately, has to conclude that he has reached a level of perfection in the

01:59:13

John Wesley sense, meaning that he can perfectly love God and love neighbor. And what did

01:59:19

Jared admit? He believes that he is the perfect man able to tame the tongue in James chapter 3.

01:59:25

I want to let everybody know there was only one perfect man to walk this earth, and it was Jesus Christ. Well, we are out of time, and perhaps tomorrow we'll have more time to have audience questions, but we do not today.

01:59:37

I hope you tune in tomorrow to Iron Trump and Zion Radio for day number two of this two -day debate.

01:59:42

I want to thank our debaters for doing such superb jobs, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater