What Did You Expect? | Outside Eden

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00:09

Welcome to Outside Eden, two centers discovering grace together. I'm your host, Jon Moffitt, pastor of Grace Reform Church in Spring Hill, Tennessee, along with my wife of 20 years.

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Her name is Judith, and we are at home with our four children, ages from six to 18. And you'll most likely hear them in the background with some dog running around here and there.

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So we're trying our best to keep the noises down. But we had just had dinner, and we're going to try our best to get this podcast done in about 20 minutes.

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So welcome, Judith. Thank you. This is her first podcast. I've been trying to get her to do this for a long time.

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And I've been doing Theocast for many years. And we, Judith and I, we have people in our church that we love and we care for and we're trying to counsel.

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And so she has agreed to start loving on our ladies. And this is hopefully going to be beneficial for them and anyone else that wants to listen.

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But there's a lot of bad information out there right now. She and I have had to sift through and kind of counsel people away from really bad information.

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And so instead of just saying, don't listen to this, we decided, well, why don't we provide an alternative? And so here's the alternative grace at the center of our marriages.

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So as the title of this particular podcast says, what did you expect? Some of this is just going to be us talking about our experiences for them, the negative side.

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But we're definitely going to point you to the gospel on the positive sides of what to do.

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So Judith, we're going to begin with kind of what you and I have dealt with.

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We were in college ministry for about 10 years and every summer we would do, I would do about six weddings, but Judith would join me in the premarital counseling.

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And so I would ask this question, what, why are you like, what, what, what, what makes you so convinced you want to marry this person?

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And what were some of the answers we got? I like how they make me feel. They understand me.

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They get me. We have fun together. Make me feel safe.

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Yeah. And I would say, well, I get you and I definitely don't want to marry you. Right. So, yeah.

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And then I would ask them a complicated question, which it is brutal and I understand that and it's hard, but it's,

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I think it's, it was trying to get at the core of what I wanted them to understand was, all right, well, day before the wedding, you're in a car accident and you're mangled.

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Right. You, you can't walk. You don't look the same. You can't, you can't function the same intimacy is going to be different.

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You know, how does that, does that change anything, you know? And it was the look on their faces was, you know, yeah, it made me want to get up and say,

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I had to go to the bathroom or something, but it's true. You know, it's true. We, we don't, we don't realize how the world has shaped our minds when it comes to intimacy.

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We are not even just intimacy, but marriage in general. We enter into relationships and I would say all relationships, even we do this with our kids and we're going to get to another podcast, but today it's just more of like, what do you think was going to happen when you bring two centers together?

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So I would love for you, we had talked about this earlier, but I would love for you to just kind of talk about what has influenced the

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Christian mind as it comes to marriage. Right. Well, my first thought comes to, um, just our culture and its view of love and marriage and how that has completely infiltrated the church and specifically in culture.

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I mean, it really, it's everywhere, right? I mean, music, love songs. It's funny because there are very comparatively speaking, there's very few love songs that talk about the joy of love and, um, that, you know, what it means to be with somebody.

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It's usually a lot like angsty songs, um, or, or just, you know, inappropriate in general, you know?

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Um, and we love, we, we have a lot of love songs that we like, so I'm not, I'm not downplaying any of this, but, uh, it's just one of the ways it seeps in.

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I just want to point that out cause it's just so subtle. It's in our music, it's in our movies, you know, you've got the Hallmark movies, which

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I love. Hallmark shows. There's definitely, I love that. I'm going to say it's wrong at all. Um, these reality dating shows, which

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I think has been really bad for, for the church and, um, what our expectations are and not just about falling in love and getting married, but also just about intimacy, just, um, how it's just worthless.

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It's just something you do, but I'm getting ahead of myself anyway, so, uh, I think that has infiltrated the church and, um,

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I think it's caused a lot of problems. I think it's made the first, I mean, marriage is going to be hard at first anyway, but when you go in thinking, when you go into it thinking that, oh, good, now

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I'm going to be happy. Now I'm going to be complete. They're going to do what I want. I'm going to come home from a hard day of work and they're going to have dinner waiting for me with a smile because that's what they do.

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Right. And you know, he's always going to tell me I'm beautiful and I'll like, I'm the only woman in the room and he's gonna, all of those things that these movies and songs and shows tell us, um, it just makes it really hard when that doesn't happen.

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And that's not even, that's not the goal in the first place. Yeah. Well, what I find is interesting is like the

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Hallmark movies, they always, um, play what part of the relationship. Right. The very beginning. Right. And country songs are always telling you about the end of the relationship.

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Yeah. So, but it's true where, you know, there's a couple of shows that we even watch with our kids.

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What is it? Uh, all things great and small. And there's a love story that's in there and it's fun and you know, you watch it blossom or whatever.

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But what's, what is sad is that, you know, you and I, I know personally, I'll speak for myself. We experienced this.

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I can remember telling people, Oh, just marry your best friend and your marriage will be amazing. And, and you are, we, you and I were very close friends.

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Um, we met when we were 15 and had a lot in common. We're both pastor's kids and, and, and I really appreciated our relationship.

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And so I would just kind of always tell people, you know, I'll just marry your best friend. Well, a few years into the, into the marriage,

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I can just remember six months into the marriage, we were not well. And I remember sitting down going, what's, what's going on, you know, and you're describing,

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I'm describing to you all the ways that I'm loving you. And you're like, no, I, I am not feeling loved by that. And it,

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I can't remember exactly how I felt. I thought I was going to throw up. I'm like, what happened?

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Like my mind blew open and I was describing all of the selfish ways

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I was loving you. And I was not loving you in a way that was selfless or sacrificial, which we're going to get into in a little bit.

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But a lot of our first few years of marriage was kind of us discovering how sinful we were both and how much sin we brought in to this relationship, which is funny because when you're, you know, we were, we even laugh about just bad habits that I have and you don't have any bad habits at all, but.

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You want me to do another? That's right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I got to keep you going with it. But you know, when you don't spend every waking moment together when you're friends and then when you get married, all of a sudden you're like nowhere to hide and the real you comes out.

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James says, why are you at war with one another? Why are you fighting? Is it not that your passions are at war? So you're passionate about what you want and I'm passionate about what

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I want. And sometimes we'll sugarcoat it with this fantasy side of marriage.

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It's like, you know, the way, the way that the TV or entertainment world or whatever novels,

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I mean, this, this kind of stuff has been around far beyond the last hundred years. The way in which our minds, we take, we take something that God has intended to be wonderful and glorious, but we try to, we try to create it in the opposite way.

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So I'm going to just read a couple of verses that Judith and I, this is, I think what's transformed my life and I know it's transformed our marriage to where, and we still struggle.

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I mean, we still have arguments and we have to come back and confess our sins. But where I think what the design of this podcast is for and the whole idea of discovering grace together is understanding that without the grace of God, your relationship is never going to be satisfaction.

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It just can't because we are driven by selfishness. I mean, this is Romans seven, the things that I don't want to do,

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I keep doing the things that I need to do. I'm not doing how, how am I going to deal with this? He says, thanks be to Christ.

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So this is Philippians chapter two and he says, I want you to,

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I want you to hear this and then Judith, I'll let you interact with this as we, as I get done reading it. But Paul talks about where, so we had just said, all right, the world tells you, find, find someone that satisfies you, that makes you happy, that intimately makes you feel loved.

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And I mean, it's so crazy. Even in our world, they're like, well, maybe sleep with them first so that, you know, that's what they actually do on the dating show.

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It's like, well, let's try it out if it, and it's like, wow, it's, it's, it's everything is so upside down.

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It's so self -centered. Right. So listen to how Paul describes this. So if there's any encouragement in Christ, right.

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Any comfort from love, love of who, from Christ, any participation in the spirit, any affection and sympathy.

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So he's saying, if this is true about this relationship that you have, then he says, complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and in one of mind, which is why you as Christians are commanded not to marry an unbeliever.

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Because if you have two people who are agreeing that the greatest joy and satisfaction they have is in Christ, then he says this, do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility, count others more significant than yourself.

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How in the world am I going to have enough energy to overcome my stupid flesh that I love to fulfill?

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And Paul says, by making sure that you're finding your comfort and your encouragement and really your identity all in somebody other than your spouse, right?

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Right. Because we do this, right? I want you to make me significant.

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I want you to make me to feel significant, look significant, right? And it's dangerous because the moment

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I do that, all of a sudden I'm asking you to be God. Really? I'm asking you to do something.

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You can't, you can't love me perfectly. You can't perfectly encourage me. No. Can you love me?

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Sure. Can you encourage me? Sure. But not in the way that Christ can. Right. And this is so opposite from what we experience in the world.

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Right. And I will say this real quick. I know this isn't a parenting one, but I think we need to be careful to not underestimate how much that culture really affects us.

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And specifically, and I say this because we have three teenagers, specifically with our kids, um,

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I think we really need to be careful. No, no, I don't want to make rules about every single thing cut off.

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Don't watch or listen to anything secular. I don't want to do that. I don't, I don't think that's necessary. Yeah.

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We're about to go watch Andor after this. Right. But I think we should be having conversations with them about, now listen to how that song made love sounds.

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What do you think about that? Like what, how does that work? And you know, 10 years down the road, you know, um, what, what does that show portraying?

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You know, I think it's really important because their entire view, you could have a great marriage.

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Their parents could have a great marriage, but if that's what's influencing them, the things they're watching and hearing every day, um,

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I think we really need to be careful not to underestimate that and make sure that we are helping them filter through that.

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I think to turn that on the positive, where if he's saying you're encouraged, that means there has to be a steady diet and inflow of reasons to be encouraged by Christ, right?

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So every, from the moment we wake up, we are being influenced by information, right?

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Radio, TV, podcast, friends, advertisement, no matter where we go, we are being sold.

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And it, the, our whole, our whole culture is a sexualized culture. So even, yeah, so we're, we even use objectify those women to advertise things.

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And then we wonder why we come home and our flesh has just been feeding on all of this.

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Like I deserve this me time. I deserve it. It's insane.

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I mean, it's so selfish and self -focused and then we read scripture and the

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Bible gives us grace and mercy and forgiveness and hope and encouragement. And it does tell us that we can,

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I mean, I love this when Jesus says, do not try and lay up treasures here on this earth.

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I've never actually thought about this before, so I'm going to say this now and it may not be a great thought, but people can try and create, like I've seen people try to create these, um, you know, what, what trophy marriages, like these marriages where everybody's wowed by it.

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Like I always try and tell people you would not be impressed with my marriage, like power couples, power couples.

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That's so good. You, I tell people all the time, you would not be impressed by Judith and I's marriage.

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Well not even normal. It's just kind of like, yeah, we sin, we disagree, we let, we let each other down.

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We completely sin all the time. But I think what I think our marriage is strong because we both realize we cannot look to each other for satisfaction.

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If we do that, it's going to fail. But if I try and serve you and I'm like, all right, I'm going to lay my life down, consider others more significant than yourself, or I'll, this part of, um,

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I think this is where things changed for me, Judith, is that, do you remember, I don't, you remember if this was probably three years ago when

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I was preaching through John 15, I was really frustrated. You and I had just gone through a really complicated, um, situation in our life with someone we knew and it just was a very hard time in ministry and parenting.

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And it was just hard. We had a 16 slash 15 year old and a three -year -old, it was just like really hard.

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We just got into a new house and I just can't remember thinking, Lord, I don't know if I want to keep doing this. And then

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I had to preach John 15 when Jesus says, my joy can be in you and your joy can be full.

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And I thought to myself, whatever he says next, I'm going to do because I have no joy. I'm just,

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I'm dry. And he says, love one, he goes, literally he says, lay down your life for others.

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And I remember going to, and I was like, right, well, I'm going to, we're going to try this. We're going to, I'm going to just, if this doesn't work,

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I don't, I don't know what to think about Christianity anymore. And we noticed, I felt like there was a change in like every area from just the simple conversations we would have about our kids to the marriage bed.

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I just felt like everything changed because it was more of, okay, I'm going to get joy out of what

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I give Judith and give her what she needs, not necessarily what she wants. I'm going to give her what she needs, which is grace and mercy and patience and gentleness and kindness.

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And I don't want to do things where I find my, my satisfaction in what I give her, not in necessarily what

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I get out. Now I guarantee you the moments that I don't do this, which is often I get angry at you, you and I get in disagreements and it's, it's healthy to be reminded.

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So anyways, this is a long section and I'll, I'll throw it back over to you. I believe if you weigh how much the world influences us versus how much

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God's word influences us, is there a lot of scripture verses that talk about marriage?

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No. In parenting, actually no. There's like a few verses, but there is a whole book that talks about how

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God satisfies your heart and how you are to live as a child of God in a relationship with another human being.

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The whole book is about that. And so I think that it's marriage needs to not be about how to have dates, how to have, you know,

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I always tell people you would never want to go on vacation with Judith and I, because we do not, we do not, it is, you and I love it, but we don't even have a scheduled date night.

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You know, people, some people, and it's not that it's wrong, but it's just kind of like, it's just, we're, we're trying to just live life together and love each other.

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And I don't think having certain, a guaranteed date night or guaranteed trip or this or that is going to fix your marriage.

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Sometimes you're not in the mood. When you're not in the mood for a date and you try to have one. Can I tell them, can

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I tell them the story about our date in the parking lot? I don't remember. One night you and I were going out and we got in a little bit of an argument and then we got over the argument and then neither of us wanted to go into a restaurant.

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Oh yeah, I remember that. So we went to Culver's, got hamburgers and turned on Netflix in the parking lot.

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Yeah, it was great. Cause we knew it was awesome. Yeah. I mean, I actually remember that date, but the point of it was, is that it's not the date that fixed it, you know, it's so anyways, well, this is getting down to the end.

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And so I want to just kind of finalize. So Judith, as we kind of conclude this,

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I know we've kind of talked about here, there and everywhere. I guess my encouragement to you would be in the last few years of helping other people think through marriage and even thinking through your own marriage, how do you process, like when you're discouraged, you're down, you're, you're frustrated.

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I mean, just be frank, you're frustrated with me or you're frustrated with the kids. What helps you, what encourages you to remember that the real joy is not in what this life can give you, even when you're struggling with health or you're struggling with fatigue, like where is it that you go as a mom, as a wife that like, okay,

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I need to find my joy in these things. Where is that for you? Right. Well, a lot of times

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I think it's just remembering that God loves me and he's good because I think the problem is sometimes

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I don't understand. I'm thinking particularly in health, you know, like I don't understand why this isn't getting better and that can be really discouraging.

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And you feel, especially as a mom, um, that you're not getting anything done. And you're not even doing what you were made to do by having children, taking care of people.

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Um, I feel like just, um, kind of just having open palms to God and talking, um, to him and, and, and talking to him, reminding yourself that he loves you and he's good.

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And there is a purpose in all pain. And, um, yeah,

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I felt like I had to divide up the two questions you just asked like to two different answers. Yeah. That's okay. Now I already can't remember the first, the first part

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I was going to say. Yeah. Suffering, parenting. Oh yeah. And so with you and the kids, um,

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I think a lot of times it helps to remember that if I'm upset, it's, it's usually because I'm upset with how you or the kids made me feel.

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So it has less to do when I really think about it, it doesn't matter what you guys did. It's how, what you did made me feel, which is actually really enlightening because then that means it's in, it's in my control because I can change how

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I feel with God's help, you know? So that always helps me like really bring it back to I'm, I am angry right now or impatient or frustrated because of how they're making me feel what

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I need to remember that it's not about me. So I can let, I can let that go more easily when I think about that.

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So I didn't give you one answer for all of it. I think that was great. So the two things that came to my mind.

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Yeah. So this is a spicy take with just a few seconds left in the podcast. No, that's fine.

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I think I'll be okay with it. But one of the areas I think a lot of people struggle with in marriage and it's, you know, it's all based on personalities, but a lot of times people put a lot of pressure on themselves as parents and, and, and as married couples based on the perceptions of other people, like what other people think about you and that pressure that you have.

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Uh, I think for instance, you and I, we talk about this, like when we first, when we first got married, um, public displays of affection were like a major no, no, which

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I didn't quite understand what that meant to this day. I understand.

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I still rebel. Uh, I, I, Judith is a rule follower. I'm a rule breaker and we balance each other out.

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I've gotten you to break many rules. Yes. I would like us to balance out the other way, be more comfortable.

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You'll make me feel more comfortable, right? But it's what's helpful is that at times you are definitely more sensitive to what people think than I am.

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And you pull me that direction saying you probably should care about what these people think. And at the same time,

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I'm like, Hey, I don't think it really matters what they think because what does God think? Right.

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So, or my favorite, when you say, well, yeah. What if they do think you are, you're selfish?

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What if they do think you're, you probably are, right? I mean, you're a sinner and that sounds really harsh right now.

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I know for people listening, but honestly, we've talked about this in women's group ladies. So I know this sounds familiar, but it's actually very freeing because you're like, you're right.

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What? I'm not perfect. So they very well might be right. I'm being selfish. And where do I go with that?

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You know? Right. And never to justify our sin because I have never met anybody who's in sin and, and is excited to be in sin.

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But I think it's helpful to say, yeah, you know what? I'm not perfect. I don't have it all together. I mean, look, we'll just be frank.

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Being a pastor, people have very high expectations on us. And we're kind of doing this podcast saying, actually, we're really normal and we have the same struggles you do.

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We have the same frustrations you do. It's just that we have found so much hope and joy outside of our marriage.

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Our marriage works because we don't think about us in the relationship.

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We put Christ in the middle of it. Now, did Judith and I do that every single day? No. Do we sit down and have daily devotions?

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Do we even pray every single day? No. But I think what drives our marriage is that I'm going to love you the same way

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Christ has loved me, which is sacrificially. I'm going to find my joy in that. And it's, it's, um, you know, at times it is, it is fun when you, you acknowledged it the other day and it made my day.

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You acknowledged like, wow, you really are taking care of me. And I was like, man, like you didn't have to acknowledge that.

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But the fact that you did, I was like, wow, yeah, you're right. I really did do that for you, but I didn't want you to acknowledge it.

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So, uh, I think we've rambled here, there, and everywhere, but my encouragement to you in our final conclusion, and then

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I'll let you have any final thoughts if you have any, um, the world's lying to us.

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If you want to have joy, it's not in the size of your waist, your height. It's not what color your eyes are.

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It's not how, if you're a power couple, it's not finding the perfect, you know, white night.

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If you go into relationships looking for that, you will believe the lie of Satan.

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But if you think to yourself, I want to experience what does it look like to lay my life down and to care for and reflect

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Christ to somebody and watch them enjoy receiving that you, you can marry and really have an amazing relationship that ultimately glorifies the

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Lord. Judith and I try our best to teach our girls and our guys, our boys, our girls and our guys. Um, and we're going to definitely do an episode on how do you shepherd your children?

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Not at the age of 17. That's too late. You got to start at the age of seven and, or even earlier of teaching them proper relationships and infamous on God.

23:53

So that's, yeah, that's my final thought. Did you have any just kind of parting thoughts before we close this down?

23:59

Um, no, really. Okay. Well, thank you guys. Um, this is great. Uh, it's gone better than I thought, and we'll definitely open it up for questions.

24:08

So if you want to reach out to us, you can do so. If you're listening to this on the airwaves and you're not a part of our church, you can just reach out to us through theocast or the contact page there.

24:16

If you have a question that you would like for us to cover, but we definitely have a long lineup of things that we want to cover. Um, things like dating and how do you overcome conflict?

24:26

How do you overcome, um, bitterness? Uh, how do you identify a fight?

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Whether is it, are you actually arguing about whether you put the forks away, right? Or is there something else that you're arguing about?

24:39

Right? Uh, intimacy, a lot of, a lot of, uh, topics coming your way. So we hope this was helpful.