The Worst Good Faith Debater In History? - Part 4

All right everybody let's just jump right back into the fire. I was gonna do a video today about Joel Webben and all of the very bizarre heat that he's been taking from guys like K-Dub Williams and Thomas Kostuzis.

I mean they've Kostuzis? Kostuzis? They've decided that right response ministries is the most pressing issue of our day. A lot of these guys have been kind of mining his sermon content to find things that they could say are very dangerous and concerning.

Very weird behavior and I want to analyze it. I want to try to get to the bottom of why this is happening. I've got a few ideas. I've got a few theories. It's not normal interaction. It's definitely abnormal interaction.

Like obviously you know these guys they're content creators whatever. They're gonna you know they're gonna interact with things that they find you know interesting or wrong or whatever but this is not the normal kind and so I want to talk about that.

So if you are interested in that let me know in the comments section that you are but for right now we're just gonna go right back to this good faith debate. We're a little less than halfway through it.

Racial Reconciliation and Racial Harmony

I gotta move faster so hopefully I'm gonna keep my mouth shut a little bit more today. We will see but these two guys this is an interesting conversation. One more definitional question. Do you use the terms racial reconciliation and racial harmony synonymously?

What's the freaking difference? Why is this important? One more clarification. Do you use the term racial reconciliation and racial harmony and synonymously? What's the difference? None of this matters anyway.

This is just all theoretical nonsense. Oh my goodness. Do we really need to parse the difference between racial harmony and racial reconciliation? Do we really need to figure out the nuances of each term?

Or do you think those are different.

Things? I think they're related. I don't think about it. You know something about that. It seems like. Well they're not exactly the same. These guys they're like whole.

Career depends on making it seem like this is very important. This is not.

Important. You can have racial harmony without racial reconciliation.

You can have racial harmony without racial reconciliation. Every square is a circle but.

Every square is a rectangle. I totally disagree. This is where the.

Debate must be found. Racial reconciliation has nothing to do with racial harmony. They ain't related. Oh man. Oh my gosh. Do these guys when they go to bed at night. This is what I wonder. I wonder this sometimes.

People like this that their whole careers are based on complete nonsense. That's if they're not passers. They're passers okay. They got a real job. But if this guy's a sociologist and this is what he gets paid for to decipher the difference between harmony and racial reconciliation.

Both made up nonsense. But there's just key differences there. When they go to bed at night you know they presumably have a nice house and you know they've got nice pillows you know and they've got a nice family a nice wife and all their the stuff all the stuff that they live among and they have and they go on nice vacations it all comes from pure unadulterated made up gobbledygook that they invented.

Do they feel a little guilty like because when I go to bed you know I know I've added value to the world you know my job it's not it's not the most glamorous job in the world that I that I have but I've added value you know I've helped companies grow and that feels good you know there's some companies that I that I've had a significant impact on their on their growth story you know then and and you know I've played there's one company in particular I've placed over 60 people at and it's a small company it's maybe like 150 people and so I've had a huge impact on how they've grown as a business and they're providing a product that delivers great value to their clients and look in a small way I was part of that and that that that's an honest buck I feel good about that you know I don't have any wonderings if if I'm just you know robbing people blind I think they do I think these guys feel guilty at night sometimes where they're like man I got guy literally charged people to decipher the difference between two nonsense terms restoratives.

Right and so we've had a bunch of suckers come back together. Something has created a breach. Tony Soprano makes it more honest. Livings a state. Right and so here we are. It's harmonious it doesn't. It does not require there ever being a.

History of division and things like that. So George you said that if we're not careful our motives can slip into revenge. And we have people advocating different positions even in previous debates and and obviously you're not insinuating revenge on their part whichever one whichever side the argument there is.

But but how might we check our our souls our spirits in in this argument to to know if revenge is maybe a prime motivating factor or if.

We've crossed that line somewhere so I would think I'm thinking most people who engage in revenge don't think they're doing revenge. Okay. They think they think they're doing. What they're doing is right.

I think the people who killed the you know the family that they were doing the right thing was that we're.

There so that's it that's the thing Ramoff Tarkin. I think we have to hear.

Other people and because I think that is an important check I think we have to hear their concerns and I think we have to try to address their concerns. Now hear me I'm not saying that we have to say all right.

This is what you want to give you a hundred percent what you want. No one gets a hundred percent of what they want we. It's dangerous to give us humans a hundred percent what we want. We don't do well with that one that.

But we have to hear and take that into consideration. And if you're married you know what that means. You know you're married. If you get a hundred percent what you want there's a problem because you're the bill is coming due.

All right. So you know. So you have to be very careful that we need to negotiate and argue with one another. And are you in a good way not in a polarizing way. I want to be also clear on this what my thing is that we all have to enter into this discussion honestly and open to this area.

No one else. That is something that I think everybody has in common. Well I'm not saying we're gonna have a common solution. The solutions customs worked out and given our racial history a lot of times perhaps not all the times a lot of times a solution is going to look like well why don't have to make more justice in people of color.

I think that that's perfectly fair given our racial.

History. Yes it's definitely how you know. Okay. This is this is what he just said. He mumbled through a bunch of stuff. Who knows he said that the way to make sure you're not getting revenge is to hear people out.

But if you're white it's keep in mind that you're basically going to have to agree most of the time not all the time most of the time with blacks. And that's how blacks know they're not getting into revenge.

They've heard the white people and dismiss them just listening. This is this is what he's basically presented so far in this. We're a half an hour in this. The way to solve the problems is not. No. Don't don't don't compare it to God's justice.

Don't look for it to the scripture for answers. Because you know God is there. Sure he's just. Yeah he's there. But the way to know that you're not sinning is to listen. That's it. You listen to the other side.

You bring him in. You bring him into the table the negotiating table. And then we negotiate what morality is. We negotiate morality amongst ourselves. And the way that you know you've done it is if you're listening to the other side.

But if you're black keep in mind that you're gonna get your way a lot of the time because of the racial history. So the racial history makes blacks positions more moral and more likely to be right if you're white.

I'm sorry. But the racial history has determined that you are much more evil. And so yeah we'll hear you out because that's how we somehow managed to avoid revenge. But just keep in mind you're wrong most of the time because of the racial history.

This is all I don't have to tell this audience. This is brain dead. This man is brain dead. I got to be honest with you I don't say this often about people. This man is not too bright. This is a low IQ person.

The other guy is sharp. I still disagree with him but it's very clear that he's got more logical thought processes. He's more rational he can understand things. And sure he's wrong about some things. But he's making sense.

I can understand what he's saying. This guy is absolutely brain.

Dead. But even knowing that if we don't enter that conversation in a way where we're going to hear people out then we're setting up the people what first us. Just scripturally you know the Bible tells us to think about the interests of others.

All right. So I mean we may only get away from that but that's there. But even just practically you know empirically we set people up for a backlash we set people up to fight us on every step of the way like a lot of woke.

People will will misuse scripture to try to make their points sound good but at least they do it in a way that's somewhat plausible. It's it makes sense like you could see the thought process there. And you could you could even find the mistakes a lot of the time.

But at least you could understand what they're saying. Like like Eric Mason for example when he tried to use the Bible to talk about reparations you know I I think he's wrong. And I and I described why I thought he was wrong.

But at least you could follow his thought process. This man has just said that the Bible says you got to consider the interests of others. That's true. It does. But what does that have to do with determining what justice is.

Nothing if the Bible doesn't say anything about that that what does it have to do with determining whether or not your heart is desiring and seeking revenge. Nothing. It has nothing to do with that. What does it have to do with with what did he.

Just man I just lost what my train of thought of what he was just talking about. It's just it's just this is not even plausible. This guy is a train wreck. I it's very confusing as to why they chose this man again.

He can't put two sentences together. I can barely understand the words that he's using. And it's not because they're big words. It's because he's mumbling through them. I don't get it. This guy's a disaster.

But notice he's like well yeah you know you got a you we got to go into the conversation willing to hear people out. But just know keep in mind because of the racial history white people are wrong most of the time and black people are right most of the time.

And so he set up this no-win situation. Of course obviously for white people you guys are just wrong. So yeah we'll hear you out and you can know we're hearing you out because we're telling you. But you have to cave.

And if you don't cave you're not hearing us out. Okay. It's quite aggressive. Get it there either. So.

That's a big part of what I'm advocating is that you know that we we check ourselves by being in conversation with others in a way that's respectful to them in a way that's productive that we build on each other's ideas they move.

Forward. I like that and we're gonna get to the practical things the moving forward things from both of your comments but I want to ask you Daryl George and make sure I say this I quote you correctly.

I heard him say racial justice cannot move forward without racial reconciliation. Do you agree with.

That I don't disagree with that. I think that they travel together. I think they're very much bound together. That does not mean that they're exactly the same thing. And it doesn't mean that all considerations for justice have a reconciliation a reconciliation kind of attribute.

And so I know we're gonna get to some of the practical things but I'll just say this now there are various expressions of racial injustice in our society and I think particularly around meaningful disparities.

And so those disparities being addressed is not something that we simply to sit down and kind of talk about. How you feel about it. How do you feel about the fact that there are significantly worse health care outcomes for black people.

That's not a discussion item and so we need to take that thing is a very serious data point of injustice and figure out how to eradicate that disparity. I think that's true in a whole variety of ways and so I think it's essential that we recognize that there are key aspects of injustices.

There aren't things that we simply resolve in a conversation but we do have to recognize that that's a major problem in our national in a church narrative and that we want to address those disparities and bring the right people to the table to solve that problem and not simply get to a consensus.

So I said.

I had my last definitional question so this is really funny because now we found the debate so so I guess I owe gospel coalition a little bit of an apology. There is a debate here. I mean it's not what that it's not the title of the debate.

So they're still you know misrepresenting what this is about. But there's a debate here. They both agree on everything except one of them is wants to get your feelings and talk talk through your feelings in like a little kumbaya circle.

And the other one says no we need action we need action. They both agree they need action. But one of them is like yeah but we got to get through our feelings first. The other guys kind of just like you're not against it necessarily.

But he doesn't really want to emphasize that. That's the debate. This debate is basically do feelings count more than action. Or does action count more than feelings. That's the real debate here. They should have titled it something like that facts don't care about your feelings.

Do facts care. Do facts care about your feelings. Good faith debate. There's a there's a good faith debate. That's what this one actually is. Do facts care about your feelings. I was wrong. George. You said that you fear that much of what we see today in anti-racism emphasizes telling white people that their job is to do what people of color want.

Without question. Anti-racism is a very technical term. This is so funny. I gotta be honest I owe this guy an apology to whatever his name is. He might not have done it intentionally and I doubt this is gonna be answered by this guy.

But he just kind of called them on a contradiction in a nice way. Maybe maybe have underestimated this guy. Because if you remember a few minutes ago this guy was saying over here you know we gotta hear you out but just know that our racial justice you know history means that black people are gonna be right.

They're gonna get their way most of the time. Not every time but most of the time. And this guy pointed out hey you know earlier you said that doesn't mean that white people just have to do what black people do.

You worry that that's what people think it means. So there's kind of like a mild contradiction there. And I doubt he's he's maybe he has let's you know let's let's let's believe all things. Let's believe all things.

I'm gonna believe. I just choose to believe that this white guy here with the matching jacket and pants are and shoes. He's he wanted to point out this contradiction. Or maybe a tension in his positions.

And he wanted to do it in a way that's non-threatening. That's that's very winsome. And in a good faith way he should have pointed it out much more aggressively in my opinion because it's a debate and that's the whole point.

But you know this is a good-faith debate. So maybe he realized hey you know you're full of it. And here's some proof because you said two things that seem to contradict what say you let's find out. Would you mind just fleshing that out a little bit flush that out.

He could have said let me translate that flush that out means you're full of it and I want you to.

Prove how you're not full of it. Sure. So when I wrote my book what I did was I read the major anti-racism book they were popular at that time so this guy wrote a book and I looked for just tendencies among them because I wanted to know popular anti-racism I was less concerned about you know the academic anti-racism which you know in a journal that all 15 people read.

So I want to know you know the anti-racism people are talking about what they mean. And that's where I saw certain things that popped up in almost every book and article that I saw. And one of them was this sort of notion that they talked a lot about whites and what whites should be doing.

And so I just came to the conclusion that you know in popularized anti-racism there's an expectation that whites are to do what people of color want them to do. And yeah and you have.

That expectation to the only difference is you said not all the time but most of the time you are the man you're the man. That's you. You you said the same thing except you tried to kind of weasel II kind of mealing in a mealy-mouthed way said yeah but not every time.

I'm sure they say that too. If you really press them on a man maybe not maybe not a lot of these guys. Jamar Tisby you know a Brahm X can die or whatever his name is that mushroom dude. They're a little crazy.

Maybe maybe they say every time but you believe the same thing. I stop trying to act like you're this voice of reason. You're not. You believe the exact.

Same thing is if I'm incorrect then find me the popular anti-racism book that doesn't do that because I could not find that book. Yeah and your book clearly doesn't do that either. And to me that is maybe I don't know I've read there's a lot of terrorism that I actually like and agree with.

Yeah even that you agree with that too. I think that's a major problem in it all right. So I want to go.

Back to this phrase racial justice cannot move forward without racial reconciliation. I I think I hear and I agree with both of you that they are in extra to inextricably linked they go they move forward together maybe one ahead of the other but just in case someone's out there thinking this does that open you up to the the claim that that would not have solved slavery that there are times when people we're not hearing from everybody that we need to move maybe even programmatically if you want to call it that that justice just has to go forward even when the reconciliation is not.

Or maybe you just say the gap is larger. How do you how do you apply that framework to something horrible like American slavery. Okay so if I'm being very generous here and this is I'm being generous the racial reconciliation racial justice.

I don't care about either of those things either. There is nonsense. It's it's totally loaded with all kinds of you know things that are completely false. But when it comes to just let's just say justice in general and what this guy's presenting as reconciliation which is sort of like this feel-good sort of consensus right.

That's kind of what he's putting forward. He's saying you can't have justice without the feel-good consensus that's his position. Unless everyone basically agrees with it and everyone's been invited to the table and everyone's kind of move.

You know you know you know we decided together that's the reconciliation. And then you can have justice. You can know you have justice and you know you're not seeking revenge and stuff like that because everyone's together and has this reconciliation consensus.

That's the position this crazy person is putting forward. And this guy's saying no no you can move forward with justice regardless of what people think. Now again I don't agree with him because he's talking about made-up kinds of justice.

But let's just be generous. I got to be honest with you. This guy is a lunatic and this guy's right. This guy's a lunatic and this guy's right. I disagree with both of these men but in the terms of this debate if I'm being very generous this man's 100 right.

You can do the right thing you can do justice regardless of what people think about it. And so the perfect example that that's on everybody's minds on Twitter right now is this whole idea about doing justice on the abortion issue regardless of what Jews have to say about it because Jews modern Jews really love their abortion.

Right. They're sick. It's absolutely sick to see this. They say it's part of my religion. You know a lot of Jews out there saying look my religion demands that I have access to abortion that I can commit abortions and things like well yeah I'm sure it does because you worship Moloch.

But I don't need to reach a consensus with those psychopathic Jews that think abortion is essential to their religion in order to do the right thing on abortion which is to make it punishable as murder.

It should be a death penalty offense if you kill your child. That's what it should be and it shouldn't be like you know maybe it's a death penalty offense if you kill your child in an aggravated way. No no it's it's life for life.

You kill your own child and we find you guilty on the evidence of two or more witnesses. That should be a death penalty offense. That's what justice demands. And it's not me in my brain thinking justice demands that that's what the Lord says.

That's what God says in his Word. Killing your own child is such an abomination that he says in the scripture that it's not. He's never been even been in his mind. He's never commanded such a thing nor has it entered his mind that you would kill your own child.

And so I don't care. And no Christian should care. What Jews think about abortion law. Nobody cares because they don't define what justice is in abortion. And a consensus with them does not define what justice is in an abortion.

There is one person who defines what justice is in the case of an abortion. And that is the Lord Jesus Christ the Messiah. He rules and reigns. He tells us what's what he is the lawgiver. And so this man is right if I'm being generous because they're talking about nonsense here but in a theoretical sense he's right.

If you agree with him on racial stuff like that you know the nonsense you know parts of the racial justice then you would agree with this guy because this guy's this guy's this guy's absolute this guy is giving us a position that we can't really know what justice is unless we talk to black people.

It's basically the point is what he's trying to put forward. And that's not true. That's not true at all and so anyway. But yeah that's the bottom line. I mean I envision a country a nation that when we're setting up our institutions and our laws we do not do it in reference to Hindus or Jews or Muslims that we don't make any accommodations for what they think is right.

Because they don't decide what's right. There's only one who decides that's the Lord. That's why Christian nationalism is necessary. It's necessary. So I don't care if Jews want to live in a Christian nation that just that's no that's no concern to me by the way they would want to live in a Christian nation.

They do. They want to because obviously God's law is it's so good that it creates these societies that thrive and people want to be a part of a thriving society. They don't want to necessarily submit to God but they want to be a part of the blessing that a society gets when they submit to God.

And then they come and then they ruin it and exploit it. And we can't let that cycle happen over and over and over again. We can't let non-christians come and ruin the blessings that we have from God by subverting our own commitments.

And this is not just Jews that do this is that this is this is this is something that happens all the time. You read about it in the scripture you know Israel was corrupted by the nations many times. Why.

Because they saw how righteous Israel's law was. They saw the blessings of God that God had given to Israel. They saw all that they wanted in on that blessings. They didn't want in on Christ. They wanted in on the blessings.

And then they enticed Israel away from God to serve their gods to kill their own children again. You killing children is typically part of this. This is how they operate. This is what they love to do.

They want to serve Moloch but they want the blessings of God. They want to serve Baal but they want the blessings of God. And so they kind of hitch themselves to a nation that's that's that's that's getting God's blessings.

And then they try to entice them to serve and worship Moloch. Thus ruining everything that has been created. I don't want I don't want non-christians to have massive influence on our culture on our nation.

That's this should be standard this is not.

Controversial. It's not so. What. You know we're talking about something different today than back in slavery. That praise God. Yeah. Okay so slavery. Definitely. We need a civil war civil rights movement.

We needed a political power political.

Movement we didn't need a civil war to end slavery. We didn't. This guy this guy is this guy's a mess he's a mess. We didn't need a civil war to end slavery as evidenced by every other country who ended slavery without one.

So that's just completely false. Guy doesn't know what he's talking about. The challenge today.

Because if you think about the challenge today not very very not very Jim Crow ism through all that was our people of color african-americans Hispanic Americans human that's the question people had in our I mean that's I mean we attribute like that your treatment is less than human that is not the major.

Question today you ask people that wasn't the question back then either. Our.

People of color human I was gonna say yeah of course. How dare you ask me that question. The question today is how do we overcome our centuries of racial abuse in a way that people think is fair and that's where you get your disagreement.

So you're right. There are times in which you got to do the military or political or or you know there are times where you have those sort of overt discrepancies that they're only what you could do is just change.

Very clear but it's not quite as clear how we move forward in a way that's fair and that's why you know we're looking at a different challenge and we we can't do.

What we did totally clear. You just gotta submit yourself as well. That's it. You're 20. It's totally clear how to move forward. You submit yourself to God's rule. And God's law has very very clear things to say about this kind of thing.

You don't punish the children for the sins of the father. It's very simple very simple. You don't punish the children for the sins of the father. It's very hard when you're trying to you know quite frankly worship and serve other gods at the same time as you worship Christ.

That's that. And that's what makes it hard when you're trying to serve other gods too. That's helpful. The one thing I.

Would say it's not helpful though even though I agree that if you were to ask people about the humanity of black or brown people that they would give you an affirming answer. I think the question is is is there a perception of equal value that's evidenced in people's behavior.

And so do we see responses to people where there'd be attitude driven responses or where there'd be degrees of engagement in energy like we see in health care. And so. I think that the equal humanity in every way that matters of black brown white people in our society is very much in question today and not just about kind of just the legacy of like kind of institutional implications of historic racism.

But how does bias play out in life in life prospects what it means in terms of one's ability to flourish and so. And that is a formational issue. That's that's a hard issue. In some ways it's a hard issue we don't have enough time to talk about kind of the sociology of bias and but but I do think that we need to recognize that when black people are perceived that they're not perceived as white people in our society is I don't know if there we go this man has figured.

It out. Black people. When you see a black person you don't see a white person. I think we'll have to end it there. This guy is a genius. When you see a black person you don't see a white person. That's what perception means.

Is this is not does it not. And all right. Well it's 30 minutes in. We are done for today. I hope you found this video helpful. God bless.