AD Earnestly Apologizes to the Audience - Part 6

All right, everybody. Welcome back to the channel. It is Friday. So happy Friday I hope you have a good weekend planned coming up.

One of my son's birthdays is this weekend We're gonna have a great time got we got MetSpring training starting tomorrow.

We got hockey I mean man the Rangers they are just they're just killing it right now nine game win streak

You know, we had a kind of a typical New York sports lull where we kind of fell behind a little bit

But since then we've won nine in a row and it's been it's been fun It's been fun to watch in any case.

I wanted to get back to this own strong stuff. It's been a I've been enjoying it I think it's been beneficial to a lot of people

But what I didn't want to address one thing one thing, you know Someone asked me what is the big deal here?

Why are you dedicating so much time to this? You know, whatever you disagree with Owen who cares who cares, you know, it's not that big a deal and You know,

I think I think that there's some truth to that But there's but there's also a reason why I'm doing it.

So so the disagreement itself, you know, Owen represent his positions I think represent a lot of people

And they they might not be as consistent as Owen is because they can you know They would realize it's kind of ridiculous to say that for example

Righteousness in the New Covenant doesn't exalt a nation like that's completely preposterous and ridiculous

Most people won't say that but Owen, you know, he's a scholar. He's trying to be consistent, whatever But at the end of the day the disagreement really isn't that big a deal

You know, I've disagreed with Christians on this kind of thing for a long time and I don't make a big deal out of it

It's not a big deal. We can still be brothers. We can still have fellowship. We could still hang out I mean, you know, it's all fun. You know what I mean?

In fact, we're still on the same team a lot of the time the reason why I'm focusing on this with Owen is because of He doesn't just believe this stuff.

He actively works against Christians, you know, essentially, you know trying to claim the state for Christ because it is he's got crown rights over that right

And so we you know in our country, we have an opportunity to participate in the way It's governed at least in a small way at least in a superficial way

But but you know the local level in a real way and we ought to be doing those things We ought to be doing those things for the

Lord We ought to be doing those things self -consciously as Christians and he works against that so often

I think here's here's here's where the rub is you know the guys at eschatology matters did a follow -up to this video and they were kind of doing like a debrief like a postgame show talking about the conversation and if you haven't seen that already give it a watch because The whole thing is good.

But the beginning was so good because they they pointed out that Owen called our perspective

Dangerous. He says it's not it's not just that he disagrees. It's dangerous and And the guys in the conversation were like, well, why why is this dangerous?

Okay, you don't like it. You think it's dangerous Why what is so dangerous about it? Why do you have to dedicate? you know sweet conference time to trying to destroy the people that are part of it and and quite frankly that Conference time was dedicated to really slander a lot of the people that are part of it

And and I mean like the objective definition of slander not like the I don't like it and these guys, you know

They're not that smart like that's different but I'm talking about like the actual saying we believe things that we don't actually believe like that kind of thing in order to Destroy us or hurt our reputations.

So anyway, I guess it's libel because it would be it's vocal. But anyway, whatever whatever that's not the point That's the problem.

That's the problem. You know, Owen's positions here are Are you know, they're not correct, but they're fine

I mean, I wouldn't make a big deal of it. Lots of people believe this stuff But the point is though that he's not only saying these things

But he's also trying to try to hurt The reputation of honest good Christians who are out there and they're putting in work, right they're putting in work for Christ in the civil

Realm, you know to me not just in the church realm and the ecclesiastical, you know

Discipline but in other disciplines and and they ought to be encouraged especially now, especially in our time now in 2024

They ought to be encouraged not looked at sideways, you know suspiciously and oh, they're so dangerous, you know that kind of thing

So that's the big deal with Owen. I think that that's why I'm doing the videos you know, I think it's very clear to see the things that he says are pretty preposterous, but but what

I want to Emphasize here is not only are the things he's saying preposterous, but the things we're saying even if you don't agree with them

They are worthy of a legitimate hearing. They are worthy of a legitimate conversation and we're not heretics, obviously obviously, you know,

I gotta do is look at the Vast way that that that Stephen Wolfe just leans on the historic reformed fathers like He's putting out this book and he's just like I have not seen a book that leans more heavily on that stuff

In recent times then than his book and so it's just you know, they call it a retrieval.

That's what they call It is a retrieval. It's a retrieval not everything you learned in mrs. Jeffrey's, you know elementary school

But the reason I say mrs. Jeffrey's because that was my teacher and I was in elementary school Mrs. Jeffrey, she was a good teacher too.

She's a Christian do actually but not everything I learned from mrs. Jeffrey's about the civil government and how it ought to work and what's moral in the civil government not everything

I learned there was Correct, and so we have a better way, you know, we have a better way Anyway, let's let's continue.

I'm Totally bereft of any understanding of how that happens. How does the Conway get baptized? you actually were the argument can't help but go to my

Vantage point because the argument would be made. There's lots of people getting baptized Individuals getting baptized.

That's actually the point. I'm making The huge number of individuals someone could say

I'm not on their side But they could say that means then that the city itself got baptized and I'm saying no

The city didn't get baptized a whole lot of people got baptized. Praise God for that But but it's not that Conway got baptized and now

Conway is You know joining a church and now Conway is Under -disciplined when

Conway acts badly. No, there's it's just it's just so it's so Is it pedantic?

Is that the word because I learned that word in Seinfeld. Is it pedantic? Is that the right he's being pedantic here.

Let's look it up There's no sense of that. I bought. Yeah, it's pedantic. That's what it is

I learned that word in Seinfeld that I used it correctly. It's but he's being pedantic Pedantic is an insulting word used to describe someone who annoys others by correcting small errors caring too much about minor details or Emphasizing their own expertise, especially in something narrow or boring of subject matter

I think that applies to Owen pretty pretty well because here's the thing, you know when I say Keene is playing

Brattleboro tomorrow and ice hockey. We all know that this whole city is not playing

Brattleboro We understand that at the city the team representing the city is playing the team representing the other city

We understand that with New York is playing Miami. We know that the whole state is not representing.

It's not playing Miami We understand that it's the Jets that are about to get their teeth kicked in by by the

Dolphins. We get it and So this is the point. It's like yes, of course the people there are getting baptized because you baptize people

We get that but a nation Cannot be separated from people

Because a nation is comprised of people a particular people. That's the point

He could be pedantic. He could be pedantic. I remember when Jerry George used that word in Seinfeld He didn't he didn't know what it meant.

He was just kind He could be pedantic In the

New Covenant era and this is a Presbyterian system This is a pedo -baptist system more broadly than Presbyterian.

This is a pedo There's a formalism to Christian nationalism, for example, that it's just not going to be found in a

Baptist context It doesn't work because we don't we only we only baptize those who profess faith consciously

We don't we don't just baptize people So CN as numerous folks on the

CN side have have said they've admitted it Stephen Wolfe admitted it publicly It fits elegantly within a

Presbyterian framework, it doesn't work for a Baptist framework That's not exactly what Stephen Wolfe said, but I do understand his point because I you know,

I I'm a Baptist I guess because I go to a Baptist Church. So technically I'm a Baptist but by confession

I believe what Presbyterians believe that's what I would believe right? So I understand

I I think Presbyterian I think everything fits better in Presbyterian. That's why I'm a Presbyterian I believe the

Bible teaches it and because it's the truth everything fits better with Presbyterianism But that's not what exactly what

Stephen Wolfe said. He said that his conception of this is from a Presbyterian perspective and he's not even going to try to make any effort into putting it making it fit into Baptist Perspectives because he's not a

Baptist. That's what he said. He said I make no effort to do it because I'm a Presbyterian So it's not exactly what he said and I'm sure if you asked him you would say yeah

It fits way better with Presbyterianism because of how he understands Presbyterianism So but there are lots of Baptists that are that are that are looking at you know

How exactly this would work and what steps you would need to take and they're working on these problems right now

In fact, there are many Christian nationalists, of course who are Baptists and have no plans on becoming

Presbyterian There are some Christian nationalists who in my opinion, I won't name any names Are probably planning on becoming

Presbyterian soon, even if they don't know it yet Anyway Anyway, but yeah,

I mean not exactly what he said But it's not I'm thinking toward I'm thinking toward like Ephesus for example

So you have you have Ephesus doing quite well early on and then they're singled out, you know in the letters to the revelation

When you have a conception of let me ask you a twofold question on this So like number one, you know, one of the things that one of the guys said in the post game show on this on eschatology matters

He says nations have been baptized in the Bible. They have what about the nation of Israel when they won't pass through the waters

They were baptized And I gotta say yeah Amen, even the children they were all baptized

But it says in the Bible, but it's in the New Testament. It says that there's so much here.

I think One of the problems I think that a lot of people have noticed this that have been have been messaging me and saying this is that You know, oh and I'm sure he's you know

He's worked really hard and he's read a lot of stuff and written a lot of stuff and he knows certain things very well

But one thing he's very bad at is seeing the the the forest right he can see certain trees

But seeing the forest itself is is not a skill and and honestly I believe that's probably pretty true of a lot of PhDs, you know a lot of PhDs They're very good at seeing a tree or a couple trees, but the forest itself often escapes them

Do you see any sense in which a corporate people in the New Testament and I'm trying to be careful with the language because I Don't want to say nation but in the sense of a corporate people are judged as a corporate unit

So for example, you've got the church at Ephesus and we could talk about the fact that it is the church in Ephesus It's being addressed not the entire town, you know point taken before you made it

I know you'd probably say so but but just think you know But just thinking through that like it wasn't the whole church that had forgotten its first love

Was it some in the church or the majority of the church to which the church could be judged? I'm just wondering number one

Would you see any sort of corporate responsibility in the New Testament where a people can be either praised or judged?

Whereas even though a hundred percent of them are not in line with that if that's kind of making sense

But then my second no, go ahead. Go ahead. Don't mention the fact and it's a good question But I think

I know how Owen's going to address it and from his perspective It'll make a little bit of sense But but but in the

New Testament a lot of people have pointed this out to me as well that Israel was judged in The New Testament time in that kind of you know, you know transition time

Israel was judged in the New Testament Does that mean that every? Israelite was judged and everyone or our

Ezra as your light had not converted to Christ and every single one down to the down to The animals were we're being judged because they were all doing the same.

No, of course not We understand that we understand what it means Sorry Absolutely, you know what the you know what the

The body the Representational body change is between old and new old does deal in nations new deals and churches you just Sorry, but you

I'm not trying to do a gotcha, but you just you just that's the point. I'm trying to make okay That's how

God approach It's it's not Josh to be to be clear returning to a prior question of yours a very good question a just question to quote

Lord of the Rings It's not so much that the New Testament says hey guys now we're not dealing with in nations anymore.

It's not really like that It's kind of like a little bit of a strange connection polygamy in the Old Testament It's not like God really comes out and says a whole lot about polygamy

Explicitly and directly God does this? It is that God deals in the

New Covenant with churches. That's the focus Nations still exist large groups of people still exist

I'm not I'm not gonna say that that's not a category of the New Testament, but God's dealings are not with Given nations

God's dealings God's focus is on churches That those are the bodies of people that that are in view

And yes, you do have the you do have Corinth being treated as a block

Did everybody at Corinth approve of the man and sin with his father's wife, for example, probably not

But there is a corporate element there Definitely, but it's the church level and that's what the

Great Commission yields. I I'm arguing That's that's what is supposed to be formed we're not called to form as our marching orders

I mean Christian nations God claimed the concept of the

Holy Nation. He is building it. No man can build it You can pass a thousand great laws

You can be theonomistic or not Theonomistic pass a thousand wonderful laws that I would agree with and you would agree with in terms of their moral content

You haven't made anything a Christian nation The Holy Nation is being made by God Jesus is the king

So, uh, you know Well, so I mean that's his position.

We've we've already kind of very made that he's made that very clear This is you need to understand that what

Owen is saying is in contrast to the reformed tradition Owen has stepped away from the reformed fathers the reformed tradition and he's saying something different now

He didn't invent it, but he's saying something different and that's there's nothing there's nothing wrong with that per se

But there is but he but he almost acts as if as if this is the automatic this is the standard because you know the way he treats, you know guys like Stephen Wolfe and and others

As if they're like these new heretics and they're like they have this new weird

Doctrine the way he treats them is is as if this is not part of the reformed tradition and really

Owens Standing in the reformed tradition look at I'm not one of these guys that care so much I'm more reformed than you you're more informed than me

I don't really care about that so much But a little humility would be would go a long way

Owen and I think that's why it's so important to address Owen because his Perspective is not unique and it's not that crazy, whatever

But the way he goes about trying to flip the script right trying to rewrite history trying to retcon the reformers is is is is problematic for me, you know what

I mean, and I feel so Man I just used the word problematic in a non -ironic way and I just have to say forgive me

Forgive me you will never hear me say that word again on this channel. I Hope anyway, but that's the point

That's the point. It's like okay you disagree with it That's all the hat but a little humility a little humility because you're the one

Who's kind of stepped away here? You're the one who sees this differently now.

That's you. That's not us and and quite frankly If you if you see it differently,

I really don't care I'm not gonna make a big deal out of it But trying to stop trying to pretend like we're all kinness racist evil bigots because we agree with the what the reformers

Thought about this topic Let me let me let me find the common ground there cuz like on the one hand

I would you know Dividing wall of hostility broken down in Christ, right? Yes. Yes, and amen. There's there's no division between Jew and Greek Etc, etc.

So on that sense, I I like Josh shower cuz he's got the lingo down You know, he you know when you're when you're having one of these kinds of conversations

And you agree with something that your opponent says you got to say yes and amen. That's how you say. Yes and amen That's how you do it.

And and the message is received, you know, I mean when you say yes and amen your opponent He knows it.

All right. All right, we can play ball here. You know what I mean? That's the thing that that's why Josh showers perfect for this conversation and a guy like me is not

I got like he's not cuz I I might know the lingo, but I don't use it So oh and here's what

I say and he's like, well, this guy might be an enemy You don't even that good Josh Howard hats off to you, but I'm hearing you and it maybe

I'm maybe I'm misreading this but it's almost a continuity discontinuity thing Where you see nations in the the

Old Testament Nations are very clearly judged and called to repent I don't see that abrogated in the

New Testament and in my position would be I think that's carried over into the New Testament We can even see it just in the way history has shaken out

You know what? I mean? We can see God come in calamity, right? We can see God, you know come and bless right?

We can see you know nations rise and fall and we can see all of this stuff even in just the course of history and How things are going, you know, it's no mistake that the degradation of the

United States has has come with moral rot, right? it's come with moral rot and of course that leads to economic rot that leads to Climate rot and all kinds of different things right all kinds of disasters that the

Lord is Putting on to the United States Because of our disregard of him completely as a nation, of course as a nation

And so yeah I mean I get Owen can be consistent here and he could never again say, you know God's gonna judge the

United States or God's gonna bless the United States or like he can do that if he wants But I just don't think that's that's gonna land with most regular, you know,

Pew sitting Christians. We understand quite Intuitively that a nation that does dishonors

God can only expect calamity can only expect calamity They come in judgment and and we see what those judgments look like in the scripture a nation that honors

God Righteousness exalts a nation we can see that God will come with blessing blessings and curses blessings for obedience curses for disobedience

There is no abrogation of that. We should we should expect no abrogation of that. That doesn't make sense

Given what we we know from the scripture and what we see in history as well But you know

Owens welcome to that do have a people of God, you know first Peter to your chosen people a royal priesthood a holy nation

Using language from the Old Testament there's always been a cohesive people of God and yet nations have always risen and fallen based on whether they whether they

Fight the Sun Psalm 2 and again not not getting into the Psalm 2 thing But that's just how I would I was sort of see that but you mentioned at the end there

About the the adjective of Christian and I know you've walked through this before with others, but I'm just curious

When you when you see that word Christian because this is one thing that I think throws a lot of us off Sometimes there's somebody will speak about a

Christian school or a Christian family But then they will in the next breath affirm

Essentially that Christian can only be a noun and I don't want to read in anything into what you're saying

So I'd love I'd love to share your thoughts on that But from my perspective Christians both it's a noun and it's an adjective you can have

Christian things for example Christian laws Did I just get a background going on my? Wow, what in the world was that?

It's kind of cool zoom is possessed. That was that that was that glitter that they put at at Bethel Church, you know, and Man yeah, he's making a great point.

I hope you didn't miss it because there's always been a cohesive people of God all the way from the

Old Covenant to now There was also at the same time. There was also nations and that honored

God or didn't and So that hasn't changed Owen just said yeah, there's still nations that still exist

It just doesn't make sense that God would now no longer deal with nations as well in a did in addition to is dealing with his people because There's a lot of continuity there.

Now. There's some differences, of course Because the Gentiles have been grafted in and we understand that and there's a new man and all that we get that But there's also some continuity as well good point man, what just happened

Wow, I'm gonna have to edit that out. Sorry about that Right Did I make a good point and zoom approved

If zoom is on my side, that's not actually good from my perspective. I don't want you have one zoom over No, I'm sorry getting getting back to what

I was saying this so noun and adjective and I just love to hear your thoughts on that because I I'm sensing that that's a little bit of this conversation

Can you have a Christian nation and I know you're angling toward no on that But can you talk about anything beyond the individual

Christian noun? Can you talk about anything beyond that as a Christian family school slash whatever that might look like?

Yeah, that's a very good question as well. I agree. Um, you know is England. Here's a great

Real -life test case is England a Christian nation Yes in one sense right because it's technically

Anglican People are technically members of the Anglican Church. I think that's still happening

I'm not entirely sure how that's all playing out, but certainly over its past post Henry the 8th

Christian nation seemingly Is England a Christian nation,

I mean It's it's got a formal Identification. That's not a that's not up for debate.

It is Is it a Christian nation in the sense of a new tip the Holy Nation of first Peter to nine

This is me. No, whatsoever So this is where I think it's so fuzzy the concept of what a

Christian nation is is so fuzzy because we're not in an era when we're supposed to identify nations as Christian or not.

It doesn't work in the New Covenant. It worked in the Old Covenant There is there's profound discontinuity here because that needs to be acknowledged even as there's real continuity in terms of the citations as you

Nicely pointed out there first Peter to the language, but all the citations, you know

Express is extreme continuity all of the Old Testament citations in the New Testament express an extreme continuity

But you need to understand That dr. Owen Strawn is telling you there's an extreme discontinuity.

Why? Why There is a discontinuity and we can talk about that But why would it now mean that righteousness no longer exalts a nation?

I think that's one you need to explain a little bit. Dr. Owen Strawn That's a big one

No, righteousness does not exalt the nation Israel had a mandate from God to be it's

To be God's people the nation did There was a king that you know initially wasn't

Prompted by God that was prompted by the people, but then God appointed a kingship There was a dimension of the law that is sometimes called the civic law that that's not a biblical term

We don't have to use that I don't actually hold to the tripartite division of the law But there are certainly elements of the

Old Testament law that adhere to the civic life of the nation. Yes None of that carries into the

New Testament there's no instructions for You know an ethno state or something like that or even or even a beyond ethno state there's no setup given by which there's now a

Political entity of a Christian nation. I mean, okay, so that's because like Jesus so good

That's because Jesus is the king this is This is because of the political nature of the church it feels like not just the king though Owen because that coffee mug verse

That becomes just a coffee mug verse in your system Actually has meaning behind it, you know a coffee mug verse

It means a verse that you really doesn't have any meaning but it sounds really good The coffee mug verse is he's the king.

All right, but he's the king of all the Kings He's the Lord of all the

Lords He's the king of the Kings. He's the Lord of the Lords So it's not just that he's king.

He's king of Kings He's king of other Kings and those other

Kings it says in the New Testament are his servants They're his servants.

It says do not seek vengeance Vengeance is mine says the Lord by the way, my

Avenger is not a direct quotation This is the the ad abridged version my

Avenger is the civil magistrate That's the other Kings that I'm the king of I'm the king of those

Kings and vengeance is mine And I say that my Avenger is is those are those Kings are those

Lords? Punish evildoer terror to evildoers guess who gets to define evildoers the king of the

Kings does not the Kings the king of the Kings does The Kings get to carry it out and they get to figure out how to carry it out

Right, and there's some leeway there. There's some but there's some instruction there too. Don't get me wrong There's I'm a theonomist. So there's some instruction there too, but there's some leeway there, right?

There's some there's some there's some prudence that has to go into that But he's the king of the

Kings and he's the Lord of the Lords It's not just that he's the king Oh, he's the king that that coffee mug verse is actually much more than a coffee mug verse and in Owen's system

I think it becomes just a coffee mug for sure But really what he's really concerned with is the elders he's the king of the elders really

In Owen's system. I think the king of Kings and Lord of Lords becomes king of Elder of elders and deacon of deacons.

That's what I think it becomes That's what I think it becomes And I had that argument made against me, but now

I'm the one making it Jesus has claimed Kingship you you can't belong to a

Christian nation now Unless you're saved by grace through faith alone in Christ alone

England is not a Christian it by the way England being let's just let's just play the other science game.

Sorry real quick England's a Christian nation. Okay, I'll admit it for a second here. What's that? What exactly is that getting?

What? it Christian nationalists act like if we embrace their their argument

The world is is just going to become so wonderful and great Being being formally

Christian hasn't saved England from having Transgender priests if yes, but the thing is like we understand of course

Owen because we're not pedantic We understand though that like being a

Christian Church doesn't save anybody from being a transgender priest unless That church is acting righteously and is doing the things that Christ has commanded that that church to do

Cleaning house when necessary church discipline as a rule That is what we do.

We do church discipline at this church and we do it according to God's standard We do it for a for for the

Lord, right? We do it for the Lord and in the same way England being a formerly

Christian nation doesn't do much unless you actually rule and reign England for Christ and righteously

And so no if United States just randomly said hey, we're a Christian nation It wouldn't be like you snap your finger and everything's fine.

No, there's a lot of work to do You got to have the the the the the goals, but you also have to have the willingness to do it

You got to get your hands dirty. You got to have the Ezra's right? You got to have the Ezra's who knows what's right who knows what to do who knows that the people shouldn't be intermarried

But then you also need to have the governor you need to have the Nehemiah Who's gonna go and crack some skulls until the people admit?

All right, I'm gonna stop intermarrying now I'm sick of having my beard pulled out. I'm sick of having me.

I'm sick of getting beatings So I'm gonna stop intermarrying because we had a governor who not only knew what to do and what was right

But had the will to do it who had the will to get his hands dirty. And so England as an example

Formerly Christian nation has no balls Has no cojones does not have the will to do what ought to be done

And so it's worthless Just like the the the the liberal church down the street is worthless

Because they don't care what Christ says they don't care and if they do they don't have the will to do what Christ says

They don't love they have no love for the Lord, that's what I mean, how do you how do you abide in the love of Christ? Do what

Christ says? How do you buy the love of Christ you do what Christ says? What what exalts a nation its righteousness according to Christ's standards you do what

Christ says? So it's not enough for England to profess Like Ezra that there's certain things that we do here and we know what to do

I'm not saying that Ezra was wrong because we need people like that who? Know what to do and all that kind of thing, but you can't just have an

Ezra You need also a man of action. I'm not saying Ezra was not a man of that That's a bad example because the

Ezra wasn't the governor so it really wasn't his role But you need governors to you need a solid church who knows what's right?

You also need solid governors who have the will and the ability and the

Make that like the the Constitution really and I don't mean like the US Constitution. I mean they're built a certain way to do what needs to be done and That's the difference.

That's the difference. We'll let Owen have the last word Terrible marriage and all sorts of horrible things in society

Josh I think the whole CN thing is is an understandable but misguided attempt at finding

Hope in in a very dark time and I think honestly the CN project leads people in a very dangerous way

It leads them to find their hope in Christianization and not in Christ Christ is the object of our hope

Christ is the King Christ is building the Holy Nation The Holy Nation is not composed of people who live in a given area it's composed of exiles

So, all right, we will stop there I have stuff to say about that But I said I would let

Owen have the last word and I do not intend to go back on that Hope you had a good week, and I hope you have a good weekend plan once again

Forgive me for using the word problematic in an unironic way won't happen again Hope you found a good help.