December 19, 2022 Show with Will Dobbie on “From Everlasting to Everlasting: Every Believer’s Biography” (Part 1)

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Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living

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We're listening to The Alliance streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday

on this 19th day of December 2022, and I'm thrilled to

have on the program for the very first time, Will Dobby, who is

teaching pastor of Emanuel Church of Knoxville, Tennessee, and today we're

going to be addressing his book, From Everlasting to Everlasting, Every Believer's Biography,

and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Will Dobby.

Chris, thank you very much.

Great to be here.

It is my honor and joy, and before we go into your

personal salvation testimony, which is something that we have a tradition here of doing whenever we

have a first -time guest, which obviously you are one, and

before we do that, I'd like you to tell our listeners about Emanuel Church of Knoxville, Tennessee.

Sure, I'd love to.

It's a little baby, brand -new church plant.

It's about 12 weeks old.

We launched in mid -September.

We're not impressive, but we rejoice in having a very impressive God.

We rent Fellowship Hall in downtown Knoxville.

I mean, it's an exciting, strategic place to plant.

Despite being in the Bible Belt, Knoxville is one of America's 10 fastest -growing cities.

People are flooding into it from all over the country and even all over the world, and yeah,

we're just holding out the word of life as best we can.

Yeah, I really loved visiting Knoxville not long ago.

I was at the Fight, Laugh, Feast conference that was conducted

by CrossPolitik, and I got to meet a whole bunch of new folks

while there, and one of whom has actually become an advertiser very, very recently on the

program, thanks be to God.

So I am really looking forward to returning at some point to Knoxville.

I really enjoyed that city very much.

Yeah, it's a great place to be.

I mean, as a church as well, let me add, we've got a special heart for students.

We're on the edge of the UT campus, University of Tennessee, almost 30 ,000 students.

And maybe a little more distinctively as well, we've got a real heart for special -needs families.

I've got two boys.

The oldest has diagnosed multiple special needs, and maybe the younger two.

So yeah, we're not impressive, but we are seeing just heartwarming things happening in our little

congregation.

You should come and visit sometime.

Yeah, and tell us something a little bit more specifically about the theological makeup and whether

you are paedo -baptist or baptist and etc.

We're reformed, I'm glad to say, and I regard mode of baptism as a

secondary issue, important but secondary.

All are welcome at Emmanuel Knoxville.

I grew up in the Church of England, so paedo -baptist, and then subsequently, while I was at seminary,

being paid for by the Church of England, so this was slightly awkward, was persuaded by the scriptures that actually

credo -baptism makes much more sense.

And so that's what I preach and teach at Emmanuel.

Well, I'm thrilled to hear that myself.

No apologies needed, because I'm a professional reformed Baptist myself, a member of

Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, and although I do love my paedo -baptist

brethren and have interviewed many, many, many paedo -baptists who are pastors,

theologians, seminary professors, authors, etc.

So I do agree with you that that seems to be

very palpably the biblical mode and the biblical subjects

of baptism would be believers, repentant believers.

If anybody wants more information about this congregation, go to enox

.org, and that's E -K -N -O -X dot org, and we'll be repeating that later on in

the program.

Well, as I said, we have a tradition here where whenever we have a first -time guest, that guest

gives a summary of his or her salvation testimony, including the

kind of providential circumstances our Sovereign Lord raised up in your life that drew you to himself

and saved you.

So let's hear your story.

I was born into a Christian family.

I mean, what an amazing blessing and privilege to have Christian parents.

I think they would say they weren't really going for it spiritually until one day when I was about maybe

five, my dad, who was working in central London, came under the preaching ministry of

a man called Dick Lucas in St. Helen's Church, Bishopsgate, a conservative, evangelical,

wonderful church.

And it was really when the scriptures were opened up to him that his heart was set on fire just through

faithful expository preaching, and our family was never the same again.

I grew up as a complacent, self -righteous, legalistic,

smug, antinomian, and about at the age of 12, one night,

having heard the gospel many, many times, I decided at the last minute on a whim to go along to

a gospel event that my dad had organized.

And I went partly for the free chocolate after the talk and partly to hang out with others who I knew would be there.

And that night, I had a short talk simply explaining the work of the cross, and there was no new information for me.

As a piece of rhetoric, very unremarkable.

And yet, that was the night that I was supernaturally convicted for the very first

time of my sin and of a desperate desire to honor God

and have eternal life.

I remember being badly shaken, heading back late that night to my bedroom.

And it's one of those memories where, because it was so significant, everything is still.

Vivid.

I can see it in my mind's eye.

I knelt by my bed, could remember the layout of my room and the wallpaper, that kind of thing, and, yeah, begged

God to accept me on the basis of Christ's death for my sin.

And I think I prayed a simple prayer to that effect about three times back to back, just to be certain.

I think by God's grace, I've never looked back.

I haven't had times of persistence, like running from the Lord.

I'm an oldest child, so maybe by personality, I'm more of a rule keeper.

And, you know, there have been many failures and slips, but God has been faithful.

I did music at college, then I went off and joined the army, and I was in the infantry as a platoon commander

during time in Iraq, where we saw combat and saw some people killed and wounded, including

people under my command on patrols that I was on.

I really found my faith deepening and becoming more urgent and

tested.

And by God's grace, he strengthened it.

And I then left, worked for St. Helens, that same church where my father had

first come across good expository preaching.

I worked for them for a year, went to seminary.

Became an assisted pastor.

We adopted the first of our boys, then got offered to plant a church in

London, went and did that.

We adopted the second of our boys, led that church for about eight, nine years, was convinced I'd do that for the rest

of my life.

And then through a series of events, the Lord threw us a curveball, and here we are in East Tennessee.

My wife's American.

That's kind of what we're doing here.

Is that the kind of thing you're after, Chris?

Yes.

I always find it fascinating when a guest tells me before the age of 12 how self

-righteous they were, and antinomian on top of it.

Well, I just thought I had eternal fire insurance because I had lots of Bible knowledge and because I was

a good little church boy.

And looking back, what a terrifying mindset to have.

Thank goodness God had mercy on me.

Yes, and from the way you described it, I'm assuming that you would agree with me, especially since you're a

Reformed Baptist, or Reformed and Baptistic, if you prefer that.

But I'm sure you would agree with me that parents and pastors have to be

very careful when they are examining the profession of a

young child.

Perhaps the child desires to be baptized, and your experience

seems to be something very unusual in the way you described it, the level of

grief over sin and that sort of thing.

Most of the time, I think that young children are parroting

their parents or their friends at church or their pastor, and they just know that

everybody around them is going to be happy and going to celebrate any kind of decision to follow Christ

publicly, and they may just be going along with it because it's something they're getting a kick

out of.

And so I'm assuming that you would agree that your kind of experience at such a tender age is not

something that's normal.

Yeah, I think it's healthy to err on the side of waiting before baptizing

children.

You know, the Lord alone knows the heart, but time does give increasing evidence of conversion or otherwise.

And I think I, myself, and the people who knew me best and were around me would have been convinced I was saved

when I was 11, when I was 10, when I was 9.

Looking back, I'm pretty confident that I was super, super close, but not over the line

until I was 12.

And then, you know, making your parents' faith your own, like you say, is a transition that happens.

And although a person could be saved, I think they then have to continue making the faith of their parents and other

people around them who they respect their own.

I went through another phase at college.

I remember, yeah, wrestling with my faith, having a bit of a crisis first time I was away from home.

And wrestling, in particular, over just once again, you know, would I

spiritually just hang on to my parents' coattails, or would I make their faith my own?

And so, yeah, that's the long answer to say I would agree.

Yes.

And we praise God with you for rescuing you at such a young age.

Now, was this St. Helen's Anglican Church, was it theologically

reformed?

Because I have interviewed quite a number of Anglicans and also quite a

number of evangelicals who are not themselves Anglican, but have written about great

Anglicans of history.

And I have grown to know that there are a lot of

divisions in Anglicanism.

You have those that are very Romish and Anglo -Catholic.

You have those that are evangelical but Arminian, and you have those that are absolutely apostate and

leftist.

So was that a reformed congregation, or how and when did you discover the doctrines of

sovereign grace and embrace them?

It was a reformed congregation.

I think it was maybe a little less reformed than it is now.

And I'm glad it's become more reformed.

There are some what I would regard as eccentricities about

Anglican reformed conservative evangelicalism, especially older generation.

So I would say it's probably even healthier now theologically than it was.

But Dick Lucas, this guy, was unbelievably used by the Lord to go to this congregation

of small single figures, I think in the late 60s, and just

transform it by preaching the word faithfully into what is now a congregation of

many hundreds, which is remarkable for post -Christian, post -modern, secular

Britain in terms of size and fruit.

Yes.

In fact, his name, I don't know why it sounds familiar, but the moment you

first

Great commentaries.

Yeah, that might be why he's done some good writing.

Well, perhaps I should get him on the show sometime.

And well, now it's come to the point where you have written this book,

From Everlasting to Everlasting, Every Believer's Biography.

And that subtitle is obviously very captivating.

Why don't you explain that?

Well, I'm overawed

still in my early 40s by the size of our God.

As a good Reformed pastor, I still have the hairs rise

on the back of my neck at times, so His Majesty and scale.

And as the psalm says, he is from everlasting to everlasting.

It says from everlasting to everlasting, you are God.

And part of his sovereignty is that he has written

a stunning, beautiful story for everyone and everything, but

in particular for his people.

And it's the story that we all get to live out stage by stage.

So really, this book is, I want to say to people who might read it, this is your own

biography.

Why don't you read about where God has led you, where he will lead you, where you are right now

on this path through the storm of life?

Yes, after I became theologically reformed in my understanding,

which was not long after my salvation, I was initially still

protesting against what I was hearing at the Reformed Baptist Church where I was saved.

Not loudly for other congregations to hear, but I was protesting it to my elders

privately.

And a member of the church, providentially from England, Nigel

Stone, who was originally from London before moving to America,

he gave me a booklet, George Whitefield's Letter to John Wesley on Election.

And at first, or should I say after I read it,

I was very angry because I said to myself, oh no, this is true, but I still hate it.

And then within about a couple of months, the Lord opened my eyes to not only see it as

truth, but to fall in love with it, the teachings.

But as soon as that concept became etched in my heart

and mind, I began to realize the Lord's hand on me

throughout my entire life and the providential circumstances that rose up here and there,

and how one thing led to another by his providence, the people that I met who shared the gospel with me,

and all these things, how they all came together by God's design for me to

finally come to embrace his son and his death on my behalf, and

his burial and resurrection, and his sinless life.

And I am very much aware of the fact that our

individual stories are stories that God has written,

just like David in the Psalms telling us that God knew every

page that was written in his book, meaning David's

book, before any of them came to be.

Yeah, and you're right, there is a sense in which we all have unique stories, but I think

in the West and in the 21st century, we can typically be so individualistic

and there's a deeper sense in which we all follow the same story, the one that begins with things like

the eternal covenant, and foreknowledge, and election, and ends with things like heaven and then the new creation.

And so I think this is a wonderfully unifying thing as well.

You know, it's good when people get over themselves as being the center of their story and realize that Christ

and the Father and the Spirit are the center of their story, that God is drawing his people together corporately

down this magnificent path to glory.

Amen, and that's one of the reasons why I'm glad that the Grace Baptist Church, where I'm a member, includes the

Psalter in our worship.

We're not exclusive Psalm singers, but we include the Psalter because it unites

the entire family of God, even from thousands of years ago

before Christ was even born.

His elect were singing these songs of praise, and I think it's very important that the

church today include those songs to further

bring that consciousness of unity with the body of Christ,

both here on earth and those in glory.

And it's wonderful to be united with our own brothers and sisters down history as well.

In Emanuel, we sometimes use ancient prayers, confessions, catechism, stretching back

centuries, and there's that feeling of solidarity.

We are one global universal people, whether we're in the church triumphant or the

church still here on earth, a militant, we are one because God is

one.

Amen.

So tell us about where your book begins, and I believe this is a devotional, is it not?

It is, but that's not to say that it's fluffy, at least I hope not.

I love what someone said about your radio station, Chris, how it's not meant to be fluffy,

and Proverbs 27, 17, right?

Iron sharpens iron.

So it is a devotional, but it's meant to be substantive, and in the introduction, I recommend people

might want to take not one but two days on each of the 30 steps.

So it begins with an introduction about the order of salvation,

otherwise known as the order salutis.

And this was really codified by Lutheran theologians in around the 1720s, but it's been

clearly on display in the scriptures from the very, very beginning.

Our God is a God of order, and the order of salvation is

the sort of pathway with significant stages on it that all believers pass

through.

So that's how the introduction starts, and then it goes through some

stages.

The classic reformed order of salvation contains about seven stages, and the book just expands on that,

uses that as the basic spine of the contents page, but surrounds those key seven ones with

multiple other ones along the way.

Now, since it does deal with theology, what would you say are the

primary theological truths that stand out in this 30 -day guide?

Well, scholars have framed the order salutis

in a number of different ways, but one of the more classical articulations of

it would include the truths of, first of all, election, then calling, then regeneration,

then conversion, which is repentance and faith, then justification, reconciliation,

sanctification, us growing spiritually, so progressive sanctification,

that is more than positional sanctification, perseverance, keeping going as believers

by God's grace, and then glorification.

Each of those nine gets a chapter.

Some of them get more than one chapter, and then, like I say, there are other chapters I've put in.

For example, before election, there's a chapter on foreknowledge, God's loving knowledge,

not just about us, but of us.

He knew us.

And before foreknowledge, there's a chapter on the eternal covenant, how in eternity past the members of the Trinity covenanted

with each other as to their roles in redeeming.

Us.

So yeah, those would be some of the high points.

Yes, and you mentioned before, just a few minutes ago, about Lutheran

scholars in the 18th century being an important

part of rediscovering and proclaiming the biblical

order salutis, which is a pleasant surprise for me, because I don't think you can

hardly find a 21st century Lutheran, even conservative ones, who would agree with the reformed

on the order salutis, especially in regard to regeneration preceding faith.

Yeah, I don't know whether it was known by different terms before the 1720s.

That seems incredibly late in history for me, but that's what I hear.

Certainly, the term was coined in around the 1720s.

And yeah, it is sad how denominations rise and fall, good theology comes

and goes.

But isn't it wonderful that we at least have a God who is rock solid and immutable and

from eternity past to eternity future, from everlasting to everlasting?

Pastors come and go, churches rise and fall, but to have this God who then

speaks in the scriptures, so that even denomination calling itself by the

name of one of the greatest theologians and reformers of all, even if they fall and go liberal,

by God's grace and scriptures, we still have access to the truth.

And let me clarify something I just said, because I do have Lutheran listeners who may pounce on me

angrily saying that I'm misrepresenting them.

Since Lutherans do believe in baptismal regeneration, and since they believe that infants

should be baptized, in that sense they do believe that regeneration precedes faith.

But I'm talking about with an older person who is demonstrably

lost and then comes to saving faith in Christ.

It's hard for me sometimes to understand where Lutheran scholars and theologians are coming from, but they

certainly, the majority of them that I have encountered are in

one level or another anti -Calvinistic.

Some are very charitable and tolerable of it, and some of them are vehemently opposed.

To those things.

So that's the only reason I brought that up.

And I do maintain with, I do maintain friendships with Lutherans who I've had on this program

nonetheless, but I just thought that is a curiosity of mine.

And what we're going to do is when we come back, let's

dig a little deeper into the first act of the book, Life

Plans, because there is a lot of confusion amongst people, especially those

outside of the Reformed faith, about our understanding of unconditional election and

predestination, poor knowledge, all of that.

But if anybody has any question for our guest today, Will Dobby, send it to

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and country of residence.

Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Let's say you are at odds with your own pastors or your own church over a theological issue

or discussing, and you don't want to identify yourself at this point.

We can understand that.

You might even be a pastor yourself, and you are discovering things that you

previously did not believe and therefore placed yourself at odds with even your own elders

and perhaps your denomination or what have you.

We could understand all of those reasons being matters that would compel you to remain anonymous, but

please, if it's just a general question, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your

country of residence.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Will Dobby right after these messages.

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We're now back with our guest today, Will Dobby, and we are discussing his 30 -day

guide that clearly explains the steps of salvation from everlasting to everlasting.

Every believer's biography.

And if you have a question, send it to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence.

Going back to Act 1 with life plans, and

we're talking about the God who decrees the covenant of redemption, the God who knows his

foreknowledge, the God who chooses, which is election.

There are critics of our faith, those who are Arminian,

who say that they cannot and refuse to believe in a God

that picks those who go to heaven

purely out of arbitrary decisions, like eeny, meeny,

miny, moe, they will commonly say.

And he picks people without any concerns

at all, other than the fact that he is arbitrarily picking them.

And how do you respond to that kind of a charge against us?

I guess a couple of ways spring to mind.

One is that I don't think arbitrary is a fair way to describe why God chooses who he chooses.

It's not random and it's not purposeless.

It is for the sake of his glory.

And if he was pursuing anything else other than his glory being

maximized in the lives of those he saves, he would no

longer be God.

He would be idolizing whatever else he was pursuing, most of all, more than his glory.

So, you know, that would be one thing.

I guess another thing would be that I don't want to arrogantly

say that I am fairer than God or love people more than

God or more righteous than him, or

I want to trust that he knows best.

You know, Paul in Romans says, who are you, O man, to talk back to God?

There's a place for humility here.

The question isn't what do we think is right?

The question is, what does God say is right?

And are we or are we not going to trust him?

Yes.

And I also tell people that God, in his

own wisdom, chooses to love people that are unlovable.

There's nothing in us innately that would merit his favor toward us

that would make him fall in love with us.

And sometimes I even have given an analogy.

Of course, every earthly analogy is never a perfect picture of

the mysterious and amazing things that God has done and does.

But I have told people to imagine parents who are adopting,

and they go to an orphanage.

And out of all the children there, they choose to love and

adopt a child that is the most deformed among those children.

The child that time and time again, dozens if not hundreds of

parents who have desired to adopt, pass these children over, because they

may, in the eyes of many, be disturbing to look at.

They may be children that these folks who are adopting don't

believe that they have the patience to raise such a child that involves so

much extra work.

It could be a host of other reasons why they don't want to adopt these children.

They don't want to subject their other children that they already have in the family to the

extra burdens that these deformed children may have.

And yet, these parents choose to love this child, and they take this child

home and raise it as their own.

Is that like a fair analogy in your mind, where God is looking at us, there's nothing

lovable about us, but he chooses to love us for his own reasons?

It's not arbitrary.

It is something that he does in the counsel of his will,

and he reaches out and he chooses us and loves us.

Even though we are not even regenerate at this point, when he chooses us before the foundation of the

world, we are as good as saved.

We are guaranteed, when he does this, that eventually he will give us new hearts.

He will regenerate us.

We will believe in him, follow him, fall in love with him.

We will be with him in eternity.

Those things are guaranteed by his choice.

And one other thing I'd like to ask you.

Isn't it true that it is only those that have this reformed understanding of the ordo

salutis and of soteriology, we are the only ones

that consistently and honestly say that we owe God 100

of the praise, honor, and glory and thanksgiving for our salvation?

Even though Arminians and many Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox and even members of cults

may say that they owe God 100 of the glory and thanksgiving for their

salvation, they're not really being consistent logically, are they?

I would say it's probably true.

Working back in reverse order of your questions, in that as humans,

we are inconsistent.

All of us are inconsistent.

And some of us may have theology that doesn't add up to us giving God 100 of the glory for

our salvation.

And yet by God's grace, some of us inconsistently may nonetheless, even if it's just on an

emotional level or deeper level, still give him 100 of the glory.

But yes, it is our theology as reformed people that rationally

and logically pushes us wonderfully towards giving God 100 of the glory.

Earlier you asked, is that a fair picture about adoption?

I think it is.

It's a great picture and it's close to home.

Our boys were adopted.

We're passionate about adoption.

It's how we're choosing to build our family as plan A because I believe Christians are called to adopt.

And when my wife and I adopted our oldest, and then a few years later adopted our

second son, we weren't being cruel and unloving to the other boys

in foster care who we didn't adopt.

When God adopts us into his family, yes, absolutely,

election is very unfair.

It's unfair on us who were chosen.

The fair thing would be for no one to be adopted.

So it's not like everyone is the default is going to be saved and some people are cruelly held back.

It is more that everyone was running as fast as they could in the opposite direction, flipping God the bird,

and God amazingly unfairly grabbed a few of us.

So I do think that's a fair picture you painted.

Yes, and the charge against those of us who are reformed about us

creating a God in our own minds that is unfair is really absurd because

when you look at the evangelical Arminian concept of salvation,

it is hardly fair in human understanding because we're not all born into this

world in exactly with exactly the same circumstances surrounding us.

You have some children born to fundamentalist Muslims

in the Middle East under Sharia law, where a conversion to Christianity would certainly result

in execution.

And you have other children being born in the Bible belt to loving parents who nurture them in

the scriptures.

You have other children even here in the States who are born to atheists and

prostitutes and drug addicts and murderers and

prison inmates.

You could go on and on and on.

This is not some kind of even playing field where we all have the same opportunity to

believe and embrace Christ.

So the charge of unfairness is really absurd, isn't it?

I think that's right.

And yet at the same time, I think it is also right to say that

no one who God doesn't choose is...

Let me put it this way.

Everyone who God doesn't choose is nonetheless culpable for their own exclusion from his family.

And we may not all have the same opportunities, but we do all have the same opportunities of responding to first the

witness of creation, look around at the magnificence of our world, the natural world,

and we fail to give the creator of it the glory that is his due.

And if we say that we don't believe, it does point to a creator, that is because of our

hardened hearts, hardened willfully by us.

And then second, no one responds to the witness of conscience.

We all deep down, again, like deep down, we should know that

creation implies a creator.

So deep down, we know that there is a right and the wrong.

We know when we're doing wrong.

And if we deny that, again, that is because of self -inflicted, increasingly hardened hearts.

And we fail to live up to...

We fail to respond to that witness.

We do what we know to be wrong and we don't do what we know to be right.

And I think that raises interesting questions about the eternal

destiny of, for example, victims of abortion, of others who don't have the

witness of creation and the witness of conscience.

But for those who do, which is the entire rest of humanity, yeah, we

are without excuse.

That's Paul's exact words, isn't it?

In Romans 1 .20, we're all without excuse.

Yes, we are.

And we're going to our longer than normal station break in the middle of the show, which we always have in the middle

of the show because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us

a longer break in the middle of the show because the FCC requires of them to localize all of their programming geographically

to Lake City, Florida.

They do so with their own public service announcements and other local things that

geographically localize us to Lake City.

While they do that, we simultaneously air our own globally heard commercials.

So use this time wisely, please.

Not only send in questions to our guests today, but also write down the contact

information for as many of our advertisers as you possibly can so that you can more frequently and

successfully respond to our advertisers.

Folks, we need our advertisers to exist.

There's no way that we could survive on the air without them.

There is not enough donations that come in from our listeners for that to be sufficient to

keep the program on the air.

So please, if you really love this show, let our advertisers know that.

Even if you can't at this moment pay for anything that they're offering, you can't buy what they're selling, use their

services, or if you can't even visit the churches that are advertising on the program, there's

one thing that you can do.

You can contact them and say, thank you for sponsoring Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

If indeed that is what you believe, if you are grateful that there are people who share

their hard -earned money with us so that we can survive, whether it be businesses, corporations,

parachurch ministries, churches, or other people or institutions

who love the show, want us to remain on the air and share with us some of the money that God has

blessed them with.

If you're really grateful for that, please thank our advertisers for that.

And of course, send in your questions to willdobby at chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com.

As always, give us your first name at least city and state and country of residence.

Don't go away.

We're going to be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

Have you noticed the gap that exists between the Sunday morning sermon and the Sunday school classroom or the small

group study?

So often we experience great preaching from the pulpit, but when it comes time to study God's word in those

smaller settings, well, let's be honest.

It leaves a lot to be desired.

It seems like it is nearly impossible to find good curriculum out there today that is true to the word of God and is

built upon sound doctrine.

Much less it's hard to find curriculum that will actually teach people how to study the Bible.

Hi there.

My name is Jordan Too, and I am the executive director of the Baptist Publishing House.

Our ministry is dedicated to providing local churches with sound Bible study resources.

Our quarterly curriculum is titled the Baptist Expositor.

And for good reason, we are Baptist and we exegete the scriptures.

If you want to have a curriculum that teaches your people how to study the word of God, I invite you go to our website,

download a free study, baptistpublishinghouse .com.

May God bless you.

It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners.

From all over the world.

Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show

he really loves hearing interviewed, Dr. Joe Moorcraft.

Hi, I'm Joe Riley, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener here in Atai in County Kildare, Ireland.

Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is Dr. Joe

Moorcraft.

If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron radio, Dr. Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming,

Georgia are largely to thank since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.

Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.

Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards.

And Dr. Joe Moorcraft is the author of an eight volume commentary on the larger catechism.

Heritage is a member of the Hanover Presbytery built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets,

Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great Protestant

Reformation of the 16th century.

Heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the reformers, scripture alone,

grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone, and God's glory alone.

Their primary goal is the worship of the triune God that continues in eternity.

For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit HeritagePresbyterianChurch

.com.

That's HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com or call 678 -954

-7831.

That's 678 -954 -7831.

If you visit, tell them Joe O 'Reilly, an Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener from a tie in County Kildare, Ireland,

sends you.

As host of Iron Sharpens Iron radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in

Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he

shall be represented in the world.

They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

God in spirit and truth.

Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a God -centered focus, reading, preaching, and

hearing the word of God, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs.

Baptism and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship, performed with faith, joy,

and sobriety.

Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at

gcbcnj .squarespace .com.

That's gcbcnj .squarespace .com.

Or call them at 908 -996 -7654.

That's 908 -996 -7654.

Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions,

coffee shops, and local hangouts, Long Island Youth for Christ, staff and volunteers meet with young people.

Who need Jesus.

We are rural and urban and we are always about the message of Jesus.

Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York by engaging young people in the lifelong

journey of following Christ.

Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959.

We have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need

all over the country and around the world.

Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future.

Volunteer, donate, pray, or all of the above.

For details, call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385

-8333.

That's 631 -385 -8333.

Or visit liyfc .org.

That's liyfc .org.

Getting a driver's license.

Running a cash register.

Flipping burgers.

Passing sixth grade.

Do you know what they all have in common?

They all require training, assessments, and certifications.

But do you know what requires no training at all?

Becoming a parent.

My name is A .M. Brewster.

I'm the president of Truth Love Parent and host of its award -winning podcast.

I've been a biblical family counselor since the early 2000s.

And what I've discovered is that the majority of Christian parents have never been biblically equipped to do the work of the ministry in

their homes.

That's why Truth Love Parent exists.

We serve God by equipping dads and moms to be the ambassador parents God called and created them to be.

We produce free parenting resources, train church leaders, and offer biblical counseling so that the next generation of

dads and moms can use the scriptures to parent their children for life and godliness.

Please visit us at truthloveparent .com.

When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the New American

Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors.

It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been

sticking with or switching to the NASB.

I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, president and professor of systematic and homiletical theology at Greenville

Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylor, South Carolina.

And the NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Chuck White at the First Trinity Lutheran Church in Tonawanda, New York.

And the NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Anthony Mathenia of Christ Church in Radford, Virginia.

And the NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Jesse Miller of Damascus Road Christian Church in Gardnerville, Nevada.

And the NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Bruce Bennett of Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York.

And the NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Rodney Brown of Metro Bible Church in South Lake, Texas.

And the NASB is my Bible of choice.

I'm Pastor Jim Harrison of Red Mills Baptist Church in Mayapac Falls, New York.

And the NASB is my Bible of choice.

Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air.

Pastors, are your pew Bibles tattered and falling apart?

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And tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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Hi, this is John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona.

Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnzen and the Iron Sharpens Iron podcast.

I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity.

He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key

doctrines of the Christian faith.

I've always been happy to point people to this podcast, knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the Internet

where folk won't be led astray.

I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide.

This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised Chris up for just such a time.

And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer

and in finances.

I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting Iron

Sharpens Iron financially.

Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would.

All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com where you can click support.

That's ironsharpensironradio .com.

I'm Dr. Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher

McDowell.

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church

in Corham, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into

the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

Christ Jesus the King and His doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and

beyond.

I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing

of being showered by their love.

As I have.

For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

That's hopereformedli .net or

call 631 -696 -5711.

That's 631 -696 -5711.

Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York, that you heard about them from Tony Costa

on Iron Sharpens Iron.

If you love Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is

by supporting our advertisers.

One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Arnton is doing

is Daniel P. Patafuco, serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.

Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society.

Their mission?

To foster belief in the credibility of scripture as the written word of God.

They go to various churches, schools, and institutions to publicly display a rare

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To advance the cause of the gospel, they created a beautiful, perfect facsimile of the

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This book is complete with gorgeous full -size illustrations of Noah's Ark and the Tower of

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You can have your own copy of this 44 -page genealogy book for a donation of $35

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Visit historicalbiblesociety .org.

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Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air.

I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology

at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.

Every Christian who's serious about the Deformed Faith and the Westminster Standards should have and use

the eight -volume commentary on the theology and ethics of the Westminster Larger Catechism

titled Authentic Christianity by Dr. Joseph Moorcraft.

It is much more than an exposition of the Larger Catechism.

It is a thoroughly researched work that utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and

systematic theology.

Dr. Moorcraft is pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, and I urge everyone looking

for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation.

For details on the eight -volume commentary, go to westminstercommentary .com,

westminstercommentary .com.

For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit

heritagepresbyterianchurch .com, heritagepresbyterianchurch .com.

Please tell Dr. Moorcraft and the saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, that Dr. Joseph

Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sends you.

James White of Alphanomega Ministries here.

If you've watched my dividing line webcast often enough, you know I have a great love for getting Bibles and other

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And besides that, they feel so good.

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No radio ad will be long enough to sing their praises sufficiently, but I'll give it a shot.

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Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,.

Give yourself unto reading.

The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own.

You need to read.

Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the Prince of Preachers to heart.

The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and

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Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered, Christ -exalting

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We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com.

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or present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And don't forget, folks, with Christmas just days away, you can still order gifts

for your family, friends, and loved ones from solid -ground -books .com.

Remember, they bring back into print and also publish for the first time nothing but the finest in Christian

literature dating back to the Protestant Reformation and extending forward to our present day with such

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So please, if you want to help Iron Sharpens Iron Radio while simultaneously

blessing yourself and anyone for whom you purchase gifts, go to solid

-ground -books .com, purchase frequently, purchase generously, and always mention that you heard about them from Chris

Armisen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

They are one of our primary, premier, most valued and important

advertisers, and we need them to continue in existence.

Please patronize them as much as you can.

And remember, you're not only going to be doing them a favor and doing us a favor, you're going to be doing yourself

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Before I return to my guest, Will Dobby, and our discussion on his book from Everlasting to

Everlasting, Every Believer's Biography, I just have a couple of announcements to make.

Please, folks, if you really love this show, go to ironsharpensironradio .com, click support,

then click to donate now.

You can donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that fashion.

And if you prefer snail mail, sending in a physical check to a physical address the old -fashioned way, there will also be

a physical address that appears on your screen when you click support at ironsharpensironradio .com,

where you can mail those checks made payable to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

If you want to advertise with us, whether it's your church, your parachurch ministry, your business, your corporation, your

private professional practice like a law firm or a medical firm, whatever it is that you want to

promote, it might even be just a special event.

As long as it is reflecting and is compatible with our beliefs here, we would

love to help you launch an ad campaign.

You don't have to believe identically with me, but you need to be at the very least promoting something compatible with what I believe.

If that's the case, please send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line.

We are just as much in urgent need of your advertising dollars as your donations.

So please, if you are interested, send us that email today.

Also, I want you to remember I never want my listeners giving less money to their own local church where they

are a member than they are accustomed to giving their own local church in order to give us a

financial gift.

Please never cut in to the giving of your church to bless us.

Also, please, if you're really struggling to survive and make ends meet, wait till you are more financially stable and back on your

feet before sending us a financial gift.

Those two things are commands of God in scripture providing for your church and family.

Providing for my radio show is obviously not a command of God.

But if you love the show, you don't want it to go off the air, and you have extra money

in the bank collecting interest, you have extra money for benevolent recreational and trivial matters,

please share some of that money with us if you don't want us to go off the air so that we can continue to exist.

Go to ironsharpensionradio .com, click support, then click, click to donate now.

Last but not least, if you are not a member of a Christ -honoring, biblically faithful, doctrinally sound,

theologically solid church, like Emanuel Church in Knoxville, Tennessee, well, I have lists,

extensive lists spanning the globe of biblically faithful churches, and I may be able to help you find a church no

matter where on the planet you live, as I have done with many listeners in the Iron Sharpens Ion Radio audience.

All over the world.

Sometimes I've even found folks, churches within just a couple of minutes from where they live, and they didn't even

know these churches existed, or they didn't know those churches were scripturally sound.

So if you are in that predicament, or if somebody that you love is, send me an email to chrisarnson at

gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line.

That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Will Dobby, chrisarnson at gmail

.com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

Only remain anonymous if your question is personal and private.

And Will, you wanted to go back to, or remain in the area of

sovereign election before we move on to different points that are made in your book.

Yeah, absolutely.

Let me also just say, Chris, that is the first time in 30 years of being a Christian that I've ever

heard a parachurch urge people in its ministry to not lessen their giving

to their local church.

That's amazing for me.

Well, I appreciate that.

Really be blessed by that.

I really appreciate that very much.

I very much appreciate that.

As a local church pastor, I'm very struck by that.

So good on you, brother.

Yeah, I'm not obsessed by election.

There's a couple more things to cover before we move on because I think one of the parts of your

multi -part question a few minutes ago touched on how election means we're good at saved.

And I know what you mean.

It means we're as good as in the new creation.

You know, we're in the heavenlies, as Paul says in Ephesians 1.

And it means we are actually saved.

So, you know, anyone who's troubled by the doctrine of election, I want to reassure them

that if they're really troubled by it, we're talking at cross purposes.

What they mean is not the same as what I'm talking about, because the way the Bible presents it, it's this glorious, wonderful thing, not that we

have to kind of stomach as something unpalatable and difficult,

but as something we get to embrace with relief and joy because one

of its multiple benefits is assurance.

You know, that's what you were touching on.

It means that God really has us to the extent that he's locked us irreversibly

into salvation before even time began so that Satan and sin and nothing else in all

creation can separate us from the love of Christ, can drag us away from our salvation.

I mean, it also includes wonderful benefits like just a great spur to humility that we were talking about before.

None of us deserves to be saved.

We all deserve not to.

And we were plucked out of nowhere.

So, you know, it guards us from the grotesque, farcically inappropriate

self -congratulation that, you know, we should never have for our salvation.

And ironically, it fuels evangelism.

You know, people say, well, what's the point of evangelism?

If God's already chosen, who's going to be saved and who not?

Well, evangelism, the point isn't to persuade people to become Christians.

The point is to hold out the word of life.

And evangelism's the trigger by which those who are elected come to Christ.

What it means is not that my evangelism can't work.

It means my evangelism can't fail when I happen to be witnessing to someone who is

elect.

And that's what gives me hope.

And God is still honored when I witness to those who aren't elect.

I've got to urgently witness to anyone and everyone knowing that because of

election, my evangelism is guaranteed to be fruitful, not that it's pointless.

So I just wanted to add those positives.

It's not something for us to be troubled about, but to celebrate.

Yes.

And in fact, we could just return that same question.

The question is, if God has sovereignly chosen certain people for salvation, why do

we need to evangelize?

We could turn the same question on our Arminian and Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox

friends and say, well, if as according to your beliefs,

Jesus Christ loves everyone in the same way and to the same measure,

he died for every single one of us, why do we need to evangelize?

If he paid the price for our sins on the cross, why do we need to evangelize?

If they really believed that, if they really believed he was a substitute, which in our day and age in

the 21st century, even Arminians will say they believe in substitutionary atonement,

how could anyone go to hell if he died as a substitute for every single human?

I mean, really, they have no grounds to hurl an accusation at us that

they cannot answer themselves in a little different way, of course, but it's the same question.

Well, we have another point in the book that we want to address.

The second act, life begins, and you have the God who arranges,

which is involved in his providence, and the God who creates, which involves

conception and physical life.

Why don't you continue?

There are other days under that heading, different issues that we'll try to

address as many as we can, but on those two, why don't you go through what you have to say,

and there are critics of Christianity.

If you're even going outside of Reformed Arminian and Roman and

Eastern Orthodox, you have those that are critics of Christianity

itself who will say, what are you talking about?

God doesn't create humans in the womb, mom and dad or any male

and female that are involved in sexual activity.

They're the ones that create a life in the womb.

Why don't you respond to all of that?

Tell us exactly what you are saying in this part.

Sure.

Well, with that particular example, I'd say, sure, but who created mom and dad?

And they'd say, well, their mom and dad.

Well, who created their mom and dad?

We just go back and back and back and back until I'm left saying, well, who created the Big Bang?

If they inhabit a materialist universe that thinks that humans come about purely because of other humans,

eventually, in other words, the universe of cause and effect, they're going to struggle.

They have no explanation for the first cause, whereas we believe in the first cause

because we believe we know him.

The first cause is a loving, powerful God who can bring a creation out of nothing.

So yeah, I'd have fun with that conversation with them.

But like you say, day five is the God who arranges providence, by which we mean he is

sovereignly over every single detail, every single molecule of the universe, and not just sovereign over it

in a sense of control and power, but sovereign over it for the good of his people, Romans 8, 28, for the good of

those who love him.

And that means that even when evil happens to us, the God is innocent of it,

and it is evil.

Nonetheless, his genius is to bring good out of evil, to use it for good.

And we often won't see how in this lifetime.

I believe we will see how on the other side of eternity.

But often in this lifetime, we do see.

You know, I look back to some of the most painful times in my life.

I see wonderful ways in which God was refining me, humbling me, reaching others through me, teaching me things,

enabling things to happen that were so...

I'm just so grateful that they happened, and yet they had to happen through my suffering or my confusion at the time.

So that's providence.

And the reason I've put providence there is part of his providence is arranging when and where each of us would live out

our lives on earth.

And then the day after that is day six, the God who creates, as you said, conception and physical life.

And that's just an examination of our physical birth into the world

and the way it points to God's goodness and the way, in fact, it points to Christ.

You know, we're coming up to Christmas, the incarnation, Jesus traveled that same journey we did,

you know, through in the womb being constructed in the miraculous ways in which Psalm

139 describes it.

And then traveling down his mother's birth canal, as we did, he identified with us in all of that way.

And, you know, it's just a very rich area to explore in terms of implications.

And I hope as well, what we've said so far doesn't imply that this book is

dry or overly dense.

I do want it to be substantive, but Chris, having read it, I guess you would testify, you know, there are quite a few illustrations,

analogies, applications, and so on.

So, I mean, that's days five and six.

Please compare and contrast and differentiate

the God who proclaims, which is a general call, and the God who calls from within,

the inward call.

Yeah, so having been scheduled and placed

by God for our lives on earth, we are then born.

And then, logically and chronologically, the next two days are the external call and the internal

call.

The God who proclaims, the external call, is every time we hear the gospel.

So I heard the gospel hundreds and hundreds of times up until I was converted that night when I was 12.

And the external call is that the witness of others, and it will bounce off us because of our dead hearts

until God's irresistible grace, you know, breaks through,

which happens the millisecond he decides it to break through.

The fact that we resist the external call because we're spiritual corpses doesn't mean his grace isn't irresistible, just

means that he hasn't yet chosen for it to be irresistible.

The internal call is when our defenses collapse, when the Holy Spirit

supernaturally pierces our hearts with the truth of the gospel.

Amen.

And the God who gives spiritual life returns us to the

subject of regeneration.

And people seem to really not understand that whole concept.

As Jesus told Nicodemus, we can't even see the kingdom of God unless

we're born again.

And that is really just a different way of saying regenerate.

So revisit that and tell us how that

is related to repentance and faith.

Uh, repentance is just another confusing issue to many who think

that we who are reformed, who preach that repentance is necessary for salvation,

they wrongly think that we are preaching that our good works merit salvation.

And that's 180 degrees from the truth.

It's funny how they would throw that charge at us when we don't even believe the faith that saves

innately and inherently comes from ourselves.

So if you hear.

I think that's right.

Regeneration is the wonderful truth by which God gives us life.

You know, Ephesians 2 says that we're dead in our sins and regeneration is when God supernaturally

raises us from the dead.

We have a spiritual resurrection so that we can then repent and believe.

Dead people can't repent.

Dead people can't believe.

So regeneration precedes repentance and faith, enabling that.

And you're right.

Repentance and faith are not works in themselves.

They are the open hands by which we receive God's free grace and mercy.

I would put it that way.

And I'd also say that they're not to be separated.

Scripture often references one where in the context, it's clear scripture is, you know,

referring to both.

It explicitly articulates one where the context makes clear that it's referencing both repentance and

faith.

They're different sides of the same coin.

Repentance is turning from, faith is turning to, turning from sin to Christ.

Now, when we move on to Act 3, life from the

cross, the God who died, the cross and penal

substitutionary atonement, we just mentioned that a few moments ago.

This is something that people who are

outside of the Reformed faith just don't seem to appreciate and

logically agree with the magnitude and the

amazing and astronomical implications of what the word

substitution means.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon, I don't have the quote in front of me, but he

said, and I'm paraphrasing, that anyone who believes that Christ

died as a substitute for people who will still nonetheless go to hell anyway,

is a God more monstrous than the gods of the pagans and thugs.

You know, why on earth is God sending to hell anyone

for whom his son died as a substitute?

Because that should be the end of the story.

If he died as their substitute, there should not be a hell awaiting anybody.

And unfortunately, those who are involved in the extreme opposite heresy of universalism,

and I don't mean in the sense that many use the term universal atonement, which is just the Arminian view, I'm

talking about full -blown universalism where everyone is believed to be

headed for heaven.

The only, if you believe Christ is your substitute, the only two choices you really have are the

heresy of universalism or the biblical truth of the reformed theology.

Am I right?

Yeah, I think that is right.

I mean, I'm a big fan of definite atonement.

My faith is based on hypothetical atonement

or theoretical atonement.

Christ actually died for me, not just made his blood available for me should I then choose it.

He actually died for me.

And I do think, you know, praise God for the ways in which we are inconsistent sometimes

because unlimited atonement, I think does ultimately, logically tend towards things like universalism.

But you're right, PSA, Penal Substitutional Atonement, I think is at the heart of the heart.

If the atonement is the heart of the Christian faith, Christ's work on the cross,

penal substitutionary atonement is the heart of the heart.

Penal, he took the punishment for us.

Substitutionary, in our place, he took it for us.

Atonement, you know, in high school, I was taught by our religious studies teacher at one moment to make us one

with God.

You get it.

Once you see it, you can't unsee it.

It's everywhere in scripture.

One of the clearest articulations is probably someone like 1 Peter 3, 18.

For Christ died, penal for sins, once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous,

substitutionary, to bring you to God, atonement.

So day 11, the God who dies is atonement.

Obviously, God can't die, but according to his human nature, he can, which is why he took on his human nature, which is

what we're celebrating now at Christmas.

That was actually day 12 that you just mentioned.

Oh, I'm sorry.

Yep.

And then the following days, so day 11 is the atonement in general.

And then the following days, 12, 13, 14, 15, are four of the really core,

central truths within the atonement.

Propitiation that God satisfies his own wrath against us because he's a just God.

He's not a corrupt judge.

Sin has to be paid for, can't be swept under the cosmic carpet, and he does pay for it.

Propitiation satisfies his wrath.

Justification is the big one where declared righteous, it's a legal term, you know, the heaven's law court

says not guilty.

Then redemption, day 14, the God who sets free, we're gloriously liberated, released, brought back,

brought out of our slavery.

And then adoption, the beautiful truth that having propitiated his wrath against us, justified us

and redeemed us, God can adopt us and reconcile us into his family forever.

So these are just some of the amazing truths at the heart of Christianity with so many rich implications

for our day -to -day lives.

We have a question from Bobby in Hartsdale, New York, who says, how do you

respond to Roman Catholics who mock and insult us for our

Protestant understanding of justification by faith alone?

And they call it a legal fiction, whereas they believe that justification

is really almost synonymous, if not completely synonymous, with sanctification and actually involves the

transformation of the soul.

Yes, having arranged Roman Catholic, or should I say, debates against Roman Catholics for

decades, especially featuring Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries on the

Reformed Protestant side and many Catholic apologists, that has come up a lot

in my own ears over the years.

It will even very often be including a chuckle on the

side of the Catholic.

It's like we're living in the land of make -believe, where God is just making believe that we're

just, that they really fail to understand imputation though, don't they?

I do.

We do believe in imputed righteousness, but imputed righteousness goes into the category

of progressive sanctification.

We're talking about positional sanctification, the way in which our status is changed

because God's righteousness is placed on us.

It is dikeiosone, righteousness, justification, same word, is a legal term.

That doesn't have to make it a legal fiction.

If it could be a legal reality and if, just because it's legal, if the word doesn't treat

it as a legal fiction, I don't think we should be so arrogant as to do so, but to gratefully accept it as a

wonderful legal reality.

To answer the first part of that question, I do believe that salvation is at

stake, whether or not you're believing, you are acting as if you're saved by faith or

saved by faith alone.

Faith plus anything, as Paul makes very clear in the letter of Galatians, for example, is not a saving

faith.

It's got to be empty hands with which we receive his forgiveness.

If they're full, then there's no room for his forgiveness.

And pastorally, the way I would answer that question when we're being mocked and

ridiculed would be just to show a lot of patience and love and turn the other cheek

because people are often not convinced as much by arguments, sadly, in today's world as by

relationships.

And so I hope that's helpful.

Yes, it definitely is.

And by the way, Bobby, please give us your full mailing address in Hartsdale, New York, because you have just won

a free copy of the very book we are addressing today, From Everlasting to

Everlasting, Every Believer's Biography, Compliments of Christian -Focused Publications, and

Compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com.

We'll be shipping that out to you at no charge to you or to IronTroop and Zion Radio.

And we thank Christian -Focused Publications for their generosity and also Cumberland Valley

Bible Book Service for picking up the shipping tab and their generous gift to you and to us.

We have another question.

This is from Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island.

He says, One thing I have never been able to wrap my head around is when

Christians claim that Jesus Christ experienced eternal hell on

the cross in our stead.

How could it be possibly the same thing when it wasn't and is not eternal

suffering that he experienced as horrendous as the wrath of God toward him

and upon him on the cross was it does not exist and is not ongoing now?

So how could Christ have received eternal punishment in hell on the cross?

I think hell has to be infinite in its

extent and horror because our sin against God is infinite in its extent and

horror because God is infinitely holy.

It might be unhelpful to say that Christ suffered eternal hell in terms of our perspective of time.

I would, however, say that it's fair to say that he suffered infinite hell,

not just the infinite hell of one person.

I want to push this even further.

I think he suffered the infinite hell of every single member of his people throughout all

of history for all the sins ever committed by anyone who would ever have faith in God and be saved.

How is that possible to answer the question?

Well, we are finite.

We have finite capacity and that's partly why our suffering in hell would last forever, would be eternal, as well

as infinite.

Christ, according to his divine nature, of course, has infinite capacity.

That's why he's able to suffer many hundreds of millions of people's

hells in their stead, the people of his people.

And that's also why we shouldn't, we can't say that because it only

lasted six hours, it wasn't that bad.

Like how bad can six hours of suffering be?

Well, you know, God is outside of time and I think it was infinitely bad.

Amen.

And a thought just occurred to me, I just remembered when we were discussing

the mockery of the forensic nature of the

imputation of Christ's righteousness towards sinners,

the mockery that it is a legal fiction and it is ridiculous and so on.

Someone making that charge would have to think then, if they're going to be logically

consistent, that our imputation, or should I say, the imputation of our

sin to Christ is a legal fiction and therefore they would have to say

that Christ had to literally become a sinner if in

order to match their understanding of reality versus fiction,

why on earth would they believe that Jesus Christ had

anything, you know, less than a physical

transformation into a sinner in order to pay for our sins, which of course that's blasphemy.

He was, our sins were imputed to him, but he did not, in reality, become

a sinner.

He didn't become guilty of our sin even though he was treated by his father

as being guilty in that act.

I think that's right.

I mean,.

Paul does say he was made sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God, but

Paul's theology in general and the context make clear that.

Yeah, I agree with you.

I think a good way of putting it is with Peter to say he bore our sin, notwithstanding

what Paul is getting at when he says he was made sin.

And unfortunately, there are blasphemers and heretics in the Word of Faith Pentecostal movement who actually

believe Jesus Christ became a demon on the cross for them to make sense of

those passages.

And what we were just discussing is actually in regard to a theological term

that outside of reform theology, I don't think I've ever heard a non -reformed

Christian.

I'm not saying they haven't, but I've heard a lot of non -reformed

Christians teach and preach, and I've never heard them use the term propitiation.

And maybe you can pick up on propitiation when we come back from our final break.

This is going to be a much more brief break than the other breaks.

So if you want to send in a question, send it in as quickly as you can to chrisorensen at gmail .com.

Chris Orensen at gmail .com.

I'm going to remind my guest today to mute himself during the break, and we'll be right back

after these messages.

Don't go away.

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Welcome back.

We're going to return to the subject of propitiation in a second,

but I just wanted to take an anonymous listener question which actually does involve that.

The anonymous listener wants to know, what did Jesus mean when he said

as his final words, it is finished?

That's such a great question.

So it's a single word in the Greek, a bit hazy on what it looks like in the

Aramaic, but tetelestai, perfect tense, it is finished.

It's something I have accomplished with present and ongoing effect.

And it wasn't a cry of defeat as in my life is finished.

It was a cry of victory as in my mission is finished.

And if you read it in the context of John's gospel, which is where it's recorded, that becomes very

clear.

So it's this magnificent roar of victory with Jesus' final breath.

And wasn't that a commonly used word in the day in regard to

commerce and buying and selling?

And if you had a debt, it was paid in full.

Wasn't that a common word used to declare that officially and legally?

I have heard that.

Yeah, I have heard that.

Okay, well, let's go back to propitiation.

That's another reason why it doesn't seem to make any logical sense

that the non -reformed view of the

death of Christ, the redemption that Christ provided on Calvary, how the non

-reformed view could make any sense.

Because if God the Father turned away wrath from us

and poured it on his son, why is this wrath coming back on anybody for whom Christ died if he

indeed truly died on the cross with the intention to redeem them?

Yeah, that's a good point.

I do believe that the L of Tulip is the

central tent pole that holds up the entire tent, but you know, by implication.

No, propitiation is a magnificent truth.

We've talked earlier about how God, by his nature of being holy and just,

has to erupt with righteous fury at sin because of its wickedness.

He doesn't let wickedness go, thank goodness.

And yet that's not such good news for us when we remember that, well, we are, you know, those wicked people.

And propitiation is the truth that as Jesus hung on the cross, he was satisfying,

he was appeasing, he was quenching, he was exhausting that fury from God.

You know, in 1 John 2, 2, you guys would say 1 John 2, 2,

Jesus was the propitiation for our sins.

And there's a few different ways you can look at this.

You can think of Christ as the divine lightning rod, you know, the lightning of God's anger at sin

once released, must land somewhere, or the cross is the divine lightning conductor.

Lovingly supplied by the father, willingly enacted by the son, Jesus absorbs the holy strike

for the sake of our safety.

You can think of it as like a sandbag.

You know, I was in the military and a soldier, you know, crouches behind a sandbag as the bullet flies towards him, but

the last millisecond that the bullet's kinetic energy is quenched.

The sandbag is pierced, the bullet is spent, the soldier's life is preserved.

God's anger is spent, Jesus was pierced, we're preserved.

Or just one other image that the Old Testament itself uses for propitiation is a cup.

You know, Jesus went to the garden contemplating the agonies to come

and exhausted the cup of God's wrath.

And what that means is for us who trust in him, that cup has now been drained, it's empty.

We don't have to drink it.

We don't have to go to hell and face God's anger forever.

So propitiation is this truth that should just give us

undying relief and gratitude and also reassurance that God's commitment to his

glory and to our salvation such that he would even take on the cost of

putting forward his son as the propitiation for our sins.

Yeah, we have got to stop, and this may be something that

even those who rightly understand substitutionary atonement, we might be

guilty of it from time to time ourselves, but certainly many outside of the

Reformed faith view the death of Christ far too much as a

sentimental story and they view his agony

on Calvary as solely being associated with the physical nails that

went through his wrists and feet and the crown of thorns that was

crammed onto his skull and not to mention all the beatings and

things that he experienced before being nailed to the cross.

The real agony was when his very father poured his

wrath upon him.

Isn't that really what he was agonizing over in the garden even before it occurred?

Yeah, I think that's right.

Luke says that he sweated blood and Jesus wasn't a

coward, wasn't scared of death.

Well, he wasn't scared of anything, but it was the prospect of, like we talked about earlier, the father's

eternal judgment, not the equivalent for one person for their sins, but the hundreds of millions

of Christians across time for all of their sins being poured out on him and him absorbing it.

That was what distressed him in the garden, yeah.

Well, I want you to, in about 90 seconds, just summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our

listeners today about this topic.

I already know that I want to invite you back to continue the major headings

in the remainder of the book, but please summarize for us at least

what you most want us to remember about what you already said.

That we have a magnificent God.

He is from everlasting to everlasting, eternity past to eternity future.

He's written us a stunning story that we get to live out stage by stage.

What it means is that he's a God of order, no matter how chaotic or frightening or confusing or uncertain

life in this world may seem.

He has us on a path and it is a path that will get us safely all the way home.

And the theology of this path, I'm nearly done, is not to give us things to push around and

play intellectual games with, but to live because the more deeply we study them, the more we will

find they open to us enormous reservoirs of comfort and strength and

hope and joy and many other things besides.

We should know our own story.

Well, thank you so much for such a fascinating interview.

I was thoroughly blessed and I am very confident that all who listened were as well.

Don't forget, folks, if you want to find out more about Emanuel Church in Knoxville, Tennessee, go to enox

.org, E -K -N -O -X .org if you want to find out more about the book we have been discussing.

From Everlasting to Everlasting, Every Believer's Biography.

Go to christianfocus .com, christianfocus .com, but I would actually ask that you order it

from Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service who carries in stock all of the

publications of Christian Focus publications.

And since cvbbs .com sponsors this program, we would love for

you to order through them whenever possible.

It's CV for Cumberland Valley, bbs for Bible Book Service dot com.

I want to thank everybody who listened to the program today, especially those who took the time to write.

I want to thank my guest today who, as I've already said, did such an extraordinary job

on some very important issues.

Our guest today, Pastor Will, and I want you all to always remember for the

rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater Savior

than you are a sinner.

Keep your eyes and ears open for an update on when Pastor Will will return to the

program to continue this very valuable discussion.

God bless.