Jen Wilkin Back on The Show! - Part 1

All right, everybody.

Well, this video is a request and it's gonna be a multi -parter.

I mean, what else can I do?

This is just how we do it around here.

This is by request of just from someone that I just can't say no to.

You know, it's as simple as that.

So, here we go.

All right.

Yes, we are going to do some more Jen Wilkin content.

It's not just Jen Wilkin, although she's the main event, of course.

But but yeah, you know if you haven't watched my Jen Wilkin content in the past it has been, you know.

Pretty pretty well received.

Although it has not come without controversy.

But if you haven't seen it go to my youtube page and just search Jen Wilkin.

It's some of my best stuff I'm just gonna come out and say it.

It is some of my best stuff if I do say so myself.

Well Wonderful.

Absolutely.

Wonderful, but you know gospel coalition, you know, they they they just love her, you know,

they just love her and You know that there you go.

So we're gonna we're gonna watch this video.

It's 41 minutes long put out by the gospel coalition four days ago to a

whopping massive just groundswell of support 932 views in

four days.

Now I am a very small channel.

My channel is not, you know that popular and So I'm not like the YouTube expert here.

But I gotta say I could put just about anything on YouTube and get more than nine hundred and thirty two views.

And I do mean that just about anything.

This is pretty bad.

And when you compare the the the the subscriber total between gospel coalition

and myself.

They've got two hundred and ten thousand subscribers and I've got under twenty thousand.

So that is quite saying something so we're gonna you know Let's turn the closed captioning off because I cannot stand that

and let's just jump into this and see how far we get.

I I will admit I watched the first ten minutes of this and I told my the person who

Recommended it.

I told them.

Hey, you were right.

I'm gonna do it.

I'm gonna do it.

So I I've seen the first ten minutes I have not seen anything past that so we're gonna just gonna do it the way we normally do it.

Let's go.

The family of God is essentially motherless.

Is not that women stop looking for a mother.

They go and find a mother outside of the local church in the form of someone who they can find in a virtual space.

I think that's her big line.

You know, she she's she obviously worked hard on that line and I give her all the credit.

I mean it takes a lot of work to come up with you know.

A pithy sort of way to get your points across and so hats off.

I'm not even joking totally serious the the church in America is essentially motherless motherless.

And it's not that they stop looking for a mother.

They just look for a mother outside the church now.

I gotta say that is sad.

That makes me sad.

That makes me sad.

It's a you know, and it may be it's even a real problem and this is the thing this is the problem with so much

gospel coalition content like They do a lot of shadowboxing and they do make mountains out of

molehills.

They are the the proverbial Don Quixote, you know slaying windmills and saying that they're they're giants.

So it's it's hard to you know, you got to suspend disbelief when you're watching gospel coalition content.

But I'm gonna try my best to just assume that this is a real problem, right?

This is a real problem in the church.

The church is motherless and they're not gonna stop searching for a mother just gonna find a non -christian mother and that's

the problem.

And so we need to really rediscover the role of women in the church.

That's the premise of this and I have my opinions about that.

I Well, I'll just say it.

I don't think that's true.

But let's just say it is true and let's let's let's see if the the diagnosis and these and the and

the the treatment match up.

Some elders operate some some pastors not all operate with a paradigm that has a view of men and

women that I think.

Negatively affects their shepherding.

I guess it helps us to see that we shouldn't be calibrating the biblical teaching to

counterbalancing a biblical a cultural narrative because the Bible itself is the norm.

Look at this crew.

I mean.

I.

Bet I mean Look at this.

Look at this scene here.

It is like Perfectly curated looks like they're having a conversation in a museum.

You know like this is like a museum set piece and they're having this conversation.

I bet you a lot of money went into Figuring out the the proper decor the proper

coloring the proper.

You know how to set up the this the perfect spot for this little plant over here how to set

it up to be as non -threatening and as winsome as possible like this is.

This reminds me of when I would get pulled into meetings, you know with HR and you know,

someone that I you know worked for me and I'd have to sit through these meetings with oh someone has a problem with this and that.

That's what it looks like.

It just reminds me of that and I just be in this room.

And I just want to blow my own brains out.

This is like the worst Thing ever I would never want to be in that room.

But this is what it looked like it had a stupid impressionist like whatever no.

It's just abstract like this is what it looked like being in corporate America and

nothing was worse.

It was so terrible.

It was so terrible not not the whole experience of corporate America, but like the HR experience.

It's the worst case scenario.

It's like nothing is worse than that.

If you work in a corporate situation, you know what I mean?

You know what?

I mean?

You got the two women in the middle, of course, because of course we were valuing their contribution very much.

I don't know who this is, but you know

Wish I wish you sometimes I wish you guys could be inside my brain just the things that I think but.

But but yeah, this is.

If you get called to a meeting and then like the people that are calling the meeting you walk in and you see this group.

You know, you're in for a bad time.

That's the point where you say hell hold on.

I have to use the restroom and you take your secret flask and you start taking a few you know a few snorts,

but.

It's self is telling us it's a beautiful story.

It's a beautiful story.

Cast.

Equipping the next generation of believers pastors and church leaders to shape life and

ministry around the gospel.

Today is a special episode titled partners in ministry how men and women must labor together for the good of the

church.

Welcome to the gospel.

Imagine being like a man.

Could you imagine being a man.

I can imagine being a man.

Can you imagine me a man like a pastor or or I don't know some kind of leader in the church and.

Like really like really caring at all.

How Jen Wilkin thinks you should run your church.

I.

Just get it.

I can't even begin to understand why someone bill.

Oh, yeah, we got to sit at the feet of Jen Wilkin to figure out how to run our churches.

My goodness, it is brutal.

Okay, I can't even put myself in that frame and everything about gap said this so many times.

But everything about the gospel coalition presentation, it just screams out.

We are effeminates and happy with it.

It's just nothing is appealing about this.

Nothing is appealing about this.

This is the worst the worst.

Volition podcast, my name is Colin Hanson.

I serve as the editor -in -chief of the gospel.

Hanson looks like very exciting topic.

That's Colin Hanson's in ministry how men and women can labor together for the good of the

church.

I'm excited about this conversation in part because you often hear about the problems or the limitations, but we're gonna be

talking.

It's enough to.

It's enough to make you really think.

You know, maybe there is something to the seed oil thing.

It's enough.

I'm about to go upstairs and tell them I get rid of all the seed oils.

I.

Believe about the positives about Encouragement and ways that we see God working well between men and women in the

church today.

Joined by some good friends here.

You guys go ahead Jen start with us introduce yourself and just keep going around.

I'm general.

Do you think they have anything in there in their cups?

I mean, I always think about this like it when we did the video with.

With what was the video?

I don't know I said this in a recent video or I was wondering if there's really anything in their cups.

Like they've got these cups of coffee very tastefully selected.

Mugs and they each have one and they have it in front of them.

And is there anything in them though?

I don't see any steam rising.

Is it just water?

I just got their water there.

I don't know.

I Don't know.

What do you think's in their cups?

Because if I was if I was at this meeting, I'll tell you what would be in my cup.

I would not be allowed in Baptist churches.

And and I'm an author and Bible teacher and have sat in the local church.

My name is Corey Porter.

I work in the background in campus ministry and right now in nonprofit life.

I'm Mike Krueger.

I'm president and professor of New Testament at Reformed Theological Seminary in Charlotte, North Carolina.

So there are many things that we all share in common.

There are ways that we would be different from each other as well.

But one of the areas that we share in common and within the gospel coalition is sharing a broad

Complementarian perspective that the office of pastor and elder is reserved for qualified qualified

men and the qualified men.

Yes, that's the that's the shield.

That's the Teflon.

You know, you can't say that I'm dangerous or saying dangerous things because I believe that the

office of Pastor elder shepherd whatever it's it's it's reserved for qualified

men.

That's how you know that it's good.

It's like Teflon you wear it like Teflon even wear Teflon or the Kevlar.

It's Kevlar.

That's Kevlar.

That's the thing and I think what's probably gonna come up again and again and again in this video Is you gotta ask

yourself?

Why did God make that rule?

You know what?

I mean?

Like why is it that only qualified qualified men?

Are to be elders in the church.

Why is it is it just this random thing that God just said I'm gonna put this Stipulation just

to see if they obey me just to see there's really no reason for it.

Because as we all know women have all the gifts that men have of course.

Let's just see if they obey me.

Is it that or is it that he created men to be a certain way?

Is it that he created men to act and and have certain attributes?

That were better for that and do those attributes do those do those do those, you know qualities of

Masculinity do they transfer over into other areas that maybe I don't speak on directly I don't say

I don't make the rule.

Does it transfer?

Is it more that or is it more just this kind of random thing?

That's the question you need to ask yourself when you're having a conversation like this.

And so, you know, let's let's continue the same time.

We all agree that the body of Christ Functions best when all of its members are valued

and encouraged to use their gift.

You know often these conversations are about what women can't do.

Many of the denominational debates that we see are often focused on the things that women cannot do.

And those can be important discussions.

But we also want to continually affirm all the many many things that God has called women to

do in the church.

And those are crucial discussions.

They're absolutely crucial because you gotta you gotta also put these kinds of conversations in context, right?

Like those are crucial discussions to have and it's no wonder why those are the ways that we have these

conversations because the push of everything.

Everything everything every part of the world the push of everything is to say

we've got you know.

Men and women they both have talents and they're the exact same.

Talents and they should be able to men women can do anything men can do they're capable of everything men are capable

of and It's causing havoc on the world in every area.

So, of course, we're going to talk about the things that women can't do.

Because that's where that's the port where we're being pushed right now.

That's the exact area that's being challenged and so, of course, it's like that, of course

and So while I do think agree.

It's important to talk about the what the role of women should be in the church because actually the Bible specifically

addresses this.

This is something that's specifically addressed in the scripture.

We have a word from the Lord on this.

So, of course, we should we preach the whole counsel of God, right?

We teach the whole counsel of God but of Course we're gonna talk more about what

women can't do when that's the area where pressure is being applied to the church, but also

everywhere everywhere else I'm I always I always couldn't stand

that there was that one song where it's like.

They only know what they don't know what we're for only one we're against when you judge the

wounded.

And I always thought that was so stupid.

Of course, they know we're against because they're pushing pushing pushing.

The the issue on every area that we have to be against.

So, of course, they're gonna know what we're against more than what we're for.

And alongside men, so I just want to start with the basic question of how would you make the case that the

church?

Needs the ministry of women and I thought Mike that we begin with you and just look at a historical perspective.

One of the things that you teach you're an expert in is the early church.

Talk about that maybe even just bridge from the Bible.

Yeah, some of the Bible biblical examples are are a little bit more well -known but bridge from that into the early church.

Yeah.

I mean, I'm gonna stop I'm going to stop I'm going to stop right there because I want to

answer the question the way I instantly thought to answer the question

When he asked it, so this is not really that fair because I did listen to this section before.

But if somebody were to ask me how would we make the case biblical biblically.

I.

Would I would.

This is how I'd answer Titus 2 verses 3 through 4.

This is 3 through 5.

This is the Bible directly addresses this.

Is the older women likewise that they be reverent in behavior not slanderers not given to much

wine teachers of good things.

That they admonish the young women to love their husbands to love their children to be

discreet to be chaste homemakers good.

Obedient to their own husbands that the Word of God may not be blasphemed.

Yes, the older women in the church have a crucial role.

That the Bible specifically addresses.

It's a charge that the Bible Specifically gives them and so if you're out there listening to

women and they're not You know admonishing you and teaching you to love your husband.

To love your children to be discreet to be chaste to be homemakers focused on the home

Good obedient to their husbands, then it is not necessary.

You don't need to be listening to them.

It's not the charge that they have to be teaching you all about the intricacies of various

doctrines or how Jesus, you know, you know, we the women can understand Jesus or what was it?

The women understand Jesus more because they bleed or something like that just complete utter complete

Nonsense, just absolute nonsense and a little gross to be honest and not true.

That's the most important thing.

They don't need to be getting their insights from someone who thinks that menstruation is somehow The way that you can

understand Christ better than every guy out there.

It doesn't make any sense.

It's it's complete nonsense.

It's nonsense.

These are the things that they should be teaching and these things there's lots of you say well, that's not that much.

Well, there's a lot that goes into this.

There's a lot that goes into this.

But if you don't think it's that much well tough luck.

That's not it's not me you're arguing with here.

So yeah, it's a crucial role and these are the things they should be focused on these kinds of things.

And there's a lot that goes into that.

There's a lot Like I even think about my own church, you know, my own church

Has a lot of very good qualities to it.

And one of the qualities is that I know what that I know That when the younger women, you

know, my wife is a younger woman.

You know have you know stresses of life and and they're trying to figure out how to Organize their

day and how to you know, get everything that they need to get done and stuff like that.

They talk to each other about this stuff they do and the older women are

very Experienced and they're very helpful and they can they can talk to each other about this stuff.

This is this is the stuff that really really matters in their area

of influence in their in their in their jurisdiction and You know, the thing

is like, you know If you don't see that as a high calling if you don't see that as really that impactful, it's

just not it's not it's not Up, it's not Visible enough.

It's not it doesn't have the the gravitas of the guy up there preaching the words of the Lord Then I'm

sorry, like you you need to understand why God created you how he created what he created you for

I can't it's a it's a high calling.

I Mean the the home is is the central unit of?

Of.

Civilization.

Like what what more do you want?

How much more pressure could you have on yourself?

I mean that's valuable man.

Yeah, it's not gonna get you you know a YouTube channel with You know

snazzy, you know stupid music and and and a room that looks like this to talk about it, but it's it's

important.

It's the actual stuff.

That's really gonna make a difference.

It's the X's and O's it's.

It matters it matters.

It matters.

About this conversation because even in a few hours from now, I'll be doing a whole talk on why we need women in ministry.

And actually deals with a lot of the same issues here and that that whole talk is designed to be an encouragement along the same lines.

We're discussing here, which is that men and women need each other and that is what complementarianism is about, right?

So some people take complementarianism as a way of saying let's separate Men and women from each other in ministry.

They don't really interact.

I'm like, well, no, it's the opposite.

We fit together.

We need each other and that's true from the very beginning and it's true in the early church as you noted.

I've done a good bit of work on particularly second century Christianity, and I was rather shocked just in the academic

space.

You're not shocked by many things.

But I actually was.

I thought I knew what was going on there and I was shocked by just how many women were popping up In the historical sources all over the place.

And in my talk this afternoon, I'll mention a bunch of them.

But one example, you know in very early second century is Christianity spreading some pagan governors plenty.

The younger is really upset about Christianity spreading.

He's looking to find a couple Christians to torture and find out what's really going on in these secret meetings.

And we're told in the historical record that it's two women he finds.

It's just very fascinating that the two people he picks to get more information about Christianity are women.

Because women were flocking to it in great numbers.

So what you see in the very beginning is in the early Christian Church women were Involved in all

kinds of exciting and positive ways and I want to make sure we just keep that in mind as we think about those issues today.

You know when I teach in cultural apologetics one of the second sessions that I lead we focus on

Persecution in the early church and tell the story of Perpetua and Felicity which was one of Augustine's.

Favorite stories to go back to and tell a lot of female martyrs that people don't know about.

Yeah, exactly.

So two of the more well -known ones there Jen.

I Think what we need to frame this as this contribution of women is essential.

It's not just something that's nice to have.

It's not just optional.

It's not just sort of a bonus, but help us understand by describing What makes it essential

like you can't have a well -functioning local church unless you're seeing women contribute in these ways.

Well.

I was actually sitting here ready to edit the title of this session already because it says how men and women can labor

together and I would change it to how they must.

Because the contributions of women are sometimes viewed as being nice, but not necessary.

You think about in particular the things that happen in the all pink spaces, you know.

It's like well, that's whatever they want to do over there and I think in a lot of cases the the all -female

space can suffer from a benign neglect from church leadership, which is male.

Because it's like well, we don't really understand what's happening there and we're happy as long as the women are happy.

It's not seen as a spiritual formation environment so much as it is just a place for women to gather.

That would just be one example.

This is a created problem by the way.

Like this is like I got when I first heard that because I think I'd listen just maybe a little bit more than this.

But when I first heard that I couldn't help but think to myself.

This is a this is a this is a problem of your own creation.

Like if it is a problem at all, which I'm not convinced it is to be honest, but I'm just going with it.

I'm just trying to assume that they're right that this is a big problem that needs to be addressed.

But this is a created problem because what you what what they're talking about are these various programs

in the church, right?

These various programs where it's like the women have their women's study program.

And then the men's have their men breakfast program and stuff like that, and I I don't have any real problem with that necessarily.

I personally don't attend that stuff very often because to me it always has felt

like This is like a way to like force feeds you fellowship

and it just always felt to me and this is this might be a this might be a Character flaw on my part.

I'm not saying this is like the way right?

I'm just telling you my opinion.

But but it always felt like a forced version of fellowship, right and I love fellowship.

But I really like when it's like it feels genuine right like so when I desire fellowship.

You know, I'll call a buddy from church and I'll say hey, you know.

Maybe we can get a couple guys together and you know I don't know go to the cigar lounge or let's go fishing or let's

you know.

Do whatever or like I'll just show you know.

Someone just shows up and helps you do whatever you need to do around the house.

I've heard lots of stories like that, you know, hey, can you come help me fix my engine?

You know, I don't really know how to do that stuff.

Help me out like that kind of stuff like that kind of stuff to me is like that's that's fellowship, right?

You know, what's what doesn't strike me as that, you know, it's not it's not maybe it's helpful in some

ways.

But it's not I don't like it.

Let me just say that this is my opinion.

I don't like it is.

Okay, let's get the guys together and let's go go through this book that Jared Wilson wrote and talk

about it.

Man like I like maybe some of you guys like that and again, maybe it's a character flaw.

I'm just saying but that's I don't think that's like what Necessarily was in mind.

When fellowship was created, right?

That's what I thought what I think so, so, you know, you have this issue.

Well, the women have this benign neglect.

That's another one of her famous terms that she's very, you know, very smart to create a benign neglect.

Well, what she's talking about is like women's Bible study and like women's prayer group and stuff like that or whatever it is

like like it would make no sense to talk about the benign neglect of women's fellowship if if

what she was referring to was.

Like like actual fellowship.

Like, you know, hey, let's get together and you know, go to dinner or something.

Let's go.

Let's get together and and talk about.

I need I need some help with some ideas for you know.

Teaching the kids and you know, I want to talk about what you guys do and let's get the kids together.

They can go play in the backyard.

We can have a conversation about various things like I don't know like it.

This this conversation would make no sense if that's what you're talking about like in my opinion like genuine fellowship.

Right, but it's these it's these like pseudo Bible studies.

That get together and you got the women's and the men's that's not like necessarily the way we should be doing it.

And then it creates this problem where these women we've got a woman teaching Theology to all these other women

and it's it suffers from this benign neglect.

But really like I think some of the more fundamental questions asking should that even exist.

Should we even have these these separate little mini churches inside of our church?

Is that even what the best -case scenario is like what if we just got together?

What if we just hung out.

You know what?

I mean?

What if we just invited three families to the house and we all got together because my church does this sometimes, you know?

A couple families will get together and they'll kids will be playing and the adults are at the dinner table talking and you know.

It's not always spiritual conversations, but often times you get a bunch of Christians together.

They're gonna start talking about theology.

They're gonna be talking about the Lord.

They're gonna be talking about these things and and and like and of course.

It's together because you're there with your wife.

You're there with your family.

Of course, it's together.

Like I don't know like I just it just seems to me that this problem is a problem of our own creation.

If it is a problem at all because I'm again, I'm not granting that for a second, but if it is

Then I could see that this isn't really are we even asking the right questions here.

Are we even asking the right questions about how to solve this problem?

I don't know.

Just food for thought.

Well, but I think what we're seeing in the New Testament one another's is exactly that that.

This is the other thing too.

Like I'm just thinking about myself and again I'm not saying that I'm the best person that did that that knows everything.

But I'm just saying like when the men get together and they're gonna have a theology discussion group I

might mean might be likely to go if they're gonna go through a Jared Wilson book.

I'm definitely not going.

You know what?

I mean?

It doesn't have to be Jared Wilson.

I'm kind of picking on him, but I like any any of these kind of books, you know, I'm talking about Big Eva books.

I'm not gonna go to that.

I'm just not going to go.

Maybe I should go but I'm not going to.

If it's a theology discussion group, okay, maybe I'll go if it's if it's hey, let's get together and have a drink.

Let's get together and go bowling.

Let's get together and have a bonfire.

I'll be there.

I'll be there because I do genuinely like these people.

I genuinely like these people, but I don't know it's like anyway

enough of me, you know revealing my various psychosis the.

Interaction happening in ministry spaces between men and women.

We shouldn't have things just parsed into two different categories.

And if you think about the way that Jesus speaks about the church when his mother and brothers

come looking for him in the Gospels He looks around at the people who are sitting under his teachings as who are my mother and my

brothers and my sisters.

Anyway, he does the will of the Father.

So he he describes the church as the family of God.

And I work again.

This is again.

That's a very natural way to describe it, right?

He's he's he's Jesus is and he's he does this all the time.

Jesus does this all the time where he kind of reveals these spiritual truths through natural things that we all

understand that we all get.

It's a very natural thing.

It's I don't think it applies one -to -one to the various study groups that we have going on in the church at any given time.

And by the way, let me just say this.

I mean, I don't think my family's that weird.

But you know what happens when I get you know.

It's Christmas time and or maybe the week after Christmas because we don't often spend Christmas away from home.

But it's a week after Christmas, you know the week everybody has off and my brother comes to my mother's house.

My sister's at my mother's house me and my family's at my mother's house and we're all there, right?

There are times when we're all together catching up talking this and that and different things that that

and it's just natural.

It just happens.

We're all having a great time.

And guess what?

There are times.

When guess what happens my brother my mother's husband and my and myself.

We all go together and we're all doing whatever it is that we do a lot of times watching football a

lot of times.

We're watching whatever hanging out enjoying each other's company and guess what happens naturally the women go to

the other room and They start chit -chatting about who knows what?

Haha, who knows what I don't want to know.

My brother's wife my sister my mother they're all over there doing whatever my mom's gonna be knitting

whatever and All that kind of stuff and you know, sometimes we'll go back and forth and say hey.

There's one I'm gonna make something you want some coffee you want this you wanna and we'll hang out where but but a lot.

Of times it did naturally get separated and that's okay.

That's good.

That's what happens.

So so even in this example where she thinks she's got this gotcha.

Well, Jesus said, you know, we're all a family Yeah, and you know how real families operate a

lot of the time.

All right.

I'm back.

Lost my train of thought but I'm back.

Here we go.

Sorry that too often we have families in our local churches that if

it was a nuclear family attending our church, we'd be very concerned about.

We have A father who sets the rules we have children who tow the line

and we have an absentee mother.

So when we think about I think I think and this is the thing like you can take these kind of analogies too far.

Right, you got the father you got the children you got the absentee mother.

Maybe there's some churches out there that the mothers are absentee.

I just don't really this is why I say I don't believe this is actually a real problem.

I just I just don't think so I mean, I've been at many churches and I have not seen the situation that

that she's presenting here.

Unless what you are saying when you say that is the visible equivalent to an elder.

That's a woman if you grant that then yeah.

There's a lot of absentee mothers because we don't allow that right?

I thought we were all complementarians here.

So I just don't think that this is a real problem at all.

I don't think that that this is a real problem at all.

I don't grant that for a second.

But if I am to believe her and and and think this is a problem what she is talking about is having.

Again, the equivalent of a female elder, you know.

Maybe obeys the elders like a wife obeys her husband, but is the obvious matriarch?

That's what she's looking for.

I think and I mean, that's that's the opposite of what we want.

That's not what we want.

That's not what the biblical model is.

It just isn't.

So this this problem is something that she's creating.

She's gonna be shadowboxing here, I guess for the rest of this time but that's what she wants to have a

Egalitarian complementarianism is what she wants to have.

Just a healthy family structure.

We would expect that in our local churches which are expressions of the family of God that we would see fathers

and mothers operating in that space.

And again, as you mentioned we would all agree at this table that the role of pastor elder is reserved for

qualified men.

But what we often see in local church expressions is something that we would Be concerned about

if we saw just an actual family that operated along those lines.

I'll add something to that if I can because I think the familial analogy is such a great illustration of what we're talking about here.

You mentioned Jen you got a sort of a very prominent father and an absentee mother as an Analogy of the church.

I would say there's another analogy you could use here.

Is that we wouldn't want sort of normal families to have two fathers and no mothers right.

Or two mothers and no fathers.

In fact, we we've been seeing this in our society for years.

We like no no families need but the father and mother to have the right the right balance and perspective.

Well, that's also true in the church right.

Because we're a big family, so, you know, whether it's a Father that's prominent and a mother that's absent.

But also you don't want a church has only fathers because you end up with another imbalance there.

So I think that familial this is this is so

interesting.

Because just by name recognition all alone and and knowing a little bit about the man Michael Kruger.

Like I feel like he should know better than this.

I really do.

I feel like he should know better than this.

It is it is interesting.

It is interesting because.

You know.

To try to bring this analogy to like have a little more oomph he starts talking about

like homosexuality and and and and and Lesbianism and then maybe

polyamory or something.

I'm not exactly even sure what he's trying to say here.

But I guess it's like this this analogy here.

He's saying like, you know, because it's more than one elder.

That's like two fathers.

So like we don't we know we don't want that because that's gay and you know, you don't want you know.

We know that that's gay.

So we got to have like this.

I Mean, what what what else is he pushing besides?

Egalitarianism.

What else could he be pushing?

I'm just I'm not so sure that this is what he meant by this analogy Jesus and when I say I'm not

so sure I'm positive.

This is not what he had in mind.

Like look my pastor is not my father.

It's not my pastor ideally is a father and He's got children.

But he has a wife too they've got a mother and Then there's

lots of fathers in the church and mothers.

I'm just and I just think that they're.

They're straining this analogy to such a degree that it's just it's totally worthless at this

point.

What what what are they talking about.

I guess we'll find out I mean we're only eight minutes into this analogy is key.

Often I feel like the case for women in the church has seen more to be like you said like what we cannot do versus

What we can do.

But when I was going to seminary what I realized was in the garden how beautiful it is that I was taught

under.

Being glad dr. Glad does a great job of explaining that the temple aspect of the garden and how we were put in

together as co -laborers.

Right and the first time we ever hear God's eternal voice say out of Moses creation It is not good is in the

absence of woman right.

And so what does that mean.

It means that both male and?

That's an interesting way to frame it.

What God said was it's not good that there's no women.

It's not good.

I mean, I guess you could you could kind of get there from what he does say.

But it's a very interesting kind of turn a phrase there to sort of shift the meaning just a little bit the

emphasis just a little bit just a little bit and.

It's what's what's interesting about it to me.

Is that that's such a well -known You know verse it's just such a well -known Utterance of God

is not good for the man to be alone.

But she she remembers it as is not good in the absence of women.

That is.

That is so interesting.

There's probably more there.

I I can't I can't really wrap my head around it right there at this moment.

That is such an interesting interesting.

And it certainly strikes me as sneaky and conniving way to phrase it.

Female together partnering.

Expresses the full image of God in in the ministry or in the temple.

And so we are the church the temple here on earth today.

We want to express that fullness of God of us collaborating together.

So I do think that it's essential.

The case I think is a it's authored by God established by God.

And then shows itself throughout redemptive history and even branching out into as he said the second century church.

Yeah, I think it's interesting that the solution to Adams aloneness is not an elder board.

So, I

mean

you gotta hand it to her she's got some cojones

metaphorically speaking.

Hopefully as far as I know

It's so interesting that God's solution In the garden was not

that he should have an elder board.

Man, you know like this what is this one off this one off the

rails quick, but we're nine minutes in.

We're nine minutes in this is what off the rails

very quick and here's Colin Hanson just yucking it up

face redder than a tomato.

Man I mean I could think of

it's just what what do you even say that like

I mean talk about pitting the Bible against Itself like it's interesting, you know It's interesting

that the solution was a woman.

Oh, yeah, look she's so proud of herself to not an elder board as If there's the Bible

says nothing else as if there's that there's no reason that there's an elders in the church.

The woman is a solution not the elders and whatever happened to the elders being

a gift.

Whatever happened is a literal gift that God gives you.

Howdy.

I can't wrap my mind around this stuff like there's other things that play here, but man the the

two women in this have really They've given they've contributed a lot.

I'll tell you that to this discussion.

Oh boy Colin Hanson here is this nervous laughter cuz he knows how stupid that sounded.

That I mean, that's like that's like 85 IQ stuff.

Colin Hanson here is just chuckling.

It's it's like Does he know that that was dumb?

Is he just gonna agree?

I mean, honestly, I don't even I can't wait to see what happens next.

If my prediction is because I haven't seen this part My prediction is he's just gonna move on as if nothing was

said that was really dumb.

That one should not have made the the cutting room floor.

I'm not saying you know that it isn't important for us to have elder boards, but.

But we see.

I think the problem that you run into when the family of God is essentially motherless is.

Not that women stop looking for a mother.

They go and find a mother outside of the local church in the form of someone who they can find in a virtual space.

And I think sometimes what I wish more church leaders understood was that when you reach that moment

You actually have no idea.

I think it I think it was kind of nervous like laughter and like not knowing what to do with himself.

Because now he's fidgeting with this pen and looking at his little thing and I think it was nervous laughter.

I'll give Colin a little credit.

I mean he.

What is he supposed to do is he's supposed to say Jen that was really stupid.

I mean, he can't do that.

He obviously can't do that.

But I think I think he recognizes how stupid that was.

I don't think he's gonna say anything.

How could he.

How could he say anything.

Which voices?

These women are being influenced by.

I'm one of them.

I hope I'm a credible, you know Remote church mother, but I can't be an embodied church mother.

It could it could be worse, but you're not let me just say that for the women in your church.

Which is also not to say that the only benefit of having embodied church mothers is for the women

in your church in the same Way that in the home a mother has an important influence on

sons.

We need to have visible church mothers functioning in the local church.

Can you imagine the world that she's envisioning here where you know, the men in the church are like

getting like discipled and And and exhorted and and

all these things by by the mothers by the women in the church.

Can you imagine how that would go over?

Man man.

Maybe I've just been in good churches.

I don't know like maybe I've just been lucky and Providence in God's Providence.

He's put me in good churches, but I mean I've had churches where We're we're we're women were involved in

some of these theological discussions and you know, you might just might disagree with that whatever but

Just like The humility was was off the charts and even

there's been a few times where someone said something that I thought was interesting and Then they came after me after

the fact.

I was like, hey, you know, I just want to know, you know I didn't mean to like like correct you or anything like I hadn't even thought of it like it didn't seem like

correction to me just something seemed like an interesting thing to say and I just I was very moved by that like, you

know, like but can you imagine the world that she's that she's envisioning?

Like like the mother, you know acting like an actual mother would with her children to the other

men in the church, I Don't know.

I don't know.

I guess it wasn't the solution to Adam, but it was kind of the solution to Moses's problems.

But you know what's interesting?

Is that in in Exodus 18?

Do you know what his father -in -law says to him?

He says this thing you're doing is not good and then he gives him helpers.

And so it's actually a parallel I think to the Genesis.

Wow.

I'm without speech.

I am without speech.

Did you hear did you hear what Colin said there.

I'm impressed.

Let's go back.

Let me make sure I heard that right.

First of all, because that's.

That's uh, I was not expecting that.

I'm pretty sure.

Colin just Corrected Jen on video

and I got to be honest with it was pretty good

because what Jenna just said was one of the dumbest things I've ever heard and I.

It was nervous laughter.

He started chuckling and then he was kind of fidgeting and stuff like I'm trying to read the body language here.

It's not perfect.

But I I felt like Colin was like Colin knew that was stupid.

My prediction if you remember.

I said, I don't think he's gonna say anything because how could he.

That's what I said.

I said, how could he?

He found a way now.

He got shut down real quick.

I.

Think failed.

Let's listen to that again has an important influence on sons.

We need to have visible church mothers functioning in the local church, I.

Guess it wasn't the solution to Adam, but it was kind of the solution to Moses's problems.

But you know what's interesting is that in in Exodus 18 you get cut off right

there.

Jen Jen Jen is trying to assert herself here a little bit.

And what she says actually doesn't help her case at all, but Colin made a great point.

He's like, you know, he's he's thinking in she's just really just throw shade at elders and saying how

that's not the solution.

And and women are the solution or some stupid Idiotic thing like that.

And so he says well, you know Moses, you know when he was taken on too much, you know.

What did God say?

Basically here.

Here's an elder board.

It's not exactly what he said, but you know what I mean?

He had people to help him shoulder the load.

Good point Colin.

I didn't think of it, but that was a good point.

And I got to give you extra credit for even saying anything because I predicted that you would say nothing.

You said something and I appreciate that.

Gets shut down by Jen Wilkett and what she says makes absolutely, you know what his father -in -law says to him.

He says this thing you're doing is not good and then he gives him helpers.

And so it's actually a parallel I think to the Genesis account that well, yeah, that's right.

It is it is a parallel, but what does that have to do with the issue at hand?

It right.

You just said the solution wasn't an elder board.

Now you're saying it's a parallel account where the solution is the elder board.

Could it be.

I mean, we're all complementarian here, right.

Wink wink wink.

Could it be that maybe what you were saying actually had nothing to do with the issue at hand?

Absolutely, nothing whatsoever.

Nothing as in zero.

Could it be that that you actually drew the wrong conclusion from that that you're out to lunch?

We're all complementarians here after all.

I got to stop there because I am completely floored.

That Colin did that.

I mean Jen is right on message.

I mean she's saying everything I expect her to say at this point.

This woman who knows.

This guy is just kind of along for the ride.

But Colin man a Hero emerges.

I'm speechless.

50 minutes of speechlessness, that's what you get in the video today.

I hope you found this video helpful.

God bless.