Jen Wilkin Back on The Show! - Part 1

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October 9, 2024

Collin Hansen Sounds Off on Jen Wilkin (TGC Style) - Part 2

00:00: All right, everybody. Well, this video is a request and it's gonna be a multi -parter
00:06: I mean, what else can I do? This is just how we do it around here This is by request of just from someone that I just can't say no to you know, it's as simple as that So here we go.
00:25: All right. Yes, we are going to do some more Jen Wilkin content.
00:31: It's not just Jen Wilkin, although she's the main event, of course But but yeah, you know if you haven't watched my
00:38: Jen Wilkin content in the past it has been you know Pretty pretty well received. Although it has not come without controversy
00:46: But if you haven't seen it go to my youtube page and just search Jen Wilkin. It's some of my best stuff
00:52: I'm just gonna come out and say it. It is some of my best stuff if I do say so myself. Well Wonderful.
01:00: Absolutely. Wonderful, but you know gospel coalition, you know, they they they just love her, you know, they just love her and You know that there you go.
01:09: So we're freaking out. We're gonna watch this video It's 41 minutes long put out by the gospel coalition four days ago to a whopping massive just groundswell of support 932 views in four days
01:25: Now I am a very small channel. My channel is not, you know that popular and So I'm not like the
01:32: YouTube expert here But I gotta say I could put just about anything on YouTube and get more than nine hundred and thirty -two views
01:39: And I do mean that just about anything This is pretty bad. And when you compare the the the the subscriber total between gospel coalition and myself
01:50: They've got two hundred and tens of thousands subscribers and I've got under 20 ,000
01:57: So that is quite saying something so we're gonna you know Let's turn the closed captioning off because I cannot stand that and let's just jump into this and see how far we get
02:06: I I will admit I watched the first 10 minutes of this and I told my the person who
02:12: Recommended it. I told them. Hey, you were right. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. So I I've seen the first 10 minutes
02:19: I have not seen anything past that so we're gonna just gonna do it the way we normally do it. Let's go And the family of God is essentially motherless is not that women stop looking for a mother
02:32: They go and find a mother outside of the local church in the form of someone who they can find in a virtual space
02:38: I think that's her big line You know, she she's she obviously worked hard on that line and I give her all the credit
02:45: I mean it takes a lot of work To come up with you know a pithy sort of way to get your points across and so hats off I'm not even joking totally serious the the church in America is essentially motherless motherless
03:00: And it's not that they stop looking for a mother. They just look for a mother outside the church No, I gotta say that is sad.
03:06: That makes me sad That makes me sad. It's a you know, and and it may be it's even a real problem and this is the thing this is the problem with so much gospel coalition content like They do a lot of shadowboxing and they do make mountains out of molehills
03:22: They are the the proverbial Don Quixote, you know slaying windmills and saying that they're they're giants
03:29: So it's it's hard to you know, you got to suspend disbelief when you're watching gospel coalition content
03:34: But I'm gonna try my best to just assume that this is a real problem, right?
03:41: This is a real problem in the church The church is motherless and they're not gonna stop searching for a mother just gonna find a non -christian mother and that's the problem
03:49: And so we need to really rediscover the role of women in the church. That's the premise of this and I have my opinions about that.
03:59: I Well, I'll just say it. I don't think that's true But let's just say it is true and let's let's let's see if the the diagnosis and these and the and the the treatment match up Some elders operate some some pastors not all operate with a paradigm that has a view of men and women that I think
04:19: Negatively affects their shepherding. I guess it helps us to see that we shouldn't be calibrating the biblical teaching to Counterbalancing a biblical a cultural narrative because the
04:29: Bible itself is the norm I bet
04:44: I mean Look at this. Look at this scene here. It is like Perfectly curated
04:51: Looks like they're having a conversation in a museum You know, like this is like a museum set piece and they're having this conversation.
04:59: I bet you a lot of money went into Figuring out the the proper decor the proper coloring the proper
05:06: You know how to set up the this the perfect spot for this little plant over here How to set it up to be as non -threatening and as winsome as possible.
05:17: I like this is This Reminds me of when
05:23: I would get pulled into meetings, you know with HR and you know someone that I you know worked for me and I'd have to sit through these meetings with someone has a problem with this and that That's what it looks like.
05:34: It just reminds me of that and I just be in this room And I just want to blow my own brains out.
05:39: This is like the worst Thing ever I would never want to be in that room But this is what it looked like it had a stupid impressionist like whatever and that's not even impress
05:49: It's just abstract like this is what it looked like being in corporate America and nothing was worse
05:55: It was so terrible. It was so terrible not not the whole experience of corporate America, but like the
06:00: HR experience It's the worst -case scenario. It's like nothing is worse than that. If you work in a corporate situation, you know what
06:07: I mean? You know what? I mean? You got the two women in the middle, of course because of course we were valuing their contribution very much
06:14: I don't know who this is, but you know, I Wish I wish sometimes
06:24: I wish you guys could be inside my brain just the things that I think but But but yeah, this is
06:32: If you get called to a meeting and then like the people that are calling the meeting you walk in and you see this group
06:39: You know, you're in for a bad time That's the point where you say hold on I have to use the restroom and you take your secret flask and you start taking a few, you know a few snorts, but Self is telling us
06:56: It's a beautiful story Beautiful story Equipping the next generation of believers
07:03: Pastors and church leaders to shape life and ministry around the gospel
07:08: Today is a special episode titled partners in ministry how men and women must labor together for the good of the church
07:16: Welcome to the gospel. Imagine being like a man Could you imagine being a man?
07:22: I can imagine being a man Can you imagine me a man like a pastor or or I don't know some kind of leader in the church and Like really like really caring at all how
07:34: Jen Wilkin thinks you should run your church I just get
07:42: I can't even begin to understand why someone bill Oh, yeah, we got to sit at the feet of Jen Wilkin to figure out how to run our churches
07:49: My goodness, it is brutal I can't even put myself in that frame and everything about gap said this so many times
07:56: But everything about the gospel coalition presentation, it just screams out. We are effeminates and happy with it
08:03: It's just nothing is appealing about this. Nothing is appealing about this. This is the worst the worst
08:10: Volition podcast, my name is Colin Hanson. I serve as the editor -in -chief of the gospel Colin Hanson looks like very exciting topic
08:18: That's Colin Hanson's in ministry how men and women can labor together for the good of the church
08:25: I'm excited about this conversation in part because you often hear about the problems or the limitations
08:30: But we're gonna be talking it's enough to it's enough to make you really think, you know Maybe there is something the seed oil thing.
08:36: It's a nut. I'm about to go upstairs and tell them I've get rid of all the seed oils Really about the positives about Encouragements and ways that we see
08:49: God working well between men and women in the church today Joined by some good friends here.
08:54: Would you guys go ahead Jen start with us introduce yourself and just keep going around I'm Jen. Well, do you think they have anything in there in their cups?
09:01: I mean, I always think about this like when we did the video with With what was the video?
09:07: I don't know I said this in a recent video or I was wondering if there's really anything in their cups Like they've got these cups of coffee very tastefully selected
09:16: Mugs and they each have one and they have it in front of them. And is there anything in them though?
09:22: I don't see any steam rising. Is it just water? I just got their water there. I don't know. I Don't know
09:29: What do you think's in their cups? Because if I was if I was at this meeting, I'll tell you what would be in my cup
09:36: I would not be allowed in Baptist churches Whatever was in my cup and and I'm an author and Bible teacher and have served in the local church
09:46: Forescore My name is Corey Porter, I work in the background in campus ministry and right now in nonprofit life
09:56: I'm Mike Kruger. I'm president and professor of New Testament at Reformed Theological Seminary in Charlotte, North Carolina So there are many things that we all share in common
10:05: There are ways that we would be different from each other as well But one of the areas that we share in common and within the gospel coalition is sharing a broad
10:15: Complementary and perspective that the office of pastor and elder is reserved for qualified qualified men and Qualified men.
10:24: Yes, that's the that's the shield. That's the Teflon. You know, you can't say that I'm Dangerous or saying dangerous things because I believe that the office of pastor elder shepherd, whatever
10:36: It's it's it's reserved for qualified men That's how you know that it's good.
10:42: It's like Teflon you wear it like Teflon Do you even wear Teflon or is it Kevlar? It's Kevlar That's Kevlar That's the thing and I think what's probably gonna come up again and again and again in this video
10:54: Is you got to ask yourself? Why did God make that rule? You know what? I mean?
10:59: Like why is it that only qualified qualified men are to be elders in the church?
11:06: Why is it is it just this random thing that God just said I'm gonna put this Stipulation just to see if they obey me just to see there's really no reason for it
11:16: Because as we all know women have all the gifts that men have of course Let's just see if they obey me.
11:23: Is it that or is it that he created men to be a certain way? Is it that he created men to act and and have certain attributes that were better for that and do those attributes do those do those do those, you know qualities of Masculinity do they transfer over into other areas that maybe
11:42: I don't speak on directly I don't say I don't make the rule. Does it transfer? Is it more that or is it more just this kind of random thing?
11:51: That's the question. You need to ask yourself when you're having a conversation like this and So, you know, let's let's continue the same time
11:59: We all agree that the body of Christ functions best when all of its members are
12:04: Valued and encouraged to use their gift, you know often these conversations are about what women can't do
12:12: Many of the denominational debates that we see are often focused on the things that women cannot do
12:18: And those can be important discussions But we also want to continually affirm all the many many things that God has called women to do in the church
12:27: And those are crucial discussions They're absolutely crucial because you gotta you gotta also put these kinds of conversations in context, right?
12:35: like those are crucial discussions to have and it's no wonder why those are the ways that we have these conversations because the push of everything
12:45: Everything everything every part of the world the push of everything is to say we've got you know men and women they both have talents and they're the exact same talents and they should be able to men women can do anything men
12:58: Can do they're capable of everything men are capable of and it's causing havoc on the world in every area
13:07: So, of course, we're going to talk about the things that women can't do Because that's where that's the port where we're being pushed right now.
13:15: That's the exact area that's being challenged and so, of course, it's like that, of course, and Talk about the what the role of women should be in the church because actually the
13:29: Bible specifically addresses this This is something that's specifically addressed in the scripture
13:36: We have a word from the Lord on this So, of course, we should we preach the whole counsel of God, right?
13:42: We teach the whole counsel of God but of Course, we're gonna talk more about what women can't do when that's the area where pressure is being applied
13:52: To the church, but also everywhere everywhere else I'm I'm I always
13:59: I always couldn't stand that there was that one song where it's like they only know
14:04: They don't know what we're for only one we're against when you judge the wounded
14:10: And I always thought that was so stupid Of course, they know we're against because they're pushing pushing pushing the the issue on every area that we have to be against So, of course, they're gonna know what we're against more than what we're for And alongside men
14:27: So I just want to start with the basic question of how would you make the case that the church? Needs the ministry of women and I thought
14:34: Mike that we begin with you and just look at a historical perspective One of the things that you teach you're an expert in is the early church
14:42: Talk about that. Maybe even just bridge from the Bible Yeah Some of the Bible biblical examples are are a little bit more well known but bridge from that into the early church
14:49: Yeah, I'm gonna stop. I'm going to stop I'm going to stop right there because I want to answer the question the way
14:58: I instantly thought to answer the question When he asked it, so this is not really that fair because I did listen to this section before But if somebody were to ask me, how would we make the case biblical bib?
15:12: biblically I Would I would this is how
15:18: I'd answer Titus 2 verses 3 through 4. This is 3 through 5.
15:23: This is the Bible directly addresses this Is the older women likewise that they be reverent in behavior not slanderers not given to much wine teachers of good things
15:35: That they admonish the young women to love their husbands to love their children to be discreet to be chaste
15:44: Homemakers good Obedient to their own husbands that the Word of God may not be blaspheme
15:50: Yes, the older women in the church have a crucial role That the
15:56: Bible specifically addresses. It's a charge that the Bible Specifically gives them and so if you're out there listening to women and they're not
16:05: You know admonishing you and teaching you to love your husband To love your children to be discreet to be chaste to be homemakers focused on the home
16:16: Good obedient to their husbands Then it is not Necessary you don't need to be listening to them
16:24: It's not the charge that they have to be teaching you all about the intricacies of various doctrines or how?
16:31: Jesus, you know, you know, we the women can understand Jesus or was it The women understand
16:37: Jesus more because they bleed or something like that just complete utter complete Nonsense, just absolute nonsense and a little gross to be honest and not true.
16:48: That's the most important thing They don't need to be getting their insights from someone who thinks that menstruation is somehow
16:54: The way that you can understand Christ better than every guy out there. It doesn't make any sense.
16:59: It's it's complete nonsense It's nonsense These are the things that they should be teaching and these things there's lots of you say well, well, that's not that much
17:09: Well, there's a lot that goes into this There's a lot that goes into this But if you don't think it's that much well tough luck.
17:17: That's not it's not me you're arguing with here So yeah, it's a crucial role and these are the things they should be focused on these kinds of things
17:26: And there's a lot that goes into that. There's a lot Like I even think about my own church, you know my own church
17:34: Has a lot of very good qualities to it. And one of the qualities is that I know what that I know
17:40: That when the younger women, you know, my wife is a younger woman you know have you know stresses of life and and they're trying to figure out how to Organize their day and how to you know, get everything that they need to get done and stuff like that They talk to each other about this stuff they do and the older women are very
18:02: Experienced and they're very helpful and they can they can talk to each other about this stuff This is this is the stuff that really really matters in their area of influence in their in their in their jurisdiction and You know the thing is like, you know
18:20: If you don't see that as a high calling if you don't see that as really that impactful. It's just not it's not it's not
18:27: It's not Visible enough. It's not it doesn't have the the gravitas of the guy up there preaching the words of the
18:34: Lord Then I'm sorry like you you need to understand why God created you how he created you for I can't it's a it's a high calling.
18:45: I mean the the home is is the central unit of Civilization Like what what more do you want?
18:56: How much more pressure could you have on yourself, I mean that's valuable man, yeah, it's not gonna get you, you know
19:07: YouTube channel with You know snazzy, you know stupid music and and and a room that looks like this to talk about it, but it's it's important It's the actual stuff.
19:18: That's really gonna make a difference. It's the X's and O's it's It matters it matters
19:24: It matters About this conversation because even in a few hours from now,
19:29: I'll be doing a whole talk on why we need women in ministry And actually deals with a lot of the same issues here and that that whole talk is designed to be an encouragement along the same lines
19:37: We're discussing here, which is that men and women need each other and that is what complementarianism is about, right?
19:43: So some people take complementarianism as a way of saying let's separate Men and women from each other in ministry.
19:49: They don't really interact. I'm like, well, no, it's the opposite We fit together. We need each other and that's true from the very beginning and it's true in the early church
19:56: As you noted I've done a good bit of work on particularly second century Christianity and I was rather shocked
20:03: There's in the academic space. You're not shocked by many things But I actually was I thought I knew what was going on there and I was shocked by just how many women were popping up In the historical sources all over the place
20:12: And in my talk this afternoon, I'll mention a bunch of them But one example, you know in very early second century is
20:19: Christianity spreading some pagan governors plenty The younger is really upset about Christianity spreading He's looking to find a couple
20:25: Christians to torture and find out what's really going on in these secret meetings And we're told in the historical record that it's two women.
20:30: He finds It's just very fascinating that the two people he picks to get more information about Christianity are women
20:35: Because women were flocking to it in great numbers So what you see in the very beginning is that in the early? Christian church women were involved in all kinds of exciting and positive ways
20:45: And I want to make sure we just keep that in mind as we think about those issues today You know when I teach in cultural apologetics one of the second
20:53: Sessions that I lead we focus on persecution in the early church and tell the story of perpetua and felicity
20:59: Which was one of Augustine's favorite stories to go back to and tell a lot of female martyrs that people don't know about Yeah, exactly.
21:06: So two of the more well -known ones there Jen I Think we need to frame this as this contribution of women is essential.
21:14: It's not just something that's nice to have It's not just optional. It's not just sort of a bonus
21:19: But help us understand by describing what makes it essential like you can't have a well -functioning local church
21:25: Unless you're seeing women contribute in these ways well I was actually sitting here ready to edit the title of this session already because it says how men and women can labor together and I Would change it to how they must
21:37: Because the contributions of women are sometimes viewed as being nice, but not necessary You think about in particular the things that happen in the all pink spaces, you know, it's like well
21:48: That's whatever they want to do over there and I think in a lot of cases the the all -female space can suffer from a benign neglect from church leadership, which is male
21:59: Because it's like well, we don't really understand what's happening there and we're happy as long as the women are happy It's not seen as a spiritual formation environment so much as it is just a place for women to gather
22:09: That would just be one example This is a created problem by the way Like this is like I got when
22:14: I first heard that because I think I'd listen just maybe a little bit more than this But when I first heard that I couldn't help but think to myself
22:23: This is a this is a this is a problem of your own creation Like if it is a problem at all, which
22:28: I'm not convinced it is to be honest, but I'm just going with it I'm just trying to assume that they're right that this is a big problem that needs to be addressed
22:34: But this is a created problem because what you what what they're talking about are these various programs in the church, right?
22:41: these various programs where it's like the women have their women's study program and then the men's have their men breakfast program and stuff like that and I I don't have any real problem with that necessarily.
22:52: I Personally don't attend that stuff very often because to me it always has felt like This is like a way to like force feed you fellowship and it just always felt to me and this is this might be a this might be a
23:08: Character flaw on my part. I'm not saying this is like the way right? I'm just telling you my opinion But but it always felt like a forced version of fellowship, right?
23:17: And I love fellowship, but I really like when it's like it feels genuine, right?
23:22: Like so when I desire fellowship, you know I'll call a buddy from church and I'll say hey, you know
23:30: Maybe we can get a couple guys together and you know I don't know go to the cigar lounge or let's go fishing or let's you know
23:36: Do whatever or like I'll just show, you know Someone just shows up and helps you do whatever you need to do around the house I've heard lots of stories like that, you know, hey, can you come help me fix my engine?
23:45: You know, I don't really know how to do that stuff Help me out like that kind of stuff like that kind of stuff to me is like that's that's fellowship, right?
23:52: You know, what's what doesn't strike me as that? You know, it's not it's not maybe it's helpful in some ways
23:58: But it's not I don't like it. Let me just say that it's my opinion. I don't like it is
24:03: Okay, let's get the guys together and let's go go through this book that Jared Wilson wrote and talk about it
24:10: I don't know man. Like I like maybe some of you guys like that and again, maybe it's a character flaw
24:15: I'm just saying but that's I don't think that's like what Necessarily was in mind
24:21: When fellowship was created, right? That's what I thought what I think so so, you know, you have this issue
24:27: Well, the women have this benign neglect That's another one of her famous terms that she's very, you know, very smart to create a benign neglect
24:34: Well, what she's talking about is like women's Bible study and like women's prayer group and stuff like that or whatever it is like like it would make no sense to talk about the benign neglect of women's fellowship if if what she was referring to was
24:48: Like like actual fellowship Like, you know, hey, let's get together and you know, go to dinner or something
24:55: Let's get together and and talk about I need I need some help with some ideas for you know Teaching the kids and you know,
25:01: I want to talk about what you guys do and let's get the kids together They can go play in the backyard. We can have a conversation about various things like I don't know like it
25:08: It's this this conversation would make no sense If that's what you're talking about like in my opinion like genuine fellowship
25:15: Right, but it's these it's these like pseudo Bible studies that get together and you got the women's and the men's that's not like Necessarily the way we should be doing it and then it creates this problem where these women we've got a woman teaching theology to all these other women and It's it suffers from this benign neglect.
25:33: But really like I think some of the more fundamental questions asking should that even exist? Should we even have these these separate little mini churches inside of our church?
25:45: Is that even what the best -case scenario is like what if we just got together?
25:51: What if we just hung out You know what? I mean? What if we just invited three families to the house and we all got together because my church does this sometimes
25:59: You know a couple families will get together and they'll kids will be playing and the adults are at the dinner table talking And you know, it's not always spiritual conversations, but often times you get a bunch of Christians together
26:09: They're gonna start talking about theology. They can talk be talking about the Lord They're gonna be talking about these things and and and like and of course it's together because you're there with your wife
26:19: You're there with your family. Of course, it's together Look, I don't know like I just it just seems to me that this problem is a problem of our own creation
26:29: If it is a problem at all because I'm again, I'm not granting that for a second, but if it is
26:35: Then I could see that this isn't really are we even asking the right questions here? Are we even asking the right questions about how to solve this problem?
26:43: I don't know just food for thought But I think what we're seeing in the New Testament one another's is exactly that that This is the other thing too.
26:53: Like I'm just thinking about myself and again I'm not saying that I'm the best person that did that that knows everything
26:58: But I'm just saying like when the men get together and they're gonna have a theology discussion group I might mean might be likely to go if they're gonna go through a
27:07: Jared Wilson book. I'm definitely not going You know what? I mean? It doesn't have to be Jared Wilson I'm kind of picking on him but like any any of these kind of books, you know,
27:14: I'm talking about Big Eva books I'm not gonna go to that. I'm just not going to go Maybe I should go but I'm not going to If it's a theology discussion group, okay, maybe
27:23: I'll go if it's if it's hey, let's get together and have a drink Let's get together and go bowling. Let's get together and have a bonfire.
27:30: I'll be there I'll be there cuz I do genuinely like these people. I genuinely like these people
27:38: But I don't know it's like anyway Enough of me, you know Revealing my various psychosis the interaction happening in ministry spaces between men and women
27:51: We shouldn't have things just parsed into two different categories And if you think about the way that Jesus speaks about the church when his mother and brothers come looking for him in the
28:02: Gospels He looks around at the people who are sitting under his teachings as who are my mother and my brothers and my sisters
28:07: Anyway, he does the will of the Father So he he describes the church as the family of God and I work again this is again
28:15: You're that's a very natural way to describe it, right? He's he's he's Jesus is and he's it does this all the time
28:22: Jesus does this all the time where he kind of reveals these spiritual truths Through natural things that we all understand that we all get.
28:29: It's a very natural thing It's I don't think it applies one -to -one to the various study groups that we have going on in the church at any given time
28:38: And by the way, let me just say this I mean, I don't think my family's that weird But you know what happens when
28:46: I get you know It's Christmas time and or maybe the week after Christmas because we don't often spend Christmas away from home
28:51: But it's a week after Christmas, you know the week everybody has off and my brother comes to my mother's house
28:57: My sister's at my mother's house me and my family's at my mother's house and we're all there, right?
29:02: There are times when we're all together Catching up talking this and that and different things that that and it's just natural it just happens
29:11: We're all having a great time and guess what there are times When guess what happens my brother my mother's husband and my and myself
29:20: We all go together and we're all doing whatever it is that we do a lot of times watching football
29:27: A lot of times we're watching whatever Hanging out and join each other's company and guess what happens naturally the women go to the other room and they start chit -chatting about Who knows what?
29:39: Who knows what I Don't want to know My brother's wife my sister my mother they're all over there doing whatever
29:49: My mom's gonna be knitting whatever and all that kind of stuff and you know Sometimes we'll go back and forth and say hey, you know,
29:55: I'm gonna make something you want some coffee And we'll hang out where but but but a lot of times it did naturally get separated and that's okay
30:04: That's good That's what happens So so even in this example where she thinks she's got this got you.
30:14: Oh Jesus said, you know, we're all a family Yeah, and you know how real families operate a lot of the time
30:24: All right. I'm back I Lost my train of thought but I'm back.
30:29: Here we go that too often we have families in our local churches that if it was a nuclear family attending our church, we'd be very concerned about we have a father who
30:42: Sets the rules we have children who tow the line and we have an absentee mother So when we think about I think
30:49: I think and this is the thing like you can take these kind of analogies too far Right, you got the father you got the children you got the absentee mother
30:58: Maybe there's some churches out there that the mothers are absentee. I just don't really this is why
31:03: I say I don't believe this is actually a real problem. I just I just don't think so I mean, I've been at many churches and I have not seen the situation that that she's presenting here
31:15: Unless what you are saying when you say that is the visible equivalent to an elder
31:20: That's a woman if you grant that then yeah, there's a lot of absentee mothers because we don't allow that right?
31:28: I thought we were all complementarians here So I just don't think that this is a real problem at all.
31:34: I don't think that that this is a real problem at all I don't grant that for a second But if I am to believe her and and and think this is a problem what she is talking about is having again the equivalent of a female elder
31:49: You know, maybe obeys the elders like a wife obeys her husband, but is the obvious matriarch
31:55: That's what she's looking for. I think and I mean, that's that's the opposite of what we want.
32:02: That's not what we want. That's not what the biblical model is It just isn't so this this problem is something that she's creating.
32:09: She's gonna be shadowboxing here I guess for the rest of this time, but that's what she wants to have a
32:15: Egalitarian complementarianism is what she wants to have Just a healthy family structure We would expect that in our local churches which are expressions of the family of God that we would see fathers and mothers operating in that space
32:28: And again, as you mentioned we would all agree at this table that the role of pastor elder is reserved for qualified men but what we often see in local church expressions is something that we would be concerned about if we saw just an
32:44: Actual family that operated along those lines I'll add something to that if I can because I think the familial analogy is such a great
32:51: Illustration of what we're talking about here You mentioned Jen you got a sort of a very prominent father and absentee mother as an analogy of the church
32:58: I would say there's another analogy you could use here is that we wouldn't want sort of normal families to have two fathers and no mothers
33:04: Right or two mothers and no fathers In fact, we we've been seeing this in our society for years and we like no no families need
33:10: But the father and a mother to have the right the right balance and perspective well, that's also true in the church right because we're a big family, so, you know, whether it's a
33:19: Father that's prominent and a mother that's absent But also you don't want to church has only fathers because you end up with another imbalance there.
33:26: So I think that familial This is this is so interesting
33:34: Because Just by name recognition all alone and and knowing a little bit about the man
33:40: Michael Kruger Like I feel like he should know better than this.
33:46: I really do. I feel like he should know better than this It is it is interesting it is interesting because You know
33:59: To try to bring this analogy to like have a little more oomph. He starts talking about like homosexuality and and and and and and Lesbianism and then maybe polyamory or something.
34:15: I'm not exactly even sure what he's trying to say here But I guess it's like this this analogy here.
34:21: He's saying like, you know, because it's more than one elder. That's like two fathers so like we don't we know we don't want that because that's gay and You know, you don't want you know, we know that that's gay.
34:32: So we got to have like this. I Mean, what what what else is he pushing besides egalitarianism?
34:40: What else could he be pushing I'm just I'm not so sure that this is what he meant by this analogy
34:49: Jesus and when I say I'm not so sure I'm Positive. This is not what he had in mind
34:56: Like look my pastor is not my father It's not my pastor ideally is a father and He's got children
35:08: But he has a wife too They've got a mother and Then there's lots of fathers in the church and mothers.
35:19: I'm just and I just think that they're They're straining this analogy to such a degree that it's just it's totally worthless at this point
35:30: What what what are they talking about I guess we'll find out I mean we're only eight minutes into this analogy is key
35:38: Often I feel like the case for women in the church has seen more to be like you said like what we cannot do versus What we can do
35:45: But when I was going to seminary what I realized was in the garden how beautiful it is that I was taught under being glad Dr Glad does a great job of explaining that the temple aspect of the garden and how we were put in together as co -laborers
35:59: Right, and the first time we ever hear God's eternal voice say out of Moses creation It is not good is in the absence of woman.
36:06: Hmm, right? And so what does that mean? It means that both male and That's an interesting way to frame it what
36:13: God said was it's not good that there's no women It's not good I mean, I guess you could you could kind of get there from what he does say
36:21: But it's a very interesting kind of turn a phrase there to sort of shift the meaning just a little bit the emphasis just a little bit just a little bit and And it's what's what's interesting about it to me is that that's such a well -known
36:35: You know verse it's just such a well -known Utterance of God is not good for the man to be alone
36:45: But she she remembers it as is not good in the absence of women That is
36:53: That is so interesting. There's probably more there. I I can't I can't really wrap my head around it right there at this moment
36:59: That is such an interesting interesting And it certainly strikes me as sneaky and conniving way to phrase it female together partnering
37:13: Expresses the full image of God in in the ministry or in the temple And so we are the church the temple here on earth today
37:19: We want to express that fullness of God of us collaborating together So I do think that it's essential the case
37:26: It's authored by God established by God and then shows itself throughout redemptive history and even branching out into as he said the
37:33: Second -century church Yeah, I think it's interesting that the solution to Adams aloneness is not an elder board
37:43: So I mean you got a hand it to her she's got some cojones metaphorically speaking
38:06: Hopefully as far as I know I'll say as far as I know
38:16: It's so interesting that God's solution In the garden was not that he should have an elder board
38:33: Man you know like this what is this one off this one off the rails quick, but we're nine minutes in We're nine minutes in This is what off the rails very quick And here's
38:52: Colin Hanson just yuckin it up face redder than a tomato
39:08: Man I mean I could think of It's just what do you even say that like I mean talk about pitting the
39:24: Bible against itself like it's interesting You know it's interesting that the solution was a woman.
39:31: Oh, yeah, look. She's so proud of herself, too Not an elder board As if there's the
39:37: Bible says nothing else as if there's that there's no reason that there's a there's this elders in the church
39:45: The woman is a solution not the elders and whatever happened to the elders being a gift
39:52: Whatever happened is a literal gift that God gives you And I Can't wrap my mind around this stuff like there's other things that play here, but man
40:06: The two women in this have really They've given they've contributed a lot. I'll tell you that to this discussion.
40:13: Oh boy Colin Hanson here is this nervous laughter cuz he knows how stupid that sounded
40:20: That I mean that's like that's like 85 IQ stuff And this Colin Hanson here is just chuckling
40:28: It's it's like does he know that that was dumb I Don't even
40:37: I can't wait to see what happens next if my prediction is Because I haven't seen this part my prediction is he's just gonna move on as if nothing was said that was really dumb
40:48: That one should not have made the the cutting room floor I'm not saying you know that it isn't important for us to have elder boards, but But we see
41:00: I think the problem that you run into when the family of God is essentially motherless is Not that women stop looking for a mother
41:08: They go and find a mother outside of the local church in the form of someone who they can find in a virtual space
41:15: And I think sometimes what I wish more church leaders understood was that when you reach that moment
41:21: You actually have no idea I think it I think it was kind of nervous like laughter and like not knowing what to do with himself
41:27: Because now he's fidgeting with this pen and looking at his little thing, and I think it was nervous laughter
41:34: I'll give Colin a little credit. I mean he What is he supposed to do is he's supposed to say Jen that was really stupid
41:40: I mean he can't do that he obviously can't do that, but I think I think he recognizes how stupid that was
41:46: I don't think he's gonna say anything. How could he how could he say anything which voices?
41:52: These women are being influenced by I'm one of them. I hope I'm a credible. You know
41:57: Remote church mother, but I can't be an embodied church mother It could it could be worse, but you're not let me just say that for the women in your church
42:06: Which is also not to say that the only benefit of having embodied church mothers is for the women in your church in the same
42:14: Way that in the home a mother has an important influence on sons We need to have visible church mothers functioning in the local church
42:25: Can you imagine the world that she's envisioning here where you know the men in the church are like getting like discipled and And and exhorted and and all these things by by the mothers by the women in the church
42:41: Can you imagine how that would go over? man man
42:47: Maybe I've just been in good churches. I don't know like maybe I've just been lucky and Providence in God's Providence.
42:53: He's put me in good churches, but I mean I've had churches where We're we're we're women were involved in some of these theological discussions, and you know you might just might disagree with that whatever but Just like The humility was was off the charts and even there's been a few times where someone said something that I thought was interesting and Then they came after me after after the fact.
43:17: It's like hey, you know I just want to know you know I didn't mean to like Correct you or anything like I didn't even thought of it like it didn't seem like correction to me
43:24: It just seemed like an interesting thing to say and I just I was very moved by that like you know like But can you imagine the world that she's that she's envisioning?
43:34: Like like the mother you know acting like an actual mother would with her children to the other men in the church
43:41: I Don't know. I don't know I guess it wasn't the solution to Adam But it was kind of a solution to Moses's problems
43:50: But you know what's interesting Is that in in Exodus 18? Do you know what his father -in -law says to him?
43:57: He says this thing you're doing is Not good, and then he gives him helpers, and so it's actually a parallel.
44:03: I think to the Genesis Wow I'm without speech.
44:28: I am without speech Did you hear did you hear what
44:33: Colin said there? I'm impressed
44:40: Let's go back. Let me make sure I heard that right first of all because that's That's I was not expecting that.
44:50: I'm pretty sure Colin just Corrected Jen on video, and I got to be honest.
45:00: It was pretty good because what
45:06: Jenna just said was one of the dumbest things I've ever heard and I It was nervous laughter
45:13: He started chuckling and then he was kind of fidgeting and stuff like I'm rich I'm trying to read the body language hierarchy.
45:18: It's not perfect, but I felt like Colin was like Colin knew that was stupid My prediction if you remember
45:24: I said, I don't think he's gonna say anything cuz how could he that's what I said I said, how could he? He found a way now
45:33: He got shut down real quick Tried to shut him down, but I think failed let's listen to that again has an important influence on sons
45:44: We need to have visible church mothers Functioning in the local church. I Guess it wasn't the solution to Adam, but it was kind of a solution to Moses's problems
45:54: But you know what's interesting Go ahead. Is that in in Exodus 18 you can get cut off right there
46:01: Jen Jen Jen is trying to assert herself here a little bit And what she says actually doesn't help her case at all, but Colin made a great point
46:10: He's like, you know, he's he's thinking in she's just She's really just throw shade at elders and saying how that's not the solution and women or the solution or some stupid
46:21: Idiotic thing like that. And so he says well, you know when Moses, you know when he was taking on too much, you know What did God say?
46:27: Basically here. Here's an elder board. It's not exactly what he said, but you know what? I mean, he had people to help him shoulder the load
46:34: Good point Colin. I didn't think of it, but that was a good point And I got to give you extra credit for even saying anything because I Predicted that you would say nothing you said something and I appreciate that Gets shut down by Jen Wilkett and what she says makes absolutely.
46:49: You know what his father -in -law says to him He says this thing you're doing is not good and then he gives him helpers
46:56: And so it's actually a parallel I think to the Genesis account that well, yeah, that's right It is it is a parallel but what does that have to do with the issue at hand?
47:06: It right you just said the solution wasn't an elder board Now you're saying it's a parallel account where the solution is the elder board
47:17: Could it be I mean, we're all complementarian here, right wink wink wink
47:23: Could it be that maybe what you were saying actually had nothing to do with the issue at hand?
47:29: Absolutely, nothing whatsoever. Nothing as in zero Could it be that that you actually drew the wrong conclusion from that that you're out to lunch
47:39: We're all complementarians here after all I got to stop there because I am completely floored
47:49: That Colin did that. I mean Jen is right on message I mean she's saying everything
47:54: I expect her to say at this point this woman who knows This guy is just kind of along for the ride but Colin man a
48:05: Hero emerges I'm speechless 50 minutes of speechlessness.