TiL- Reformed Covenant Theology pt 8

Cling to the cross then Put both arms around it Hold to the crucified And never let him go. Come afresh to the cross at this moment and rest there now and forever. Then With the power of God resting upon you Go forth And preach the cross.

Opening Banter and Show Introduction

Welcome y 'all to the labors labors.

Rewind. It's Monday. Welcome to the labors podcast. That's it's not. Welcome to the truth and love I guess.

On the truth and love network. Labors podcast is coming up this Thursday. Join us on the truth and love network this Thursday for labors podcast. This is through the love network. We are in chapter 8 of Reform covenant theology by Harrison Perkins.

Stick with us. Welcome welcome. Welcome. The comment line is open. We would love to hear from you. Whether you're watching live or you're watching or listening later. Thank you for joining us Dan. Troy, how are you doing brothers?

Good. Good.

Tired. I'm right there with you right there with you. Be happy to be alive though. I'm happy. I've been in the Sun all day and That's a good perspective.

Feel the Sun. I was not in the Sun. I was lifting boxes of Bloody Mary mix all day. Oh.

Okay.

Well, I will leave any jokes with that one aside.

We were not drinking the Bloody Mary mix. We're simply moving it from one place to another. Hey, we all. We all take things up when we put them down.

I'm working a warehouse. I was gonna ask if you were just picking up tomatoes. I thought that might have been the thing I was like, I don't know those tomato sauce.

Pretty much like veggie tails.

The.

This was hilarious, I've got to tell you guys this story so a group of men from my church.

To.

Last weekend. Or the weekend before I can't remember so it was a Neighboring church down the road. They had a men's conference. And so a group of men from our church went to this conference and so I take my dad he and I we go in and They're serving supper.

And when we first go in, of course, we get our name tags, whatever we go find us a table we we go to the closest table that that there is and.

There's.

Already two older gentlemen sitting there so my dad and I. We sit down and we began to have conversation with these two older gentlemen and. The first guy who was sitting right beside me he said hi. My name is Bob.

My friend his name is Larry. I said no way. There's got to be no way. He said what I'm like, you know Bob the tomato and Larry the cucumber. What he had no clue what I was talking about. Almost in my seat, yeah, he says I'm Bob.

This is my friend Larry.

Was Bob shorter and more rotund and Larry.

They didn't they didn't fit the the caricature but.

They should have that would have been great. Yeah.

Look if you're curious Google YouTube silly songs with Larry that'll let you know all you need to know.

Just left it at that. It was amazing. It was amazing. Thank You Troy for.

Filling in tonight. We appreciate you being with us. Thank you guys for for having me. Yeah. Yeah, so yeah.

Jumping in. Yeah last minute, huh?

Yes, sir, it's the way we like to do it I think.

The Covenant of Grace and Christ as the Substance of All Scripture

So we're on actually. Actually part part 3 the substance of the covenant of grace. Chapter 8 begins that. That new section the unity of the covenant of grace in Christ. The passage comes from Psalm 48 14.

This is God our God forever and ever. He will guide us.

Forever.

Dan I wanted to start out with these two slash two statements last questions and then you can take it over from there. So the the first one is as I was reading through this chapter. It really reminded me of What I've typically heard in church my whole life that all of Scripture is about Christ and Basically what he's teaching here is that all the covenants the substance is is Christ and so I found some continuity there between what I what I had been taught for years and what he was teaching in this passage and Then and you can comment on that and the other thing that I saw was I've got to turn my volume down.

Um, the other thing that I saw was.

Huh, so Tyler got you too was that.

Yep.

So the covenant of redemption. Like I was saying what Harrison Perkins is teaching us here in this chapter. Is that Christ is the substance of all the covenants.

So.

What makes the covenant of grace unique and different than the covenant of redemption If if Christ is the substance of all the covenants. That's kind of the question that was rolling around in my mind.

So that so that my first question statement was Is is what he's saying here in this chapter similar to what I had been hearing. You know all my life in church that that Jesus is is. We should read Jesus we should see Jesus in all of scripture and then hear what he's saying is that Jesus is the substance of all the covenants and then secondly What makes the covenant of grace unique and different if Christ is the substance of the covenant of redemption?

Don't it works and all those so.

What do you think? All right, so I told you I was tired. She gave me stuff to remember. Is that was that how you did? Well, anyway number one. You should absolutely have heard that kind of stuff in church.

The book of Luke I think. Yeah towards the end of the book of Luke on the road to Emmaus. They meet up with Jesus. The two guys they don't remember. They don't recognize them. Some divine thing where they didn't recognize them.

They're talking along the way. No, I asked him some questions, you know, what's been going on down there though. You haven't heard.

Went.

Started with with Moses and the prophets explained to them how the scriptures were about Christ. Right there the Bible tells us that they're about Christ. Now one thing that you said. I don't think you meant it this way, but I like how the wording came out because it gave me a chance to address it.

Um.

We we don't need to read Christ into the old testament. Because that can be dangerous anytime you you isogene or read into a passage something that is not necessarily There if you can come away with wonky stuff, but what I think What you should be able to do is as you read through the old testament.

Each section that you come to will show some part of the the plan or working of God in salvation. Which comes to us through Jesus Christ. So you see the promise of salvation in genesis 3. You see it again in genesis 12 15 17.

You see it again. And what was that chapter? 28 Of 50 of genesis and you just see it all over throughout. Where God is faithful to his people. God's taking care of his people. And you even see types and shadows so you don't.

Christ isn't necessarily In the sacrifices of exes, but they point to him. Right. So when you see the sacrifices for sins in the old testament, they point ahead to christ and his ultimate sacrifice. So we should always be seeing christ in in the scriptures because all of them Serve to point to him and his actions and his why he should be glorified in in the world.

By his creatures all of it points to his glory. Um, so that was that was question one. So good on whoever was preaching to you when you're growing up Praise the lord and now question two was what because I almost heard three questions and I don't.

I don't know what you said.

So what I understand from this chapter. What I was getting from this chapter is of course. Just what we had just talked about in the the first question. Jesus is the substance of all the covenants.

Um.

But yet there's three covenants covenant works covenant redemption um and covenant of grace, so What makes covenant of grace unique? Distinct unique from the other covenants if if jesus is just the substance of The whole hidden taboo everything.

Right, uh, the covenant of redemption is an inner trinitarian covenant. So it's between the members of the the trinity father son and spirit that they would Accomplish salvation in the world and apply it to mankind.

So we saw that through the father Uh decreeing salvation the son Accomplishing salvation and the spirit applying salvation to to mankind. The covenant of grace is different. In that it's it's a covenant made between god and mankind.

So, how do we? Whereas before mankind was going to relate to god on on the basis of law and obedience. We broke that. We have severed our relationship with god on the basis of our own obedience. So now we have to have relationship with god on the basis of grace.

On you know, god is gracious to us and allowing us to have relationship with him on the basis of his son's righteousness, which you.

You know.

Secured for us through his active obedience his passive obedience through going to the cross dying for our sins. Raising again seating sitting at the right hand of the father, uh, the spirit applying that work to our lives.

Um to where we will believe and trust in christ. That is.

Um.

The grace that that we have in in in god so that Covenant was made between god and man while it was the covenant of redemption was the plan before All eternity. Covenant of grace is it's outworking in.

Uh.

Time in history. Did you freeze? No.

There you go.

Sorry, I was telling tyler to back off.

That wasn't that wasn't tyler that was one of my other elders from church and he was. He was asking me a question so.

I was uh, talk to your elders. That's important. I was. I was peeking at his question. Yeah, the elders are there to watch over you and care for your soul. So.

Amen. Anything you want to add.

I I think dan hit it right on the spot. Um, The the covenant of redemption is in between the trinity. In eternity past it's it's god's outworking plan throughout all of history all of eternity. Uh, the covenant of grace is where we truly see it working from our perspective, right?

The fact that we can Read our bible in the new testament and see the new covenant, right? And that's what I would say is the is the covenant of grace. It's the new covenant. It is christ keeping the covenant of works on my behalf.

It's it's christ. Uh as as dan said his active and passive obedience.

Um.

It's the coming it's and it's by faith right that we have. This faith it's not according to the law. And the first question that you asked you know. In everything we should see we should see christ in the in in the bible in the old testament in the new testament.

And we kind of got into the shadows and types you know hebrews hebrews 10 tells us that. Uh, you know these things all the all the priestly Uh sacrifices all of the earthly tabernacle the sacrifices that were there were just shadows.

Of what christ would do in the new covenant? Bringing about finishing the covenant of grace sealing it on our behalf. Um, so yeah, I think. That that's our hope that's our hope. Christ. Christ fulfilled the covenant of works and it is applied to us.

We have that alien righteousness.

Amen.

And you know when we emphasize that christ is the substance of the covenants christ is the substance of The old testament the new testament and and everything. Um. You know, I know there's There's the temptation on our side to to neglect.

Um.

Like the holy spirit and then there's the other ditch to um over emphasize the holy spirit but to to grasp this concept of who who the substance Is of these these covenants of of all things and to to realize and understand that it is christ.

There there is a There is a direction In which the bible points us to and is it's god's son.

Um.

And so without falling into one ditch or the other. It is true that that's that's the direction that we should be walking in is pointing to christ. Um dan, do you you ready to to walk us through this chapter?

Yeah, man, let's do it. Uh, so The the name of the chapter for anybody who has the book Is uh the unity of the covenant of grace in christ. So he's he's showing the unity of that covenant throughout. Uh human history really is what he's getting at.

Um. He shows it as a unity because The the point the point being that There has only been one way of salvation for mankind throughout all of history.

Um.

Leads back to the covenant of works briefly and This is how we were to relate with god on the basis of obedience since we broke that. We don't have that as an option anymore because we've been disobedient.

So works has been broken, so if anyone was going to have um a a chance of being In relationship with god in a positive sense. Um, because we all have a relationship with god. I don't know if y 'all know that we all have a relationship with god whether it's it's one that is king or one is judge.

Um.

But as far as a positive relationship. Our salvation being cleansed of the sins that caused us to go. Break the covenant of works in the first place.

Um.

It was only by the grace of god and that has been from the beginning. So He started off. Um. There is a little quote from the first page. So the covenant of grace is god's one plan of salvation whereby he effectively redeemed all his elect by the work of christ.

So, how did how did god? Work out salvation. He worked out salvation for his people. Uh through the work of christ and that that in a nutshell is the whole chapter um now granted we're going to have a lot more to talk about but In the whole chapter in a nutshell, there's just been one plan of salvation.

And it's through christ in his work received by faith. We'll get into that here in a little bit and uh. Yeah, that's a that's a good place to start. What do y 'all what do y 'all think about that?

I I did want to ask you a question that that's somewhat related because christ christ is the substance and I think christ is the substance for Both sides of this question that I have in my mind but.

Um.

Harrison perkins talks about the elect christ christ rescuing dying for the the elect and that's. You know, that's that's a reform. It's a biblical term. But you hear it emphasized in reform circles and calvinistic circles.

So my question is Is there room in covenant theology because you most mostly relate? Covenant theology. Reform. Covenant theology with a calvinistic perspective on election and predestination. But is there any room?

For.

Um.

A non Calvinistic view of soteriology.

In.

In the covenant theology.

Yes.

There there is room for somebody who 100 okay. Hold on a second. I got a volume of books.

So somebody can believe in covenant theology and believe yeah, um. Free will. And god died for yeah.

Everybody. Okay, the works of james arminius. Okay. Um. Sorry, i'm scowling. I took my glasses off because of the glare and i was trying to see didn't mean to be scowling but um. Yeah, all all these are the the three volumes of his works.

Um Arminius was is Technically a reformed guy, right? Um, he of course got in big trouble at the senate of dort. What he he was gone by then. But you know what i'm saying his doctrine got in a lot of trouble at the senate of dort.

Where they said no, this is not good. This is um extra we're gonna put this to the side and that's how we got the uh, the tulip. Thing whatever. Yeah that word.

Um.

But he he started from a place of covenant theology, in fact the first in this first volume, um go through the first bunch of uh I got a stack of books over here. It's about to fall down. Do something else we don't want to lose you.

Oh. You might feel it on the richter scale. I mean this thing's like it's like that tall and fall down. Um, but yeah his first several chapters Um in this book are a recap of covenant theology. Um, this is what happened in the covenant of works.

Here's what happened with with god the covenant of grace and it it runs through and it's fairly.

Um.

Solid really. I'm looking at what what he's written down, but he he goes.

And.

Turns turns the corner when it comes to uh, You know, how how does that actually work out. Since we deal with god on the basis of grace.

Um.

How how does that work? How do we get faith? How do how does that. So the classical armenians? Started from a place where they agreed with total depravity. And then agreed that there was there was a level of grace that kind of moved that depravity to the side so that we would be able to um receive with by faith the the grace of god.

So they kind of you know cart before the horse type of type of thing. So yeah, they they they came to it from a place of covenant theology. So you don't necessarily have to be a calvinist in order to hold to covenant theology.

Um, in fact, you don't even have to be a uh pedobaptist to come. I mean, obviously they look a little different. There's some No stuff that gets a little. Yeah, some divergent opinions at places but. Yeah, there's there can be a variety of folks who hold to it.

Does anybody know the. Whether or not a roman catholic hermeneutic. I know it gets different because of the elevation of tradition. But would they hold to a type of covenant theology. Has anyone looked into that?

Have you looked into that dan?

Not as far as catholics go, okay I thought this although defining catholicism is Is weird.

Yeah, it is.

But by what what point in history are you going to call it the catholic church? Because. Or at least the roman at least the roman catholic church that we think of today. You go back a certain point and there's there's changes.

So yeah, I mean even in this chapter he shows folks who were.

You know.

Medieval period and a little bit before that who were saying things that sounded like covenant theology who would be considered I guess part of the catholic church, but.

Um.

It was. They did not hold to the dogmas of rome in the 1800s. Yeah.

Yeah, it was it was a different it was a different. Yeah, I think things were not the way that they are now then. Right, yeah, I said that right.

Why Dispensationalism Became Common in Modern American Christianity

Yep. I think this question might be in your wheelhouse toy. Um, I was Carrying on with that that thought. The the question that I asked dan. In modern history, it seems like most armenians lean more towards dispensationalism.

So.

Why do you think that is. And then a follow-up question would be? If armenians can hold to covenant theology, why is there such a tension? It seems between calvinist and armenians.

Well, so the reason I think that dispensationalism is so huge now actually putting it in a point in history. Uh, you know, the first study bible in the english language was technically the geneva in 1560.

Um.

And then you have of course the king james after it and slowly the king james kind of becomes the standard. No more study bibles. No study notes in the in the original editions of the king james until you get the The schofield study bible right.

And you know, all of us have seen one of those more than likely. And yep right back there. Well schofield whenever he's putting together his.

His.

Cross references and his study notes. He goes to a guy by the name of darby. Darby writes the commentary for him and it is dispensational. And what it does is. Since everybody can get their own study bible with commentary inside of it, you know.

You no longer need these big shelves in behind me and the big shelves in behind dan and big shelves that you have somewhere. Uh now you can have a bible with study notes in it. Um, and they were. They promoted a dispensationalist perspective.

And.

Then you get into clarence larkin, uh and where he kind of charts it all out. Um, it's something specific something to where most people felt, you know. This sounds really good. I understand this um, and it has It it's just kind of become the norm that everyone kind of starts out as anymore in america.

Now, it's kind of like a. A universal acceptance that if you talk to someone they may not know what a dispensationalist is. They may not know. You know you throw out the term dispensational pre-tribulational pre-millennial, you know.

They don't know that but they know. Jesus is coming back i'm going with him and then the great tribulation is going to happen.

Uh.

And so it it has just kind of become a default position for for most churches. Other than your, you know, presbyterian branches and Such.

Yeah, a lot of that took place. Um during a time when there's a lot of liberalism that was infiltrating the church as well.

So.

The the dispensationalists largely were the ones or.

Or.

One of the large proponents of of the uh, the fundamentalist movement. Now people will think of the fundamentalist movement and think of the extra fundamentalists, um. You know angry pulpit slapping folks, but really all I had Fundamentalism to start off with was holding the fundamentals of the faith, you know, the virgin birth um the deity of christ the inerrancy of scripture and so they were holding on to those things as people wanted to find a A solid church that held to the faith and wasn't jumping off the rails into liberalism.

What they found was These dispensational churches were were holding the line and so it grew in popularity that way as well.

Yeah.

But and to my other question I was thinking. It's not necessarily I don't think it's necessarily covenant theology. And dispensationalism. Dispensationalism is where the the hang-up comes from. I think it comes from the uh the election predestination.

Yes, that's where the hang-up is.

Yeah, that that's that's where it's. It's solely on calvinism not necessarily on covenant theology because if you start if you start talking to someone that's that is dispensational and. You know, yes, you're gonna have.

Differences. You're gonna have quite a few differences. Uh, but whenever it comes to the covenant of grace. You know, and we are looking at this as you know, christ is the savior as as dan read. Uh, not long ago right.

The substance. There's only one way people have come to faith and that is or come to be saved and that's through faith in christ. Whether our old testament brothers or our new testament brothers.

Um.

90 percent of. You know believing professing christians would go. Yes. Amen. We're all together on that point. It's flushing out the the details. Yeah.

All right. I don't want to distract anybody from listening to you dan. So I want I want to do this for troy. Now it's this thing is sensitive. I don't know if I can.

Oh, that is one fancy camera, oh my goodness.

Ceiling fan.

Okay, it's going. There we go. Come on back. Come on back.

There was my shelf. I saw the bookshelf.

I saw your smoke detector up there, too.

There we go.

If I touch my phone stand it might fall and break. I I it's just better to leave it there.

There we go. All right, so.

Uh.

The how we're like 30 minutes in let's get started.

So he.

He kind of he goes the way he goes about laying out this chapter. He he since it's called reformed covenant theology. He lays out the reformed position using the reformed documents. Then he goes back and tries to prove it with scripture.

And then he goes from scripture and shows that this is something that's been taught throughout history. Right, so. To start where he started the westminster, uh larger catechism number 32. The answer says this.

The grace of god is manifested in the second covenant. In that he freely provides and offers to sinners. That's covenant of grace uh to sinners a mediator. And life and salvation by him and requiring faith as a condition to interest them in him.

Uh promises and gives his holy spirit to all his elect. To work in them that faith with all other saving graces and to enable them unto all holy obedience. As the evidence of the truth of their faith and thankfulness to god.

And as the way which he hath appointed them to salvation.

So.

What that says in a nutshell is that the covenant of grace is there? To show christ is the mediator for our sins to bring us into salvation to give us the grace. We need to be able to obey him and to live lives that are are Pleasing and honoring and glorifying to him.

So how does that happen? It happens through christ and so that's what the covenant of grace is all about that we.

Who.

Are sinners and separated from god but through the righteousness of christ We brought into fellowship with god and changed from our sinful ways into Uh redeemed individuals and ultimately his his church gathered together which I think is.

Beautiful.

Amen, that's great. Yeah.

It's good stuff. So He goes from there.

Actually.

There's so much here. But he brings up a distinction of law and gospel or works and promise. Or works in in in grace, I would say and that is the. That's the line that he he kind of defines with the covenant of works being law.

And.

Uh.

Or the covenant works being works and the covenant of grace being gospel or promise or Grace as we said. So along those lines he He breaks it down in uh, who's it? Uh page 190. He brings up something.

Listen to this it says the covenant of grace offers salvation as the only alternative to the covenant of works. Meaning that this saving plan spans all human history and is the method of rescuing each of god's elect.

So how is somebody going to be saved? The covenant of grace. Now he brings up a good good point that The word covenant in greek and hebrew can be translated as covenant or testament. Now testament is also a you know, it's like a uh, here's a written down testimony of what god is doing.

So while covenant has the idea of a contract between folks Um, you could also take the idea of testament where this is something that has been spoken To us as this is this is what god has promised to mankind.

That that.

Through god's grace alone. You will be brought into.

Um.

Into a saving relationship with him by faith.

And and that's why we can have confidence in scripture. You know, we we talk about the new old testament and new testament. And in essence the word testament you're talking about me means covenant. Sure.

This is god god's word god's covenant to us and so therefore God can't break a covenant. God can't break a promise. So therefore his word his testaments to us are by default going to be Faithful, they're going to be right.

They can't fail. They can they're trustworthy. We we can depend on his word because they're his covenant to us his testament to us and that's. That's such a powerful a powerful place to lean into um as as many.

As many trials as many troubles as we have in this life, um, even as a believer because because of the world that we still live in to know that we have a Testament a word from god that cannot fail because it's his covenant his promise to us.

There there is a place that we can go to in this world where we can have sure footing. That makes sense.

Absolutely.

So.

I don't know. I hope I did justice on what. The the basics of the doctrine was from a reform perspective because I really wanted to get to this part and spend most of our time here because.

Um.

I mean the bible's fantastic. So I wanted to look at romans four with you guys for for a good a good portion of of time. Because it it really talks about every I mean, I saw him sprinkle it throughout the the whole chapter.

So we can touch on just about everything that we need to from from here.

Um.

We'll just start reading through it we'll talk about the verses how they relate to to grace faith you know works how they Work with old testament folks new testament folks and all all that. Yes so romans 4 1 what then shall we say?

That abraham our forefather according to the flesh is found. You know, what did what did abraham find? Uh for if abraham was justified by works He has something to boast about. So what he's saying is if abraham had been in the sight of god made right and justified you are okay with me.

Based on what abraham had done That he could brag. But it says but not before god uh verse three for what does scripture say. That abraham believed god and it was counted to him as righteousness. So what what's it bringing up in the first three verses is that abraham even in the old testament Even when he was said he was told hey get up and leave this place go over here circumcise yourself and your sons.

Um do this do that. It wasn't him. Doing those things necessarily that saved him. Although that was not working of. What did save him it was faith. It was trusting in the promises of god when god said hey you come out of here I'm gonna be your god and you're gonna be my people.

He said okay. He believed in him. He trusted in him by faith. And it was that trusting in god by faith that caused him to be righteous in the sight of god it was. Now obviously that led to obedience. Because you don't really trust somebody if you won't, you know do what they say.

You know, my wife tells me to.

You know.

Eat this bacon, I swear it won't kill you. I'm like, okay i'll trust you. I have faith in my wife not to Dietarily ruin me. And uh, you know, she makes me bacon all the time. So I think it's a pretty good deal.