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Loving God who grants us so many good things including the opportunity to gather on Sundays to have fellowship to worship You to remind ourselves of the blessings that we have in Christ Jesus. Lord, would you strengthen us as we look to?
These truths about About you About the nature of the Trinity about how you Have presented Yourself in scripture and how you have taught men and women throughout the centuries to come to know you in a in a better and More right way father help us today in Jesus name.
Amen. So we've been talking about the Trinity and Going through this book called simply Trinity and doing this quiz and. And we are in chapter 1 and we're nearing the end of chapter 1. This quiz which I'm excited about because we're all set to go with chapter 2 2 so alright.
We ended last week With question 23. Does anybody need a quiz? Because I should have some extra quizzes if you don't have one. Yes. See that a hand. Well, I probably have some more. Let me see. I do and then I also have handouts.
From last week with the vocabulary. Okay Number 23, which of these is the better approach. Only the Bible has any value tradition contributes little. B tradition Helps us interpret the Bible properly.
But scripture is the final authority or see scripture is infallible and so is tradition and as we said last week I don't know why they never done scripture or tradition 0 1 and 2 instead of 1 2 and 3.
But that's what they did and we said that Tradition 2 is Roman Catholic. That's where tradition and scripture are both infallible. Tradition 1 is us which is Tradition helps us interpret the Bible properly, but scripture is the final authority and then scripture 0 Is pretty radical only the Bible has any value tradition contributes little and before we go on to 24 can anyone remember can anybody summon a reason why the idea that Tradition contributes little is kind of a a risky place to go.
Proposition, what's that? You're gonna repeat mistakes that have been made throughout church history, right? We're not you know if Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it those who don't learn from heresy are doomed to repeat it.
Even if we look at Ephesians 4 how Christ has gifted the church we can look at With men throughout throughout the years the centuries to teach and to preach to ignore that would be Risky would be even be arrogant and so tradition does contribute.
It just has to Help us and not inform us doesn't it can't ever trump the Bible. Thoughts or questions before we move on. Okay, seeing none Number 24 true or false Paul consistently condemned tradition the hint was given in 23, right?
Did Paul condemn tradition. The answer is false. Here are a few verses to chew on first Corinthians 11 23. We're going to hear this this morning for I received from the Lord what I also delivered you.
That the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread. What is he saying? If we just put this kind of in What is that? Let me think about it the second Timothy 2 2 but if we just think about it in this in this sense.
That what what Paul heard from somebody else? Namely from Jesus he handed on to others. What is that? That's a tradition tradition. Let's listen to second Timothy Chapter 2. I'll read verses 1 and 2 you then my child be strengthened by the grace that is in Christ Jesus and What you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses and trust of faithful men.
Who will be able to teach others also and I've mentioned this verse before what it is the idea. We take the truths from people who went before us and then we hand them on to the next generation. We pass the baton as it were that's tradition.
The difficulty is when if we take some tradition and we elevate it above scripture that would be incorrect. Scripture always has to be the final authority the ultimate authority. 1st Corinthians 15 1 through 3.
1st Corinthians 15 verses 1 through 3. Now I would remind you and we know this passage. Well, because we use it a lot. 1st Corinthians 15 1 2 3. Now I would remind you brothers of the gospel. I preached to you.
Which you received. In which you stand and by which you are being saved if you hold fast the word I preached to you. Unless you believed in vain. And then verse 3 for I delivered to you as a first importance.
What what did he deliver to them? What I also received. That christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures. He gives them what he received. This is what we do. We give what we receive. 2nd Thessalonians 2 15.
So then brothers again paul writing so then brothers stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us. Either by our spoken word or by our letter. In other words tradition itself is not the problem.
The problem is when can you think of some traditions that are um. Whether they're in our tradition or not some traditions that are unbiblical. Charlie altar calls, okay I mean, where's the biblical precedents for that?
There there isn't one in fact, uh altar calls were invented by a wolf, but um. Yeah. So altar calls would be one. What's another one? Okay stations of the cross praying the rosary those are traditions.
Are they biblical and the answer is no. Other thoughts. Yes, charlie. Yes, except he also says Yeah, I I mean in other words and and he also says he doesn't always write down everything that he receives from jesus sometimes he's just taking it and Passing it along to them.
So in that sense, even though it is from the living word, it would still be Tradition if it's not in scripture, I hate that thing. Okay number 25 uh. True or false the nicene creed is a good guardrail, but it is certainly not the measure of orthodoxy.
The nicene creed posted in the men's room. I'm, just like that it gives it a little bit more of a uh, of a sense of authority, but I read this in the bathroom. So i'm sure it's true. Okay, one more time true or false nicene creed is a good guardrail, but it is certainly not the measure of orthodoxy.
How many say true? How many say false? Wrong. Barrett says. And when heresy threatened the trinitarian heart of this gospel summary talking about the nicene creed this rule of faith. The unit the church universal met and wrote another creed.
Oh, he's talking about the apostles creed. When when heresy threatened the the apostles creed. The church got together wrote another creed the nicene creed. The creed was faithful to scripture and for that reason.
Was authoritative for christians everywhere and always. To depart from the nicene creed was to depart from biblical teaching itself. To abandon the nicene creed was to abandon the god of the gospel himself.
And we're going to develop that over the weeks and months, uh that follow. I thought about going, you know Departing into the nicene creed, but we're going to be in this long enough to I think to mine all that um.
If you read the nicene creed, you won't disagree with it in all likelihood. Because it is it is orthodoxy and and what we're going to see even This morning as we as we continue. When people depart from the nicene creed, what do they do?
They wander into Heresy. Okay, number 26 True or false some words are needed and by the way. The other handout that I gave to everybody just as an aside has a list of terms that are taken from the back of the book here.
And and I recommend again the book it's there's a glossary in the back. And what we did was we just took that and reformatted it a bit and printed it out. So, you know if we say some word and you're like, I have no idea what that is.
It's probably in that glossary and if it's not in that glossary glossary raise your hand and we'll talk about it. True or false some words are needed to protect the church from heresy some words emphasis on terms.
I think it's true. I mean I wrote it and answered it true and you know, it has the little yellow mark here, which we learned yesterday morning Is infallible when it's got the indelible yellow mark. It's it's true.
Some words are needed to protect the church from heresy barrett says we need a To hear a voice no longer heard today. That is the voice of our church fathers. We will go back in time to the fourth century to understand why our fathers Chose certain words and phrases to protect the trinity Of the bible from heresy.
We will also discover that they left us a trinitarian grammar. A language to be exact. That teaches us how to distinguish between father son and holy spirit as scripture does. But without compromising the oneness or simplicity of our triune god.
So words are important words matter and we're going to see that again and again and again, for example if I say If I say to you, you know, what is modalism. And you say well, I don't really know but if you watch that video this week, then you probably know but If I say That the trinity is The one god appearing in different ways.
Then what am I doing? The one god appearing in different ways. Is that correct? That's modalism patrick. That's exactly right. I'd say that's modalism kirstie except for you know, lutherans always say patrick.
It's kind of odd, but anyway. That's modalism patrick. Yeah words matter when we're talking about the trinity. Number 27 true or false every theologian the Every theologian the roman catholic church claims as their own is wrong on the trinity.
That's false um. In fact he says Barrett says in the next chapter we will meet these fathers. Who make up this great tradition this theological dream team and despite bad press they are a team. For in their own ways they each retrieve that biblical teaching of the nicene creed we'll watch the dream team pass the ball.
Or hand the baton off right noticing how they work as one the whole team assuming the same nicene rules of the game. And each team member having the nicene fundamentals down to ensure that we remain faithful to the scriptures now.
The roman catholic church wants to claim all of them as their own. What else does the roman catholic church do. That's not true. It claims peter as its own. I mean it claims a lot of people as its own.
And we're going to see uh, even barrett says That the roman catholic church as such did not come about. Probably until around uh, and I forget the exact date but somewhere around 600 ad. They want you to believe that, you know, basically as soon as jesus left the roman catholic church started.
Of course it then started in jerusalem and migrated to rome but uh for you know whatever reason. But any thoughts or questions before we move on in chapter two? Objections, okay seeing none chapter two number one and we already covered this so this is kind of Review but it's a good review.
True or false extra biblical words should not be used to describe the trinity. False false false false false false false nine nine nine false false false. Barrett says heretics use the bible to subordinate the son.
Right. Just citing the bible doesn't always. Make your case because you can take a verse out of context here or there. And he says the church fathers used extra biblical language. That is to say words outside the bible to protect the trinity of the bible.
For example each person is a subsistence of the same simple essence. Those ideas are not you know that those words are not the bible those ideas are there. Um, and we're going to develop that more. Now number two.
Yes. No, i'm keeping it secret under lock and key. Or I have 50 copies sitting right here. I've heard i've heard it both ways. Okay, so number one for those of you who didn't see it. Which would be all of you extra biblical words should not be used to describe the trinity that is.
That is false. Number two. True or false arianism is orthodox christianity. And right about now you should be like is arianism what in the world is that. Well it should be. I think is it in Your let's see.
No. Well, it should be arianism. Man, that is a bummer. That's arianism patrick. Okay, who wants to describe what arianism is? Seeing no volunteers. No volunteers, come on people. Okay, go ahead. Okay, good arias.
First of all heretic. Secondly, he said at some point the sun had to not exist. Because that's the nature he thought of a sun therefore um the sun was created. And we're going to talk more about arianism because arias.
Although he winds up being, you know a heretic of the worst order. As as with many heretics his his intent wasn't always bad. And why do I say that about heretics? Well, it's like with palagians. As as another example palagians Were didn't like or didn't like uh original sin.
And why didn't they like it? Because they wanted Man to have free will. No they wanted to protect god against the accusation that he's not fair. So if everybody has a free will palagius said then everybody has an equal chance and god is now fair.
As plagius decided fair was well with arias again. He's trying to protect protect god against Accusations that he doesn't think are quite right. And so he creates this whole system. And to do that. And we're we're going to see more of that.
But arianism is orthodox christianity is false. Arianism is actually uh popular today, it's jehovah witnesses Mormons. I'm sure there are other cults that do the same thing. Number three. True or false the father became a father when he begot the son.
That is false. That is false. Barrett says alexander taught like many before him that the biblical names father son and spirit are not random meaningless inventions. Rather these names reveal who this trinity is.
The son for example is the son. Because he is from the father but listen from all eternity. Begotten by the father before all ages. So he's the eternal son of god. That is what scriptures mean whenever it calls christ the son and so then the father is eternally the father.
He never became a father. So the idea that he You know at one point Wasn't a father is wrong. And here's what he says about arias. Arius was deeply disturbed by such a teaching it violated the central tenet of monotheism producing in his mind producing not one but Two gods.
How can you say the father's god and the son is god? And he saw it as Becoming, you know, two two separate gods. You know what. Yes jonathan, okay. Well, I I want to kind of summarize so help me out in summarizing what you said in the time before time.
Okay, the the the father was the father was alone. Okay. Okay. Before creation. Well, what? Did time exist before creation and see? And and and and the answer is no right and and so there's the problem because our poor little human mind say Wait.
Well before there was any time, how could we measure what time was? Yeah. Yeah, simplify it for me. So Would we say at any point that there was the father and not the son? I see that hand. It's three quarters of the way up.
It's closing the fist. Okay now it's all the way up. They're all trick questions. The father became a father when he began but see I didn't really. There there is no was Right and and and see and and I think I think it it helps me because I am a simple man.
It helps me to just think of time not as the way we do. But as a location. Because if god sees time from beginning to end which he does Right then for god Time is not time. Does that make sense? I mean if I roll out a map do I think?
Oh, that's a lovely adventure there or do I just think that's a map right? And so I I think in a kind of an. You know by way of analogy If god just rolls out time, he doesn't think oh, that's a long period of time.
He just thinks That's time. It's a place. It's a it's a thing. It's not what we experience. Um, so so literally i'll get to you in a second. So literally when we say jesus entered Into his creation he entered into all of it including time.
He wasn't in time and then thought okay now i'm also going to go to earth. He's outside of time. He's god and he enters into the space-time continuum. To use the star trek term. Hi, lisa. Feel free. Okay.
Yeah, I mean I I Sure, but by you know, the father became a father when he begot the son in human form. Well, the answer to that would be false but it you know. And I guess to andrew's point. You know the tricky part of the question is the word when.
Right because there was no win. He's not created of god. Okay, and again, we're you know, some sometimes the words matter but he is eternally Generated right. Yeah, he proceeds. You don't know what that means.
Okay um. All right. So let's go let's go to number four and we'll see. I I think lisa's right. I think this will help a little bit. True or false the son is caused and has a beginning false. For god to be god barrett says he must be unbegotten.
Unbegotten. He alone is the and he's talking about the father here, but he says Uh, this was arias's view, right? He says he alone. The father is the anarchos god that the not anarchist but the. That the crowned one that you know the one in charge the one without cause and beginning.
But the son is the archaic caused and brought into existence having a beginning. That's what arias believed. But arias was wrong. He's a heretic. He started his own theological school the school of heresy.
Can you imagine that? Here men here at uh, heresy uh seminary. Yeah, heresy you go. Right, there never was a time when the son did not exist. There was never I mean, I mean and again, you know. The the word time is problematic no matter what but there was.
You know the idea of there being a coming together you know of of the things that create god are wrong because then god could be divisible. And then there would be something greater than god um, so wrong.
Uh, yeah. We're not to the ascension part yet. I've got A joke i'm kidding. It's only a joke. No, it's only a joke. When he ascended. Was he still 100 god 100 man. Okay, I asked the class. Was he 100 man 100 god before the incarnation?
No yes he was Chosen before the foundation of the world to be the the savior, but he he wasn't a man until he was incarnated. John you were saying yes. Yes, he is still 100 Man 100 god. I mean, I I I read some people who and it makes it sound like he's no longer 100 god and i'm like.
Oh, no, he still is. It's okay. Um good question though. Yes still 100 and eternally 100. You know truly god and truly man from now on. Other questions, yes. Mm-hmm again, this is something we will we will Repeat over and over and over again in a number of different ways and it's good to have our Westminster, uh portion here today, but That's a good question is jesus in fact, why isn't that on the quiz?
Is he eternally begotten or is he begotten in the incarnation? And the answer would be what? He's eternally begotten we we. You know it does he uh, you know, he's manifested in the flesh, but he's eternally begotten which means We could say You know some of the terminology that you use eternally Generated, you know, I mean eternally proceeding from the father, you know, I mean these kind of things.
Well, what does that mean? Means there was never a time when he didn't exist. I mean And you know again we the the problem with discussing time is it's kind of immaterial it'd be like, uh, I I can't even come up with an analogy.
But but the idea again if you just think of time as maybe as a place the idea then that God would be concerned with time before time exists is a little bit Odd it it it just is It it's not even a question for god.
It's because he's eternal he's outside of time um. But yes, is it difficult to understand? How jesus is eternally? You know, he's eternally begotten of the father. Is that difficult to understand? Yes.
Are you looking for a different word? I don't like it. Yeah, charlie. Okay. Okay arias. Okay, now I I can agree with what you said at the at the end there I mean the earlier part I felt like there's a warren's evon that says, you know Put me through some changes lord kind of like a wearing blender and that's what I I felt like I was in the wearing blender bird.
He's eternally begotten and then begotten in the flesh I think both of those are are true, right um but I I think. And the earlier part, you know, I think I think there could be some heretics or some Unbelievers who maybe I mean, what did they say?
They said he's a he's He does these things by the power of satan, you know the power of be as above he's got a demon um. So yeah, I I could see where that you know, that idea could kind of come along um, because the idea of Of Although you know what to be fair the idea of a god acting like A human being isn't that?
Remote um. You know if we if you read mythology Roman or greek mythology their so-called gods Did things that were Very human. But the idea of the eternal god Entering into the time-space continuum being made In the form of man, you know or or entering into the form of a of a man taking on that That additional nature.
That was definitely new and uh. Had you know, obviously never before and never since. Okay, so back to janice question. Did we answer janice question? Did we answer your question? Bob, what does begotten mean?
I mean and that's and that's good. So If we just look at it this way when we say eternally begotten, we may not like that language. But it's identifying language. It helps us to understand the difference between the father who's Unbegotten right has no has no source whatsoever the son who is eternally begotten and then the spirit who is Spirated which is to say that he's sent by the father and the son.
But they're all three fully god. They're all three Individual persons of the one god and you say well, how does that work exactly? This is why we have the language that we have right it's it's these are difficult issues to wrestle with.
Yes. Yeah, and and I think that's right right it why why is this so hard for us to comprehend because. Exactly what bob was saying. It is the finite. Trying to comprehend the infinite, you know our limited, you know dinosaur brains.
Trying to comprehend the one who not only spoke and created the universe but upholds it and yet Never loses any energy while he's doing all that and you know, how is this possible? What about conservation all these things that we you know that we know for fact.
And we go well god doesn't really isn't bound by what we know. Jonathan well, yes, and we'll never fully grasp it. And so, you know, some people would say well if we can't fully grasp it. Why study it at all?
And the the there are several reasons for that one is I mean, can you think of any reasons why to study the trinity? Okay worship is one Wonder. Okay, I want to worship a god who's more complex than I am right and he is the name Excellent.
To protect us from heresy because every heretical view does what it veers off from orthodox trinitarianism. So, I mean these things are extremely valuable for us. I mean if you just want to understand god better.
You study the trinity. Now you won't master it. Is that a problem? Well only if you're like I was really hoping I could get a god that i'm just kind of bored with you know that i'm done with that i've mastered.
Yeah, I mean is it is the trinity important? Well, only if it's important like charlie said that it's actually and truly god on the cross. And is that important and the answer is yes. Well, why and you have to go through all these Issues to sort of understand and wrestle with it.
Okay. Yes, yes. Oh, yeah, but it's fun to say 200 truly and truly truly god and truly man. Yes. Okay. Okay, number five last one true or false. Because jesus died on the cross. There is something different about his deity.
Because jesus died on the cross. There is something different about his deity it's false and i'm just gonna you know, take about a 30 point knockoff on on my question there because that's really an awful question um.
Yeah. Because jesus died on the cross there's something different about his deity. I know what I was shooting for but here's what Barrett says he says arias was convinced. That alexander another church father that we're going to be discussing had violated the creator creature distinction.
The one monarch god is infinite eternal immutable impassable and therefore Incomprehensible to created beings who are finite temporal mutable impassable. By claiming that the son who became incarnate is also god one with the father alexander had introduced changed into the very nature of god and not just any change, but the worst kind of The worst kind passability because he died.
Is ultimately the conclusion that arias came to Jesus was different because He died. The problem of course for arias is that who died on the cross? Well the man christ jesus or god god. Yes. Yes is the correct answer.
But I I mean in in his in his deity. Did he cease to exist? And and and that's the and that's the key. And that's what arias, you know, I I mean again, you know these men arias was was no slouch when it came to intellect but sometimes being super intellectual is a Detriment, you know, you can you can walk right into heresy as you're as you're thinking about these things.
Um. And we could do one more sure sure number six. True or false adoptionism means that jesus became the son at his incarnation. It's true. Adoptionism is false, but the question is true. Adoptionism means that jesus became the son at his incarnation that part is true.
But listen arias barrett says arias was no adoptionist and then he then he defines it. As if the man christ jesus was declared to be god's son at the start of his incarnation. And you know the one of the reasons why I want to put that down if you start.
And by the way. If you if you want to talk about a dopey thing to debate about on the internet trinity. It's a it's a bad thing to because you it'll take you about 30 seconds to wind up. Interacting with a heretic.
I I I had somebody, you know, yes, I am that dumb um. Who's who said to me? Well, you know jesus became Uh the son or the son became the son at his incarnation i'm just like. Okay, I need to unfollow this conversation.
I'm out of here because I don't want to I don't want to take the time to explain to you how wrong that is um. You know, it wasn't on my wall. So I just faded away but the answer to number six. It's just like it was just my sneaky way of getting adoptionism in here because I don't think it's in here.
It's one of the it's one of the many heresies. That he doesn't list. I think he he mostly sticks to the good stuff in here, which is helpful. You know if it's not on this list, you could probably go. Well, it's probably heresy if it's not on here um.
So thoughts or questions before we close? Okay. Adoptionism is it different than the idea that maybe jesus was just a man until he was baptized. I'm, not really familiar with that, but it would be the same kind of heresy, right?
I mean pick a point on a map on on the You know continuum there and say he wasn't really a man or he wasn't really the son or he wasn't really god. You know, I mean mormons say that there was a point Uh where he became god.
I I found it interesting when I of course I found it interesting. Uh when. When I was doing my thing on uh mormons several weeks ago in the evening and the mormons actually believe that jesus was kind of promoted to.
What's the word god a temporary god like, you know god pro tem. Before his before his incarnation. But it was like a test to see whether he would live up to what he was being given. And then you know, he was affirmed as god which you know again.
This is what when you when you wander into the waters of heresy. You're gonna drown so Number Six was true adoptionism and I don't care what point you pick whether it was at his incarnation when he was baptized.
On the cross if there's any point where you just say well, it's here that he became the son. Wrong, you know, he's eternally the son. Okay, let's pray father. Thank you for Uh your word, thank you for these men throughout the centuries who faithfully taught and defended these doctrines who Fought against heresy.
Who even would condemn it and risk their lives? To condemn heresy. Would you give us A spirit that wants to know you better that wants to know more about the father the son the spirit wants to understand scripture better wants to be able to defend the truth better and wants to have as it were our Trinitarian radar on so we when we hear things that are wrong.
Even if it's as simple as 100 god 100 man rather than truly god and truly man or whether it's Adoptionism or whatever the heresy is father help us to just be ready To to hear that to reject it and to come back with the truth we pray for these things in jesus name.
Amen.