Simply Trinity Study (part 3)

Loving God who grants us so many good things including the opportunity to gather on Sundays to have fellowship to worship

You to remind ourselves of the blessings that we have in Christ Jesus Lord, would you strengthen us as we look to?

these truths about About you About the nature of the

Trinity about how you Have presented Yourself in scripture and how you have taught men and women throughout the centuries to come to know you in a in a better and More right way father help us today in Jesus name.

Amen so we've been talking about the Trinity and Going through this book called simply

Trinity and doing this quiz and And we are in chapter 1 and we're nearing the end of chapter 1

This quiz which I'm excited about because we're all set to go with chapter 2 2 so alright

We ended last week With question 23

Does anybody need a quiz? Because I should have some extra quizzes if you don't have one

Yes See that a hand well,

I probably have some more See I do and then

I also have handouts From last week with the vocabulary Okay Number 23 which of these is the better approach only the

Bible has any value tradition contributes little be tradition Helps us interpret the

Bible properly But scripture is the final authority or see scripture is infallible and so is tradition and as we said last week

I don't know why they numbered them scripture or tradition 0 1 and 2 instead of 1 2 and 3

But that's what they did and we said that Tradition 2 is Roman Catholic. That's where tradition and scripture are both infallible tradition 1 is us which is

Tradition helps us interpret the Bible properly, but scripture is the final authority and then scripture 0

Is pretty radical only the Bible has any value tradition contributes little and before we go on to 24 can anyone remember can anybody summon a reason why the idea that Tradition contributes little is kind of a

Risky proposition, what's that?

You're gonna repeat mistakes that have been made throughout church history, right? We're not you know if Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it those who don't learn from heresy are doomed to repeat it

Even if we look at Ephesians 4 how Christ has gifted the church we could look at With men throughout throughout the years the centuries to teach and to preach to ignore that would be

Risky would be even be arrogant and so tradition does contribute.

It just has to Help us and not inform us doesn't it can't ever trump the Bible Thoughts or questions before we move on okay?

seeing none Number 24 true or false Paul consistently condemned tradition the hint was given in 23, right?

Did Paul condemn tradition the answer is false

Here are a few verses to chew on first Corinthians 11 23 We're going to hear this this morning for I received from the

Lord what I also delivered to you That the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread

What is he saying if we just put this kind of in What is that?

Let me think about it the second Timothy 2 2 but if we just think about it in this in this sense That what what

Paul heard from somebody else? Namely from Jesus he handed on to others.

What is that? It's a tradition tradition

Let's listen to second

Timothy Chapter 2 I'll read verses 1 and 2 you then my child be strengthened by the grace that is in Christ Jesus and What you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses and trust of faithful men

Who will be able to teach others also, and I've mentioned this verse before what it is the idea?

We take the truths from people who went before us, and then we hand them on to the next generation We pass the baton as it were that's tradition

The difficulty is when if we take some tradition, and we elevate it above Scripture that would be incorrect

Scripture always has to be the final authority the ultimate authority first Corinthians 15 1 through 3 first Corinthians 15 verses 1 through 3

Now I would remind you and we know this passage well because we use it a lot first Corinthians 15 1 2 3 now

I would remind you brothers of the gospel I preached to you which you received In which you stand and by which you are being saved if you hold fast the word

I preached to you Unless you believed in vain Then verse 3 for I delivered to you as a first importance what what did he deliver to them?

What I also received That Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures

He gives them what he received. This is what we do we give what we receive 2nd

Thessalonians 2 15 So then brothers again Paul writing so then brothers stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us

Either by our spoken word or by our letter In other words tradition itself is not the problem

The problem is when Trinity can you think of some? Traditions that are

Whether they're in our tradition or not some traditions that are unbiblical Charlie altar calls, okay,

I Mean, where's the biblical precedence for that there? There isn't one in fact altar calls were invented by a wolf, but Yeah, so altar calls would be one what's another one

Okay stations of the cross praying the rosary those are traditions are they biblical and the answer is no other thoughts yes,

Charlie Yes, except he also says Yeah, I mean in other words he and and he also says he doesn't always write down everything that he receives from Jesus sometimes he's just taking it and Passing it along to them.

So in that sense, even though it is from the Living Word. It would still be Tradition if it's not in Scripture, okay number 25

True or false the Nicene Creed is a good guardrail, but it is certainly not the measure of orthodoxy the

Nicene Creed posted in the men's room It gives it a little bit more of a

Of a sense of authority, but I read this in the bathroom.

So I'm sure it's true Okay, one more time true or false Nicene Creed is a good guardrail, but it is certainly not the measure of orthodoxy

How many say true? How many say false?

wrong Barrett says and When heresy threatened the

Trinitarian heart of this gospel summary talking about the Nicene Creed this rule of faith The unit the church universal met and wrote another creed.

Oh, he's talking about the Apostles Creed When when heresy threatened the night the Apostles Creed The church got together wrote another creed the

Nicene Creed. The creed was faithful to Scripture and for that reason Was authoritative for Christians everywhere and always to depart from the

Nicene Creed was to depart from biblical teaching itself To abandon the

Nicene Creed was to abandon the God of the gospel Himself and we're going to develop that over the weeks and months that follow

I thought about going, you know Departing into the Nicene Creed, but we're gonna be in this long enough to I Think to mine all that If you read the

Nicene Creed you won't disagree with it in all likelihood Because it is it is

Orthodoxy and and what we're going to see even this morning as we as we continue

When people depart from the Nicene Creed, what do they do? They wander into Heresy Okay, number 26

True or false some words are needed and by the way The other handout that I gave to everybody just as an aside has a list of terms that are taken from the back of the book here and And I recommend again the book it's there's a glossary in the back and what we did was we just took that and Reformatted a bit and printed it out

So, you know if we say some word and you're like, I have no idea what that is It's probably in that glossary and if it's not in that glossary glossary raise your hand and we'll talk about it

True or false some words are needed to protect the church from heresy some words emphasis on terms.

I You know, it has the little yellow mark here, which we learned yesterday morning is

Infallible when it's got the indelible yellow mark. It's it's true Some words are needed to protect the church from heresy

Barrett says we need to hear a voice no longer heard today That is the voice of our church fathers.

We will go back in time to the fourth century to understand why our fathers Chose certain words and phrases to protect the

Trinity of the Bible from heresy We also discovered that they left us a trinitarian grammar a language to be exact that teaches us how to distinguish between Father Son and Holy Spirit as Scripture does but without compromising the oneness or simplicity of our triune

God So words are Important words matter and we're going to see that again and again and again, for example if I say

If I say to you, you know, what is Modalism and you say well,

I don't really know but if you watch that video this week, then you probably know but if I say

That the Trinity is The one God appearing in different ways

Then what am I doing? The one God appearing in different ways.

Is that correct? That's modalism

Patrick That's exactly, right I'd say that's modalism Kirsty except for you know,

Lutherans always say Patrick It's kind of odd. But anyway That's modalism

Patrick, yeah words matter when we're talking about the Trinity number 27 true or false every theologian the

Every theologian the Roman Catholic Church claims as their own is wrong on the Trinity. That's false

In fact he says Barrett says in the next chapter We will meet these fathers who make up this great tradition this theological dream team and despite bad press

They are a team for in their own ways. They each retrieve that biblical teaching of the Nicene Creed We'll watch the dream team pass the ball

Or hand the baton off right noticing how they work as one the whole team assuming the same

Nicene rules of the game and each team member having the Nicene Fundamentals down to ensure that we remain faithful to the scriptures now the

Roman Catholic Church wants to claim all of them as Their own What else is the

Roman Catholic Church do that's not true. It claims Peter as its own

I mean, it claims a lot of people as its own and we're going to see even

Barrett says That the Roman Catholic Church as such did not come about Probably until around and I forget the exact date but somewhere around 600

AD They want you to believe that, you know basically as soon as Jesus left the

Roman Catholic Church started of course it then started in Jerusalem and migrated to Rome but For you know, whatever reason but any thoughts or questions before we move on in chapter 2

Objections, okay seeing none chapter 2 number 1 and we already covered this so this is kind of Review but it's a good review true or false extra biblical words should not be used to describe the

Trinity False false false false false false false nine nine nine false false false

Barrett says heretics use the Bible to subordinate the Son right just citing the

Bible doesn't always Make your case because you can take a verse out of context here or there

And he says the church fathers used extra biblical language That is to say words outside the

Bible to protect the Trinity of the Bible for example, each person is a subsistence of the same simple essence

Those ideas are not you know that those words are not the Bible those ideas are there And we're gonna develop that more

Now number two Yes No, I'm keeping it secret under lock and key

Or I have 50 copies sitting right here. I've heard

I've heard of both ways Okay.

So number one for those of you who didn't see it Which would be all of you extra biblical words should not be used to describe the

Trinity that is That is false number two true or false

Arianism is Orthodox Christianity And Right about now you should be like is

Arianism. What in the world is that? Well, it should be I think it is in here Let's see Well, it should be

Arianism Man, that is a bummer. That's Arianism Patrick.

Okay, who wants to describe what Arianism is? Seeing no volunteers

No volunteers, come on people Okay, go ahead, okay good

Arius First of all heretic secondly, he said it at some point the

Sun had to not exist Because that's the nature he thought of a

Sun therefore The Sun was Created and we're gonna talk more about Arianism because Arius although he winds up being, you know a heretic of the worst order as As with many heretics his his intent wasn't always bad and what do

I say that about heretics? well, it's like with Pelagians as as another example

Pelagians were didn't like or didn't like original sin and Why didn't they like it?

because they wanted Man to have free will know they wanted to protect

God against the accusation that he's Not fair so if everybody has a free will

Pelagius said then everybody has an equal chance and God is now fair as Pelagius decided fair was well with Arius again.

He's trying to protect protect God against Accusations that he doesn't think are quite right.

And so he creates this whole system To do that and we're gonna see more of that But Arianism is orthodox

Christianity is false Arianism is actually popular today, it's

Jehovah Witnesses Mormons. I'm sure there are other cults that do the same thing

Number three True or false the father became a father when he begot the son that is false and this false

Barrett says Alexander taught like many before him that the biblical names father son and spirit are not random meaningless inventions rather these names reveal who this

Trinity is The son for example is the son because he is from the father but listen from all eternity

Begotten by the father before all ages. So he's the eternal son of God That is what scriptures mean whenever it calls

Christ the Son and so then the father is eternally the father He never became a father.

So the idea that he you know at one point Wasn't a father is wrong.

And here's what he says about Arius Arius was deeply disturbed by such a teaching it violated the central tenet of monotheism producing in his mind producing not one but Two gods how can you say the father's

God and the son is God and he saw it as Becoming you know, two two separate gods

You know what yes Jonathan, okay Well, I I want to kind of summarize so help me out in summarizing what you said in the time before time

Okay, the the the father was the father was alone Okay Okay Before creation.

Well, what did time exist before creation and see and and and the answer is no, right?

and and so there's the problem because our poor little human mind say Wait Well before there was any time how can we measure what time was?

Yeah Yeah simplified for me so Would we say at any point that there was the father and not the son

I? See that hand. It's three -quarters of the way up. It's closed in a fist. Okay now it's all the way up They're all trick questions

The father became a father when he began it, but see I didn't really There there is no was

Right and and and see and and I think I think it it helps me because I am a simple man

It helps me to just think of time not as the way we do But as a location because if God sees time from beginning to end which he does

Right then for God Time is not time. Does that make sense?

I mean if I roll out a map do I think oh That's a lovely adventure there or do I just think that's a map, right?

And so I I think in a kind of and You know by way of analogy if God just rolls out time.

He doesn't think oh, that's a long period of time He just thinks that's time. It's a place.

It's a it's a thing. It's not what we experience So so literally

I'll get to you in a second so literally when we say Jesus entered Into his creation he entered into all of it including time

He wasn't in time and then thought okay. Now. I'm also going to go to earth. He's outside of time

He's God and he enters into the space -time continuum To use the

Star Trek term. Hi, Lisa Feel free

And Okay, yeah,

I mean I Sure, but by you know, the father became a father when he begat the son in human form

Well, the answer that would be false, but it you know And I guess to Andrews point, you know, the tricky part of the question is the word

When right because there was no when he's not created of God Okay, and again, we're you know, some sometimes the words matter, but he is eternally

Generated, right Yeah, he proceeds you don't know what that means, okay

All right, so let's go let's go to number four and we'll see I think Lisa's right I think this will help a little bit

True or false the Sun is caused and has a beginning false

For God to be God Barrett says he must be unbegotten He alone is the enemy and he's talking about the father here, but he says

This was Arius's view, right? He says he alone the father is the anarchos

God that the not anarchist But the that the crowned one that you know the one in charge the one without cause and beginning

But the Sun is the RK caused and brought into existence having a beginning that's what

Arius believed but Arius was Wrong. He's a heretic. He started his own theological school the school of heresy

Can you imagine that here men here at heresy? seminary

Yeah, heresy you go Right. There never was a time when the Sun did not exist

There was never I mean and again, you know, the the word time is problematic no matter what but there was

You know the idea of there being a coming together you know of of the things that create

God are wrong because then God could be divisible and Then there would be something greater than God So wrong

Yeah We're not to the Ascension part yet, I've got I'm kidding.

It's only a joke. No, it's only When he ascended Was he still?

100 % God 100 % man. Okay. I asked the class

Was he 100 % man 100 % God before the incarnation? No Yes, he was chosen before the foundation of the world to be the the

Savior But he wasn't a man until he was incarnated John you're saying

Yes, he is still 100 % Man 100 % God. I Mean, I I read some people who it and it makes it sound like he's no longer 100 %

God and I'm like, oh no He still is It's okay Good question though.

Yes still 100 % and eternally 100 % You know truly

God and truly man from now on Other questions. Yes. Mm -hmm

Again this is something we will we will repeat over and over and over again in a number of different ways and it's good to have our

Westminster portion here today, but That's a good question is

Jesus in fact Why isn't that on the quiz? Is he eternally begotten or is he begotten in the incarnation and the answer would be what?

He's eternally begotten. We we you know, it does he You know, he's manifested in the flesh, but he's eternally begotten which means

We could say, you know some of the terminology that you use eternally

Generated, you know, I mean eternally proceeding from the father, you know, I mean these kind of things.

Well, what does that mean? Means there was never a time when he didn't exist I mean and you know again, we that the problem with discussing time is it's kind of immaterial would be like I Can't even come up with an analogy, but but the idea again if you just think of time as maybe as a place the idea then that God would be concerned with time before time exists is a little bit

Odd it it just is it it's not even a question for God Because he's eternally he's outside of time

But yes, is it difficult to understand how Jesus is eternally

You know, he's eternally begotten of the father. Is that difficult to understand? Yes Are you looking for a different word?

I don't like it Yeah, Charlie Okay Okay areas

Okay, now I can agree with what you said at the at the end there I mean the earlier part

I felt like there's a Warren's Yvonne that says, you know Put me through some changes Lord kind of like a wearing blender and that's what

I felt like I was in the wearing blender bird He's eternally begotten and then begotten in the flesh

I think both of those are true, right But I I think and the earlier part, you know,

I think I think there could be some heretics or some Unbelievers who maybe

I mean, what do they say? They said he's a he's he does these things by the power of Satan, you know the power of Beelzebub.

He's got a demon So, yeah, I could see where that, you know that idea could kind of come along because the idea of Although you know what to be fair the idea of a god acting like a human being isn't that remote

You know if we if you read mythology Roman or Greek mythology their so -called gods

Did things that were Very human But the idea of the eternal

God Entering into the time -space continuum being made in the form of man you know or entering into the form of a man taking on that that additional nature that was definitely new and And Had you know, obviously never before never since Okay, so back to Janice question.

Did we answer Janice question? Did we answer your question? Bob what does begotten mean?

I mean and that's and that's good So if we just look at it this way when we say eternally begotten, we may not like that language

But it's identifying language. It helps us to understand the difference between the father who's

Unbegotten right has no has no source whatsoever the son who is eternally begotten and then the spirit who is

Spirited which is to say that he sent by the father and the son But they're all three fully

God They're all three Individual persons of the one

God and you say well, how does that work exactly? This is why we have the language that we have right it's it's these are difficult

Issues to wrestle with yes.

Yeah. Yeah, and I think that's right, right? It why why is this so hard for us to comprehend because Exactly what

Bob was saying it is the finite Trying to comprehend the infinites, you know our limited, you know dinosaur brains

Trying to comprehend the one who not only spoke and created the universe but upholds it and yet Never loses any energy while he's doing all that and you know, how is this possible?

What about conservation many all these things that we you know that we know for fact and we go well

God doesn't really isn't bound by what we know Jonathan Well, yes, and we'll never fully grasp it.

And so, you know, some people would say well if we can't fully grasp it why study it at all and The the there are several reasons for that one is

I mean, can you think of any reasons why to study the Trinity? Okay, worship is one

Wonder okay.

Okay. I want to worship a God who's more complex than I am right and he is the name Excellent to protect us from heresy because every heretical view does what it veers off from Orthodox Trinitarianism so I mean these things are extremely valuable for us

I mean if you just want to understand God better you study the Trinity now, you won't master it.

Is that a problem? well only if you're like I Was really hoping

I could get a God that I'm just kind of bored with You know that I'm done with that. I've Mastered.

Yeah, I mean is it is the Trinity important? Well only if it's important like Charlie said that it's actually and truly

God on the cross And is that important and the answer is yes. Well, why and you have to go through all these

Issues to sort of understand and wrestle with it Okay Yes, yes.

Oh Yeah, but it's fun to say 200 % truly and truly truly

God and truly man Yes Okay Okay, number five last one true or false

Because Jesus died on the cross there is something different about his deity Because Jesus died on the cross.

There is something different about his deity it's false, and I'm just gonna you know take about a 30 point knockoff on on my

Question there because that's really an awful question Yeah Because Jesus died on the cross there's something different about his deity.

I know what I was shooting for but here's what? Barrett says he says Arius was convinced

That Alexander another church father that we're going to be discussing had violated the creator creature distinction the one monarch

God is infinite eternal immutable impassable and therefore incomprehensible to created beings who are finite temporal mutable impassable

By claiming that the son who became incarnate is also God one with the father

Alexander had introduced changed into the very nature of God and not just any change, but the worst kind of The worst kind possibility because he died is ultimately the conclusion that areas came to Jesus was different because He died the problem of course for areas is that who died on the cross?

Well the man Christ Jesus or God God Yes Yes is the correct answer, but I I mean in in his in his deity did he cease to exist and And and that's the and that's the key

And that's what areas you know I I mean again, you know these men Aries was was no slouch when it came to intellect, but sometimes being super intellectual is a

Detriment you know you can you can walk right into heresy as you're as you're thinking about these things

And we could do one more sure sure number six

True or false adoptionism means that Jesus became the son at his incarnation It's true

Adoptionism is false, but the question is true Adoptionism means that Jesus became the son of his incarnation that part is true, but listen

Aries Barrett says Aries was no adoptionist And then he's then he defines it as if the man

Christ Jesus was declared to be God's Son at the start of his incarnation And you know the one of the reasons why

I want to put that down if you start By the way if you want to talk about a dopey thing to debate about on the

Internet Trinity it's a bad thing to because you it'll take you about 30 seconds to wind up Interacting with a heretic

III had somebody you know yes, I am that dumb Who's who said to me well you know

Jesus became The son or the son became the son at his incarnation,

I'm just like Okay, I need to unfollow this conversation. I'm out of here because I don't want to I Don't want to take the time to explain to you how wrong that is

You know it wasn't on my wall, so I just faded away But the answer to number six

It's just like it was just my sneaky way of getting adoptionism in here because I don't think it's in here It's one of the it's one of the many heresies

That he doesn't list I think he he mostly sticks to the good stuff in here Which is helpful you know if it's not on this list you could probably go well.

It's probably heresy if it's not on here So Thoughts or questions before we close

Okay Adoptionism is it different than the idea that maybe Jesus was just a man until he was baptized

I'm not really familiar with that, but it would be the same kind of heresy right I mean pick a point on a map on the you know continuum there and say he wasn't really a man

Or he wasn't really the son or he wasn't really God. You know I mean Mormons say that there was a point

Where he became God I found it interesting when I of course I found it interesting When I was doing my thing on Mormons several weeks ago in the evening and the

Mormons actually believe that Jesus was kind of promoted to What's the word

God a temporary God like you know God pro tem

Before his before his incarnation But it was like a test to see whether he would live up to what he was being given

And then you know he was affirmed as God which you know again This is what when you when you wander into the waters of heresy

You're gonna drown so Number six was true adoptionism, and I don't care what point you pick whether it was at his incarnation when he was baptized

On the cross if there's any point where you just say well, it's here that he became the son

Wrong you know he's eternally the son Okay, let's pray father.

Thank you for Your word, thank you for these men throughout the centuries who faithfully taught and defended these doctrines who fought against heresy

Who even would condemn it and risk their lives to condemn heresy

Would you give us a Spirit that wants to know you better that wants to know more about the

Father the Son the Spirit wants to understand scripture better wants to be able to defend the truth better and wants to have as it were our

Trinitarian radar on so we when we hear things that are wrong even if it's as simple as 100 %

God 100 % man rather than truly God and truly man or whether it's

Adoptionism or whatever the heresy is father help us to just be ready To hear that to reject it and to come back with the truth