Law, Gospel, and Sanctification w/ The Baptist Broadcast | Theocast

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When you look at your life and you consider your sanctification, does that ever lead you to despair and think that there's no way that you could be

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God's child? If that's you, today's episode is for you.

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We're gonna have a conversation today about the law and the gospel and how that relates to sanctification. And we have the privilege of having this conversation,

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John and I, with a friend of ours named Josh Sommer, who hosts a podcast called The Baptist Broadcast.

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And so the three of us talk about this most important issue and how the gospel and the law are both used of God in the transformation of our lives and are used of God in the transformation of our lives in a way that gives peace and assurance and rest.

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We hope this encourages you, stay tuned. Before we jump into the podcast, we wanna tell you about a really important announcement.

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We're doing a one -day conference on suffering and the return of Christ. It's gonna be January 18th, 2024 in Escondido, California.

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And we're gonna be doing it with the Bounding Grace Radio with the host, Chris Gordon. And we're gonna be hosting it at his church, which is

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Escondido United Reformed Church. We're gonna be having four sessions, gonna start in the morning,

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Thursday morning at 10 a .m. And we're gonna go all the way through the evening and we're gonna have a special guest with us that evening,

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Dr. Bob Godfrey, who's gonna be joining us in a panel as we discuss the importance of suffering and eschatology and why our eschatology matters.

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Please go and register. It's gonna be January 18th in Escondido, California.

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And we look forward to seeing you there. All right, well, welcome to the

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Baptist Broadcast. I have, as you can see, two special guests. If you're watching on YouTube, of course, if you're listening, you can't see anything, but you will be able to hear pretty soon.

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I've got John Moffitt and Justin Perdue. You know, guys, there are three J names here right now, and that gets a little bit confusing.

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John Moffitt and Justin Perdue with TheoCast. Guys, I appreciate you coming on.

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It's good to have you. I'm excited to talk about what we're gonna talk about today. Let's do this.

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Calling us special guests, man, that's debatable. That's right. Yeah, well, don't get a big head over it.

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We'll try to - I don't think we do. I don't think we do. So we've got very important things to talk about today.

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And with the potential of going off on rabbit trails and latching onto some associated topics, we're gonna try our hardest to stay with sanctification, specifically as sanctification relates to the law and the gospel.

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And of course, if you listen to TheoCast, you know that these guys are heavily interested, rightfully so, in the law gospel distinction, understanding the law, proclaiming the law unvarnished, and also proclaiming the gospel, the true gospel, unmixed and untainted with man's works.

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And so this is a very important topic, especially as we get to sanctification.

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I was talking to Justin and we were talking about how there are articulations, ways of describing sanctification that almost border on suggesting that when we get to sanctification, when we're talking about sanctification, we kind of leave the gospel behind and we move on to our works and our deeds, and we kind of take it from there, almost this synergistic, semi -Pelagian way of thinking about the order of salvation.

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And I think that's a mistake. I think our works are involved, but we have to see the gospel as a foundation and the fountainhead for our sanctification.

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Before we get started, if we have listeners that do not listen to TheoCast, maybe they're new even to my podcast, and maybe they're new to the law gospel distinction.

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What's this language about law and gospel? I thought the two were friends, not opposed to one another.

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Why are you guys talking about it like it's two different things and pitting them against one another? Maybe we could just talk about for a little bit the difference between the law gospel.

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What is the law gospel distinction? And I'll just throw it to you guys and let you guys kind of articulate that and bring that out for the listeners.

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What's the law gospel distinction? Go ahead,

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Justin. So the law and the gospel are not in any way opposed to each other.

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So I want us to be really clear about that. They are complimentary with an E in God's economy of salvation.

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And he has given his two words in the scripture, his word of law and his word of gospel, and they are used by him to save all of his people.

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And simple ways to think about this. Whenever in the scriptures, Old or New Testament, whenever we read of what

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God requires for righteousness in terms of what we are to do in order to be righteous in God's sight, that is law.

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And whenever we read of what Christ has done that is given to us by God in his grace, received by faith, that's gospel.

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So do or do this and live is law. That's the law as a covenant of works.

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You will be saved by what you do effectively if you do these things well enough, you will have life.

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Do this and live, that's law. Christ has done it. Receive what he has done and live in him, that's gospel.

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And if I'm gonna put it in a maybe provocative way, the law demands everything and gives nothing.

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Whereas the gospel demands nothing and gives everything.

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And that sounds very, very uncomfortable to many evangelicals today, because it sounds like, oh guys, that could lead into all kinds of things, which we're gonna talk about, the law and gospel and sanctification.

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But effectively, do is law, done is gospel. And we see both of these things revealed in the

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Old and New Testaments. And in terms of the law as a covenant of works, we have no ability as fallen sinners in Adam to keep it unto righteousness.

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And so we therefore are driven to Christ alone who has kept the law in our place as our representative, which

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I'm sure we'll get into more in a moment. But that's how I would begin to talk about the distinction between the two. Yeah, that's good.

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John, please feel free to add anything you want. Yeah, just jump in anytime, cut me off, if you have something to say or you've had a thought.

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No, I think that's a great definition. I don't really have anything to add to that. So we can start the conversation where it gets spicy.

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Yeah, I was just gonna say, I've tried to encourage saints at the church

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I serve by saying something like, the gospel is what

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God does for us, full stop, that you put a period there. Or Josh, if I may jump in and say, the gospel contains nothing in it whatsoever that we are to do.

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The gospel is solely the message of what Christ has done. And so you get this language, like in Lloyd -Jones,

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I think it was him who said, and I think there've been others, maybe Spurgeon and some others who have said, when you preach the gospel, you should be mistaken as an antinomian.

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And the reason is because you're omitting your works and you're taking the spotlight off of yourself and you're throwing it completely on Christ.

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And without an understanding of the law gospel distinction, someone might jump to the conclusion that that is antinomian.

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Where's the law? Where's your duty? Where's your response? And so on. So, yeah, good.

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Thanks, Justin for that. Yeah, there's a distinction that I'm starting to make. Yeah, there's a distinction that I'm starting to make in this conversation that I think is important because this is the part that people

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I think miss often is that there's a natural and supernatural side to these.

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The law speaks to the natural side of the flesh where it basically tells the flesh what it must and must not do.

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The gospel is not also natural. That's how we treat it though, as if there's something in the gospel that the flesh then must participate in as well.

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We'll call it like repentance, but that's not the gospel. The gospel is described by Paul as, we don't like this word, but it's what it is.

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It's magical power. He literally says the gospel is the power of God.

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Well, how do you describe that? There is no, there's nothing else on earth that can be described as God's power, nothing.

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Now, there are these words, when you put them together and you use those words, then there's a supernatural nature to them.

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And that's what we're trying to defend and protect is that when these words are proclaimed to a sinner, they literally take them from death to life.

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It's a declaration of truth that encaps, because of that truth, it's not just like, oh, these are true statements.

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These acts happened, right? Christ became a man, the Messiah became a man. He lived for us, he died for us, he rose and now intercedes for us.

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That's the gospel. And when you proclaim that to a dead person, that not only brings them to life, but it sustains them, right, unto eternity.

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So we're talking about natural versus supernatural, because the law is literally a set of rules describing how

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God expects the world to function in his creation. The gospel is the good news for those who cannot make that happen.

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So it's natural versus supernatural. And what happens when there's a law gospel collapsing, it literally removes the supernatural side of it.

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And it basically says that the gospel is the good news that if you do your part, then God will do his. Right, whereas we rejoice in the fact that the gospel is done.

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Jesus has finished the work. And if I can interject really quick on the natural supernatural dynamic, I think we're gonna talk about the law and the gospel and sanctification on this show.

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A lot of the confusion that arises over sanctification is a result of confusing the natural and supernatural pieces of what

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John just said. How often do we hear the objection that you can't tell people that everything is finished or they will not be motivated to pursue obedience.

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That's right. You cannot tell people that Christ has done it all and that redemption is over, because then there won't be any skin in the game and people won't give a rip about holiness.

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Okay, well, that would be true if this was a natural process. If even sanctification was a natural process, you might be onto something.

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But last time we checked, this is a supernatural reality. It's the work of God. And so the preaching of the utter sufficiency of Christ actually empowers sanctification and it fuels and propels it rather than being an obstacle and a hindrance to it.

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And we're gonna beat that drum until the day that we die and keep heralding that from the rooftops, but I will leave it there for now.

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And I'm sure we're gonna get into the details and some of how this works here in the next few moments. Yeah, and what you guys are describing is the difference between just behavioral modification and true evangelical sanctification.

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And I think in the legalist circles, all you have really is a behavioral and external behavioral modification where if you behave this certain way, therefore it means you're more

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Christian and you're more holy than if you don't. And it's all externals.

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Whereas true sanctification, we're looking to Christ and then Christ through his spirit works in us to produce a true obedience from the heart.

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That's excellent, excellent distinctions, guys. I really appreciate that. And I think that'll be clarifying for the listeners as well.

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So that's the law gospel distinction in a nutshell. A good resource, by the way, would be John Calhoun's treatise on law and gospel.

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That's a resource that has been helpful for me. Yeah, it's an excellent one. And so those who are listening, tuning in, check that out.

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But let's move on to sanctification because this is an episode where I kind of want to focus on the law gospel distinction as it relates to sanctification.

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So when we say sanctification, and we just kind of touched on this just now, when we say sanctification, what do we mean?

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The doctrine of sanctification, what is that? Maybe we could break that down. Yeah, often in scripture,

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I find this happens quite a bit where we take an

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English word and we'll use it all over the place. And because of that, it loses its original meanings or how it's intended to be meant.

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I said this on Sunday, the word awful used to mean in its original form to be in awe of.

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So I looked at my wife on Sunday morning right when she got rolled out of bed and I said, you look awful. And she's like, really? But that's not what it means.

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And with the word sanctification, I find that this is true, that when you say the word sanctification, there's a clustering, a mixing of things that are happening.

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So the word sanctify means to be set apart. And there are times, Josh and Justin, that we are called to be setting ourselves apart from the world, right?

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We are to sanctify ourselves. We're not to act immoral like we used to.

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We're not to be dishonest, right? These are parts where we used to be, what is

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Hebrews, I'm sorry, Ephesians two says, you once did this, but now you're gonna stop doing that.

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And that is a setting apart for the sake of, right? So we would agree with that. And that word sanctification could be confusing because we would then assume that all sanctification means that, but that's not necessarily the truth.

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When it talks about a work of the spirit, what it's talking about is how the spirit comes, and we know this, and I'm sure we can use a lot of verses here in a minute.

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He who began a good work and you will complete it. As Paul says to the Galatians, how did you begin? Which is by faith, is how you're going to continue.

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There is a, we are brought from death to life by the power of the spirit. And when the spirit comes to live within us, he continues that work of increasing our faith and trust in Christ, which then gives us the capacity to repent and resist temptation, right?

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So that power comes from Christ and it comes through the work of the Holy Spirit. So we would say that our way in which we come to life, which is through the gospel, our salvation is a work of the spirit.

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We would also say that our work of sanctification, meaning that there's an ongoing process where we are changing our hearts and our desires into a reflection of Christ, that would also be a work of the spirit.

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And so the way in which it's often described is you are, you have been sanctified, you are being sanctified, you will be sanctified, which means that there's a final stage when the process of sanctification is all over and we are fully glorified.

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So that definition of sanctification can often be confused because of how the word is used.

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Yeah, John, and the sanctification of the believer is effectively the ongoing transformation of our lives.

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It's the inward renewal that is the work of God's spirit in and through us. And so justification,

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I think this distinction is important. When we are justified, that is to be forgiven of sin and declared righteous in the sight of God.

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And that is something that happens. It's a very punctiliar thing, right? Upon being united to Christ, we are justified and that is definitively done.

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And we, to be presently justified is to be finally saved and it guarantees that we will be glorified.

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But between our point of justification and our death and then bodily resurrection or the return of Christ, there is the ongoing transformation and renewal of our inner man.

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And that is the process of sanctification. A brief comment on this that I think does matter, and this is something that I think for me has become increasingly clear in recent years is that we as Christians are sinner saints.

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We have a regenerate part of us that new nature, and then we also have the old man, the flesh.

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So we have both. We carry the corpse of the old man around with us. We drag it around. And like Martin Luther said, the dead man floats, right?

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So this is our experience, that sinner saint reality. We have to understand that the flesh in terms of the body of death is not actually made holy.

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The flesh is not sanctified. It is actually our inner man. It's the regenerate part of us that is transformed and made increasingly holy.

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And that will affect how we then live and think and go about doing things in this world.

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But the flesh will actually not be sanctified and made holy until the return of Christ and then our bodily resurrection.

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So I think that's gonna be important for us as we have this conversation about sanctification. Yeah, that is an excellent clarifying point because actually getting to the doctrine of repentance, it seems like sometimes the ways in which the doctrine of repentance is described is a journey toward perfectionism.

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And if you just repent enough, you'll eventually be rid of all of these bosom sins or whatever it is that you're dealing with.

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So I think that's a really good clarification, Justin. Thanks. Let's now bring these concepts together and talk about the doctrine of sanctification in relationship to the gospel.

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When we're talking about, let's say, for example, the process of sanctification, I think a lot of people think in terms of the process of sanctification, which is an effect of the gospel, or we might be able to say it's an outworking of regeneration and so on.

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In what sense is sanctification... Right. In what sense is sanctification given freely in the gospel?

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Because again, if we're dealing with those who make the assumption that sanctification is kind of, it's the area where you leave the gospel behind, we want to bring that together.

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We want to bring sanctification in relation to the gospel. So in what sense is sanctification given freely in the gospel?

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My mind immediately goes to Romans chapter six to begin this conversation. And many know how that chapter starts.

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Paul had just been talking about the imputation of the righteousness of Christ, that just as Adam's sin and guilt had been counted to us, so the righteousness of Christ is counted to us by faith, and we will reign in eternal life on account of Christ.

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And so then he even goes so far as to say that where sin abounded, grace, the grace of God in Christ abounded all the more.

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And this again leads to our reigning with Christ forever. And then he anticipates an objection, Paul does, in Romans 6, one and following.

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What should we say then? Should we just go on in sin that grace may abound? And he says, by no means. But then notice how he doesn't respond.

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He doesn't say, by no means, here is what the law says. He doesn't say, by no means, if you are a legitimate

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Christian and would prove yourself to not be a faker, here is how you'll live. He says, by no means, for we have been united to Christ.

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We have been baptized into the Lord Jesus. And then he makes an argument that we have been justified from sin's guilt.

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And we are now to reckon ourselves, to consider ourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

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And then he tells us that we are freed thereby from the dominion and the tyranny of sin.

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And then verse 17, we have become obedient from the heart. So in that regard, our union with Christ, so what is the gospel other than Christ for us and to be united to Jesus by faith, he becomes our representative and through our vital union with him, everything that's his is ours.

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So we would say this, Jesus is the fountainhead of holiness and Jesus is the fountainhead of sanctification.

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And so through our union with him, those stream waters, those floodwaters of sanctification and holiness begin to flow.

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And when those waters are still flowing and they never dry up, sanctification will occur. And so that's how our union with Christ and our faith in the

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Lord Jesus, walking and living in him, abiding in him, it will necessarily result in the transformation of our inner man.

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And so it is given to us in the gospel. And I don't know how many Christians have ever heard somebody say that, that your sanctification is certain because of your union with Christ.

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And my final kind of put a bow on this, if I'm gonna summarize it in a sentence, the sanctification of believers rests on the same foundation and comes from the same source as their justification, namely union with Jesus Christ.

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And that's how sanctification is given to us. It's a gift of God to us in the gospel as we receive

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Christ by faith. Yeah, I would add to that, 2 Peter, he just encapsulates this so beautifully.

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2 Peter 1 .3, his divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, right?

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Through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence.

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So there's, you have to ask yourself by whose power do we pursue godliness? I mean,

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Peter is not even ashamed of it. And then I love this because then he says a lot of things after that, but in verse five, he says, for this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue.

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So because of his divine power that lives within you, you can pursue godliness. You know,

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I love this about the new covenant that comes to us from Jeremiah and Ezekiel, but he says,

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I will put my words in you and I will cause you to walk in my statues, right? I being the source.

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One last verse, Hebrew, I'm sorry, Ephesians 6, when he says, when you're, you know, you wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and all of this scary stuff.

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What does he say to stand? Stand in the strength of the Lord, right? So it's God's power being implanted in us by the means of the spirit.

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That's where we stand while we pursue godliness, knowing that the source behind that is not our discipline, but the source behind that is a divine power.

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Amen, and even that Ephesians 6 reality of the armor of God, I mean, we've talked about this before, that to put on the armor of God, or even in the language of Romans 13, that we put on the

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Lord Jesus Christ and make no provision for the flesh. To put on the armor of God is to put on Christ. It is to behold him and apprehend him.

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And I mean, when we're talking about helmets of salvation and breastplates of righteousness, but dear saint out there, I promise to you, that's not your righteousness.

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I mean, that is Christ for us, right? So, I mean, even in that regard, where do we stand? Can we stand in Christ as we live this

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Christian life? Yeah, and Justin, you were mentioning, that goes right along with bringing union with Christ in as really the touchstone of everything.

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And putting on Christ gives that connotation, but also like 1 Corinthians 1, verses 30 through 31, it's like, but of him who are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God and righteousness and sanctification and redemption, that as it is written, he who glories, let him glory in the

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Lord. And so there's definitely union with Christ. They're in Christ, in Christ. It's like that Ephesians chapter one, in him, he chose you before the foundation of the world.

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And then you're mentioning Jeremiah, the enunciation of the new covenant, where God says,

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I will put my laws in their mind and write them on their hearts. And I will be their

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God and they shall be my people. So what the covenant of works demands as law, uncompromisingly and without giving what it takes to actually meet those demands, the covenant of grace supplies what it takes to walk according to the law of God.

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And that plays in, ties into the nature of sanctification and all of that.

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Hey guys, real quick, some of you are listening to this and it's encouraging to you, but you have questions. So where do you go?

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How do you interact with other people who have the same questions and share resources? We have started something called the

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Theocast Community. And we're excited because not only is it a place for you to connect with other like -minded believers, all of our resources there, past podcasts, education materials, articles, all of it's there.

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You can share it and ask questions. You can go check it out. The link is in the description below. I agree with your citation of 1

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Corinthians 1. I don't know how many Christians think that Christ is their sanctification. Yeah, he's my righteousness and my justification, my redemption, he's my salvation.

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People say that, but then it's as though we unhitch the sanctification piece from the wagon.

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When it comes to our transformation of life, we don't necessarily think that Christ is our sanctification in that through union with him and through beholding him and apprehending him, our lives are changed.

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And I don't mean to, we could bring this up. I know that there was a, we don't need to name names or anything like that, but there was a relatively well -known theologian in the last couple of years who made a statement that justification is just paperwork in heaven, but that it will not do anything to change your life.

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And I think that's a dead giveaway as to the problem that exists here, because to act as though justification is merely a forensic category or a forensic idea, but it has no transformative power is not biblical and is so unhelpful.

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And actually, speaking from the historical reform tradition, from that perspective, to see sanctification occur, you better preach

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Christ. You better emphasize Jesus for sinners and herald justification through union with Christ if we want to see saints' lives changed.

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And so that is a piece of why Theocast exists, and I'm so thankful for this conversation today, because more saints need to hear this, that their union with Christ and the fact that they have been brought from death to life in the

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Lord Jesus Christ has everything to do with their transformation of life even now. Yeah, I didn't mean to jump in and quote

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Hebrews 12. It literally says to look unto Jesus, the author and finisher of your faith.

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And as you look to Jesus, you set aside, which is the sanctification process, you set aside the weight and the sin that easily besets us, right?

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It's not looking to yourself, it's not fear, it's not judgment, it's not self -discipline.

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You're looking unto Christ. So if you're not offering the sinners Christ week in, week out, then they're not gonna have a reason to lay aside their weight and their sin, because they're gonna be trapped in it, trying to do it in their own strength.

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Yeah, word. Yeah, yeah. So bringing now, we've related sanctification to the gospel.

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Let's bring the law into the equation. And so when we talk about the law, we're typically referencing the moral law.

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We're not talking about the ceremonial or the civil law in the Old Testament, but the moral law of God. How does that law interact or interface with sanctification?

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In other words, if I'm a Christian being sanctified, what do I have to do with the law? Yeah, well, we don't have all wisdom.

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We as humans, we like to think we know all things, but we don't. And there's much about God that is a mystery to us.

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And in his kindness and his graciousness, God provides for us a reflection of what is good and holy and right.

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And therefore we love that part of the law, because we want to, for the glory of his name and for the good of our neighbor, we want to do that which is guaranteed by God.

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Like this is what's loving, this is what's kind, this is what a reflection of holiness looks like.

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And so for those of us who live in the love of God under the gospel, the law becomes just a sweetness to us because we want to be guided by it because we know the bent of our flesh.

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Our bent of our flesh is to rebel against the father. And so we need the gospel to remind us not to do that.

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And then the law comes in and it guides us in such a way where there could be confusion.

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At times our heart and mind do become confused. Like what is the right thing to do here?

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And the law steps in and says, dear child, here's the right thing to do. And we're like, thank you for that guidance because this was a little confusing.

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And so that's where the law, we don't hate the law. The law becomes a way for us while we still live in unglorified bodies, the law becomes a way for us to effectively live for the king and love and care for one another.

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No word. My short response to how does the law relate or how does sanctification relate to God's law?

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Well, the law of God guides our sanctification. And it's important to distinguish this, that the law cannot empower sanctification, but it does guide it.

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Just like when it comes to justification on the front end, we would say that the law cannot give life, it can only kill.

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Well, so it is in sanctification. The law cannot transform, it can only guide, but it's a useful guide and we need the guide.

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And so I also would want to say to this, inevitably to talk about sanctification and the law, we've got to get into the historical categories of uses of the law.

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And in particular, I think to talk about the first and the third use as they're historically referred to, the first and greatest use of the law is to show us our sin and drive us to Christ who kept it for us, right?

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So it's the mirror, so to speak, where I evaluate myself in light of the law and see how far short

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I fall and thereby I'm undone. I am despairing of my own righteousness and casting myself on Christ and receiving his righteousness.

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That's the first use of the law. But then the third use is to guide our living in the

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Lord Jesus. The law doesn't condemn us, it doesn't threaten us, it's not scary anymore. We actually delight in it in our inner man now because we've been born again and we seek conformity unto it by the power of the

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Spirit, the Spirit of Christ working in and through us. Now, I would say that the first and third use are useful for the

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Christian in sanctification. The third use I trust is clear. It guides our lives. How do we know what righteousness looks like?

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We look to the law. How do I know what's good for my neighbor? I look to the law. How do I know what's gonna wreck my life and hurt my neighbor?

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I also look to the law. But then the first use of the law, that crushing me and killing self -righteousness and driving me to Christ, that piece is actually useful too in my sanctification.

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Like week over week, I know in my own congregation, I wanna be super clear, not just to the unbelievers who may be visiting, but to the members of our church.

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Like yet again this week, lest we get it twisted, we have no righteousness of our own. We have not kept the law.

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And we are coming here with a collective sense of our need of Christ and casting ourselves upon him because he is the one who has kept it and he is our righteousness.

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And what does that do? Well, it continues to humble us. It continues to show us our need of Christ.

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It continues to remind us of how dependent we are upon the Lord for grace and how dependent upon Christ we are for righteousness in our standing.

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And that is used of the Lord to fuel our sanctification as well. As we look to the law as our good guide for living in the

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Lord Jesus Christ. And so we love the law. Like you said earlier, dude, oftentimes you distinguish between the law and the gospel and people call you an antinomian.

33:25

Far from it. Distinguish between the law and the gospel helps us use the law rightly and actually helps us as Christians to love the law more.

33:34

Yeah, yeah, the law gospel distinction is a way to protect both. And whereas legalism or something like neonomianism or something like that actually steps down the law so that it can be more palatable to the flesh.

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And so they're actually antinomian in that respect. The legalist is an antinomian in that respect. And the law gospel distinction helps us to understand that the law is uncompromising and the problem's not in the law, it's in us.

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And therefore we need the gospel. And then you have those first and third uses of the law. I was also gonna say that -

34:16

Josh, can I offer an illustration real quick? Yeah, yeah, go ahead. What's interesting about the law is that we often don't just, if you just take modern day laws, okay?

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For instance, like what we have here in the United States, a rule written on a piece of paper does not give me the capacity to then fulfill it.

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Like we just don't think about it in that way. That's exactly what the law of God is.

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It is a written down rule, but there's nothing within the rule that then gives the capacity for one to then actually do what it commands you to do.

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And so that's where, for instance, if you wanna join the military, you have to actually do a fitness test.

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And if you don't pass the fitness test, you can't join the military. And in many ways, this is

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God's law to us. It's like, here's what the fitness test is to be a spiritual being. And then the law, you're supposed to look at that and go, well,

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I can't do that. There's nothing in the law that then says, well, this is how it's done. It doesn't say that.

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It doesn't say, here's how it's to be done. It says, here's what must be done. And we look at that and go, well,

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I can't do that. Right, that's why the gospel has to come in. Being able to identify that is so important because we are taught, here's what the law says and here's how to do the law within the law.

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There's no how in the law. There's only must. And that's where the gospel comes in and says, this is how it's done in the power of the spirit.

35:41

And so that's where we have to keep those two separate. Yeah, no, that's a very, very helpful illustration.

35:49

And I just wanted to say one thing before we move on. I think sometimes also what happens, and we talk about legalism and antinomianism and how we could be mistaken for antinomianism as we preach the gospel and herald the gospel.

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But I think also when you look in terms of more contemporary categories, maybe some would mistake us as being adherents of new covenant theology.

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And new covenant theology is the belief that the law is a unit in the

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Old Testament. There's no tripart distinction. There's no civil ceremonial and moral.

36:34

And that with the passing of the old covenant is the passing of the law altogether. And then we're under the law of Christ, which

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I would agree with the language of the law of Christ while we would differ in terms of what that is.

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And so some have accused them of being antinomian. And as we talk about the law and how we're no longer under the law, but under grace.

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And as we talk about how we need to derive our sanctification from the gospel, maybe some are thinking, well, this kind of just seems like a take on new covenant theology.

37:08

And it's not, it's not. This is a historical position grounded and rooted in scripture, but echoed throughout the confessional literature of the

37:19

Reformation and following onward. Some very important distinctions there to be made.

37:25

Josh, if I can. Yeah. There's so much that could be said and this is probably a separate episode in and of itself to talk about how the law and gospel distinction is not inherently a take on new covenant theology.

37:36

But just a brief word on this is to convey that that is not inherently true whatsoever.

37:42

When we are talking about the law and gospel distinction, we're talking about the distinction between the covenant of works and the covenant of grace effectively, which are historically covenantal categories.

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They are not new covenant theology categories. And so that would be just one brief insertion there.

37:59

If anybody is having that kind of floating in their minds as an objection, not true, because we're talking in historically covenantal categories on this show right now.

38:11

Yeah, I've heard that not in terms of an objection, but in terms of someone once said to me that it sounds similar to new covenant theology.

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And I had to qualify and clarify what I meant versus what someone who adheres to new covenant theology would mean.

38:27

So appreciate that input. Sure, sure. Let's talk about practical things, church issues.

38:36

Obviously, the three of us are pastors and we've been ministering the gospel for different amounts of time in different parts of the country.

38:46

And so we've probably all had different, but principally similar experiences dealing with lack of assurance in members at our churches, people who struggle with finding their assurance in Christ versus trying to locate their assurance in what they've done over the last week or whatever.

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And so I think this really, the rubber on that really hits the road when it comes to sanctification.

39:17

People looking to the measure of their sanctification and their place in that process in order to glean their assurance can often be very destructive.

39:29

And I'm sure you guys have had experiences with that. I've had experience with that. And so maybe we could speak a little bit to that, church issues, practical issues with regard to law, gospel, and sanctification.

39:40

Mm -hmm. Could you imagine a parent who used their child's existence in the family based upon performance?

39:52

Could you, I mean, what would we say to that parent? That's just horrible. You know, the child wakes up every day and just wonders, like,

40:00

I don't know if I'm gonna be in this home anymore or if this is even really my parents, you know? It's just, it's a horrendous thought.

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And what's interesting about this relationship that we enter into with the father is that it's not transactional.

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That's what's so, that's why law, gospel distinction matters. The law is transactional. You do your part, you gain the reward.

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The gospel is he did his part, you gain the reward. And the reward will not be removed, right?

40:27

Because you are in his family by adoption. And so what

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I find repulsive is that people who have put their faith in Christ, who've embraced the gospel, but then live the rest of their life wondering if it's true.

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God never intended that. And passages that often preachers will use and Christians will use to cast fear and doubt into the believer.

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Listen, if you're in unrepentant sin and you're living in vulgarity of life and you are claiming that which is holy as sinful and that which is sinful as holy, you should question your salvation.

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Shame on you, right? But these aren't those people. These people have tender consciences and they hate their sin and they're just wondering, is

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God's gospel sufficient for them? And according to scripture, that there should never be a doubt in our minds based upon God's promises, because it's

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God's faithfulness to save his own, not your faithfulness to make it to the end.

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And so this is where it's so important that as you think about the message of the gospel,

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I think it's interesting. The first humans to violate God, which is

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Adam and Eve, God meets them first of all by killing animals to cover their shame.

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He sheds blood to cover their shame and then immediately meets them with grace.

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I'm going to fix this, but it's gonna cost me my son, right?

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And why would he change the way he interacts with Adam and Eve with anyone else? That's ridiculous, right?

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It's grace upon grace. And he separates our sin as far as the East is from the West and he does not bring it back in and who can accuse us?

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So our sanctification should be in light of that, whereas we aren't sanctifying ourselves because we wanna make sure we're saved.

42:18

We sanctify ourselves because we are. I think whenever we're talking about law and gospel confusion and sanctification, we're talking about bringing our works back into the equation somehow.

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When it comes to our standing and our peace before the Lord, now or in the future, right? And so this happens all the time.

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Whenever you hear guys preach to Christians and it's got this kind of exacting threatening tone of obey or else dot, dot, dot, that kind of edginess to it, that's an indication that the law and the gospel have been collapsed.

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Or when you hear people reason, kind of like what John just was talking about, here's how it often goes, right?

43:00

When you, to collapse law and gospel means we're bringing works back into the equation. So statements, this is how a lot of people

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I think reason out. They say, all right, if you are justified, you will do good works.

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True. If there are no good works, then you are not justified.

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Also true. Therefore, do good works to know you're justified.

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False. That's where the thing falls apart because we have collapsed categories and we have started to bring works back in, not as a fruit, not as a necessary outflow of salvation already received, but as a piece of our standing and our comfort and our confidence before the

43:45

Lord now and in the future. We have now woven works back into the fabric of salvation because we have collapsed the law and the gospel rather than helping people understand that we live from our new identity and live from our new status.

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We are not chasing after something that we don't have already, but we are living like who we are now through our union with the

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Lord Jesus Christ. It's a far better way to exhort the saints. And I would argue that that is how the apostles write in the

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New Testament. That's right. When they exhort the saints to live godly lives, they don't ever hold it out like, oh, well,

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God's gonna drop the hammer on you. Now they use the law in its first use, but when they talk about sanctification, they are saying to the saints, put off the old man, put on the new man.

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What is that? Put on Christ, right? Live in him. Live like who you are now.

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This is who you used to be. That's not who you are anymore. Live like who you are now. That's how the apostles write in all of the epistles.

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And so that's the way that we as pastors should aim to preach and exhort our people when it comes to their pursuit of godliness.

44:55

That's good. I have another thought, Josh, that's very different in its tone and emphasis whenever you want to hear it.

45:03

Yeah, actually, go ahead. I mean, if you want to interact with what we've said up to now, please do, because this will be taking us in a slightly different direction.

45:10

Okay. I was just going to kind of piggyback on what you guys have already said.

45:19

The devastating - Beautiful. The most devastating aspect about what you described, Justin, is that a person who begins to look to what they've done for their assurance has shifted their object of faith from Christ to them, to themselves.

45:41

And so, you know - That's exactly right. That bears repeating. Well, if you're grounding your assurance in yourself, then you're looking to yourself, you're not looking to Christ.

45:53

And that is a devastating, fatal mistake. I'm not saying that true believers can't err in that way.

45:59

I think true believers err in that way all the time. But should that be a prolonged practice?

46:05

Including the three of us right now. Yes, absolutely. But should that be a prolonged practice that is not pastored in some way?

46:14

It could have devastating spiritual consequences. Yeah. And so - Agree, 100%.

46:20

I appreciate that. Go ahead and take us off on the very different direction that you have for us,

46:25

Justin. Yeah, so I don't know that people think about this one. I think the erosion of assurance, which we've already alluded to, is probably on the front of more people's minds when it comes to law gospel confusion.

46:36

But if we collapse the law and the gospel and confuse those categories, we actually cut the law off at the knees in terms of its usefulness to us in sanctification.

46:46

We actually hinder sanctification when we collapse the law and the gospel. So law and gospel clarity fosters and promotes real sanctification because we can actually engage with the law the way that we should.

47:02

Because if I think that a piece of my standing or a portion of my peace before the

47:07

Lord or a part of my final salvation is found in my law keeping, I mean, any amount of it, if I think that, then the way that I'm gonna approach the law is very different than if I am convinced that Christ has given me all of the righteousness that I will ever need and that I am safe and secure in Him, then

47:27

I can engage the law and not soft -pedal it. I don't need to massage my self -assessment when it comes to using the law to expose what's in my heart.

47:38

I can stare it in the face. I can call it what it is. And I can now really assess my heart and mind in light of God's good, holy, and just law, and my sanctification is aided because I have law and gospel clarity.

47:57

So I can ask, how am I really loving my neighbor? How am I loving my spouse or my children?

48:06

Or maybe to put more of a point on it, how am I kind of working an angle and kind of out for myself in this whole thing?

48:12

Like I can, that's just one example. I can really go in there. I don't need to massage it and soft -pedal the law to make myself feel decent about how

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God feels about me because I already know that He loves me and has given me His favor in Christ because I've understood the distinction between the gospel and the law.

48:29

And so now I can really, really go in and do the hard work individually and collectively with my brothers and sisters in the church because we're clear on the law and the gospel.

48:41

Yeah, that's very helpful. Another thing that I was thinking about as you were describing that is how sometimes when people ground their assurance in their measure of sanctification, they're looking to their works because they'll say, it's not my works, it's

48:57

God working in me. And so they'll say, so I'm not looking to my own works of the law.

49:03

I'm looking to God's works through me, the fruits of the spirit to ground my assurance.

49:10

And that's why I think it's so helpful. In chapter 11, the chapter on justification in the Second Lenten Confession says in article one, paragraph one, those whom

49:19

God effectually calleth, he also freely justifieth, not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous, not for anything wrought in them.

49:32

And I think that's a very important thing for us to mention too as well here as we kind of wrap up is when we say, do not ground your assurance in your own works, but look to Christ and the works of Christ.

49:46

We're not saying look to God's works in you. We're not saying look to your experience with yourself and what

49:57

God is doing in your life. We're actually saying, no, look to Christ and his historical accomplishment of redemption because you're not accepted before God and the gospel doesn't reach you and come to you in virtue of anything wrought in you, of anything worked in you by the

50:15

Holy Spirit. So I think that's an important qualification.

50:22

Guys, is there anything else you guys want to add to this conversation before we kind of wrap things up here?

50:28

Yeah, this conversation is somehow always gets twisted on its head as if we're trying to get out from underneath holiness and having to live a holy life and that we're just a let go and let

50:39

God, and that is the farthest thing from the truth. I want to make it very clear, anybody that's listening to this, with all the vigor and passion and love you have for Christ, we want to go live for him.

50:50

We want to, we want that for you. That's what we're called to rebuke, exhort, reprove people to do so, but you will not have any capacity to do so unless you do it in the power of Christ, right?

51:04

So this is why we don't offer you law and legalism and self -help effort. Colossians, at the end of chapter two, it says, this has an appearance of wisdom, but it's of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.

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Look unto Jesus. So if you want to know how it is to live for Christ, you want to hear of Christ and his power and his work on your behalf, and then you're going to walk by faith in the spirit, trusting in that and watching his good fruit work within you.

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But to yell at people to produce fruit and work harder at it will not cause that fruit to come forth.

51:37

It just does not work. Why do we say that? Because, well, people have been trying it for hundreds, if not thousands of years, and it doesn't work.

51:45

I think my final sign -off, and it would be simple, Christ for pardon and Christ for power unto sanctification.

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That's a word for preachers out there, but that's a word to all of us as members of churches and in thinking about our own

52:03

Christian lives, that it's not just Christ for my forgiveness and Christ for my justification, even, and the declaration of my righteousness in terms of my position, but it's

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Christ for power unto godliness, and that through my union with him, the Lord will do this thing, and that he who called me is faithful, and he will surely do it.

52:23

Man, thanks, guys. I really appreciate it, John and Justin, for you guys coming on and walking through this very important topic, the law and gospel and sanctification is very important.

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We get the law and gospel distinction right. It's very important that we get sanctification, our understanding of it right.

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All sorts of issues erupt as a result of tangling these things, and we want

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Christians to have comfort in Christ, and therefore, to have the gratitude to walk in obedience in the light of Christ in a true and genuine way.

53:00

Again, guys, thank you so much. I'll go ahead and tie it up here. If you have benefited from this episode, then probably someone else will as well, so consider sharing this.

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If you haven't subscribed to the channel yet, go ahead and do so by clicking the red button below and the bell for continued notifications.

53:21

God bless you guys. John, Justin, thanks a lot. We'll see you later. Thanks, Sean.

53:28

Great to be with you, man. Hey, everyone, before you go, Justin and I first wanted to say thank you, and if this has been encouraging to you in any way, please feel free to share it, but we also need your support, and it's when you give that it really helps us financially reach more people.

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