Law, Gospel, and Sanctification w/ The Baptist Broadcast | Theocast

When you look at your life and you consider your sanctification, does that ever leave you to despair and

think that there's no way that you could be God's child?

If that's you, today's episode is for you.

We're gonna have a conversation today about the law and the gospel and how that relates to sanctification and

we have the privilege of having this conversation, John and I, with a friend of ours named Josh Sommer who hosts a podcast

called The Baptist Broadcast.

And so the three of us talk about this most important issue and how the

gospel and the law are both used of God in the transformation of our lives and

are used of God in the transformation of our lives in a way that gives peace and assurance and rest.

We hope this encourages you.

Stay tuned.

Before we jump into the podcast, we want to tell you about a really important announcement.

We're doing a one -day conference on suffering and the return of Christ.

It's gonna be January 18th, 2024 in Escondido, California.

And we're gonna be doing it with the Bounding Grace Radio with the host Chris Gordon.

And we're gonna be hosting it at his church, which is Escondido United Reformed Church.

We're gonna be having four sessions, gonna start in the morning, Thursday morning at 10 a .m.

And we're gonna go all the way through the evening and we're gonna have a special guest with us that evening, Dr. Bob Godfrey, who's gonna be

joining us in a panel as we discuss the importance of suffering and eschatology and why our

eschatology matters.

Please go and register.

It's gonna be January 18th in Escondido, California, and we look forward to seeing you there.

All right.

Well, welcome to The Baptist Broadcast.

I have, as you can see, two special guests.

If you're watching on YouTube, of course, if you're listening, you can't see anything, but you will be able to hear

pretty soon.

I've got John Moffitt and Justin Perdue.

You know, guys, there are three J names here right now.

And that gets a little bit confusing.

John Moffitt and Justin Perdue with Theocast.

Guys, I appreciate you coming on.

It's good to have you.

I'm excited to talk about what we're gonna talk about today.

Let's do this.

Calling us special guests, man.

That's debatable.

That's right.

Yeah.

Well, don't get a big head over it.

We'll try to...

I don't think we do.

So we've got very important things to talk about today.

And with the potential of, you know, going off on rabbit trails and latching on

to some associated topics, we're gonna try our

hardest to stay with sanctification, specifically as sanctification

relates to the law and the gospel.

And of course, if you listen to Theocast, you know that these guys are heavily interested, rightfully

so, in the law gospel distinction, understanding the law, proclaiming the law, unvarnished,

and also proclaiming the gospel, the true gospel, unmixed and untainted with man's

works.

And so this is a very important topic, especially as we get to

sanctification.

I was talking to Justin, and we were talking about how there are,

you know, articulations, ways of describing sanctification that almost border

on suggesting that when we get to sanctification, when we're talking about sanctification, we kind of leave the gospel

behind and we move on to our works and our deeds, and we kind of take it from there, almost this

synergistic, semi -Pelagian way of thinking about the order of

salvation.

And I think that's a mistake.

I think our works are involved, but we have to see the gospel as a foundation and the fountainhead for

our sanctification.

Before we get started, if we have listeners that do not listen to Theocast, maybe they're

new even to my podcast, and maybe they're new to the law gospel distinction.

What's this language about law and gospel?

I thought the two were friends, not opposed to one another.

Why are you guys talking about it like it's two different things and pitting them against one another?

Maybe we could just talk about, for a little bit, the difference between the law gospel.

What is the law gospel distinction?

And I'll just throw it to you guys and let you guys kind of articulate that

and bring that out for the listeners.

What's the law gospel distinction?

Go ahead, Justin.

The law and the gospel are not.

In any way opposed to each other.

I want to be really clear about that.

They are complementary with an E in God's economy of salvation.

He has given his two words in the Scripture, his word of law and his word of gospel, and they are used by him

to save all of his people.

Simple ways to think about this.

Whenever in the Scriptures, Old or New Testament, whenever we read of what God requires

for righteousness in terms of what we are to do in order to be righteous in God's sight, that is law.

And whenever we read of what Christ has done that is given to us by

God in his grace received by faith, that's gospel.

So, do or do this and live is law.

That's the law as a covenant of works.

You will be saved by what you do effectively.

If you do these things well enough, you will have life.

Do this and live.

That's law.

Christ has done it.

Receive what he has done and live in him.

That's gospel.

And if I'm going to put it in a maybe provocative way, the law demands

everything and gives nothing, whereas the gospel demands

nothing and gives everything.

That sounds very uncomfortable to many evangelicals today because it

sounds like, oh guys, that could lead into all kinds of things, which we're going to talk about the law and gospel and sanctification.

But effectively, do is law, done is gospel.

We see both of these things revealed in the Old and New Testaments.

And in terms of the law as a covenant of works, we have no ability as fallen sinners

in Adam to keep it unto righteousness.

And so, we therefore are driven to Christ alone, who has kept the law in our place as our representative, which

I'm sure we'll get into more in a moment.

But that's how I would begin to talk about the distinction between the two.

Yeah, that's good.

John, please feel free to add anything you want.

Yeah, just jump in anytime.

Cut me off if you have something to say or you've had a thought.

No, I think that's a great definition.

I don't really have anything to add to that.

So, we can start the conversation where it gets spicy.

Yeah, I was just going to say, I've tried to encourage saints at the church

I serve by saying something like, the gospel is what God

does for us, full stop.

You put a period there.

Josh, if I may jump in and say, the gospel contains nothing in it whatsoever that we are to do.

The gospel is solely the message of what Christ has done.

Hence, you get this language.

In Lloyd -Jones, I think it was him who said, and I think there have been others, maybe Spurgeon and some others who

have said, you know, when you preach the gospel, you should be mistaken as an antinomian.

The reason is because you're omitting your works, and

you're taking the spotlight off of yourself, and you're throwing it completely on Christ.

Without an understanding of the law gospel distinction, someone might jump to the conclusion that that is

antinomian.

Where's the law?

Where's your duty?

Where's your response?

There's a distinction that I'm

starting to make in this conversation that I think is important.

This is the part that people miss often.

There's a natural and supernatural side to these.

The law speaks to the natural side of the flesh, where it basically tells the flesh what it must and must not do.

The gospel is not also natural.

That's how we treat it, though, as if there's something in the gospel that the flesh then must participate in as well.

We'll call it repentance, but that's not the gospel.

The gospel is described by Paul as, we don't like this word, but it's what it is.

It's magical power.

He literally says, the gospel is the power of God.

How do you describe that?

There is nothing else on earth that can be described as God's power.

Nothing.

There are these words.

When you put them together and you use those words, then there's a supernatural

nature to them.

That's what we're trying to defend and protect.

When these words are proclaimed to a sinner, they literally take them from death to

life.

It's a declaration of truth.

Because of that truth, it's not just like, oh, these are true statements.

These acts happened.

Christ became a man.

The Messiah became a man.

He lived for us.

He died for us.

He rose and now intercedes for us.

That's the gospel.

When you proclaim that to a dead person, that not only brings them to life, but it sustains

them unto eternity.

We're talking about natural versus supernatural because the law is literally a set of rules describing

how God expects the world to function in his creation.

The gospel is the good news for those who cannot make that happen.

It's natural versus supernatural.

What happens when there's a law gospel collapsing, it literally removes the supernatural side of it.

It basically says that the gospel is the good news that if you do your part, then God will do his.

We rejoice in the fact that the gospel is done.

Jesus has finished the work.

If I can interject really quick on the natural -supernatural dynamic, I think we're going to talk about the

law and the gospel and sanctification on this show.

A lot of the confusion that arises over sanctification is a result of confusing the

natural and supernatural pieces of what John just said.

How often do we hear the objection that you can't tell people that everything is finished

or they will not be motivated to pursue obedience?

You cannot tell people that Christ has done it all and that redemption is over because then there

won't be any skin in the game and people won't give a rip about holiness.

That would be true if this was a natural process.

If even sanctification was a natural process, you might be on to something.

But last time we checked, this is a supernatural reality.

It's the work of God.

The preaching of the utter sufficiency of Christ actually empowers sanctification.

It fuels and propels it rather than being an obstacle and a hindrance to it.

We're going to beat that drum until the day that we die and keep heralding that from the rooftops, but I will leave it there for now.

I'm sure we're going to get into the details and some of how this works.

Here in the next few moments.

What you guys are describing is the difference between just behavioral modification and true

evangelical sanctification.

In the legalist circles, all you have is

an external behavioral modification.

If you behave this certain way, therefore it means you're more Christian and you're more holy

than if you don't.

It's all externals.

Whereas true sanctification, we're looking to Christ and then Christ through His Spirit

works in us to produce a true obedience from the heart.

That's excellent.

Excellent distinctions, guys.

I really appreciate that.

I think that'll be clarifying for the listeners as well.

That's the law gospel distinction in a nutshell.

A good resource, by the way, would be John Calhoun's treatise on law and gospel.

That's a resource that has been helpful for me.

It's an excellent one.

Those who are listening, tuning in, check that out.

Let's move on to sanctification because this is an episode where I want to focus on the law gospel distinction

as it relates to sanctification.

When we say sanctification, and we just kind of touched on this just now, when we say

sanctification, what do we mean?

The doctrine of sanctification, what is that?

Maybe we could break that down.

Often in Scripture, I find this happens quite a bit where we

take an English word and we'll use it all over the place.

Because of that, it loses its original meanings or how it's intended to be meant.

I said this on Sunday.

The word awful used to mean, in its original form, to

be in awe of.

I looked at my wife on Sunday morning right when she got rolled out of bed and I said, you look awful.

She said, really?

But that's not what it means.

With the word sanctification, I find that this is true.

When you say the word sanctification, there's a clustering, a mixing of things that are happening.

The word sanctify means to be set apart.

There are times, Josh and Justin, that we are called to be setting ourselves apart from the

world.

We are to sanctify ourselves.

We're not to act immoral like we used to.

We're not to be dishonest.

These are parts where we used to be.

Ephesians 2 says, you once did this, but now you're going to stop doing that.

That is a setting apart for the sake of.

We would agree with that.

That word sanctification could be confusing because we would then assume that all sanctification

means that, but that's not necessarily the truth.

When it talks about a work of the Spirit, what it's talking about is how the Spirit comes.

I'm sure we can use a lot of verses here in a minute.

He who began a good work in you will complete it.

As Paul says to the Galatians, how did you begin?

Which is by faith.

This is how you're going to continue.

We are brought from death to life by the power of the Spirit.

When the Spirit comes to live within us, He continues that work of increasing our faith and

trust in Christ, which then gives us the capacity to repent and resist temptation.

That power comes from Christ, and it comes through the work of the Holy Spirit.

We would say that our way in which we come to life, which is through the gospel, our salvation, is a work of the

Spirit.

We would also say that our work of sanctification, meaning that there's an

ongoing process where we are changing our hearts and our desires into

a reflection of Christ, would also be a work of the Spirit.

The way in which it's often described is that you have been sanctified, you are being sanctified, and you will be sanctified.

There's a final stage when the process of sanctification is all over and we are fully glorified.

That definition of sanctification can often be confused because of how the word is used.

Justin Perdue.

Yeah, John.

The sanctification of the believer is effectively the ongoing transformation of our lives.

It's the inward renewal that is the work of God's Spirit in and through us.

I think this distinction is important.

When we are justified, that is to be forgiven of sin and declared righteous in the sight of God.

That is something that happens.

It's a very punctiliar thing.

Upon being united to Christ, we are justified, and that is definitively done.

To be presently justified is to be finally saved, and it guarantees that we will be glorified.

Between our point of justification and our death and then bodily resurrection or the return of

Christ, there is the ongoing transformation and renewal of our inner man, and that is the

process of sanctification.

A brief comment on this that I think does matter, and this is something that I think for me has become

increasingly clear in recent years, is that we as Christians are sinner saints.

We have a regenerate part of us, the new nature, and then we also have the old

man, the flesh.

We have both.

We carry the corpse of the old man around with us.

We drag it around, and like Martin Luther said, the dead man floats.

This is our experience, that sinner -saint reality.

We have to understand that the flesh, in terms of the body of death, is not

actually made holy.

The flesh is not sanctified.

It is actually our inner man.

It's the regenerate part of us that is transformed and made increasingly holy.

That will affect how we then live and think and go about doing things in this world,

but the flesh will actually not be sanctified and made holy until the return of Christ and then our

bodily resurrection.

I think that's going to.

Be important for us as we have this conversation about sanctification.

That is an excellent clarifying point.

Getting to the doctrine of repentance, it seems like sometimes the

ways in which the doctrine of repentance is described is a journey toward perfectionism.

If you just repent enough, you'll eventually be rid of all of these

bosom sins or whatever it is that you're dealing with.

I think that's a really good clarification.

Let's now bring these concepts together and talk about the doctrine of sanctification in relationship

to the gospel.

When we're talking about, let's say for example, the process of sanctification, I think a lot of people

think in terms of the process of sanctification, which is an effect of the gospel, or we might be able to

say it's an outworking of regeneration and so on.

In what sense is

sanctification given freely in the gospel?

Because again, if we're dealing with those who make the assumption that sanctification

is the area where you leave the gospel behind, we want to bring that together.

We want to bring sanctification in relation to the gospel.

In what sense is sanctification given freely.

In the gospel?

My mind immediately goes to Romans chapter six to begin this conversation.

Many know how that chapter starts.

Paul had just been talking about the imputation of the righteousness of Christ, that just as Adam's sin and

guilt had been counted to us, so the righteousness of Christ is counted to us by faith, and we will reign in eternal life

on account of Christ.

Then he even goes so far as to say that where sin abounded, the grace of God in Christ abounded all

the more, and this again leads to our reigning with Christ forever.

Then he anticipates an objection Paul does in Romans 6, 1 and following.

What should we say then?

Should we just go on in sin that grace may abound?

He says, by no means, but then notice how he doesn't respond.

He doesn't say, by no means, here is what the law says.

He doesn't say, by no means, if you are a legitimate Christian and would prove yourself

to not be a faker, here is how you'll live.

He says, by no means, for we have been united to Christ.

We have been baptized into the Lord Jesus.

Then he makes an argument that we have been justified from sin's guilt, and we are now to

reckon ourselves, to consider ourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Then he tells us that we are freed thereby from the dominion and the tyranny of sin.

Then in verse 17, we have become obedient from the heart.

In that regard, our union with Christ, because what is the gospel other than

Christ for us?

To be united to Jesus by faith, he becomes our representative, and through our vital union with

him, everything that's his is ours.

We would say this.

Jesus is the fountainhead of holiness, and Jesus is the fountainhead of

sanctification.

Through our union with him, those streamwaters, those floodwaters of sanctification and holiness

begin to flow.

When those waters are still flowing and they never dry up, sanctification will occur.

That's how our union with Christ and our faith in the Lord Jesus, walking and living in

him, abiding in him, will necessarily result in the transformation of our man.

It is given to us in the gospel, and I don't know how many Christians have ever heard somebody say that, that your sanctification

is certain because of your union with Christ.

My final kind of put a bow on this, if I'm going to summarize it in a sentence.

The sanctification of believers rests on the same foundation and

comes from the same source as their justification, namely, union with Jesus

Christ.

That's how sanctification is given to us.

It's a gift of God to us in the gospel as we receive Christ by faith.

Justin Perdue I would add to that,.

2 Peter, he just encapsulates this so beautifully.

2 Peter 1 .3, his divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to

life and godliness through the knowledge of him who called

us to his own glory and excellence.

You have to ask yourself, by whose power do we pursue godliness?

Peter is not even ashamed of it.

I love this because he says a lot of things after that, but in verse 5, he says, for

this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue.

Because of his divine power that lives within you, you can pursue godliness.

I love this about the new covenant that comes to us from Jeremiah and Ezekiel, but he says, I will put

my words in you and I will cause you to walk in my statues.

I being the source.

One last verse, Ephesians 6, when he says, you wrestle not against

flesh and blood, but against principalities and all of this scary stuff.

What does he say to stand?

Stand in the strength of the Lord.

It's God's power being implanted in us by the means of the Spirit.

That's where we stand while we pursue godliness, knowing that the source behind that

is not our discipline, but the source behind that is a divine power.

Even that Ephesians 6.

Reality of the armor of God, we've talked about this before.

To put on the armor of God, or even in the language of Romans 13, that we

put on the Lord Jesus Christ and make no provision for the flesh.

To put on the armor of God is to put on Christ.

It is to behold him and apprehend him.

We're talking about helmets of salvation and breastplates of righteousness, but dear saint out there, I promise you that's not your

righteousness.

That is Christ for us.

Even in that regard, where do we stand?

We stand in Christ as we live this Christian life.

Justin, you were mentioning that it goes right along with bringing union with Christ as really the

touchstone of everything.

Putting on Christ gives that connotation, but also 1

Corinthians 1 .30 -31, it's like, but of him

we were in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God and righteousness and

sanctification and redemption.

As it is written, he who glories, let him glory in the Lord.

There's definitely union with Christ.

They are in Christ.

It's like that Ephesians chapter one, in him he chose you before the

foundation of the world.

Then you're mentioning Jeremiah, the enunciation of the new covenant,

where God says, I will put my laws in their mind and write them on their hearts, and

I will be their God and they shall be my people.

What the covenant of works demands as law uncompromisingly

and without giving what it takes to actually meet those demands, the covenant of grace supplies

what it takes to walk according to the law of God.

That ties into the nature of sanctification and all of that.

Hey guys, real quick, some of you are listening to this and it's encouraging to you, but you have questions.

So where do you go?

How do you interact with other people who have the same questions and share resources?

We have started something called the Theocast Community, and we're excited because not only is it a place for you to connect with other like

-minded believers, all of our resources there, past podcasts, education materials, articles, all of it's there,

and you can share it and ask questions.

You can go check it out.

The link is in the description below.

I agree with your citation of 1 Corinthians 1.

I don't know how many Christians think that Christ is their sanctification.

Yeah, He's my righteousness and my justification, my redemption, He's my salvation.

People say that, but then it's as though we unhitch the sanctification piece from the wagon

when it comes to our transformation of life.

We don't necessarily think that Christ is our sanctification in that through union with Him and through beholding

Him and apprehending Him, our lives are changed.

I know that we don't need to name names or anything like that, but there was a relatively well -known

theologian in the last couple of years who made a statement that justification is just paperwork in heaven but that it will

not do anything to change your life.

I think that's a giveaway as to the problem that exists here because to act

as though justification is merely a forensic category or a forensic idea

but it has no transformative power is not biblical and is so unhelpful.

Actually, speaking from the historical reform tradition, from that perspective, to see

sanctification occur, you better preach Christ.

You better emphasize Jesus for sinners and herald justification through union with Christ if we

want to see saints' lives changed.

That is a piece of why Theocast exists, and I'm so thankful for this

conversation today because more saints need to hear this.

Their union with Christ and the fact that they have been brought from death to life in the Lord Jesus

Christ has everything to do with their transformation of life even now.

Jon Moffitt.

I didn't mean to jump in and quote Hebrews 12.

It literally says to look unto Jesus, the author and finisher of your faith.

As you look to Jesus, you set aside the sanctification process.

You set aside the weight and the sin that easily besets us.

It's not looking to yourself.

It's not fear.

It's not judgment.

It's not self -discipline.

You're looking unto Christ.

If you're not offering the sinners Christ week in and week out, then they're not going to have a reason to

lay aside their weight and their sin because they're going to be trapped in it, trying to do it in their own strength.

Jon Moffitt.

We've related sanctification to the gospel.

Let's bring the law into the equation.

When we talk about the law, we're typically referencing the moral law.

We're not talking about the ceremonial or the civil law in the Old Testament, but the moral law of God.

How does that law interact or interface with sanctification?

In other words, if I'm a Christian being sanctified, what do I have to do with the law?

David Gardner.

We don't have all wisdom.

As humans, we like to think we know all things, but we don't.

There's much about God that is a mystery to us.

In His kindness and His graciousness, God provides for us a reflection of what is good and holy and

right.

Therefore, we love that part of the law.

For the glory of His name and for the good of

our neighbor, we want to do that which is guaranteed by God.

This is what's loving.

This is what's kind.

This is what a reflection of holiness looks like.

For those of us who live in the love of God under the gospel, the law becomes just

a sweetness to us because we want to be guided by it.

We know the bent of our flesh.

Our bent of our flesh is to rebel against the Father.

We need the gospel to remind us not to do that.

Then the law comes in and it guides us in such a way where there could be confusion.

At times, our heart and mind do become confused.

What is the right thing to do here?

The law steps in and says, dear child, here's the right thing to do.

We're like, thank you for that guidance because this was a little confusing.

We don't hate the law.

The law becomes a way for us while we still live in unglorified bodies.

The law becomes a way for us to effectively live for the King and love and care for one.

Another.

Justin Perdue.

My short response to how does the law relate or how does sanctification relate to God's law?

The law of God guides our sanctification.

It's important to distinguish this that the law cannot empower sanctification, but it does guide it.

Just like when it comes to justification on the front end, we would say that the law cannot give life.

It can only kill.

Well, so it is in sanctification.

The law cannot transform.

It can only guide, but it's a useful guide, and we need the guide.

I also would want to say this.

Inevitably, to talk about sanctification in the law, we've got to get into the historical categories of uses of the law.

In particular, I think to talk about the first and the third use, as they're historically referred to, the first and greatest use of

the law is to show us our sin and drive us to Christ who kept it for us.

It's the mirror, so to speak, where I evaluate myself in light of the law and see how far short I

fall, and thereby I'm undone.

I am despairing of my own righteousness and casting myself on Christ and receiving his righteousness.

That's the first use of the law.

But then the third use is to guide our living in the Lord Jesus.

The law doesn't condemn us.

It doesn't threaten us.

It's not scary anymore.

We actually delight in it in our inner man now because we've been born again, and we seek conformity

unto it by the power of the Spirit, the Spirit of Christ working in and through us.

Now, I would say that the first and third use are useful for the Christian in sanctification.

The third use, I trust, is clear.

It guides our lives.

How do we know what righteousness looks like?

We look to the law.

How do I know what's good for my neighbor?

I look to the law.

How do I know what's going to wreck my life and hurt my neighbor?

I also look to the law.

But then the first use of the law, that crushing me and killing self -righteousness and driving me to

Christ, that piece is actually useful too in my sanctification.

Week over week, I know in my own congregation, I want to be super clear, not just to the unbelievers who may be visiting, but to the

members of our church.

Yet again this week, lest we get it twisted, we have no righteousness of our own.

We have not kept the law, and we are coming here with a collective sense of our need of Christ and casting ourselves

upon him because he is the one who has kept it, and he is our righteousness.

What does that do?

It continues to humble us.

It continues to show us our need of Christ.

It continues to remind us of how dependent we are upon the Lord for grace and how dependent upon Christ we

are for righteousness in our standing.

That is used of the Lord to fuel our sanctification as well as we look to the law as our good guide for living

in the Lord Jesus Christ.

We love the law.

Like you said earlier, dude, oftentimes you distinguish between the law and the gospel, and people call you an antinomian.

Far from it.

Distinguishing between the law and the gospel helps us use the law rightly and actually helps us as Christians to

love the law.

More.

The law -gospel distinction is a way to protect both, whereas legalism or

something like neonomianism or something like that actually steps down the law

so that it can be more palatable to the flesh.

They are actually antinomian in that respect.

The legalist is an antinomian in that respect.

The law -gospel distinction helps us to understand that the law is uncompromising,

and the problem is not in the law.

It is in us, and therefore we need the gospel.

Then you have first and third uses of the law.

Josh, can I offer an illustration real quick?

What is interesting about the law is that if you just take modern -day laws,

for instance, what we have here in the United States, a rule written on a piece of paper

does not give me the capacity to then fulfill it.

We just do not think about it in that way.

That is exactly what the law of God is.

It is a written -down rule, but there is nothing within the rule that then gives the capacity for

one to then actually do what it commands you to do.

For instance, if you want to join the military, you have to actually do a fitness

test, and if you do not pass the fitness test, you cannot join the military.

In many ways, this is God's law to us.

It is like, here is what the fitness test is to be a spiritual being.

You are supposed to look at that and go, well, I cannot do that.

There is nothing in the law that then says, well, this is how it is done.

It does not say that.

It does not say, here is how it is to be done.

It says, here is what must be done.

We look at that and go, well, I cannot do that.

That is why the gospel has to come in.

Being able to identify that is so important because we are taught, here is what the law says and here is how to

do the law within the law.

There is no how in the law.

There is only must, and that is where the gospel comes in and says, this is how it is done in the power of the Spirit.

That is why we have to keep those two separate.

Jon Moffitt.

That is a very helpful illustration.

I just wanted to say one thing before we move on.

I think sometimes also it happens, and we talk about legalism and

antinomianism and how we could be mistaken for

antinomianism as we preach the gospel and herald the gospel.

I think also when you look in terms of more contemporary categories,

maybe some would mistake us as being adherents of New Covenant theology.

New Covenant theology is the belief that the law

is a unit in the Old Testament.

There is no tripartite distinction.

There is no civil, ceremonial, and moral.

With the passing of the Old Covenant is the passing of the law altogether.

Then we are under the law of Christ, which I would agree with the language of the law of Christ, while we

would differ in terms of what that is.

Some have accused them of being antinomian.

As we talk about the law and how we are no longer under the law but under grace, and as we talk about how we

need to derive our sanctification from the gospel, maybe some are thinking,

well, this just seems like a take on New Covenant theology.

It is not.

It is not.

This is a historical position grounded and rooted in scripture, but echoed

throughout the confessional literature of the Reformation and following onward.

There are some very important distinctions there to be made.

There is so much that could be said, and this is probably a separate episode in and of itself to talk about how the law and gospel distinction

is not inherently a take on New Covenant theology.

Just a brief word on this is to convey that that is not inherently true whatsoever.

When we are talking about the law and gospel distinction, we are talking about the distinction between the covenant of works and the covenant of

grace, effectively, which are historically covenantal categories.

They are not New Covenant theology categories.

That would be just one brief insertion there.

If anybody is having that kind of floating in their minds as an objection, not true,

because we are talking in historically covenantal categories on this show right now.

Yeah, I have heard that not in terms of an objection, but in terms of someone once said to me that it sounds

similar to New Covenant theology.

I had to qualify and clarify what I meant versus what someone who

adheres to New Covenant theology would mean.

I appreciate that input.

Let us talk about practical things, church issues.

Obviously, the three of us are pastors, and we have been ministering the

gospel for different amounts of time in different parts of the country.

We have probably all had different but principally similar experiences

dealing with lack of assurance in members at our churches,

people who struggle with finding their assurance in Christ versus trying to locate their assurance

in what they have done over the last week or whatever.

I think the rubber on that really hits the road when it comes to sanctification.

People looking to the measure of their sanctification and their place in that process

in order to glean their assurance can often be very destructive.

I am sure you guys have had experiences with that.

I have had experience with that.

Maybe we could speak a little bit to church issues and practical issues with regard to law,

gospel, and sanctification.

Could you imagine a parent who used their child's existence

in the family based upon performance?

What would we say to that parent?

This is horrible.

The child wakes up every day and just wonders, I do not know if I am going to be in this home anymore, or if this is

really my parents.

It is a horrendous thought.

What is interesting about this relationship that we enter into with the Father is that it is not transactional.

That is why law, gospel, and distinction matter.

The law is transactional.

You do your part and you gain the reward.

The gospel is that he did his part and you gain the reward.

The reward will not be removed because you are in his family by

adoption.

What I find repulsive is that people who have put their faith in Christ, who have embraced the gospel, but then

live the rest of their life wondering if it is true.

God never intended that.

There are passages that often preachers and Christians will use to

cast fear and doubt into the believer.

If you are in unrepentant sin and you are living in vulgarity of life, and you are claiming

that which is holy is sinful and that which is sinful is holy, you should question your salvation.

Shame on you.

These people have tender consciences and they hate their sin.

They are just wondering if God's gospel is sufficient for them.

According to Scripture, there should never be a doubt in our minds based upon God's

promises.

It is God's faithfulness to save his own, not your faithfulness to make

it to the end.

This is where it is so important that as you think about the message of the gospel, I think it is

interesting.

The first of humans to violate God, which is Adam and Eve, God meets

them first of all by killing animals to cover their shame.

He sheds blood to cover their shame and then immediately meets them with grace.

He says, I am going to fix this, but it is going to cost me my son.

Why would he change the way he interacts with Adam and Eve with anyone else?

That is ridiculous.

It is grace upon grace.

He separates our sin as far as the east is from the west.

He does not bring it back in.

Who can accuse us?

Our sanctification should be in light of that.

We are not sanctifying ourselves because we want to make sure we are.

Saved.

We sanctify ourselves because we are.

Justin Perdue.

I think whenever we are talking about law and gospel confusion and sanctification, we are

talking about bringing our works back into the equation somehow when

it comes to our standing and our peace before the Lord, now, or in the future.

This happens all the time.

Whenever you hear guys preach to Christians and it has this exacting, threatening tone of obey

or else, that edginess to it, that is an indication that the law and the gospel have

been collapsed.

When you hear people reason, kind of like what John just was talking about, here is how it often goes.

To collapse law and gospel means we are bringing works back into the equation.

Statements.

This is how a lot of people, I think, reason out.

They say, all right, if you are justified, you will do good works.

True.

If there are no good works, then you are not justified.

Also true.

Therefore, do good works to know you are justified.

False.

That is where the thing falls apart because we have collapsed categories and we have started to bring works

back in, not as a fruit, not as a necessary outflow of salvation already

received, but as a piece of our standing and our comfort and our

confidence before the Lord, now and in the future.

We have now woven works back into the fabric of salvation because we have collapsed the law and the gospel

rather than helping people understand that we live from our new identity and

live from our new status.

We are not chasing after something that we do not have already, but we are living like who we

are now through our union with the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is a far better way to exhort the saints.

I would argue that that is how the apostles write in the New Testament.

That is right.

When they exhort the saints to live godly lives, they do not ever hold it out like, oh, well, God is

going to drop the hammer on you.

They use the law in its first use, but when they talk about sanctification, they are saying to the saints,

put off the old man and put on the new man.

What is that?

Put on Christ.

Live in Him.

Live like who you are now.

This is who you used to be.

That is not who you are anymore.

Live like who you are now.

That is how the apostles write in all of the epistles.

That is the way that we as pastors should aim to preach and exhort our people when it

comes to their pursuit of godliness.

I have another thought, Josh, that is very different in its tone and emphasis whenever you want to hear it.

If you want to interact with what we have said up to now, please do, because this will be taking us in a slightly different direction.

I was just going to piggyback on what you guys have already said.

The most devastating aspect about what you

described, Justin, is that a person who begins to look

to what they have done for their assurance has shifted their

object of faith from Christ to them, to

themselves.

If you are grounding your assurance in yourself, then you are looking to yourself.

You are not looking to Christ.

That is a devastating, fatal mistake.

I am not saying that true believers cannot err in that way.

I think true believers err in that way all the time.

Should that be a prolonged practice?

That is right, including the three of us right now.

Yes, absolutely.

Should that be a prolonged practice that is not pastored in some way, it could have

devastating spiritual consequences.

I appreciate that.

Go ahead and take us off on the very different direction that you have for us, Justin.

I do not know that people think about.

This one.

I think the erosion of assurance, which we have already alluded to, is probably on the front of more people's minds when

it comes to law gospel confusion.

But if we collapse the law and the gospel and confuse those categories, we actually cut the law off at the

knees in terms of its usefulness to us in sanctification.

We actually hinder sanctification when we collapse the law and the gospel.

Law and gospel clarity fosters and promotes real

sanctification because we can actually engage with the law the way that we should.

If I think that a piece of my standing or a portion of my peace before the Lord or a part of

my final salvation is found in my law -keeping,

if I think that, then the way that I'm going to approach the law is very different than if I am convinced that

Christ has given me all of the righteousness that I will ever need and that I am safe and secure in Him.

Then I can engage the law and not soft -pedal it.

I don't need to massage my self -assessment when it comes to using the law to expose what's in my heart.

I can stare it in the face.

I can call it what it is.

I can now really assess my heart and mind in light of God's good, holy,

and just law, and my sanctification is aided because I have

law and gospel clarity.

I can ask, how am I really loving my neighbor?

How am I loving my spouse or my children?

Maybe to put more of a point on it, how am I working an angle and out for myself in this whole thing?

That's just one example.

I can really go in there.

I don't need to massage it and soft -pedal the law to make myself feel decent about how God feels about me because I already know

that He loves me and has given me His favor in Christ because I've understood the distinction between the

gospel and the law.

Now I can really go in and do the hard work individually and collectively with my brothers and

sisters in the church.

Because we're clear on the law and the gospel.

That's good.

Yeah, that's very helpful.

Another thing that I was thinking about as you were describing that is how sometimes

when people ground their assurance in their measure of sanctification, they're looking to their works because they'll say,

it's not my works, it's God working in me.

They'll say, I'm not looking to my works of the law, I'm looking to God's works through me, the fruits of the

Spirit, to ground my assurance.

That's why I think it's so helpful in chapter 11, the chapter on justification in the Second Lenten Confession

says in paragraph one, those whom God effectually calleth, he also freely justifieth,

not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins and by accounting and accepting their persons as

righteous, not for anything wrought in them.

I think that's a very important thing for us to mention too as well here as we wrap up.

When we say do not ground your assurance in your own works, but look to Christ and the works of Christ,

we're not saying look to God's works in you.

We're not saying look to your experience with yourself and what God is doing in your life.

We're actually saying no, look to Christ and his historical accomplishment of redemption

because you're not accepted before God and the gospel doesn't reach you and come to you in virtue

of anything wrought in you, of anything worked in you by the Holy Spirit.

I think that's an important qualification.

Is there anything else you guys want to add to this conversation before we wrap things up here?

This conversation somehow always gets twisted on its head as if we're trying to get out from underneath

holiness and having to live a holy life and that we're just a let go and let God.

That is the farthest thing from the truth.

I want to make it very clear to anybody who's listening to this, with all the vigor and passion and love you have for Christ,

we want to go live for him.

We want we want that for you.

That's what we're called to rebuke, exhort, reprove people to do so, but you will

not have any capacity to do so unless you do it in the power of Christ.

This is why we don't offer you law and legalism and self -help effort.

Colossians at the end of chapter two says this has an appearance of wisdom, but it's of no value in stopping the

indulgence of the flesh.

Look unto Jesus.

If you want to know how it is to live for Christ, you want to hear of Christ and his power and his work on your

behalf, and then you're going to walk by faith in the Spirit, trusting in that and

watching his good fruit work within you.

But to yell at people to produce fruit and work harder at it will not cause that fruit to come forth.

It just does not work.

Why do we say that?

Because people have been trying it for hundreds, if not thousands of.

Years, and it doesn't work.

Justin Perdue.

I think my final sign -off would be simple.

Christ for pardon and Christ for power unto sanctification.

That's a word for preachers out there, but that's a word to all of us as members of churches in

thinking about our own Christian lives.

It's not just Christ for my forgiveness and Christ for my justification, even in the declaration of my righteousness

in terms of my position, but it's Christ for power unto godliness and that through my union with him, the Lord will

do this thing and that he who called me is faithful.

Amen.

And he will surely do it.

Thanks guys.

I really appreciate it, John and Justin, for you guys coming on and walking through this

very important topic, the law and gospel and sanctification.

It's very important we get the law gospel distinction right.

It's very important that we get sanctification and our understanding of it right.

All sorts of issues erupt as a result of tangling these things, and we

want Christians to have comfort in Christ and therefore to have the gratitude to

walk in obedience in the light of Christ in a true and genuine way.

Again guys, thank you so much.

I'll go ahead and tie it up here.

If you have benefited from this episode, then probably someone else will as well, so consider

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God bless you guys.

John, Justin, thanks a lot.

We'll see you later.

Thanks Josh.

Great to be with you man.

Hey everyone, before you go, Justin and I first.

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