March 15, 2018 Show with David Ould on “The Transgender Controversy: The Response From The Sydney, Australian Anglicans” (Part 2)

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now, here's our host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity who are living on

the planet earth listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy

Thursday on this 15th day of March

2018, and we are going to be addressing

part two of an issue that we began yesterday, and that is

the transgender controversy, the response from the Sydney Australian Anglicans.

Once again, we have returning to our program for part two of this discussion, David Old, who

is Senior Associate Minister at St. John's Anglican Cathedral in Parramatta, Australia,

and it is an honor and privilege to welcome you back for part two of this very timely discussion, David

Old.

Hi, Chris, great to be with you.

We.

Were touch and go with the phones there for a minute, weren't we, but we're here, and we're.

Live.

Yeah, that's right, and live radio, you can't, you just can't beat live radio.

Too good, too good.

Well, I think what I'm going to do is before I even get some of your summary of yesterday's

program, because I think that will be important since I'm sure a lot of people are tuning in for the first time today, and they

haven't had the advantage of hearing part one of this program yesterday, but a very providential

thing occurred yesterday, very timely thing in regard to our topic.

Exercise guru Richard Simmons, according to Fox News, was ordered

to pay nearly $130 ,000 to the National Enquirer and Radar

Online after Simmons sued the two media outlets for running a series of articles

alleging he was transforming to becoming a woman.

Simmons, who is 69, was ordered by Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Gregory Kiosian

Friday to pay the media outlets' attorneys fees and American Media, their publisher,

the Los Angeles Times, reported.

The defendants sought $220 ,000 in a motion filled in January that Simmons'

lawyers dubbed a billing fiesta.

Simmons sued the media outlets in May for a series of articles they alleged the

fitness guru was transforming to become a woman.

He claimed that while he holds no personal ill feelings towards the transgender community,

the articles were false and defamatory to his character.

Simmons' lawyers argued that as a public figure he has a legal right to not be portrayed as

someone he is not.

However, Judge Gregory Kiosian ruled that alleging someone is

transgender is not necessarily defamatory.

Kiosian dismissed Simmons' case on September 1, 2017, and I

think that probably there's going to be an appeal

for this.

Yes, in fact, it says the Los Angeles Times reported that Simmons is appealing the dismissal motion.

This is a pretty scary thing in this world where someone else can determine

whether or not you are being defamed.

In fact, an officer of the court, a judge, can make a decision, a

ruling, as to whether or not you personally are being defamed just because he or she

may not think that the way you are being described is an insulting thing.

But if you could, David, explain to our listeners in

summary form what we addressed yesterday.

Tell us, first of all, about this report that was compiled by

the Sydney Australian Anglicans in regard to the transgender controversy, why it was

done, and the background from which this report is coming, because people

hearing this the first time may think, wrongly, that you and the Sydney Anglicans are

like many other Anglicans who not only find nothing wrong

with transgenderism or homosexuality or anything outside of

the confines of biblical marriage, but they may even ordain people who are either

transgendered or homosexual.

They may not realize there is a difference in regard to the Sydney Australian Anglicans.

So, if you could tell us about those things that I asked.

Sure,.

Thanks, Chris.

Maybe we'll start at the last point that you raised, the Sydney diocese of the Anglican Church of Australia.

So, we group ourselves into diocese geographical areas under a bishop, or in our case, under an

archbishop, because we're a large, large area.

The Sydney diocese is a fairly conservative diocese.

It's reformed.

A lot of your listeners, although they might not agree with our polity on some small matters, will probably find themselves very much at

home in many, if not most of our churches.

And there are a number of diocese in Australia that are like that, but obviously also a number of diocese that aren't, that are almost

the opposite.

So, given that, like in the States and elsewhere, there's been this increasing pressure on gender

identity questions, particularly working its way out in schools and workplaces and all

those kinds of things.

The synod, which is our annual parliament, the synod of the diocese asked our

social issues executive to prepare a report on gender identity and the beginning of a

response to what we were seeing around us.

Probably, I would say, even a couple of years late, but this is sort of snuck up on us.

Australia has been involved, as you guys have been in the same -sex marriage debate, and the transgender thing has rather

sort of snuck in on the blind side on that.

So, I was asked to be part of a subcommittee that put together this report.

So, it's myself and another clergyman in the diocese.

We were chaired by a lady called Dr. Claire Smith, who's a very, very sharp theologian

who's already done some work, theological work in this area.

We're also joined by two medical professionals, Dr. Megan Best, who is

a medical doctor and a researcher, has done a lot of work in

fields like palliative care and other places, and also a professor, Dr.

Patricia Weirakun, who is a sexologist.

So, she's a professor of sex and in the sense that she looks at the

physiological aspects and psychological aspects of sex.

So, what's going on in my brain during sex, and how is the brain shaped towards sex, and all

that kind of stuff.

She's written a number of books already on the topic.

So, we got together and we produced a report.

I think the link is on your website, Chris, and it's also on my own website.

It's one of those comprehensive, although I say it myself, one of the most comprehensive reports I've seen from any Anglican

body, let alone I think any Christian body.

It's not complete.

We point out that more work needs to be done, but it's a fairly comprehensive report.

We outline what we're talking about, what transgender is, what it's not.

We talk about the current context, or we actually start with the story of Bruce Jenner and talk through,

you know, why have we got to the point where someone like Germaine Greer is on the outside of this conversation?

I mean, how radical have we got that we got this far?

We then go through what we consider to be the biblical view of sex and gender, pointing out that God created us male and female.

We talk a bit about our embodiment as humans, that bodies are important.

We're not just, you know, souls floating around.

If we have a body, if we don't, it doesn't matter.

We actually deny that view.

We talk about what identity in Christ means.

So, we talk a little bit about justification and where that's coming from, talk a bit about what it means to live as a church.

We then move into some medical scientific stuff.

So, we talk about the etiology, that is the origins of transgender and gender dysphoria, and then we push

our way through what the various medical approaches are, what historically has been done,

what the current trends are, but most importantly, what the statistics show.

And the research shows us that with children and youth, the

most effective means of treating someone is what we call watch and wait.

But interestingly enough, when children present as transgender, if you just wait until they've gone through

puberty, almost 97 .5 of them will regress.

That is to say, they will just go back to what you and I would consider to be a normal view of their own gender.

And even then, that's a very small percentage of a very small percentage that will persist.

We talk through again about all the medical interventions you can do with teenagers.

And again, how that's not really helpful.

We go through the statistics on outcomes for adults as well.

And we point out that where transition does happen, Chris, there's no

statistically significant change to the rates of suicide and mental illness for transsexual people.

So I was going to say gentle, but it's not.

It's quite a firm pushback against some of the trends.

What we're trying to point out is that the shift in treatment and the shift in the way that this is viewed

is not based on science.

It's not based on research.

It's based on a philosophical shift, the one that we've already outlined.

And then we didn't get time to talk about it yesterday, but I'd probably have less interest to your readers.

But we work through what the law currently is in Australia.

There's a little bit of drawing from other jurisdictions, but we work that through and then come to some conclusions

and recommendations.

And really, what we're doing is we're trying to set out some basic policies and basic approaches that can then be

applied into various places.

And of course, like any big religious organization, we have schools, we have other

organizations where we need some clarity on how we're going to approach this topic.

And so we try and begin to provide that for our different organizations.

Now, was one of the reasons that the Sydney Australian Anglicans developed

this response or this report was to not only inform

the leaders of congregations and their congregants, but also perhaps even for legal

protection?

Tell us, what were the reasons?

Yeah, so look, I'm not a lawyer, and I don't speak as a lawyer or a spokesperson for the diocese.

But it seems to me for any organization where you're facing a new legal situation,

if you can have some general principles that your hierarchical structure has laid down,

and there's a sound and rational basis for them, then I think you're in a stronger

position.

So now we've got a whole bunch of schools, for example, who fall under the umbrella of the Sydney Anglican Diocese, who have a bunch of general

principles on which they can act the next time someone comes and says, yes, I might present as a

man, as a boy with an X and a Y chromosome, but actually, I want to be considered to be a girl.

And the parents go, we want them to be considered to be a girl.

That school, that principle of the school now has some very clear principles with a very

weighty argument lying behind them as to why he ought to approach that matter in a

certain way.

So yes, I suspect that that's going to be part of the application of.

What we've been doing.

Now, if I'm not mistaken, where we left off yesterday was, didn't we just begin to enter

into the area of the medical approach to gender.

Dysphoria?

Yeah, so we began to work through some of that, started to talk through some of the statistics.

It's a very rich part of our report.

It's full of references to a whole bunch of different bits of research and work that have been done.

The two medical professionals I mentioned to you before have done an incredible work

compiling those couple of chapters, where they've really gone

through a quite comprehensive outline of where the research actually is and what we actually do know.

And I think that for me personally, being part of this work was the most helpful section, even though it's

not the one that I wrote, because it actually made me go, do you know what?

The emperor's got no clothes on.

There are people out there pushing transition and pushing reassignment and pushing

re -identification.

But actually, the vast weight of the scientific evidence doesn't support that approach.

And so that's kind of where we left it.

And then we answered a few calls from your from your listeners.

But what we're trying to point out was, again, I think I've mentioned it before, but this is not this is not driven by science.

This is driven by political philosophical positions in the

social sciences academia, not in the medical sciences academia.

And actually, there are some prominent doctors in the field, one particular gentleman from

Johns Hopkins University and another gentleman, Dr. Kenneth

Zucker in Toronto, who have been hounded, hounded out, sorry, not

Zucker, my apologies, who have been hounded out of their of their jobs.

Yeah, so Zucker was he was actually fired for refusing to change his treatment in response to political pressure.

He just said, look, I've been doing this for years.

And this is what I found to be most effective.

Why would I change when what you're telling me to do just doesn't match the facts on the ground?

So it's very interesting, Chris, that means that when your readers, when your listeners, sorry, have people say to them, oh, but the research says,

but the latest academics say, the first question you've got to ask is, well, in what field of academics?

Are they social scientists writing about political theory?

Or are they actual medical researchers in the medical in the medical field?

And as it turns out, when you do the medical research, it just doesn't support transition as a healthy

way forward.

Yes, I mean, I don't know what happened in Australia, but I may have been a global

thing.

I'm not sure.

But here in the United States, historically,

homosexuality was all always considered.

And of course, this is before there was something that was called transgenderism.

Not that not that some kind of a phenomenon didn't exist, but it wasn't being called that and wasn't

being discussed as a separate issue.

But you know, as far back as psychology and psychiatry textbooks

have been in print, the issue of

homosexuality was regarded as a mental disorder.

And that vanished from the textbooks

here in the United States.

I believe sometime in the 1970s.

I don't have the date in front of me.

Perhaps you know.

Yeah, that's right.

Perhaps the best record of that is a book by a gentleman called Satanova,

Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth.

He quite brilliantly shows how that happened and what the influences were.

And yeah, he shows how the American Psychological Association basically changed its approach

with no change in the research.

And so now you've got a whole bunch of people who have massive correlations with other mental illnesses,

who are not getting the help often that they need and not even being allowed to now say,

well, I don't want to be this way.

So what's really interesting, we're getting the first wave here of pressure on therapies

for men and women who don't want to be same -sex attracted.

So it's not just that you can't force someone to change, which of course you can't.

That's wrong.

But it's now wrong, we're being told in Australia, for a psychologist, for a therapist to

even support someone in wanting to deal with their unwanted same -sex attraction.

That kind of stuff is quite shocking, isn't it?

A therapist's job is to support their client in the healthy transition that their client

wants to make.

And if a client comes in and says, I'm same -sex attracted and it is distressing me and I want to be rid of

it, a therapist's job, if they have integrity, is to say, yes, I will

help you work through why you don't want your same -sex attraction and what we can do about that.

Or, in good conscience, to say, no, I need to pass you to someone on who's more comfortable doing

that.

But they should have the right to support that person and the choice that person.

Makes about their sexuality.

Yeah, the thing that is so disturbing about this is that it is clear that a

leftist movement is forcing

those in the medical field, whether they be psychiatrists or otherwise, to

go along with a political agenda, regardless of what these doctors,

scientists, etc. believe to be true.

That's pretty scary when you have that kind of pressure upon physicians

and the scientific.

Absolutely.

Go ahead.

Let me read to you just a couple of.

Paragraphs from our report where we summarize this issue.

So I'm reading from section 148 of the report now.

We say this, the case for medical support of sex transitioning before adulthood is not

evidence -based and should not be supported by Christian health care providers.

This will put the Christian health care provider at odds with evolving views of gender identity in the current medical

culture.

However, there is scientific evidence that to avoid gender transition in the management of gender dysphoria is a reasonable

choice.

There is particularly good scientific evidence to reinforce the biological gender in young people, especially before

puberty.

Social pressure to impose a transgender ideology on those who do not support transitioning is unjust

and undemocratic, as well as threatening professional integrity.

The purpose of medicine is to heal the sick, not to collaborate with psychiatric disorders.

That's probably a key sentence there.

Interventions to alter normal sexual anatomy to conform to transgender desires are disruptive to health.

But that's the key issue, isn't it?

The purpose of medicine is to heal the.

Sick, not to collaborate with psychiatric disorders.

And I don't know if this is accurate, but I just found out on some site that it was

actually not until 1987 that

homosexuality was removed as a mental disorder from

the psychiatric textbooks, at least here in the United States.

I don't know if that reflects what you know about that issue.

I would have put it earlier myself, Chris, but.

Nevertheless, we are well into the period now where that is the way things are viewed.

And what America does, usually the Western world follows eventually.

So I'm looking forward to President Trump being elected here in Australia at some point.

That article may have been regard to the last remnant, perhaps, in 1987.

Yes, it could be.

It could be that kind of thing, yeah.

Well, let's go to some of our listener questions and let me

repeat our email address for any of you who would like to join us on the air

with a question of your own.

It's ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail

.com.

Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA.

And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

We have Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, who asks, how

can those who affirm the rights of not only adults but children

to change their genders, allegedly, through surgery and through

drugs, how can these people in any way oppose those who

desire to change what species they belong to, such as people who claim

they are certain types of animals?

And even there is one account, at least, of a person who had plastic surgery to

resemble a dragon.

So, basically, the person is saying, you know, where is this going to stop?

How can a person who affirms transgenderism as being completely acceptable,

how could they have any way, how can they have a leg to stand on to oppose anything else that someone comes

up with that they want to change about their identity or even what species they are?

Not that they could actually change their species and not that they could actually change their gender in spite of what these

folks who are in support of the LGBTQ community say, but

do you have any responses to that?

Are you there, David?

Hello, David.

I'm sorry, Chris, I had my microphone muted.

I'm back on now.

Hello, Harrison and Fredericksburg, a beautiful town.

We drove through.

There about five or six years ago.

Actually, he's in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania.

Mechanicsburg,.

So you have some great -named towns there.

It's a rhetorical question, so it's a little bit hard to answer, but in terms of the general principles that are being

raised, I think consistently they can't oppose it.

It really comes back to this queering principle that we talked about yesterday.

We said that underlying all of this is what we call the queering principle, which is the

deconstruction of set constructs.

The Christian and actually the conservative modernist, so you don't have to be a Christian to believe this,

but the Christian knows that God has made the world in a certain way with certain structures.

One of the most fundamental structures in creation is actually the male -female binary in

humanity.

As you read the creation narrative in Genesis 1, no matter how you read it, whether

you read it as a literal narrative or you read it as something slightly more poetic and symbolic—I'm

not entering into that debate now, Chris—but my point is whatever way you read it, it's very clear that

the male -female binary is embedded into creation, and creation is full of these

binaries, and so it's an inherent structure in the way the world is.

Now, we walk around saying that there are just inherent structures that are the way that the world is.

A man marries a woman, they have kids, you know, you have authority structures in

your government and all that kind of stuff, and these things are inherent to the way things are.

They're not just fabricated, they're not just made up, but the queerists, the

social Marxists will say, no, no, no, they're all artificial, and even the notion of male and

femaleness is artificial.

To put it crudely, and we say this in the report, a man doesn't necessarily have a penis, and to have a

penis doesn't necessarily make you be a man.

Now, at this point, my brain just explodes and just goes, that's ludicrous, but until you get your head

around where they're coming from, you'll never be able to respond to it properly, and so there's this great deconstruction going on.

Why is that?

Well, I was actually chatting to a politician here in Australia yesterday afternoon about it.

It's because we've become so self -centered.

We have this postmodern world, don't we, where if we lose these external frameworks, the only frame of reference that I have to

understand the world is just myself and my own perceptions, so how I understand the world and how I understand

myself becomes the truth.

So when someone says to you, ah, there's your truth and my truth, again, our mind bobbles and just goes, no, there's objective truth, but what

they're actually doing is they're saying, I have no frame of reference that I can appeal to other than

myself.

They actually don't know how to do it.

That's just how they are.

So yes, you have yourself as a frame of reference, and then you can decide to be who you want to be.

So if I'm a man that decides I actually am a woman, then I'm a woman, because that's the only frame of reference I have.

So therefore, if I'm a man who decides he's a dog, well, then I'm a dog.

And so consistently, yes, I think ultimately that's where you go.

I think, however, you get some pushback to that kind of rhetorical question where people would go, well, there's

a difference between a fluidity within humanity and a fluidity between all animals.

But it depends where you draw the line.

You've got to draw a line at some point.

When you draw the line, I'm always going to say, well, why are you drawing the line at that point and not at another point?

What's the basis on which you do so?

And I would guess the basis would be pretty inconsistent.

And as our mutually good friend Dr. James White.

Says, inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument.

Yes.

And of course, I know that you meant that it's absurd for someone without a

penis to say that they are a man.

I know that you did not mean by that that if somebody had a surgery because of cancer or something and they had to have.

Yeah, exactly.

Yes, of course not.

And because that person would be a man and perhaps even more of a man than

many people with genitalia.

Absolutely.

And I can tell you some stories of.

Men who have, if you like, who have manned up well in various very difficult circumstances.

Yes, it is.

And again, this is about it's a holistic thing, isn't it?

So what we're actually saying is God has created us holistically.

So I am a man and that is about my DNA.

It's about my physical created or the intended creation of who I am.

And so if something gets chopped off, I'm still a man because it's an intrinsic, holistic

whole of who I am.

But if my body doesn't matter, then it's all up for grabs.

Right.

And I am going to forward to you an email so you could read it during our first

station break.

And then we will have you respond to it when we return from the station break.

I'm sending it to the only email address I have for you.

So I'm assuming that you would know where to look.

I don't know if you have multiple email addresses or not.

They're all compiled in one mail reader address.

Okay.

Well, what I'm going to do is I'm going to read it out loud now and you can mull it over during the break.

And then I'll repeat it when we come back.

I normally do not read the entire name of someone writing in.

But this person, I think I should read his whole name because of his connection with

the Reformed Anglicans and so on and with his connection to ministry, pastoral ministry.

His name is Reverend Donald Philip Veitch.

And I could be mispronouncing his name.

I apologize, Reverend Donald, if I'm mispronouncing your last name.

He is a retired Marine Corps Navy chaplain and Reformed Anglican and prayer book churchman.

And he asks, David, could you please give us a quick thumbnail sketch of how the

Church of England and the Episcopal Church USA ever got into this mess?

The bishops, the seminaries, the doctrine of scripture, thumbnail sketch.

And he is from Jacksonville, North Carolina, in the Camp Lejeune area.

So you will have that in front of you in a matter of seconds.

And I will be going to a break right now.

If anybody else would like to join us on the air, our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

As always, please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the good old USA.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

I am Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, here to tell you about an exciting offer from World

Magazine, my trusted source for news from a Christian perspective.

Try World at no charge for 90 days and get a free copy of R .C. Sproul's book,

Relationship Between Church and State.

I rely on World because I trust the reporting.

I gain insight from the analysis, and World provides clarity to the news stories that really matter.

I believe you'll also find World to be an invaluable resource to better understand critical topics with a depth that's

simply not found in other media outlets.

Armed with this coverage, World can help you to be a voice of wisdom in your family and your community.

This trial includes bi -weekly issues of World Magazine, on -scene reporting from World Radio,

and the fully shareable content of World Digital.

Simply visit wng .org forward slash iron sharpens

to get your World Trial and Dr. Sproul's book all free.

No obligation with no credit card required.

Visit worldnewsgroup at wng .org forward

slash iron sharpens today.

Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko,.

Inviting you to tune in to a visit to the pastor's study every Saturday from 12 noon to 1

pm eastern time on WLIE radio, www

.wlie540am .com.

We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in

with your questions.

Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull.

Join us this Saturday at 12 noon eastern time for a visit to the pastor's study, because everyone needs

a pastor.

1 ,500 organization that helps their nearly 2 .4 million members to be wise with money.

They provide guidance that reflects your values, so you can protect what matters most.

They help members live generously and strengthen the communities where they live, work, and worship.

Learn more about the Thrivin story by contacting Michael Gallagher at 717

-254 -6433

at 717 -254 -6433.

Lending faith, finances, and generosity.

That's the Thrivin story.

Hi,

I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

I would like to introduce you to my good friends, Todd and Patty Jennings at CVBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley

Bible Book Service.

Todd and Patty specialize in supplying Reformed and Puritan books and Bibles at discount prices that make them

affordable to everyone.

Since 1987, the family owned and operated book service has sought to bring you the best available Christian books

and Bibles at the best possible prices.

Unlike other book sites, they make no effort to provide every book that is available because frankly, much of what

is being printed is not worth your time.

That means you can get to the good stuff faster.

It also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic, heretical, and

otherwise faith -insulting material promoted by the secular book vendors.

Their website is CVBBS .com.

Browse the pages at ease, shop at your leisure, and purchase with confidence as Todd and Patty work

in service to you, the church, and to Christ.

That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service at CVBBS .com.

That's CVBBS .com.

Let Todd and Patty.

Know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

And you can call CVBBS .com at their toll -free number 800 -656 -0231.

800 -656 -0231.

They man that phone line between 10 a .m. and 4 30 p .m. Eastern Time, Monday through Friday,

most of the time anyway.

So if you don't have an answer when you call, just call the next day or order online at CVBBS

.com.

Please mention that you heard about CVBBS .com from Chris Arnzen and Iron Sharpen's Iron

Radio.

They know that they have had a large turnaround for the better in their

sales because of the upswing

coinciding with the heavy push we've been giving them on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

So at least they're extremely confident that those sales are coming from our listeners.

But a lot of you are not telling them that.

Solid Ground Christian Books, my other client who advertises with us, is getting

reams and reams and reams of new business from our listeners who are telling them that

they are purchasing the books because of Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

So it's puzzling as to why CVBBS .com would not also be having the same

kind of information being given them from our listeners.

So please remember to tell Todd and Patty Jennings of CVBBS .com that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen

and Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

And if you purchase $50 or more worth of merchandise and mention Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio, you will get absolutely free of

charge the book by Sinclair Ferguson, Faithful God, an Exposition of the Book of Ruth.

That retails for $14.

You'll get it absolutely free of charge by mentioning Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

Well, we are now back.

This is part two of a discussion we began yesterday here on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the

transgender controversy, the response from the Sydney Australian Anglicans.

And our guest today to continue this topic is David Old, who is Senior Associate Minister at

St. John's Anglican Cathedral in Parramatta, Australia.

And we have, as I said before, before the break, we have a question

from Reverend Donald Philip Veitch, who is from Jacksonville, North

Carolina.

He's a retired Marine Corps and Navy chaplain and a Reformed Anglican and prayer book churchman.

And he said or asked, David, could you please give us a quick thumbnail sketch of how the Church of

England and the Episcopal Church USA ever got into this mess?

The bishops, the seminaries, the doctrine of scripture, thumbnail sketch.

Sure.

So he's rather set us up with the question.

Oh, hello.

Hello, Donald.

Thank you for your question.

Thank you for your service, ex -Marine chaplain.

Good on you, mate.

So how have we got in this mess?

Well, it's because things happen both officially and unofficially.

Officially, church hierarchies in whatever way your particular province is governed will

make certain decisions.

They'll affirm certain things.

They'll pass motions at synods and at councils.

But also what happens is that facts are allowed to be established on the ground.

So the way that the liberal progress always seems to happen in any denomination is by

a salami slice method.

So just a little bit at a time, just gently moving along.

There will be a change of theology in people's minds.

We'll come to why that is in a moment.

And then things start to be established on the ground.

You start to see things happening.

And those in the in the hierarchy then don't do anything about it because they are in some way

sympathetic or too cowardly to do anything about it.

And you build up a groundswell of things happening until it moves its way through the official

legislative channels for want of a better description.

And then you get a new doctrine or a new policy or a new approach.

Why do we end up there?

It's always the seminaries.

So remember, the seminaries are what is turning around men and

now women in many denominations into church leadership and into other roles in the church.

The seminaries are where they're learning their theology.

They're having certain things affirmed and certain things denied.

And so then you push people through a seminary.

Then a minister leads a congregation and he teaches.

And his congregation will be heavily

influenced by the teaching of the minister.

And Chris, I think the thing we've got to remember is most ministers, in various ways, love their people.

A lot of theologically liberal ministers love their people and they love them in the way that they understand they should love them.

So people always follow their leaders when they feel loved.

Most people in pastoral ministry love their people.

So people listen to their leaders.

And if the leader says, well, yes, we respect the Bible.

It's God's word through the people that were speaking there at the time.

And this didn't actually literally happen to Jesus.

But it's a helpful picture for us of what the people at the time believed.

And that's our best bet at what they knew.

And now, of course, the Holy Spirit helps us to see it just slightly differently.

Then if they're loved by this person and if they don't know any better, that's where they'll go.

And so then you raise another generation who then go through the seminaries affirming this stuff.

And it just gets diluted and diluted and diluted until you enter this point where it just seems natural, where you just get these

rampant heresies.

I mean, we've just got in the Brisbane diocese to the north of here, we've just got the archbishop affirming a priest who

has transitioned from male to female.

And he's written this ad clarem, and it's a pretty bland thing.

But the whole theology is, well, God made me this way.

I'm living into my true self, which is rampant, rampant heresy.

I mean, Augustine was dealing with this stuff with Pelagius in the fifth century.

We were nailing this stuff down.

No, you are not.

Everything that you are is not how God made you.

And yes, perhaps sin has ravaged us all in various ways so that we are incapable of being who we're

meant to be.

And it's just another form of Pelagianism.

And yet, if you're not aware of these things, if you don't have great confidence in the scripture as a word of God, as Jesus's word,

then you will wander away.

And we wander away because we give way to other influences.

And it's bad enough when the liberals around us just take over the establishment

and teach untruth.

It's really quite scary when our evangelical brothers and sisters

just start to dilute what they're saying.

They just go, oh, maybe there's another way of thinking about this.

They fear what other people would say about them.

They want to keep their superannuation and their pension schemes.

So they just knuckle down.

I got friends in the Church of England today saying, actually in the province of the Scottish Episcopal Church, one guy

yesterday was saying, look, I just, it's hard when the guys around me are just, some of them are just

caving in because you know what?

They've got five years to go to retirement.

And why would I compromise my pension?

Well, you know, I've got somewhere to live for five years.

I've got my health insurance.

I've sat in the United States with Episcopal Church ministers who, I know one

person in particular who had a family situation where if they did what they actually with integrity knew they had to do, which is to

leave the diocese, they would have lost health insurance for a sick family member.

And Chris, that's a huge, huge thing, right?

So, and all I could say is, look, it's easy for me because I'm just passing through, but do you love

Jesus?

And do you think he loves you enough just to say, no, enough, I'm standing up against this.

But almost in that sense, it was too late.

And the Anglican Church in America, of course, has formed a new province, the Anglican Church of North America, because they

just couldn't remain anymore.

And it's all because back in the 50s and the 60s, the seminaries introduced liberal theology, and nobody said

no.

So we have got to get in those seminaries, we've got to be leading the thrust on theological education, we've got to be

making sure we're teaching our people well.

I think it critically important, Chris, I really get quite worried when people walk out of church and they go,

wasn't that a great sermon, David's taught us, I really want them to go, oh, I can see now in the Bible that,

you know, I want people to say, David taught me to read the Bible, I can see how that is what the Bible says, so

that they can then reproduce what the Bible says, not what I said in a sermon on Sunday.

We all have a responsibility in our various places, where we're Christians, to ensure that

that's happening.

So much so that at Panamatic Cathedral, we're going to be teaching through to Timothy, after Easter, and thinking about what

it means to entrust a reliable man, the things that we have been taught ourselves, that didn't happen in the

Church of England, to some extent, and certainly in the Episcopal Church, USA, and the carnage all around us

now.

Is testimony to that.

So that's interesting, there was no pushback from Bible -believing

conservative Anglicans or Episcopalians when the seminaries turned around, unlike what

happened with the Presbyterians and other Reformed bodies when Princeton started to collapse.

Under the weight of leftism.

Yeah, so I wonder, I think it's easy, hindsight is a wonderful thing, isn't it, Chris?

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I think when it happens very slowly and incrementally, and you just get little shifts,

it's very hard to discern what's going on.

Afterwards, of course, you can see the downward slope, but at the time, I wonder, for some of them, it was just, oh yeah, this is a

new interesting way of looking at things.

And so Reformed seminaries will dabble, for example, with Karl Barth and Barthianism,

which I think can go in some really pretty unhelpful ways.

But at the same time, the stuff isn't there about the neo -Orthodox guys from the 20th century, but it's actually quite

fascinating and helpful.

So, for example, Karl Barth's absolute emphasis on Jesus as the center of his

theology is actually a very attractive thing, isn't it?

And there's something there.

But as one doctrine lecturer of mine at my own seminary said, it's a great train ride to be on.

You just need to get off way before the last station.

So the problem is, when you're on the train itself, it's harder to discern.

And so I want to have a little bit of sympathy for the guys.

However, what we do need to do actually now, however, is to be robust.

Where we see it happening around us today is to be very, very robust.

So one of the big questions for us as Anglicans is, who is funding the seminaries in the developing

world?

Unfortunately, the money.

And a lot of it is coming from New York and New York City.

And they are trying to literally buy their way into Africa.

And so one of the things we are working hard at is supporting and encouraging seminaries in Africa to

resist American money, and instead to link up with

people from other places.

And so my alma mater, Moore Theological College, and other places are working very hard to

build those relationships up.

When I was at a global conference of Anglicans about five years ago in Nairobi, and I'm going to another one

in June in Jerusalem, which I'm really looking forward to, a lot of the work we were doing was to get to know

people involved in theological education and to link up and introduce.

And it's not the most attractive kind of thing to be doing.

It would be nice to be hobnobbing with bishops and the rest of it, if that's your kind of thing.

But actually, fundamentally, if we want to get this right, if we want to learn from the past, we have to capture the seminaries,

hold on to them, and get the right men and women in there.

And when I say men and women in seminaries, again, I'm not trying to have a debate about that thing.

Take it up with John Piper.

Do you know what I mean?

Just speaking more generally, let's get in there.

Let's get the right people in.

Let's be teaching the right thing.

Let's not be being expedient.

Let's not be being pragmatic at this point.

Let's learn from the past.

The Episcopal Church has gone to the dogs, and that's okay.

I'll let them go, but we are not going to make that mistake again.

Yes, I cannot remember the last time I hobnobbed with a bishop.

Oh, Chris, you're missing out.

Being a Baptist, that would be a very rare thing to occur.

You know what, Chris?

With respect, Baptists have bishops as well.

You just don't call them that.

Yes, and in fact, it often baffles me why my brothers who are

King James -only Baptists rarely ever, in fact, almost never, I don't even know of one

King James -only Baptist pastor that refers to himself as a bishop, even though that's the word

used in the King James Bible.

Obviously, we use an elder and

deacon.

Elder and deacon are the only two offices in our book.

How interesting.

So you actually don't have an overseer office?

No, well, yes, we do.

An overseer is an elder, which is a pastor.

I mean, I'm talking about the vast majority of Reformed Baptists anyway.

We only have two offices, elder and deacon, and the elder is the same thing as an overseer, a

bishop, a pastor.

And you have some churches, Baptist churches in America at least, that have a hybrid office that's

not biblical, that their elders are really more like deacons, or their

deacons are really more like elders, or they have a board of trustees or something like that.

But anyway.

Interestingly enough, Chris, sorry to get distracted on this, a friend of mine who's researching 16th century Reformed

theology in England noted the other day that there were a couple of English

divines of the late 16th century who liked the title superintendent rather

than overseer because of the accretions that the word overseer had received.

So they now, from the continent, had picked up the term superintendent, but it rather died out

by 1600.

And it is interesting, it's an interesting phenomenon that here in America at least,

you would have, and I'm sure that the majority if not all African Americans in

ministry, regardless of what side they are on, whether they are liberal or more conservative or

Bible believing, most African American churches in the United

States would tend to lean more to the liberal direction, whereas

in the Episcopal and Anglican church, you have our black brothers and sisters in Africa who are the most conservative by

far.

Yeah.

Am I right on that?

Mostly, yes.

Yes, absolutely.

And so it's just, it's very interesting.

Yeah.

So to answer Donald's question, no matter what title they take, even if they call themselves chief toilet

cleaner, their job is to hold fast to the

trustworthy word.

I think that's what the apostle says, doesn't he?

And so that means that when we're training people, we need to be really, really clear that when we send them to be trained at a seminary,

that that is a good seminary.

And when we have any responsibility for staffing a seminary and putting its faculty in place, that

we get the very best people and we do not tolerate deviation from

orthodoxy of any form, because the damage it causes

down the line is appalling, as this issue and many others

has demonstrated.

By the way, I need to make some kind of a clarification here.

Here in the United States, it's interesting that as liberal as many in the quote, quote

clergy are amongst African -American or predominantly African -American churches

here in the United States, many of them, I don't know if it would be most of them, but

many of them, even if they were to be politically active and rallying

support for nearly every liberal political candidate running for office in their

area, or in regards to the President of the United States,

even the liberal congregations, many of them were very opposed to same -sex marriage

being legalized.

And I have also been told by many African -American brothers and sisters that

congregations tend to be a lot more

biblically orthodox and conservative than their pastors, and even many

pastors tend to be more biblically orthodox and conservative than their denominations.

So I just wanted to make that clarification before in my statements.

I'm going to email you another question that you can mull over during our

12 -minute break.

This is from another North Carolinian, and by the way, Reverend Donald Philip Veitch, and

you can send me a phonetic pronunciation of that name if I'm mispronouncing it, but

you have won, by virtue of the fact that you are a new or should I say first -time questioner

on Iron Trip and Zion Radio, you have won a free New American Standard Bible, compliments of the publishers

of the NASB.

So we need your full mailing address so that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com, can

ship that out to you as soon as possible.

Thank you very much for contributing your contribution, contributing your question

today.

Yes, I'm full of redundancies today.

And now we have another North Carolinian.

We have Hudson in Waxhaw, North Carolina.

I'm hoping I'm pronouncing that correctly, just pronouncing it the way it's spelled, Waxhaw, North Carolina.

I agree with you, I'm sorry, I agree with what you have been saying, but can you tell me

what it has to do with the specifics of reform and doctrine or Anglican

tradition?

Is there something in the reformed understanding of sexuality or in the Anglican Book of Common Prayer

that is unique among conservative Christians, an

understanding that might pertain to transgenderism?

Well, we'll have you respond to that when we come back to the break.

And as I said, I'm going to email you that question.

If anybody else would like to join us on the air, we still have a couple of you waiting to have your questions asked and answered, and we'll get to as many of you

as possible.

But if you'd like to join those who are already online and ask a question of your own, our email address is

chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back, God willing, after this 12 -minute break with our guest David Old and the

transgender controversy right after these messages.

Iron Sharpens Iron welcomes Solid Rock Remodeling to our family of sponsors.

Serving South Central Pennsylvania, Solid Rock Remodeling is focused on discovering,

understanding, and exceeding your expectations.

They deliver personalized project solutions with exceptional results.

Solid Rock Remodeling offers a full range of home renovations, including kitchen and bath

remodeling, decks, porches, windows and doors, roof and siding, and

more.

For a clear, detailed, professional estimate, call this trustworthy team of problem solvers

who provide superior results that stand the test of time.

Call Solid Rock Remodeling at 717 -697 -1981,

717 -697 -1981, or visit

solidrockremodeling .com.

That's solidrockremodeling .com.

Solid Rock Remodeling, bringing new life to your home.

Linbrook Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue.

In Linbrook, Long Island is teaching God's timeless truths in the 21st century.

Our church is far more.

Than a Sunday worship service.

It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.

It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement.

It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people in healing.

We're a diverse family of all ages, enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ in fellowship, play, and

together.

Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman and I invite you to come and join us here at Linbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can

be.

Call Linbrook Baptist.

At 516 -599 -9402. That's 516 -599

-9402, or visit linbrookbaptist .org.

That's linbrookbaptist .org.

One sure way all Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners can help keep my show on the air is to support my

advertisers.

I know you all use batteries every day, so I'm urging you all from now on to exclusively

use BatteryDepot .com for all your battery needs.

At BatteryDepot .com, they're changing the status quo.

They're flipping the script.

They're sticking it to the man.

In other words, they'd like to change the battery industry for good by providing an extensive inventory

of top -of -the -line batteries that are uniformly new, dependable, and affordable.

Ordering from BatteryDepot .com ensures you'll always get fresh out -of -the -box batteries you

can count on to work properly at competitive prices.

Whether you need batteries for cordless phones, cell phones, radios, PCs,

laptops, tablets, baby monitors, hearing aids, smoke detectors, credit card

readers, digital cameras, electronic cigarettes, GPS's, MP3 players,

watches, or nearly anything else you own that needs batteries, go to BatteryDepot

.com.

Next day shipping available.

All products protected by 30 -day guarantees and six -month warranties.

Call 866 -403 -3768.

That's 866 -403 -3768.

Or go to BatteryDepot .com.

That's BatteryDepot .com.

Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions,

coffee shops, and local hangouts, Long Island Youth for Christ staff and volunteers meet with young people

who need Jesus.

We are rural and urban and we are always about the message of Jesus.

Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York by engaging young people in the lifelong

journey of following Christ.

Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959.

We have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to

youths in need all over the country and around the world.

Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future.

Volunteer, donate, pray, or all of the above.

For details call Long Island Youth for Christ

at 631 -385 -8333.

That's 631 -385 -8333.

Or visit liyfc .org.

That's liyfc .org.

Chef Exclusive Catering is in south -central Pennsylvania.

Chef Exclusive's goal is to provide a dining experience that is sure to please any palate.

Chef Damian White of Chef Exclusive is a graduate of the renowned Johnson and Wales University with a degree in

culinary arts and applied science.

Chef Exclusive Catering's event center is newly designed with elegance and style and is available for

small office gatherings, bridal showers, engagement parties, and rehearsal dinners.

Critics and guests alike acknowledge Chef Exclusive's commitment to exceeding even the highest

expectations.

I know of their quality firsthand since Chef Exclusive catered by most recent Iron Sharpens Iron radio,

Pastor's Luncheon.

For details call 717 -388 -3000.

That's 717 -388 -3000.

Or visit chefexclusive .com.

That's chefexclusive .com.

Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko inviting you to tune in to A Visit to the Pastor's Study every Saturday

from 12 noon to 1 p .m. Eastern Time on WLIE Radio,

www .wlie540am .com.

We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the Pastor's Study by calling in

with your questions.

Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull.

Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for A Visit to the Pastor's Study.

Because everyone needs a pastor.

Hi, I'm Chris Arnsen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, here to tell you about an exciting

offer from World Magazine, my trusted source for news from a Christian perspective.

Try World at no charge for 90 days and get a free copy of R .C. Sproul's book,

Relationship Between Church and State.

I rely on World because I trust the reporting.

I gain insight from the analysis and World provides clarity to the news stories that really matter.

I believe you'll also find World to be an invaluable resource to better understand critical topics with a depth that's

simply not found in other media outlets.

Armed with this coverage, World can help you to be a voice of wisdom in your family and your community.

This trial includes bi -weekly issues of World Magazine, on -scene reporting from World Radio,

and the fully shareable content of World Digital.

Simply visit wng .org forward slash iron sharpens

to get your World trial and Dr. Sproul's book all free, no obligation with no credit

card required.

Visit World News Group at wng .org forward

slash iron sharpens today.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said, give yourself unto reading.

The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own.

You need to read.

Solid Ground Christian.

Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the Prince of Preachers to heart.

The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and

future, and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered, Christ -exalting

books for all ages.

We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com.

That's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past to

present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And Solid Ground Christian Books.

Has an enormous sale that they are offering right now.

Absolutely amazing.

If you have ever heard of Thomas Manton, well, you'll be delighted to hear

about this.

And if you've never heard about or heard of Thomas Manton, you need to know about Thomas Manton.

Solid Ground Christian Books is offering an enormous sale, a pre -publication

sale, on a 22 -volume hardback set of the complete works of Thomas Manton

that will be retailing for $1 ,000.

And you will get that at a pre -publication price of only

$299 .95.

And Charles Haddon Spurgeon referred to this 22 -volume set as a

mountain of sound theology.

And I hope that you go to solid -ground -books .com and investigate this offer, the complete

works of Thomas Manton.

Make sure you tell them about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio as your source of where

you discovered Solid Ground Christian Books.

And the good news is that your credit card and debit card will not be charged until the books

go into print, even though this is a pre -publication sale.

Your cards will not be charged and you will be able to

take advantage of this discount.

They need, this is a caveat here, they need to get enough orders in the pre -publication sale in order to move

forward and go into print because this is a very costly venture that Solid Ground Christian Books is going through.

So please go to solid -ground -books .com and look up the complete works of Thomas

Manton and please tell them that you heard about that offer on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I have just a couple more announcements to make before we return to our discussion with David Old on the

transgender controversy.

The Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is once again going to be conducting the Philadelphia Conference on

Reform Theology.

It's going to be held at two locations.

The first is going to be held April 13th through the 15th at the First Christian Reform Church in Byron Center, Michigan.

The second is going to be held at the Proclamation Presbyterian Church in Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania, April 27th through

the 29th.

The theme is the spirit of the age and the age of the spirit.

The speakers are Daniel Aiken, Richard Gaffin, Daniel Hyde, Conrad M. Bayway, who I believe is the most

powerful preacher on the planet Earth alive today, pastor of Kabwatha Baptist Church in Lusaka, Zambia,

Africa, Richard Phillips, another friend of mine from Second Presbyterian Church in Greenville, South Carolina,

Jonathan Master, who's been on this program a number of times, David Murray, who's been on this program as well a number of times,

and Scott Oliphant of Westminster Theological Seminary, who we are hoping to get on the program soon.

That's the spirit of the age, the age of the spirit, the Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology, either the 13th through the

15th of April in Bryn Center, Michigan, or from the 27th through the 29th in Bryn

Mawr, Pennsylvania.

Go to Alliancenet .org, Alliancenet .org, click on events, and then

click on the Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology.

Please tell the folks at the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals that you heard about these conferences from Chris Arns and on Iron Trump

and Zion Radio.

Last but not least is the part of the program that I hate to do, but it's

necessary.

I'm here with my tin cup in hand, rattling it, trying to get donations from you,

and although I hate doing this, I do love telling you the good news for those of you who have not heard this

good news before.

It is now very easy to donate to Iron Trump and Zion Radio.

You formerly, up until a couple of days ago, had to

send us a check via snail mail.

Well, now all you have to do is click on support at ironsharpensironradio .com.

That's ironsharpensironradio .com, click support.

Then you click, click to donate now, and that's it.

So you can make your donations by credit and debit card just by clicking, click to donate now.

And I hope that many of you begin taking advantage of that because we surely do need

the advertising dollars in order to remain on the air.

And please never, ever, ever siphon money out of your regular giving that you're accustomed to to your local

church, and never, ever take food off of your family's dinner table or put your family in financial jeopardy by giving to Iron Trump and

Zion Radio.

Providing for your family and providing for your church are two commands of God.

Providing for this show is not a command of God.

But if you are financially blessed above and beyond your ability to obey God by

providing for your church and home, then please consider also providing for Iron Trump and Zion Radio by going to

ironsharpensironradio .com, click support, and then click, click to donate now.

Or you can still mail in a check as always the old -fashioned way.

If you want to advertise with us, just send us an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Put advertising in the subject line and whatever it is you're advertising, as long as it's compatible with what we believe here

on Iron Trump and Zion Radio, we would love to help you launch an ad campaign with you.

Okay, now we are back with our discussion, back to our discussion, with David Old,

Senior Associate Minister at St. John's Anglican Cathedral in Parramatta, Australia.

We are discussing part two of a topic we began yesterday, the transgender controversy, the

response from the Sydney Australian Anglicans.

Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the USA.

And we have Hudson in Waxhaw, North Carolina, who says, I agree with what you have been saying,

but can you tell me what it has to do with the specifics of reformed doctrine or Anglican tradition?

Is there something in the reformed understanding of sexuality or in the Anglican book of common prayer that is unique

among conservative Christians, an understanding that might pertain to transgenderism?

There you go, David.

Wow, what a great question, Chris.

That's fascinating.

Now, in terms of Anglicanism, I would go, no, not particularly, but we'll return to how Anglicanism

expresses reformed theology.

I want to give you a couple of examples.

At the end, Anglicanism really is more about polity more than anything else, the sort of stuff we talked about before the

break, how we structure our leadership, that kind of thing.

But when it comes to reformed theology, I think reformed theology is incredibly helpful for working our way through this, because it's

only in reformed theology that you get a proper anthropology.

And dare I say, I'm going to use another big word, Hamartiology, that is to say, a doctrine of sin that

really helps me engage with this issue.

So the way that the Anglican Church expresses its theology is through

the third nine articles and through our prayer book.

So the third nine articles are really, really clear on some things that are very important in this debate.

What you've got to do, I think, in these new issues is take your groundwork, your ground basic doctrine,

and see how they apply themselves into the debate.

And over the past three hours of discussion, Chris, we've talked particularly in the theology section about how

we were created as male and female.

That's a good thing.

How sin has ravaged humanity and what that means.

And we've talked about what it means when you get that wrong.

And so reformed theology helps me as a great control.

Now, as an Anglican, my reformed theology helps me in a number of ways.

So Article 2 of the third nine articles teaches me that Jesus in the incarnation took man's

nature.

So it's a great affirmation of our creative nature as man.

It tells me that in his resurrection, Article 4, he took again his body with flesh, bones and

all things appertaining to the perfection of man's nature.

So there I've got reinforced this notion that there is a created humanity,

a nature to which I am and to which I am heading in my

resurrection.

And that's a good thing, and therefore something to be desired.

It affirms, the articles affirm Article 6, the sufficiency of the scriptures, which is, of course, is vitally important if I'm going to work

anything out theologically.

And then actually, like any good reformed theology, it works its way really, really

plainly through issues of sin.

So there's a whole article on original or birth sin, which directly repudiates Pelagianism

and talks about the corruption of our nature.

It talks about this infection of nature doth remain, yea, in them that are regenerate, whereby the lust

of the flesh, called in Greek phrenoma sarcos, which some do expound the wisdom, some sensuality, some the

affection, some the desire of the flesh, is not subject to the law of God.

And although there is no condemnation for them that believe and are baptized, yet the apostle doth confess that

concupiscence and lust have of itself the nature of sin.

Now that's big words, but it's actually really, really important, Chris, that I remember that even though I am justified, even though I am saved,

my sinful nature remains.

And I've already defined that sinful nature in the article as not just the bad things that I do, but as

an infection of nature, something that's gone wrong with me.

And so actually, that means that I can look at things like disordered desires, such as we might

believe that transgenderism is, and we can come to a right understanding of it.

We can say, yes, this is a corruption of the nature.

This is not who we were meant to be, and work it through in

that way.

What I've been fascinated as well about in my own Anglican heritage is

Cranmer, who was the original Archbishop, first Archbishop of Canterbury under the Church of

England, as it became when it broke away from Rome.

Cranmer contributed a huge amount of the Book of Common Prayer, not least collects little

prayers that collect together an idea and pray it.

And his collects are great to read through, and there's a new one

every week or for every feast day.

Let me read to you the collect from the second Sunday in Lent, which was read just a few weeks ago, and just see how this

actually helps us.

Because the great thing about of the Christian life, listen to this,

Almighty God, who see us that we have no power of ourselves to help ourselves, keep us

outwardly in our bodies and inwardly in our souls, that we may be defended from all adversities

which may happen to the body and from all evil thoughts which may assault and hurt the soul through Jesus

Christ our Lord.

And all God's people said, Amen.

But what's great about that, do you see, is that holistic view of the Christian life, that there is my body and what happens to

it, and what he calls the adversities which may happen to the body, but there is also my

soul.

So there's that internal part of me, that eternal part of me that will last after my death and

be reunited with a resurrection body.

And Cranmer, helpfully, because his theology is right, because he understands that I am created in a certain

way, but he also understands that sin will affect me both outward and in.

He wants me to pray holistically as well for the totality of my body.

Now, if I take that kind of theology, and I then take it into this debate on the

transgender, I must come to particular conclusions, you see.

I must say it matters what happens to

my body.

It's not inflexible.

Sorry, it's not flexible.

It's not fluid.

I can't have one sort of soul and a different kind of body, if you'd like.

There's an integration to it all.

My humanity is grounded in the great model of the Lord Jesus Christ.

My hope is the resurrected body of the Lord Jesus Christ.

In the meantime, I'm realistic about sin and what it's done to my body.

And I'm also realistic—I think this is important pastorally, Chris—I'm also realistic that

for the Christian transgender person, which I realize for some of your listeners you see, they will go, there can't be such a thing.

And I want to go, well, yes, there is.

There will be Christians out there, people who are regenerate of the Holy Spirit,

who are men who think that they should be women, or women who think

that they should be men.

Now, they won't be saying, yes, I just give way to this, and I just go for it.

But that desire will still be there.

It'll be a small number of people, but it will be there.

And to say that cannot possibly be the case is to actually deny our reformed theology, Chris.

It's to actually become a perfectionist, isn't it?

To become a moral perfectionist, to go down that purity line that says, when I get converted, everything is sorted out.

Well, no, it's not.

You and I walk around every day with sinful desire.

We don't feed it, or we seek not to feed it anyway, but it's still there.

We're still messed up.

You and I are longing for the day when Jesus returns, and everything is made as it should be, and I go to be part of the new

creation, where there is, therefore, no more tears, no more death, none of the corruption.

What does Paul call it in Romans 8?

The glorious freedom of the sons of God.

What a wonderful day that will be.

But we don't have that now.

We have the promise of it now.

And so that helps me actually pastorally deal with people who are feeling these things.

There will be people in our churches, not many of them, but some there who are feeling these things,

and only, I think, a good, robust reformed theology allows me to respond to them.

If I finish with Luther, what does Luther say?

Simul justus et peccator.

So I am at the same time justified, yet still a sinner.

That counts for our brothers and sisters who experience these transgender desires and thoughts.

If they are justified, they are justified, and yet the ravages of sin are still there, and we need

to find helpful, pastorally sensitive ways.

Of yearning with them for the new creation.

By the way, if our listeners want to learn more about Thomas Cramner, I did

a couple of interviews with Dr. Ashley Null, who is an Anglican scholar and

specifically a Cramner scholar, perhaps the most learned of all

living Cramner scholars. He would never describe himself that way.

In fact, he has lovingly rebuked me for doing so on the air, but I think that is a

case that is easily made that he is among the most learned Cramner scholars alive

today.

Well, you can hear those interviews on the podcast past programs section

archived at ironsharpensirenradio .com.

Just type in Null, N as in Nancy, U -L -L in the search engine, and you will get all of the

interviews that we did with Dr. Ashley Null, who is now in

Berlin.

I am planning on doing at least a week's

worth of special programs on the major confessions of Reformed

theology, which would not only include the 39 articles of religion,

but the Westminster Confession of Faith, the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, the Three Forms of

Unity, and the Savoy Declaration.

And I believe I am going to have Dr. Ashley Null speak about

the 39 articles during that series.

And by the way, wasn't Cramner such a fascinating hero from church history, not to divert the issue

here too much, but the fact that he originally, out of

fear for his life, when after the death of King Henry VIII, when the throne returned to Roman

Catholicism, out of fear for his life, he recanted his Protestant faith, and then later

when his conscience overwhelmed him with guilt, he recanted his recantation,

and when he was being executed, before he was burned alive, he requested that the

hand that signed his recantation of Protestantism be burned first.

Isn't that pretty remarkable?

He finished well, Chris.

He's one of my great heroes.

Anglicanism has a number of great heroes of the faith.

Cranmer, one of the first great, great men.

That's right.

He bottled it for a while.

He succumbed for a while out of fear, and then was strengthened.

Queen Mary made a big, big mistake.

When she imprisoned Cranmer and some other bishops, principally Latimer and Ridley, for a while they were imprisoned

together in the Tower, the Tower of London, that is.

Big, big mistake.

Put three reformed men together, what are they going to do?

Pray and encourage each other with the gospel.

So Cranmer, actually, he weakened after Latimer and Ridley were executed.

Then he was on his own, and then he weakened for a while, and he did recant, but then at his trial,

they put on a show trial for him in Oxford, I think St. Mary's Church, I actually last year visited

there in Oxford, the place where his show trial was, and they thought that he was going to repeat his

recantation.

And yet he got up and he said, now to the matter that has troubled me the most, and he decried the Pope

and he called the great biblical faith out again.

And so they run him off to the pyre to burn him.

And he said, this foul hand, this hand, which wrote the recantation, burn

it first.

So he died, he died really well.

Amen.

And we are going to go to our final break right now.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, do so now or forever hold your peace.

Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state and your country of residence.

If you live outside of the USA, please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And by the way, Hudson and Waxhaw, North Carolina, since you are also a first -time questioner

on Iron Trip and Zion Radio, you have also won a free New American Standard Bible.

Please send me or email me your email address.

I'm sorry.

Please email me your mailing address, your shipping address, so we can have

that New American Standard Bible shipped out to you as soon as possible by our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service,

cvbbs .com, who will ship that to you at no cost to you or to Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

And we thank Todd and Patty Jennings, owners of cvbbs .com, for always shipping out

our audience their free books, Bibles, DVDs, CDs, and other things that they win

by sending in questions to our guests on Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

And we also thank once again our sponsors who publish the New American Standard Bible for

providing us with these Bibles to give away.

And by the way, thank you Reverend Donald Philip Veitch, who clarified the

correct pronunciation of his last name.

I mispronounced it earlier as Veitch, and he emailed me, informing me that it is Veitch,

but told me that people have been butchering his name for decades, so I had nothing to worry about.

And we are going to be back after this brief break, so don't go away.

David Old will be back momentarily, and we'll look forward to hearing from you and your.

Questions for our guests.

Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune into a visit to The Pastor's Study every Saturday from

12 noon to 1 pm Eastern Time on WLIE Radio, www

.wlie540am .com.

We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit The Pastor's Study by calling in

with your questions.

Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull.

Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for a visit to The Pastor's Study,.

Because everyone needs a pastor.

Iron Sharpens Iron welcomes Solid Rock Remodeling to our family of sponsors.

Serving South Central Pennsylvania, Solid Rock Remodeling is focused on discovering,

understanding, and exceeding your expectations.

They deliver personalized project solutions with exceptional results.

Solid Rock Remodeling offers a full range of home renovations, including kitchen and bath

remodeling, decks, porches, windows and doors, roof and siding, and

more.

For a clear, detailed professional estimate, call this trustworthy team of problem solvers

who provide superior results that stand the test of time.

Call Solid Rock Remodeling at 717 -697 -1981,

717 -697 -1981, or visit

solidrockremodeling .com.

That's solidrockremodeling .com.

Solid Rock Remodeling, bringing new life to your home.

Thriving Financial is not your typical.

Financial services provider.

As a membership organization, we help Christians be wise with money and live generously every day.

And for the fourth year in a row, we were named one of the world's most ethical companies by the Ethisphere

Institute, a leading international think tank dedicated to the creation, advancement, and sharing of best

practices in business ethics.

Contact me, Mike Gallagher, Financial Consultant,

at 717 -254 -6433.

Again, 717 -254 -6433 to learn more about the Thrivant Difference.

Lending faith, finances, and generosity.

That's the Thrivant Story.

Charles Hedden Spurgeon once said, Give yourself unto reading.

The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

You need to read.

Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the Prince of Preachers to heart.

The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and

future, and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered, Christ -exalting

books for all ages.

We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com.

That's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past to

present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Because of you, there are four ways you can help.

First, do you know potential sponsors who may wish to advertise their goods or services on Iron Sharpens

Iron Radio?

Second, whenever possible, purchase the products or use the services that our sponsors advertise,

and then let them know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Thirdly, you can also donate to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio by going to our website at

ironsharpensironradio .com and click support at the top of the page.

But most importantly, keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio in your prayers.

We hope that Iron Sharpens Iron Radio blesses you for many years to come.

And don't forget, you can now donate online at ironsharpensironradio .com very easily

and quickly by going to ironsharpensironradio .com, clicking support, and then click on click to

donate now.

It's as easy as that, and we hope many of you begin to take advantage of that methodology of

donating to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And by the way, for all of our Anglican and Episcopalian listeners today, I thought that you

should know that solid -ground -books .com, one of our sponsors, does

have quite a number of books that have been reprinted from the past,

from the 19th century and even going back much farther, by

Episcopalian and Anglican scholars and theologians.

In fact, even a biography that was written not long ago, the A

Born -Again Episcopalian, the evangelical witness of Charles Pettit

McIlvaine, who was a bishop in Ohio, I believe, an Episcopal bishop in

Ohio, and quite an excellent book.

I just did an interview with the Reverend Jacob Smith of the parish of Calvary St. George's in New York City

recently on this biography, and I intend to have the author of this biography on the near future, God

willing.

Thomas Garrett Isham is a living Episcopalian scholar and author, and I hope to have

him back on the program as well.

So go to solid -ground -books .com, and you will see a treasure trove of things there, not only by

Anglicans and Episcopalians, but by Presbyterians and Baptists and Congregationalists and other Protestant heroes

of the past and of the present.

There are contemporary works also that are theologically sound that have been brought into print,

including the one I just mentioned, A Born -Again Episcopalian by Thomas Garrett Isham, which is a

biography of Charles Pettit McIlvaine.

Now we are in our last 25 minutes or so of our program, actually in our last

29 minutes or so of our program.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the USA.

And before I go to any of our listener questions, I know that you

wanted to enter into a different phase of the discussion today.

If you could, David, go into the next phase of this.

Report that you want to discuss.

Sure.

Thanks, Chris, because I think it's important to point out that after you've done all the groundwork, you've laid down your biblical worldview, you've

analyzed the background, you've done the science, you've come to some conclusions there.

You actually need to go somewhere with it.

So this is no good for the church, is it, unless it's any good for the church.

We've got some practical ways forward.

So the report we're discussing ends with some general principles, which I think are

really, really helpful.

I might just be worth pointing them out.

They're in Section 9 of the report.

And we begin where you have to begin, which is that the promise of the gospel is that all those who trust in Christ are

assured of existential peace.

We are very clear in our language there, and wholeness in the resurrection life of a new creation.

So we want to be clear right from the start.

It's what we discussed before the break, that Christian hope is not

every day of Friday.

God may be kind to us this life and may give us wonderful, wonderful things, but the genuine Christian hope for which we all

yearn in the Spirit, remediate, is for the new creation.

That's where the hope is.

We want to affirm that those who have faith in Christ are loved by God, and that includes those whose personal

trial includes gender identity issues.

So such people therefore deserve our own compassion, love, and care.

We then affirm the principles of how God made us, male and female.

We affirm the principle of damage and distortion in the fall.

We affirm the important principle that God has compassion on the weak and the vulnerable.

We affirm the psychosomatic unity of the body, that is to say body and soul holistically belong

together.

We affirm that we want to embrace the binary distinctions of male and female.

And importantly, we affirm that our organizations, churches, schools, whatever they may be, are places where all people,

including those who experience gender identity issues, are welcomed, loved, and supported, and helped to live in

obedience to Christ.

It's really important, isn't it, that we again, we break down this nonsense that loving someone means I must always

affirm everything that they do.

No, no.

To love someone is to point them towards Christ.

And what's that going to look like?

Well, practical love looks like, we say, faithfulness to the teaching of the Bible, compassion and active love, care, and support,

rejection of bullying and abuse, evidence -based pathways for treatment, which are

consistent with Scripture, and ensuring that our churches and organizations are adequately informed

about these issues and the relevant teaching of the Bible.

The last thing is really important, Chris.

I think most of the people that I begin to have conversations with this out in the churches really don't understand what the

issue is.

They actually don't understand what transgenderism is, what's going on for people when they express

gender incongruence.

And so the first thing we've got to do is to understand what's going on, as well as understand what the Bible says,

understand what the scientific outcomes are.

And so we're trying to put together this framework for how to start applying it into the life

of the church together.

And then next year, we're hoping to come back with some far more rigorous and detailed principles of application

for the various different bodies that are part of our big Anglican family.

Yes, and you say that we need to understand these issues, but I'm sure what you mean by that, as best as we can, because I don't

think anybody really understands it fully.

In fact, those who are transgendered or claim to be, I should say, probably understand it the least.

They know what they're going through the best, but they probably understand what is really going on

the least, and those supporting them and encouraging them and manipulating them

and using them as fodder for a political platform and so on, they are probably, in

fact, I would say certainly the least knowledgeable of what is really going on.

Oh, totally.

So the activists in the field are.

The real, I hesitate to use the word enemy here, but they're the real people we want to watch out for.

What I mean is just that more general pastoral sense, Chris, and you'll notice as well, and many of your listeners will be aware of this, that I

go into most pastoral situations, and I can't help but already have a view on what's

going on, and therefore what this person's motivations are, why they've ended up in the place where they are, and

yet wisdom teaches me, doesn't it, as well as the Scriptures, interestingly enough, teaches me what might be best

just at the start is just to stop and listen for a little bit longer and just hear a person

out, hear their story, listen to what they're saying, seek to understand them on their own

terms to some extent so that when I finally open my mouth, if I must, and sometimes I

don't need to, I'm better informed, I'm better able to love this person in front of me,

having understood their story and where they're actually coming to, and so then the words that I say will start to engage with

their assessment of where they're at.

Now, their assessment of where they're at may not be correct, but I need to understand what they really

think is going on before I can move them to the place where I think they

should be.

It just doesn't help when we crash in blindly without hearing where people are

at.

These are individuals made in the image of God, loved by God.

God does not delight in the death of a sinner.

We talked about that yesterday, didn't we, Chris?

And so I need to love them like God loves them, which is to know them.

Intimately, if necessary, so I can love them as best I can.

We have an anonymous listener who says, I heard you say earlier that the best thing we can

do as parents is watch and wait.

I can tell you there is no way on the face of the earth that I am going to watch and wait

while my son begins dressing up like a girl and permit him to do that.

I am going to forbid any kind of action like that and enforce a rule in

my home that the son always dresses like a young boy should.

What is your reaction to what I just said?

Well, it's said with some passion, isn't it,.

Chris?

And I think I want to be very, very careful.

So hear me right when I say watch and wait.

So what we know is that for, let me repeat this, that for about

97 and a half percent of children who express a

genuine sort of gender incongruence, that is to say they genuinely say of their own

volition, I think I'm the opposite sex.

Of course, a child will say it slightly differently.

A boy will say, I think I'm a girl.

Of those prepubescent, about 97 and a half percent will revert by the

end of puberty to their biological sex.

They will just revert naturally.

That is to say it's a phase.

If that's the case, then we need to just be patient with them.

They will grow out of it.

Now, you may want to set your rules.

You may want to set your rules.

And parenting is very, very hard.

I've got three kids of my own.

I know, you know, it's so easy to be an expert on everyone else's children and not get your own right.

It's so easy to know what the principles are, but not to apply them in your home.

So you've got to work out what the rules are in your own home.

But I think what we've got to understand is that sometimes children will play.

So actually, there is nothing wrong with a child dressing up in cross

-gender clothes.

There's nothing wrong with that in and of itself if it's just playing.

I mean, you know, we do that in all sorts of different ways.

And we've got to be careful that we're not placing too tight a constraint.

Most little boys, if they dress up in a dress just to play, know that they're playing

and they get bored of it very, very quickly.

And they actually want to go back to wearing whatever boys wear in your cultural context, which in itself is an important thing.

Cultural context is really, really important.

There will only be a very small minority for whom it's a genuine transgender thing.

I would say, this is just my general pastoral advice as a minister,

unnecessarily restricting your children in this way, if it's just a

general interest, may actually cause them to be more interested in the thing that you say no to.

So if your little boy, if your eight -year -old says, you know what, I'm going to wear a dress today, I would say,

let him wear a dress around the home that day if you want to.

And treat it for the silliness that it is.

Now, of course, should they be going outside to the mall, shopping mall with that on, I would say no.

And I'm certainly not going to take them out in something that's not appropriate for them.

In the same way that with my teenage daughter, I don't let her wear some clothes for different reasons that aren't appropriate.

But letting your, do you know what I mean?

But letting your, because actually I have her dignity.

I have her dignity as one of my priorities.

But letting your boy just wear a dress for a day around the house, let him get out of his system.

Let him see what it's like.

I mean, kids are curious, right?

Just let him see what it's like.

Mostly, here's the thing.

We've been led to be really scared about this issue because the activists have said, oh, if a boy puts on a dress, oh, he's

transgender.

And so as a parent, I go, oh, my boy's transgender.

And I actually want to go, no, he's not.

He's just probably a boy who wants to see what it's like to wear a dress because all the girls around him wear dresses.

So let him put a dress on.

And after a bit, you can say to him, it's not that much fun, is it?

And he'll go, nah, it's not.

And so you go, okay, let's put our regular clothes back on again.

Do you know what I mean?

Like almost, let's not let the activists set the agenda for this.

Let's sit a bit loose to it.

It's okay in the vast majority of cases.

It's not going to be an issue.

I am not a parent, but I believe right now with every fiber of my

being, and of course, I am speaking as one who has no children.

But I think that if I did have children, I am actually certain right now as I sit here,

that if my son, no matter how old he was or young, was wearing a dress,

I would not scream at him and throw something at him or throw him against the wall or do anything violent or

smack him.

But I would say, did you know that the Bible says that that's wrong?

And I would open up the scriptures to that child and clearly point out to the child in a very calm

way.

I would hope that I would be calm and patient and loving in the way I would do this, but I believe that that's

the way I would react.

I would say, you know, the Bible says, God says, you're not supposed to do that, honey.

So please, you know, put your pants back on and take the dress off or vice versa, I should say.

Take the dress off and put the pants back on.

Yeah, but Chris, I think what I want to say is, if it was a persistent behavior, then I'd

absolutely be with you.

But if it's just a one -off playing, we actually do a whole bunch of things

that are not the norm in play, recognizing that it's

play.

And so I think maybe this is where we're going to disagree.

I think the biblical proscription is against that ingrained saying, I am

a woman.

I mean, we point out in the report itself where the scriptures

clearly make that distinction, where they clearly say it is not right to distort that.

But we do a whole bunch of stuff just in play.

I think what I'm trying to say is, let's not overreact to children just being children,

because I fear that by doing so, we're actually playing into the agenda of the activists rather

than, as we think so, actually opposing them.

However, let me just say, I am the parent of my children, and every parent needs to

decide for themselves what is best for their children.

So let me affirm that at the end.

You are answerable to God for your children.

I am not.

So I'll have my say, I'll set up my principles, but you must do what you in good conscience think is

best for your.

Children.

Yeah, believe it or not, I had a conversation that is not related to children about this,

but I was interviewed by an African -American brother in Christ who has his own

podcast, Dwayne Atkinson.

I don't know if you know Dwayne.

He has a program called The Bar, which stands for biblical and reformed.

And he, during the interview, well, he was interviewing me at the G3

conference.

He mentioned how angry he is over, oh boy, his

name just flew out of my head, very famous black actor and movie director and

producer and screenplay writer.

I can't think of his name.

He went from rags to riches.

And he does the Madea series of movies.

Maybe you don't have them in Australia.

No, I'm not aware of them, Chris.

Okay, well, he, this male actor dresses as Madea

in the movies.

And Madea is supposed to be a grandmotherly figure, a very sassy black

grandmotherly figure.

And the figure, the character is not supposed to look like an attractive woman.

I mean, it's a comic, it's a comical character.

So I did not take nearly as aggressive an attitude against what,

Tyler somebody, Tyler Perry?

I don't know.

Anyway, I did not take it nearly as aggressive an attitude against

what Tyler was doing in these movies.

And because I realized, yes, it is Tyler Perry.

I realized that he is not trying to look sexually attractive to men as a woman dressed in

a woman's clothing.

He is intended to look hilariously funny.

And you know, he is morbidly obese, elderly woman in the character.

And also it harkens back to people like Milton Berle and others who

used to in a comic comic way dress in a woman's outfit, but nobody took the person

seriously as if they were trying to look sexy.

Now, Flip Wilson, on the other hand, was another story.

He's the Australian.

Example.

Dame Edna Everidge is a global megastar, right?

Do you have Dame Edna Everidge in America?

Yes, I've seen.

Barry Humphreys is the name of the comedian.

And one of his stage personas is Dame Edna Everidge, most brilliant, brilliant comedy

act, Chris, dressed up as a most grotesquely overdone woman.

Nobody would ever think that Barry Humphreys thinks he's a woman.

Let's see, we have Christopher in Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, who

asks, do all Episcopalian and Anglican bodies

still have on paper the 39 articles as their creed

and just ignore the 39 articles or have most of these churches and denominations

and bodies.

Utterly abandoned them officially?

Very briefly, no, some have effectively abandoned them or they speak about them as historical

documents.

The Episcopal Church has effectively abandoned them.

The Church of England now requires its ordinance to affirm the I think the

correct language is affirm the 39 articles as a historical document of our faith, which is such a

bland, weaselly word kind of statement that you can make of it what you want.

Here in the Anglican Church of Australia, our constitution still refers to the 39 articles as our standard of doctrine.

Now, whether clergy and bishops around us actually believe that and act consistently

with it, even though it's one of the fundamental points of the constitution, is a matter for great concern

for many of us.

I do remember writing a piece a number of years ago about one prominent lay person here who decried the Sydney

Anglicans as un -Anglican and gave her definition of Anglican.

My only response to her on a blog piece was, well, when I read the constitution of the Anglican Church of Australia,

it says that this is our definition of Anglicanism, which includes the 39 articles.

I've made that point in discussion groups in general synod with bishops who have said things

like, well, we're not talking about that now, let's move on.

So, yes, for some places it's official, some places actually believe it.

So the Church of Nigeria, for example, has made that the central issue, the 39 articles, and

ascribes to it.

And they are wholehearted about it.

Here in Australia, it's official.

Some of us are wholehearted, some of us are not.

And in other places, it is a mere historical document of some interest, but not to be held

as authority.

Let's see, we have Christian in Cumberland County,

Pennsylvania, who says, I've heard a lot of Aussies before, but you

sound very different.

Are you actually a native Australian?

By the way, am I pronouncing, well, how do you pronounce that?

It's softer.

So you do it the same way that James White does, and I do try and correct him regularly.

It's not worked.

Aussie, it's softer.

Australia, it's an Aussie.

They don't tend to call themselves Aussies here, really.

We're Australians.

I'm a British.

I'm still a British citizen, actually.

My passport renewal was just confirmed this morning by email.

I'm a British citizen living in Australia as a permanent resident here.

So that's why you notice I don't have an accent.

This is what real English is meant to sound like.

They have rather corrupted my accent over the years here in

Australia.

We've been here for 14 years.

We love the place.

It's our home now.

It's where our children were raised.

We dearly, dearly love the place.

But yes, my accent is originally from the UK, tempered with a little bit of time in the

States, sometime in Singapore, where my beautiful wife is from, and much time in Australia.

We have, let's see here, we have Arnie in Perry County,

Pennsylvania, who says, don't you think it can be very dangerous and

problematic to treat people who are involved in certain types of sins, like

transgenderism and homosexuality, with a lot more tenderness and

patience and sweetness than we would with a drug addict or a

drunkard or a person involved in whoremongering, etc.?

It seems to me that many who are involved in the homosexual acts are being pampered by

Christians far too much.

I'm not saying we should hate them.

I'm not saying that we should be cruel to them, but we must be truthful to them and always bring up the

fact that they need to repent.

Well, Arnie, I don't think they're mutually exclusive.

I'm going to push back a little bit at your question with gentle respect.

I don't think they're mutually exclusive.

Chris, the last five years of my ministry, before Parramatta, when we last spoke, I was in an area called

Macquarie Fields in the southwest of Sydney, which is an area of what you might call social disadvantage.

Every day I was meeting people for whom life was just really, really hard.

There were generational issues going on in that place for many people.

You would sit down and you would hear people's stories.

They were horrendous.

Only last month, I was in court for the sentencing of a man in his late 30s

who, at the time he committed his crimes, had returned to heroin and was committing crimes to

fund his addiction and had committed a whole bunch of pretty horrible—they were thefts,

so there were no personal attacks against individuals.

There were a whole bunch of thefts, but he'd stolen from old people's homes and from teachers at primary schools

and so forth.

Chris, it's really easy just to drop the hammer, but actually when you hear this man's story, you actually

realize there is a sense in which he had very little control

over what was going on for him.

I don't want to share his story now.

It's not my right on a public thing to share the details of his personal story,

but I think you've just got to step back and just go, when

someone's life is really, really difficult, I need to meet them with great, great compassion.

Again, we talked about this yesterday.

The Lord Jesus Christ meets terrible sinners around him with

amazing compassion.

He's wise and winsome about how he does it sometimes.

He's quite clever about how he does it another way.

For example, the woman at the well that he meets in Samaria in John 4, that line,

the man is not your husband and indeed you've had six husbands or five husbands, I think he says.

It's a telling line, isn't it?

He's just—.

And would be taken as rude by many people.

Yeah, he's opened up her life.

Now, she has been complicit in sin quite clearly, and yet also much

sinned against.

Just get the reality of the situation.

A woman there in the middle of the day, drawing water in the middle of the day because there's nowhere at the time she can do it without someone

pointing and laughing at her.

No one else is there.

She meets this man and he opens up her

life for all the shame it must have been for her.

She's gone from man to man.

How much of that is her choosing to go man to man?

How much of that is her being passed on?

We never quite know.

But he loves her and opens up her life.

And what does she do?

She runs back to town, where she's probably an outcast, that kind of life, and says, come meet

the man who told me about everything I've ever done.

Do you know what I mean?

It's incredible.

He loves her, and it opens up her life, and she's not afraid to have her life opened up.

Jesus saves his sharpness for the Pharisees, for the, if you like,

for the philosophical activists of his day, the people who put the burdens on other people,

the people who set the impossible standards, the people who are the false shepherds, who lead the sheep to their

death, plummeting over the cliffs.

That's where the harshness is for.

If in doubt, Chris, grace.

This is a big principle, I think, of pastoral ministry.

I just need to keep reminding myself, if in doubt, grace.

The Lord Jesus Christ is consistently gracious.

He is never anything but clear on sin, but he is consistently gracious.

So if in doubt, grace.

And I think it took me five years living in a place where you just, day after day, heard the

horrible stories of people, and I just went, and it's what I said earlier about hearing people's stories, you've just got to

spend a bit more time, understand why they are the way that they are, sympathize with the pain that they're feeling,

and then show them the man who can help them, which is not me

or you,.

It's the Lord Jesus Christ.

Yes, well, I would agree with you that we should be gracious with those enslaved to sin,

but we don't have a recording of the Apostle Paul's voice when he was

addressing the crowd there in 1 Corinthians 6, 9

-11.

I'm assuming that he was not screaming at them with veins popping out of his neck.

He was, I'm assuming, very gracious in his tone and manner, but he did warn

that people involved in those activities, and homosexuality is included with a

host of other very horrible sins that even

those involved with homosexuality would say,.

Wow, that's a horrible sin.

Yeah, absolutely.

My point is that when he writes to Thessalonians, he says, you know how we lived amongst you, like a mother caring

for her children.

So yes, in the public speeches that were recorded for us, we've got clarity, we've got it there,

but we've also got Paul also showing us the

interpersonal side of pastoral ministry as well, and I think we just need to be just really careful about that, the

interplay between the two.

Christians in the Western culture like to be clear on things and dogmatic on them, and we see so many things

being eroded around us that we instinctively push back, and we push back by

being clear and firm on things.

And what's going on even in these interactions on this podcast is, as

I set a clear reformed agenda, I hope, and clarity on this issue, but

perhaps a gentler pastoral response than some people are used to, there's an immediate sort of

gentle pushback on that, well intended.

Let me tell you why I'm gentle in my response.

It's because I'm actually confident in what the truth is.

I'm actually confident that I don't need to immediately jump and assert.

If I'm confident in the reality of what's going on here, if I've done my homework, if I know the medical background, if

I know that actually I can watch and wait, for example, with a small child, and if ultimately I'm confident in the Lord Jesus

Christ and his return, and that all things are sorted out then, I need to point people towards him, I can just sit a

little bit easy on my need to be assertively dogmatic.

And I wonder if part of it is simply just a cultural difference between where most of your listeners are from and where I'm from, just in

the way that we talk about these things.

Each one of us is going to have to work it out in their own context and do what they think is best to be faithful

in that context.

And I mean that not just to defend my own position, but actually to give a sense of agency to your

listeners as well.

They've got to work it out for themselves and do what they think is best.

Well, I want to make sure once again that our listeners have all your contact information.

I know your personal website is davidold .net, and that's davidould

.net, and I know that the website for St. John's Anglican Church,

where you serve as the associate, or senior associate minister, St. John's Anglican Cathedral, I should

say, in Parramatta, Australia, that website is stjohnscathedral

.org .au.

That's stjohnscathedral .org .au, and Saint is abbreviated ST,

and there's no periods or spaces in that.

Any other contact information that you care to give.

Our listeners?

That's probably it for now.

If you go to the website, you can see the pieces on the transgender issue that I've been writing most

recently.

I'll also send you a link, Chris, so you can point your listeners to that directly from the

webpage that you put this podcast up on.

Yes, and you have a direct link specifically to the report of the Sydney Australian Anglicans

to the transgender issue.

Well, I want to thank you so much, David.

It has been a joy.

It has been fascinating, and I look forward to having you back on a multitude of other subjects in the very near future and

very often.

Keep in mind, folks, tomorrow and Monday, we have Dr. Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist

Seminary returning to Iron Trumpets on Radio.

He's going to be critiquing my debate with the British barrister James Bogle

on Roman Catholicism that took place on the unbelievable radio program in the UK.

We are going to play that debate, and we're going to have Dr. Tony Costa, who is the professor of apologetics at

Toronto Baptist Seminary, give his assessment of it.

I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.