March 15, 2018 Show with David Ould on “The Transgender Controversy: The Response From The Sydney, Australian Anglicans” (Part 2)

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania It's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors

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Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another

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To make one another wiser and better It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour

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And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions

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Now here's our host Chris Arnton Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity who are living on the planet Earth listening via live streaming

01:12

This is Chris Arntz and your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 15th day of March 2018 and We are going to be addressing

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Part two of an issue that we began yesterday and that is the

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Transgender controversy the response from the Sydney Australian Anglicans. Once again, we have returning to our program

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For part two of this discussion David old who is senior associate minister at st.

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John's Anglican Cathedral in Parramatta, Australia and It is an honor and privilege to welcome you back for part two of this very timely discussion

01:59

David old Hi Chris great great to be with you We had it we were touching go with the phones there for a minute weren't we but we're here and we're live

02:08

Yeah, that's right. It's not a live radio. You can't you just can't beat live radio Too good

02:15

Well, I think what I'm gonna do is before I even get some of your summary of Yesterday's a program because I think that will be important since I'm sure a lot of people are tuning in for the first time today

02:27

And they haven't had the advantage of hearing part one of this program yesterday But a very providential thing occurred yesterday a very timely thing in regard to our topic exercise guru

02:40

Richard Simmons according to Fox News was ordered to pay nearly $130 ,000 to the

02:48

National Enquirer and radar online After Simmons sued the two media outlets for running a series of articles alleging he was transforming to becoming a woman

03:02

Simmons who is 69 was ordered by Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Gregory Keosian Friday to pay the media outlets attorneys fees and American media their publisher the

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Los Angeles Times reported the defendants sought $220 ,000 in a motion filled in January that Simmons lawyers dubbed a billing fiesta

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Simmons sued the media outlets in May for a series of articles They alleged the fitness that alleged the fitness guru was transforming to become a woman

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He claimed that while he holds no personal ill feelings towards the transgender community

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The articles were false and defamatory to his character Simmons lawyers argued that as a public figure he has a legal right to not be portrayed as someone he is not however

03:54

Judge Gregory Keosian ruled that alleging someone is transgender is not necessarily defamatory

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Keosian dismissed Simmons case on September 1st 2017 and I think that probably

04:13

This is going to be there's going to be an appeal for this Yes, in fact, this is the

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Los Angeles Times reported that Simmons is appealing the dismissal motion This is this is a pretty scary thing in this world

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Where someone else can determine whether or not you are being defamed in fact an officer of the court a judge can

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Make a decision a ruling as to whether or not you personally are being defamed

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Just because he or she may not think that the way you are being described is an insulting thing but If you could

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David Explain to our listeners in summary form what we addressed yesterday

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Tell us first of all about this report That was compiled

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By the Sydney Australian Anglicans in regard to the transgender controversy why it was done and the background from which this report is coming because People hearing this the first time may think wrongly

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That you and the Sydney Anglicans are like many other Anglicans who not only find nothing wrong with Transgenderism or homosexuality or anything outside of The confines of biblical marriage, but they may even ordain people

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Who are either transgendered or homosexual they may not realize there is a difference in Regard to the

05:47

Sydney Australian Anglicans. So if you could tell us about those things that I asked Sure.

05:52

Thanks, Chris Maybe we'll start at the last point that you raised the the Sydney diocese of the

05:57

Anglican Church of Australia So we group ourselves into diocese geographical areas Under a bishop or in our case under an archbishop because we're a large large area

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The Sydney diocese is a fairly conservative diocese It's reformed a lot of your listeners, although they might not agree with our polity on some small matters

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We'll probably find themselves very much at home In in many if not, most of our of our churches and there are a number of diocese in Australia didn't like that But obviously of also a number of diocese that aren't that are that are almost the opposite So given that like in the

06:33

States and elsewhere, there's been this increasing pressure on gender identity Questions, I'm particularly working this way out in schools and workplaces and all those kinds of things the the synod which is our annual

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Parliament the synod of the diocese asked our social issues executive to prepare a report on a

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Identity and the beginning of a response To what we were seeing around us probably

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I would say even a couple of years late But this is sort of snuck up on us Australia has been involved as you guys have been in there in the same -sex marriage debate and the transgender thing is rather sort of Snuck in on the blind side on that So I was asked to be part of a subcommittee that put together this report

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So it's myself and another clergyman in the in the diocese We were chaired by a lady called dr.

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Claire Smith, who's a very very sharp theologian who's already done some work Theological work in this area.

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We're also joined by two medical professionals. Dr. Megan best who is a medical doctor and researchers done a lot of work in fields like palliative care and other places and also a

07:48

Professor dr. Patricia, we're a coon who is a sexologist. So she's a professor of sex and In the sense that she looks at the physiological aspects and psychological aspects of sex.

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So what's going on in my brain? During sex and and how is the brain shaped towards sex and all that kind of stuff and she's written a number of books already

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On the topic. So we got together and we produced a report I think the link is on your website

08:17

Chris and it's also on my own website and we it's one of those comprehensive Although I say it myself one of those comprehensive reports.

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I've seen from any Anglican body let alone. I think any any Christian body It's not complete.

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We point out that not more work needs to be done, but it's a fairly comprehensive report We we outline what what we're talking about what transgender is what it's not

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We talk about the current context or we actually start with the story of Bruce Jenner and and talk through you know

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Why have we got to the point where someone like Jermaine Greer is on the outside of this conversation? I mean this how radical have we got so that we got this far

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We then go through that what we consider to be the biblical view of sex and gender pointing out that God created as male and Female we talk a bit about our embodiment as humans that bodies are important We're not just you know souls

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Floating around we have a body if we don't it's not it's not doesn't matter We actually we deny that view we talk about what identity in Christ means

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So we talk a little bit about justification and where that's coming from talk a bit about what it means to live as the church We then move into some medical scientific stuff.

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So we talk about the a theology That is the origins of transgender and gender dysphoria. And then we push our way through what the various medical

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Approaches are what historically has been done what the current trends are but most importantly what the statistics show and the research shows us that with children and and youth

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The most effective means of treating someone is is what we call watch and wait

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But interestingly enough when children present as transgender if you just wait until they've gone through puberty

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Almost ninety seven point five percent of them will will regress But it's to say they will just go back to a what you and I would consider to be a normal view of their own

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Gender and even then so that's a very small percentage of a very small percentage that will persist

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We talked through again about all the medical interventions you can do with with teenagers and again how that's not really helpful

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We go through the statistics on on outcomes for for adults as well. And we point out that Where transition does happen

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Chris, there's no statistically significant change to the rates of suicide and mental illness for Transsexual people so we just it's a it's a

10:40

I was gonna say gentle, but it's not it's quite a firm pushback Against some of the trends what we're trying to point out is that the shift in Treatment and the shift in the way that this is viewed is not based on science.

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It's not based on research It's based on a philosophical shift the one that we've already Outlined and then we didn't get time to talk about it yesterday, but I'd probably love less interest to your readers, but we work through What the law currently is in Australia.

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There's a little bit of drawing from other other jurisdictions, but we work that through and then come to some conclusions and recommendations

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And really what we're doing is we're trying to set out some basic policies and basic approaches that can then be applied

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Into into into various into various places and of course like any big religious organization we have schools

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We have other organizations where we need some clarity on how we're going to approach this topic

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And so we try and begin to provide that for for our for different organizations now was one of the reasons that the

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Sydney Australian Anglicans developed this Response or this report was to not only inform

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The leaders of congregations and their congregants, but also Perhaps even for legal protection is what we're tell us.

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What were the reason I'm not a lawyer and I don't speak as a lawyer or a spokesperson for the

12:11

Darcis But it seems to me for any organization where you're facing a new a new legal situation

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If you can have some general principles that your hierarchical structure has laid down And there's a sound and rational basis for them

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Then um, then I think you're in a stronger you're in a stronger position so now we've got a whole bunch of schools for example who fall under the umbrella of the

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Sydney Anglican Diocese who have a Bunch of general principles on form which they can act the next time someone comes and says yes

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I might present as a as a man as a boy with an X &Y chromosome But actually

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I want to be considered to be a girl and the parents go we want them to be considered to be a girl

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That school that that principal of the school now has some very clear principles with a very weighty

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Argument lying behind them as to why he ought to approach that matter in a in a certain way

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So yes, I suspect that that is that's going to be part of the application of What we've been doing

13:12

Now if I'm not mistaken where we left off yesterday was we didn't we just begin to enter into the area of the medical approach to gender dysphoria

13:23

Yes, so we began to work through some of that started to talk through some of the statistics the um

13:28

It's a very rich part of our report It's full of references to a whole bunch of different bits of research and work that have been done the the two

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Professional medical professionals I mentioned to you before Have done an incredible work compiling that Those couple of chapters where they've really gone through a quite comprehensive

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Outline of where the research actually is and what we actually do know and and I think that for me personally

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Being part of this work was the most helpful section, even though it's not the one that I wrote Because it actually made me go.

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Do you know what the Emperor's got no clothes on? There are people out there pushing transition and pushing reassignment and pushing re -identification, but actually

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The vast weight of the scientific evidence doesn't support that approach And so that's kind of where we left it and then we answered a few calls

14:23

From your from your listeners, but what we're trying to point out was again I think I've mentioned it before but this is not this is not driven by science.

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This is driven by by political Philosophical positions in in so in the social sciences academia not in the medical sciences academia and actually there are some prominent

14:45

Doctors in the field one particular gentleman from Johns Hopkins University And another gentleman, dr.

14:53

Kenneth Zucker In Toronto who have been hounded hounded out.

14:58

Sorry, not Zucker my apologies who have been hounded out of Their of their jobs

15:04

Yeah, sorry Zucker was he was actually fired for refusing to change his treatment in response to political pressure

15:10

He just said look I've been doing this for years and this is what I found to be most effective Why would

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I change when what you're telling me to do? Just doesn't match the facts on the ground

15:22

So it's very interesting Chris. That means that when your readers when you're listening Sorry, I'll have people say to them But the research says but the latest academics say the first question we're going to ask is well

15:31

What field of academics are they social scientists writing about political theory or are they actual?

15:39

Medical researchers in the medical in the medical field and as it turns out when you do the medical research

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It just doesn't support transition as a healthy way forward Yes, I mean, I don't know what

15:52

Happened in Australia, but I may have been a global thing. I'm not sure but here in the

15:58

United States historically Homosexuality was all always considered

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And of course, this is before there was something that was called transgenderism not that not that some kind of a phenomenon didn't exist, but it wasn't being called that and wasn't being

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Discussed as a separate issue. But you know as far back as psychology and psychiatry textbooks have been in print the the issue of Homosexuality was

16:35

Regarded as a mental disorder and that vanished from the textbooks

16:43

Here in the United States I Believe sometime in the 1970s.

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I don't have the date in front of me. Perhaps, you know, yeah, that's that's right Perhaps the best Record of that is a book by a gentleman called

16:56

Saturn over Homosexuality and the politics of truth. He quite Brilliantly shows how that happened and what the influences were and Yeah, he shows how the

17:09

American Psychological Association Basically changed its approach with no change in the research

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And so now you've got a whole bunch of people who have massive correlations with other mental illnesses

17:21

Who are not getting the help often that they need and not even being allowed to now say well

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I don't want to be this way. So what's really interesting? We're getting the first wave here. We have pressure on on On therapies for for men and women who who don't want to be same -sex attracted

17:38

So it's not just that you can't force someone to change which of course you can't that's wrong But it's it's it's now wrong

17:45

We're being told in Australia for for a psychologist for a therapist to even support someone in Wanting to deal with their unwanted same -sex attraction, you know that That kind of stuff is is quite shocking

17:59

Isn't it a therapist job is to support their client in in the transition the healthy transition that their client wants to make?

18:07

and if a client comes in and says I'm same -sex attracted and it is Distressing me and I want to be rid of it a therapist job if they have integrity is to say yes

18:18

I will help you work through why you don't want your same -sex attraction and what we can do about that or In good conscience to say no,

18:27

I need to pass you to someone on who's more comfortable more comfortable doing that But they should have the right to support that person in the choice that that person makes about their sexuality

18:37

Yeah, the thing that is so disturbing about this is that it is clear that a leftist movement is

18:49

Forcing Those in the medical field whether they be psychiatrists or otherwise

18:55

To go along with a political agenda regardless of what these doctors

19:03

Scientists etc believed to be true That's that's pretty scary when you have that kind of pressure upon physicians and the scientific

19:15

Absolutely. Let me go ahead. Let me read to you a couple of paragraphs from our report where we summarize this issue

19:20

So I'm reading from section 148 of the report now We say this the case for medical support of sex transitioning before adulthood is not evidence -based

19:30

And should not be supported by Christian health care providers This will put the Christian health care provider at odds with evolving views of gender identity in the current medical culture

19:40

However, there is scientific evidence that to avoid gender transition in the management of gender dysphoria is a reasonable choice

19:47

There is particularly good scientific evidence to reinforce the biological gender in young people, especially before puberty

19:54

Social pressure to impose a transgender ideology on those who do not support transitioning is unjust and Undemocratic as well as threatening professional integrity.

20:05

The purpose of medicine is to heal the sick not to collaborate with Psychiatric disorders.

20:11

That's probably a key sentence there Interventions to alter normal sexual anatomy to conform to transgender desires are disruptive to health

20:18

But that's the key issue, isn't it? The purpose of medicine is to heal the sick not to collaborate with psychiatric disorders and I don't know if this is accurate, but I just found out on some site that it was actually not until 1987 that the

20:38

Homosexuality was removed as a mental disorder from the psychiatric textbooks at least here in the

20:43

United States. I don't know if that reflects what you know about that issue, but I Would have put it earlier myself

20:50

Chris but nevertheless we are well into the period now where that is the that is the that is the question that is the way things are viewed and And what

20:58

America does usually the Western world follows? Eventually, so I'm looking forward to a president

21:05

Trump being in being elected here here in Australia at some point The That that article may have been regard to the last remnant perhaps in 1987

21:15

It could be it could be that kind of thing. Yeah well, let's go to Some of our listener questions and let me repeat.

21:23

Let's do that. Let me repeat our email address for any of you who Would like to join us on the air with a question of your own.

21:31

It's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com ch r is a r n z e n and gmail .com

21:38

Please give us your first name at least your city and state of residence in your country of residence if you live outside the

21:44

USA and Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter

21:52

We have Harrison and Mechanics Berg, Pennsylvania who asks

21:58

How can those who? affirm The rights of not only adults but children to change their genders allegedly through surgery and through drugs

22:12

How can these people in any way oppose those who desire to change

22:18

What species they belong to such as people who claim they are? certain types of animals and even there is one account at least of a person who had plastic surgery to resemble a dragon

22:34

So basically the person is saying, you know, where is this gonna stop? How can how can a person who affirms transgenderism as being completely acceptable?

22:45

How could they have any way how can they have a leg to stand on to oppose? Anything else that someone comes up with that they want to change about their identity or even what species they are

22:55

Not that they could actually change their species and not that they could actually change their gender in spite of what these folks who are in support of the

23:05

LGBTQ community say but do you have any responses to that? Are you there

23:13

David? Hello, David I'm sorry, Chris. I had my microphone muted.

23:19

I'm back on now. Hello Harrison and Fredericksburg beautiful town We drove through there about five or six years ago.

23:26

Actually, it's a mechanic. He's in Mechanics Mechanics Berg, so you have some great name towns there

23:34

It's a rhetorical question So it's a little bit hard to answer but in terms of the general principles that are being that are being raised.

23:40

I think Consistently they can't oppose it and it really comes back to this this queering

23:48

Principle that we talked about yesterday So we said that underlying all of this is what we call the queering principle, which is the deconstruction of of set constructs

23:57

So the the Christian and actually the conservative modernist So you don't have to be a

24:03

Christian to believe this but the Christian knows that God has made the world in a certain way With certain structures and one of the most fundamental structures in creation is actually the male -female binary in In humanity as the way that you read as you read the creation narrative in Genesis 1 no matter how you read it

24:21

Whether you read it as a literal Narrative or you read it as something slightly more poetic and symbolic not entering into that debate now

24:29

Chris But my point is whatever way you read it It's very clear that the the male -female binary is is

24:36

Embedded into creation and creation is full of these binaries And so it's an it's an inherent structure in the way the world is now

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We walk around saying that there are just inherent structures that are the way that the world is a man marries a woman

24:50

They have kids, you know, you have authority structures Adam in in in your government and all that kind of stuff and these things are inherent to the way things are

25:00

They're not just fabricated. They're not just Made up but the queerists the social

25:06

Marxists will say no. No, no they're all artificial and even the notion of male and femaleness is is artificial to put it crudely and we say this in in in in the report a man doesn't necessarily have a penis and to have

25:21

A penis doesn't necessarily make you be a man now at this point Either my brain just explodes and just goes that's that's ludicrous

25:28

But until you get your head around where they're coming from you'll never be able to respond to it properly

25:34

And so there's this great deconstruction going on. Why is that? Well, I was actually chatting to a politician here in Australia yesterday afternoon about it.

25:43

It's because we've become so self -centered Our we have this postmodern world Don't we where if we lose these external frameworks the only frame of reference that I have to understand the world is just myself

25:54

And my own perceptions. So how I understand the world and how I understand myself Becomes the truth.

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So when someone says to you are there's your truth and my truth again I'll mind bubbles and just goes no there's objective truth

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But what they're actually doing is is they're saying I have no frame of reference that I can appeal to Other than myself.

26:12

They actually don't know how to do it. That's just how they are So yes, you you have yourself as a frame of reference and and then you can decide to be who you want to be

26:21

So if I'm a man that decides actually I'm a woman then I'm a woman because that's the only frame of reference I have So therefore if I'm a man who decides he's a dog well

26:31

Then I'm a dog And so consistently. Yes, I think ultimately that's that's where you go

26:38

I think however, you get some pushback to that kind of rhetorical question where people would go. Well, there's a there's a there's a difference between Fluidity within humanity and a fluidity between all animals, but It depends where you draw the line.

26:52

You've got to draw a line at some point when you draw the line I'm always going to say Well, why are you drawing the line at that point and not at another point?

26:59

What's the basis on which you do so and I would guess the basis would be pretty inconsistent and as our mutually good friend

27:06

Dr. James White says inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument Yes, and of course,

27:12

I know that you meant that It's absurd for someone without a penis

27:18

To say that they are a man I know that you did not mean by that that if somebody had a surgery because of cancer or something and they had to have

27:26

Yeah, exactly. Yes, of course not and Because that person would be a man and may perhaps perhaps even more of a man than many people with genitalia

27:38

Absolutely, and I can tell you some stories of men who have if you like you have manned up Well in in various very difficult circumstances.

27:46

Yes It is and again, this is about it's a holistic thing, isn't it? So what we're actually saying is God has created us holistically

27:53

So also I am a man and that is about my DNA. It's about my my physical

28:00

Created or the intended creation of who I am. And so if something gets chopped off I'm still a man because it's an intrinsic holistic whole of Who I am

28:12

But if my body doesn't matter that it's all up for grabs Right, and I am going to forward to you an email so you could read it during our first station break and then

28:27

We will have you respond to it when we return from the station break It's I'm sending it to the only email address

28:34

I have for you. So I'm assuming that you would know where to look I don't know if you have multiple email addresses or not

28:40

They're all compiled in one mail reader Chris. Okay Well, what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna read it out loud now and you can mull it all you can mull it over during the break

28:49

And I'll repeat it when we come back. I Normally do not read the entire name of someone writing in But this person

28:59

I think I should read his whole name because of his connection with The Reformed Anglicans and so on and with his connection to ministry pastoral ministry

29:10

His name is Reverend Donald Philip Veitch, and I could be mispronouncing his name. I apologize

29:17

Reverend Donald if I'm mispronouncing your last name he is a retired

29:22

Marine Corps Navy chaplain and Reformed Anglican and prayer book churchman and He asks

29:29

David. Could you please? Give us a quick thumbnail sketch of how the Church of England and the

29:34

Episcopal Church USA ever got into this mess the bishops the seminaries the doctrine of Scripture thumbnail sketch and He is from Jacksonville, North Carolina in the

29:48

Camp Lejeune area So you will have that in front of you in a matter of seconds, and I will be going to a break right now

29:56

If anybody else would like to join us on the air our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

30:02

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com as always Please give us your first name city and state and country of residence if you live outside the good old

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So, please remember to tell Todd and Patty Jennings of CVB BS comm that you heard about them from Chris Arnz And an iron sharpens iron radio and if you purchase $50 or more with a merchandise and mention iron sharpens iron radio

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You'll get it absolutely free of charge by mentioning Chris Arnz and on iron sharpens iron radio Well, we are now back.

36:27

This is part two of a discussion. We began yesterday Here on iron sharpens iron radio on the transgender controversy the response from the

36:36

Sydney Australian Anglicans and our guests today To continue this topic is

36:41

David old who is senior associate minister at st. John's Anglican Cathedral in Parramatta, Australia and We have as I said before before the break we have a question from Reverend Donald Philip Veitch Who is from?

37:00

Jacksonville, North Carolina He's a retired Marine Corps and Navy chaplain and a reformed

37:06

Anglican and prayer book churchman And he said or asked David. Could you please?

37:12

Give us a quick thumbnail sketch of how the Church of England and the Episcopal Church USA ever got into this mess the bishops the seminaries the doctrine of Scripture thumbnail sketch

37:24

Sure. So, um, he's rather set us up with the question. Oh, hello. Hello Donald. Thank you for your question

37:30

I thank you for your service Ex -marine chaplain good on your mate So how to go in this mess?

37:36

Well, it's because things happen both officially and unofficially officially Church hierarchies in whatever way your particular

37:44

Provinces governed will make certain decisions. They'll affirm certain things They'll pass motions at synods and at councils

37:52

But also what happens is that facts are allowed to be established on the ground. So the way that the liberal

37:59

Progress always seems to happen in any denomination is by a salami slice method. So just a little bit at a time

38:05

Just gently moving along there will be a change of Of Theology and people's minds will come to why that is in a moment and then things start to be established on the ground you start

38:18

To see things happening and those in the in the hierarchy then don't do anything about it because they are in some way sympathetic

38:25

Or too cowardly to do anything about it and you build up a a groundswell of things happening until it

38:32

Moves its way through the official Legislative channels for one of a better description and then you get a new doctrine or a new policy or a new approach

38:41

Why do we end up there? It's always the seminaries. So remember the seminaries are what is turning around Men and now women in many denominations into church leadership and into other

38:54

Roles in the church the seminaries are where they're learning their theology They're having certain things affirmed and certain things denied

39:01

And so then you push people through a seminary then a minister leads a congregation and he teaches and and his his

39:10

His congregation will be heavily influenced by the teaching of the minister and and Chris I think the thing we've got to remember is most

39:17

Ministers in various ways love their people a lot of lips theologically liberal ministers

39:23

Love their people and they love them in the way that they understand They should love them So people always follow their leaders when they feel loved most people in pastoral ministry love their people

39:33

So people listen to their leaders and if the leader says well, yes, we respect the Bible It's it's it's

39:39

God's Word through the people that were speaking there at the time and this didn't actually literally happen to Jesus But it's it's a helpful picture for us of what the people at the time believed and that's our best bet at what they knew

39:51

And now of course the Holy Spirit helps us to see it just slightly differently Then if they're loved by this person and if they don't know any better That's where they'll go.

40:00

And so then you raise another generation who then go through the seminaries Affirming this stuff and it just gets diluted and diluted and diluted

40:08

Until you enter this point where it just seems natural where you just get these rampant heresies I mean, we've just got in the

40:13

Brisbane Diocese to the north of here We've just got the Archbishop affirming a priest who has transitioned from male to female and he's written this at Claire I mean, it's a pretty bland thing

40:23

But but but but the the whole theology is well God made me this way. I'm living into my true self, which is

40:31

Rampant rampant heresy. I mean Augustine was dealing with this stuff with Pelagius in the in the in the 5th century

40:37

I mean we were nailing this stuff down, you know No, you are not everything that you are is not how

40:42

God made you and yes Perhaps sin has ravaged us all in in various ways so that we are incapable of being who we're meant to be

40:50

And it's just another form of Pelagianism and and yet if you're not Aware of these things if you don't have great confidence in the scripture as a word of God as Jesus's word

40:59

Then you will you will wander away And we wander away because we would give would give way to other influences

41:05

And it's bad enough when when the liberals around us just just take over the establishment and teach untruth it's really quite scary when when when our evangelical brothers and sisters

41:20

Just start to dilute what they're saying. They just go. Oh, maybe there's another way of thinking about this Are they fear what other people would say about them?

41:28

They want to keep their superannuation and their pension schemes So they just knuckle down I got friends in the

41:34

Church of England today saying actually in the province of the of the Scottish Episcopal Church one guy yesterday was

41:40

Was saying look I just it's hard when the guys around me are just some of them are just caving in because you know

41:46

They've got five years to go to retirement and why would I compromise my pension? Well, you know,

41:51

I've got somewhere to live for five years. I've got my health insurance I've sat I've sat in the United States with Episcopal Church ministers who

42:00

I know one person in particular who had a family situation where if they if they did what they actually With integrity knew they had to do which is to leave the diocese.

42:08

They would have lost Health insurance for a sick family member and Chris. That's a huge huge thing, right?

42:14

So and all I could say is look it's easy for me because I'm just passing through but but do you love

42:20

Jesus? And do you think he loves you enough just to say no enough? I'm standing up against this but almost in that sense

42:27

It was too late and the Anglican Church in America, of course has formed a new a new province the Anglican Church of North America But they just couldn't remain anymore

42:35

And it's all because back in the 50s and the 60s the seminaries introduced liberal theology and nobody said no

42:42

So we have got to get in those seminaries. We've got to be leading the thrust on theological education

42:48

We've got to be making sure we're teaching our people. Well, I think it critically important Chris Um, I really get quite worried when people walk out of church and they go wasn't that a great sermon

42:58

David's taught us I really want them to go. Oh, I can see now in the Bible that You know,

43:04

I want people say David taught me to read the Bible I can see how that is what the Bible says so that they can then reproduce what the

43:12

Bible says Not what I said in the sermon on On Sunday, we all have a responsibility in our various Places where we're

43:20

Christians to ensure that that's happening So much so that it's Panama Cathedral We're going to be teaching through to Timothy after Easter and thinking about what it means to entrust reliable men the things that we have

43:33

Ourselves that didn't happen in the Church of England to some extent and certainly in the Episcopal Church USA and I'm the carnage all around us now is is testimony to that So that's interesting.

43:46

There was no pushback from Bible believing conservative

43:51

Anglicans or Episcopalians when the seminaries turned around unlike what happened

43:58

With the Presbyterians and other reformed bodies when Princeton started to collapse under the weight of leftism

44:05

Yeah, so I so I wonder I think it's easy Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Isn't it? Chris hindsight is a wonderful thing.

44:11

I think when it happens very slowly and Incrementally and you just get little shifts.

44:18

It's very hard to discern what's going on Afterwards, of course, you can see the downward slope, but at the time

44:24

I wonder for some of them it was just oh, yeah, this is a new interesting way of looking at things, you know, and so Reformed seminaries will dabble for example with with Karl Barth and Bartian ism

44:37

And and which I I think I can go in some really pretty unhelpful ways But at the same time the stuff isn't there about about the neo -orthodox guys from from the 20th century

44:47

That's actually quite fascinating and helpful So so for example Karl Barth's absolute emphasis on Jesus as the center of his theology

44:55

It's actually a very attractive thing, isn't it? And there's something there but as one as one doctrine

45:00

Lecture of mine at my own seminary said it's a great train ride to be on You just need to get off way before the last station

45:08

So the problem is when you're on the train itself It's harder to discern.

45:13

And so I want to have a little bit of sympathy for the guys. However, um What we do need to do actually now, however, is to be robust where we see it happening around us today

45:23

Is to be very very robust So one of the big questions for us as Anglicans is who is funding the seminaries in the in the developing world?

45:31

they unfortunately the Episcopal Church has a lot of money and a lot of it is coming from New York and New York City and They are trying to literally buy their way into Africa And so one of the things we are working hard at is supporting and encouraging seminaries in Africa to resist

45:49

American money And instead to and instead to link up with with people from other places and say that my my

45:56

Alma mater more theological college and Other places are working very hard to to build those relationships up When I was at our global conference of Anglicans about five years ago in Nairobi And I'm going to another one in June in Jerusalem which

46:10

I'm really looking forward to a lot of the work we were doing was to get to know people involved in theological education and And to link up and introduce

46:20

And it's not it's not the most attractive Kind of thing to be doing it would be nice to be hobnobbing with bishops and the rest of it

46:26

Chris If that's your kind of thing, but actually Fundamentally if we want to get this right if we want to learn from the past We have to capture the seminaries hold on to them and get the right men and women

46:37

In there and when I say men and women in seminaries again, I'm not going I'm not trying to have a debate About that thing take it up with John Piper Speaking more generally, let's get in there.

46:49

Let's get the right people in. Let's be teaching the right thing Let's not be being expedient. Let's not be being pragmatic at this point.

46:57

Let's um, let's learn from the past The Episcopal Church has gone to the dogs And that's okay.

47:02

I'll let them go But we are not gonna make that mistake again Yes, I cannot remember the last time

47:08

I hobnobbed with a bishop But Chris you're missing out

47:16

Being a Baptist that would be a very rare thing to occur Oh, you know what

47:21

Chris with respect Baptists have bishops as well. You just don't call them that yes and in fact it often baffles me why my

47:29

Brothers who are King James only Baptists Rarely ever in fact almost never.

47:36

I don't even know of one King James only Baptist pastor that refers to himself as a bishop Even though that's the word used in the

47:44

King James Bible. Obviously we use Overseer yeah, yeah and Elder and deacon elder and deacon are the only two offices in our in our book.

47:54

But anyway interesting Yeah, you actually don't have an overseer office. No the oak. Well, yes, we do overseer

48:00

An overseer is an elder which is a pastor. We believe I mean, I'm talking about the vast majority of Reform Baptists.

48:06

Anyway, I Only have two offices Elder and deacon and the elder is the same thing as an overseer or a bishop a pastor and you have some churches

48:18

Baptist churches in America at least that have a hybrid office. That's not biblical that their elders are really

48:26

More like deacons or their deacons are more really more like elders or they have a board of trustees or something like that But interesting enough

48:33

Chris, sorry to get distracted on this a friend of mine who's researching 16th century Reform theology in England noted the other day that there were a couple of English Divines of the late 16th century who liked the title superintendent

48:50

Rather than overseer because of the accretions that the the word overseer had received So they um, they now from from the continent that picked up the the term superintendent, but it rather died out

49:01

By 1600 and it is interesting. It's an interesting phenomenon that here in America at least

49:09

You would have and I'm sure that the majority if not all African -americans in ministry

49:17

Regardless of what side they are on whether they are liberal or more conservative or Bible -believing

49:24

Most African American churches in the United States would tend to lean

49:30

More to the liberal direction whereas In the Episcopal and Anglican Church, you have our black brothers and sisters in Africa who are the most conservative by far

49:42

Yeah, am I right on that? Mostly, yes. Yes, absolutely And so it just it's very interesting

49:50

So to answer Donald's question, no matter what title they take even if they call themselves chief toilet cleaner

49:55

Their job Their job is to hold fast to the trustworthy word.

50:01

I think that's what the Apostle says, doesn't it? and so that means that when we're training people we need to be really really clear that when we send them to be trained at A seminary that that is a good seminary and when we have any responsibility for for staffing a seminary

50:16

Putting its faculty in place that we get the very best people and we do not tolerate

50:22

Deviation from orthodoxy of any form because it just the damage it causes down the line is is um is

50:31

Is appalling as this issue and many others has demonstrated by the way,

50:37

I need to Make some kind of a clarification here here in the

50:42

United States, it's interesting that as Liberal as many in the quote -quote clergy are amongst african -american or predominantly african -american churches here in the

50:55

United States Many of them I don't know if it would be most of them but Many of them even if they were to be politically active and rallying support for nearly every liberal

51:10

Political candidate running for office in their area or in regards to the president of the

51:15

United States The even the liberal congregations many of them were very opposed to same -sex marriage being legalized and I have also been told by many african -american brothers and sisters that congregations

51:34

Tend to be a lot more Biblically Orthodox and conservative than their pastors and even many pastors tend to be more

51:46

Biblically orthodox orthodox and conservative than their denominations. So I just wanted to make that clarification before in my my my statements

51:55

I'm going to email you another Question that you can mull over during our 12 -minute break

52:04

This is from another North Carolinian and by the way, Reverend Donald Philip Veitch and you can send me a phonetic

52:13

Pronunciation of that name if I'm mispronouncing it But you have won by virtue of the fact that you are a new or should

52:20

I say first -time questioner? On iron trip and Zion radio you have won a free

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New American Standard Bible Compliments of the publishers of the NASB. So we need your full mailing address

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So that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CV bbs .com can ship that out to you as soon as possible

52:39

Thank you very much for contributing your contribution contributing your contribution contributing

52:45

Contributing your question today. Yes. I'm full of redundancies today And now we have another

52:52

North Carolinian. We have Hudson in Waxhaw, North Carolina I'm hoping

52:57

I'm pronouncing that correctly just pronouncing it the way it's spelled Waxhaw, North Carolina I Agree with you.

53:05

I'm sorry. I agree with what you have been saying, but can you tell me? What has to what it has to do with the specifics of reformed doctrine or Anglican tradition?

53:16

Is there something in the reformed understanding of sexuality or in the Anglican book of common prayer that is unique?

53:24

among conservative Christians an understanding an understanding that might pertain to transgenderism

53:32

Well, we'll have you respond to that when we come back to the break. And as I said, I'm gonna email you that question If anybody else would like to join us on the air

53:40

We still have a couple of you waiting to have your questions asked and answered and we'll get to as many of you as possible, but if you'd like to Join those who are already online and ask a question of your own.

53:50

Our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com Chris Arnson at gmail .com. Don't go away.

53:56

We'll be right back. I'm willing after this 12 -minute break With our guest David old and the trends gender controversy right after these messages

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I have just a couple more announcements to make before we return to our discussion with David old on the transgender controversy

01:05:14

The Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is once again going to be conducting the

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April 13th through the 15th at the first Christian Reform Church in Byron Center, Michigan The second is going to be held at the

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These speakers are Daniel Aiken Richard Gaffin Daniel Hyde Conrad M Bayway who

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I believe is the most powerful preacher on the planet Earth alive today Pastor of Kibwata Baptist Church in Lusaka, Zambia, Africa Richard Phillips another friend of mine from Second Presbyterian Church in Greenville, South Carolina Jonathan master who's been on this program a number of times

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David Murray who's been on this program as well a number of times and Scott Oliphant of Westminster Theological Seminary who we are hoping to get on the program soon

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That's the spirit of the age the age of the spirit the Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology Either the 13th or the 15th of April in Bryn in Byron Center, Michigan or from the 27th to the 29th in Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania go to Alliance net org

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01:08:44

Now we are back with our discussion back to our discussion with David old Senior associate minister at st.

01:08:51

John's Anglican Cathedral in Parramatta, Australia We are discussing part two of a topic we began yesterday

01:08:58

The transgender controversy the response from the Sydney Australian Anglicans our email address is

01:09:04

Chris Arnson at gmail .com Chris Arn is the energy mail .com

01:09:09

Please give us your first name city and state and country of residence if you live outside the USA and we have Hudson and Waxhaw North Carolina who says

01:09:17

I agree with what you have been saying But can you tell me what it has to do with the specifics of reformed doctrine or Anglican tradition?

01:09:26

Is there something in the reformed understanding of sexuality or in the Anglican book of common prayer that is unique among?

01:09:33

conservative Christians an understanding that might pertain to Transgenderism, there you go,

01:09:39

David. Oh, wow. What a great question Chris Fascinating now in terms of Anglicanism, I would go no not particularly but we'll return to how

01:09:48

Anglicanism expresses reform theology I want to give you a couple of examples at the end Anglicanism really is more about Polity more than anything else sort of stuff we talked about before the break how we structure our leadership that kind of thing

01:10:00

But when it comes to reform theology, I think reform theology is incredibly helpful for working our way through this because it's only in reform theology that you get a proper

01:10:10

Anthropology and dare I say I mean he's another big word Hermitology that is to say a doctrine of sin that really helps me engage with this issue, so The way that the

01:10:23

Anglican Church Expresses its its theology is through the third nine articles and through our prayer book

01:10:29

So the third nine articles are really really clear on some things that are very important in this debate What you got to do

01:10:35

I think in these new issues is take your groundwork your ground basic doctrine and I'm see how they

01:10:41

Apply themselves into the debate and and and over the past three hours of discussion Chris We've we've talked particularly in the theology section about how

01:10:50

How we were created as male and female and that's a good thing how sin has ravaged humanity

01:10:57

What that means and we've talked about what it means when you get that wrong And so reform theology helps me as a great control now as an

01:11:03

Anglican my reform theology helps me in a number of ways So article two of the third nine articles teaches me that that Jesus in the incarnation took man's nature

01:11:14

So it's a great affirmation of our creative nature as man It tells me that in his resurrection article for he took again his body with flesh bones and all things

01:11:23

Appertaining to the perfection of man's nature. So there I've got reinforced this notion that that there is a there is a created humanity a nature to which

01:11:34

I am and and and to which I am heading in in in my in my Resurrection and that's a good thing

01:11:40

And therefore something to be something to be desired It affirms the articles of firm article six the sufficiency of the scriptures, which is of course is vitally important if I'm going to work anything out

01:11:51

Theologically and then actually like any good reformed theology. It works its way really really

01:11:59

Plainly through issues of sin. So there's a whole article on original or births thin and which directly repudiates

01:12:07

Pelagianism And talks about the corruption of our nature It talks about this infection of nature doth remain yay in them that are regenerate

01:12:17

Whereby the lust of the flesh called in Greek for a Noma Sarkis which some do expound the wisdom some sensuality some the affection some the desire of the flesh is not subject to the law of God and although there is no condemnation for them that believe and are baptized yet The Apostle doth confess that concupiscence and lust have of itself the nature of sin.

01:12:39

Now, that's big words It's actually really important Chris that I remember that even though I am justified even though I am saved my sinful nature

01:12:47

Remains and I've already defined that sinful nature in the article is not just the bad things that I do

01:12:52

But as as an infection of nature Something that's gone wrong with me.

01:12:58

And so actually that means that I can look at things like disordered desires such as we might believe that a

01:13:06

Transgenderism is and we can come to a right understanding of it. We can say yes

01:13:12

This is this is a corruption of of the nature. This is not who we were meant to be And work it through in that way what

01:13:22

I'd be fascinated as well about in my own Anglican heritage is is

01:13:28

Cranmer who is the original Archbishop first Archbishop of Canterbury under under the

01:13:34

Church of England as it became when it broke away from Rome Cranmer contributed a huge amount of the of the

01:13:39

Book of Common Prayer not least collects little prayers that collect together an idea and and and pray it and and his colleagues are great to to to Are great to read through and there's a new one every week or for every every feast day

01:13:55

Let me read to you the collect from the second Sunday in Lent which was read just a few Weeks ago and just see how this actually helps us because he the great thing about Cranmer is he has a great holistic view of The Christian life listen to this almighty

01:14:08

God who see us that we have no power of ourselves to help ourselves keep us outwardly in our bodies and inwardly in our souls

01:14:17

That we may be defended from all adversities which may happen to the body and from all evil thoughts which may assault and hurt the soul through Jesus Christ our

01:14:26

Lord and all God's people said Amen, but what's great about that? do you see is that holistic view of the

01:14:32

Christian life that there is my body and what happens to it and and what he calls The the adversities which may happen to the body, but there is also my soul so so so there's there's that internal part of me that eternal part of me that will that will last after my death and be

01:14:49

Reunited with it with a resurrection body and Cranmer helpfully because his theology is right because he's because he understands that I had created in a certain way

01:14:58

But he also understands that sin will affect me both outward and in He wants me to pray holistically as well for the totality of my body now if I take that kind of theology

01:15:08

And I then take it into Into this this debate on the transgender. I I must come to particular conclusions

01:15:15

You see I must I must say it doesn't it matters what happens to my it matters what happens to my body

01:15:22

It's not it's not inflexible. Yeah, so it's not flexible. It's not fluid I can't have one sort of soul and a different kind of body if you'd like There's an integration to it all my humanity is grounded in in in the great model of the

01:15:37

Lord Jesus Christ My hope is the resurrected body of the Lord Jesus Christ in the meantime

01:15:44

Realistic about sin and what it's done to my body and I'm also realistic. I think this is important pastorally Chris.

01:15:49

I'm also realistic that For the Christian transgender person, which

01:15:55

I realized for some of your listeners You see they will go there can't be such a thing and I want to go.

01:16:00

Well, yes, there is and there will be Christians out there people who are regenerate of the

01:16:07

Holy Spirit Who are men who think them who think that they should be women?

01:16:14

Women who think that they should be men now, they won't they won't be saying yes I just give way to this and I just I just I just go for it, but that desire will still be there

01:16:22

It'll be a small number of people but it will be there and and to say that cannot possibly be the case

01:16:27

It's actually didn't I are reformed theology Chris It's actually become a perfectionist, isn't it to become a moral perfectionist to go down that purity line?

01:16:34

That says when I get converted everything is sorted out. Well, no, it's not You and I walk around every day

01:16:40

With simple desire or we don't feed it or we seek not to feed it anyway, but it's still there

01:16:47

We're still messed up You and I are longing for the day when Jesus returns and everything is made as it should be and I go to be part

01:16:53

Of them of the new creation where there isn't there for no more tears. No more death

01:16:59

None of the corruption, you know, the what does Paul call it in Romans 8 the glorious freedom of the sons of God What a wonderful day that will be but we don't have that now we have the promise of it now

01:17:10

And so that and it helps me actually pastorally deal with people who are feeling these things

01:17:16

There will be people in our in our churches Not many of them but some there who are feeling these things and and only

01:17:23

I think a good robust reform theology Allows me allows me to to respond to them if I finish with Luther.

01:17:29

What does Luther say? Simil justus et prakator So I am at the same time justified yet still a sinner

01:17:36

That counts for our for our brothers and sisters who experience these transgender desires and thoughts

01:17:43

They are if they are if they are justified they are justified and yet the ravages of sin are still there and we need to find helpful pastorally sensitive ways of yearning with them for the new creation

01:17:57

By the way, if our listeners want to learn more about Thomas Cramner I Did a couple of interviews with dr.

01:18:05

Ashley null who is an Anglican scholar and specifically a

01:18:12

Cramner scholar perhaps the most learned of all living Cramner scholars He would never describe himself that way.

01:18:19

In fact, he has lovingly rebuked me for doing so on the air But I I think that is a case that is easily made that he is among the

01:18:28

The most learned to Cramner scholars alive today Well, you can hear those interviews on the podcast past programs section archived at iron trip and Zion radio .com

01:18:41

Just type in null and as a Nancy you LL in the search engine and you will get all of the interviews that we did with Dr.

01:18:51

Ashley null who is now in Berlin and the

01:18:57

I am planning on doing at least a week a week's worth of special programs on the major confessions of Reformed theology which would not only include the 39 articles of religion

01:19:13

But the Westminster Confession of Faith the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith three forms of unity and the

01:19:20

Savoy Declaration and I believe I'm going to have dr.

01:19:25

Ashley null Speak about the 39 articles during that series And by the way, it wasn't

01:19:31

Cramner such a fascinating hero from church history not to divert the issue here too much but the fact that he

01:19:41

Originally out of fear for his life when after the death of King Henry the eighth when the throne returned to Roman Catholicism Fear for his life.

01:19:50

He recanted his Protestant faith and then later when his conscience Overwhelmed overwhelmed him with guilt.

01:19:58

He recanted his recantation and when he was being executed Before he was burned alive

01:20:04

He requested that the hand that signed his recantation of Protestantism be burned first.

01:20:10

Isn't that pretty remark? Yeah, he he finished Well, Chris, he's one of my it's one of my great heroes Anglicanism has a number of great heroes of the faith

01:20:20

Kramer one of the first great great man. That's right. He Bottled it for a while.

01:20:26

He he succumbed for a while out of fear and then was strengthened Queen Mary made a big big mistake

01:20:34

When she imprisoned Cranmer and some other bishops principally Latimer and Ridley for a while They were imprisoned together in the tower

01:20:42

The Tower of London that is a big big mistake put three reformed men together What are they going to do pray and encourage each other with the gospel?

01:20:50

So Cranmer actually he weakened after Latimer and Ridley were executed Then he was on his own and then he weakened for a while and he did recant

01:20:58

But then at his trial he They put on a show trial for him in Oxford.

01:21:03

I think st. Mary's Church. I actually last year I visited there in Oxford the place where his show trial was and they they thought that he was going to repeat his recantation

01:21:14

And yet he he got up and he said now to the matter that has troubled me the most and he decried the

01:21:19

Pope And he called out, you know called the great biblical faith out again And so they they run him off to the pyre to burn him and he said this foul hand

01:21:30

This hand which which which wrote the recantation burn it first. So he died.

01:21:35

He died really well amen, and We are going to go to our final break right now

01:21:41

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01:30:44

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Z n at gmail .com. Please. Give us your first name city and state and country of residence if you live outside the

01:30:55

USA and But I before I go to any of our listener questions

01:31:03

I know that you wanted to enter into a different phase of the discussion today the if you could

01:31:12

David go into the next phase of this report that you want to show. I think Thanks, Chris, because I think it's important to point out that after you've done all the groundwork

01:31:21

You've laid down your biblical worldview. You've analyzed the background. You've done the science You've come to some conclusions there.

01:31:28

You actually need to go somewhere with it So this is no good for the churches unless it's any good for the church.

01:31:33

We've got some practical ways forward So the the report we're discussing ends with some general with some general principles

01:31:40

Which I think are really really helpful I might just be worth pointing them out there in section 9 of the of the report and we begin where you have to begin

01:31:48

Which is that the promise of the gospel is that all those who trust in Christ are assured of? Existential peace we are we are very clear in our language there and wholeness in the resurrection life of a new creation

01:32:00

So we we want to be clear right from the start. It's what we discussed before the break That Christian hope is not

01:32:07

You know every every day of Friday It is it is God may be kind to us in this life and may give us wonderful wonderful things

01:32:15

But but the genuine Christian hope for which we all yearn in the spirit Romans 8 is for for the new creation

01:32:21

That's where the hope is We want to affirm that those who have faith in Christ are loved by God and that includes those whose personal trial includes gender identity

01:32:31

Issues so such people therefore deserve our own compassion love and care we then affirm the the principles of How God made us main and female we affirm the principle of damage and distortion in the fall

01:32:45

We affirm the important principle that God has compassion on the weak and the vulnerable we affirm the psychosomatic

01:32:52

Unity of the body that is to say body and soul Holistically belong together We affirm that we want to embrace the binary distinctions of male and female and important We affirm that our organizations churches schools

01:33:05

Whatever they may be are places where all people including those who experience gender identity issues are welcomed loved and supported and Helped to live in obedience to Christ.

01:33:15

It's really important, isn't it? But we again we break down this nonsense that loving someone means I must always affirm everything that they do

01:33:22

To love someone is to point me towards Christ And what's that going to look like or practical love looks like we say faithfulness to the teaching of the

01:33:30

Bible compassion and active love care and support rejection of bullying and abuse evidence based pathways for treatment which are consistent with Scripture and Ensuring that our churches and organizations are adequately informed about these issues and the relevant teaching of the

01:33:47

Bible The last thing is really important Chris I think most of the people that I begin to have conversations with this out in the churches

01:33:54

Really don't understand what the issue is. They actually don't understand what transgenderism is how

01:34:00

What's going on for people when they express? Gender incongruence and so the first thing we've got to do is is to understand what's going on As well as understand what the

01:34:10

Bible says understand what the scientific outcomes are and so we try to put together this framework For how to start applying it into into into the the life of the church

01:34:20

Together and then next year. We're hoping to come back with some Far more rigorous and detailed principles of application for the various different Bodies that are part of our big

01:34:31

Anglican family Yes, and you say that we need to understand these issues But I'm sure you what you mean by that as best as we can because I don't think anybody really understands it

01:34:41

Not fully in fact those those who are transgendered or claim to be I should say Probably understand it the least

01:34:49

They know what they're going through the best but they probably understand what is really going on the least and those supporting them and Encouraging them and manipulating them and using them

01:35:02

As fodder for a political platform and and so on they are probably in fact

01:35:07

I would say certainly the least knowledgeable of what is really going on Oh totally so so the activists in the field are the real

01:35:15

I hesitate to use the word enemy here But they're the real people we we want to watch out for what

01:35:21

I mean Is just that more general pastoral sense Chris and you'll notice as well and many of your listeners will be aware of this

01:35:26

But I go into most pastoral situations, and I can't help But have already have a view on what's going on and therefore what this person's motivations are why they've ended up in the place

01:35:37

Where they are and yet wisdom teaches me doesn't it as well as the scriptures interestingly enough teaches me

01:35:43

What might be best just at the start is just to stop and listen for a little bit longer and just hear a person out

01:35:50

Hear their story listen to what they're saying seek to understand them on their own terms to some extent so that When I finally open my mouth if I must and sometimes

01:36:02

I don't need to I'm better informed I'm better able to love this person in front of me

01:36:08

Having understood their story and where they're actually coming to and so then the words that I say will start to engage with with their

01:36:15

Assessment of where they're at now their assessment of where they're at may not be correct But I need to understand what they really think is going on before I can move them to the place where I think

01:36:27

They they they they should be it just doesn't help when we when we we crash in blindly without Hearing where people are at these are individuals made in the image of God Loved by God God does not delight in the death of a sinner.

01:36:43

We talked about that yesterday didn't we Chris? And and so I need to love them like God loves them

01:36:48

Which is to know them intimately if necessary so I can love them as best I can We have an anonymous listener

01:36:56

Who says I heard you say earlier that the best thing we can do as parents is watch and wait

01:37:03

I can tell you there is no way on the face of the earth that I am going to watch and wait while my son

01:37:11

Begins dressing up like a girl and permit him to do that. I am going to forbid any kind of action like that and Enforce a rule in my home that the son always dresses like a young boy should what is your reaction to what

01:37:26

I just said? Well, it's said with some passion isn't it Chris, and I think

01:37:32

I want to be very very careful So so hear me right when I say watch and wait So what we know is that for let me repeat this but for about ninety seven and a half percent of Of children who express a genuine sort of gender incongruence that is to say they genuinely say of their own volition

01:37:55

I Think I'm the opposite sex of course a child will say it slightly differently a boy will say I think I'm a girl of those prepubescence

01:38:04

About ninety seven and a half percent will revert by the end of puberty to their to their

01:38:11

Biological sex they will just revert naturally about is to say it's a phase If that's the case

01:38:18

Then then we need to just be patient with them. They will grow out of it now

01:38:24

You may want to set your rules You may want to set your rules and parenting is very very hard. I've got three kids of my own

01:38:30

I know, you know, it's so easy to be an expert on everyone else's children And not get your own right

01:38:36

It's so easy to know what the principles are but not to apply them in your in your home So you've got to work out what the rules are in your own home

01:38:42

But I think what we've got to understand is that sometimes children will play So actually there is nothing wrong with a child

01:38:50

Dressing up in in cross -gender clothes, there's nothing wrong with that in and of itself if it's just playing

01:38:58

I mean, you know We do that in all sorts of different ways and we've got to be careful that we're not placing too tight a constraint

01:39:07

Most little boys if they dress up in a dress just to play Know that they're playing and they get bored of it very very quickly and they actually want to go back to wearing whatever

01:39:17

Boys wear in your cultural context, which in itself is an important thing cultural context is really really important But let me be a very small minority for him.

01:39:25

It's a genuine transgender thing I would say this is just my general general pastoral advice as a minister

01:39:33

Unnecessarily Restricting your children in this way if it's just a general interest

01:39:39

May actually cause them to be more interested in the thing that you say no to So if your little boy if your eight -year -old says, you know, well,

01:39:46

I'm gonna wear a dress today um, I would say let him wear a dress around the home that day if you want to and and Treat it for the silliness that it is now

01:39:56

Of course should they be going outside to the mall shopping mall with that on I would say no

01:40:01

And I'm certainly not going to take them out in something that's not appropriate for them in the same way that with my teenage

01:40:07

Daughter, I don't let her wear some clothes for different reasons that aren't appropriate But You know to me but letting your because actually

01:40:15

I have her dignity. I have her dignity as one of my priorities Well letting but letting your boy just wear a dress for a day around that around the house

01:40:24

Let him get out of the system. Let him see what it's like. I mean kids are curious, right? Just let him see what it's like mostly

01:40:29

Here's the thing we've been led to be really scared about this issue because the activists have said oh

01:40:34

If a boy puts on a dress, oh, he's transgender. And so as a parent I go. Oh my boys transgender

01:40:40

And I actually want to go. No, he's not He's just probably a boy who wants to see what it's like to wear a dress because all the girls around him wear dresses

01:40:47

So let him put a dress on and then and after a bit you can say to him It's not that much fun.

01:40:52

Is it and he'll go? Nah, it's not I'd say go. Okay, let's put our regular clothes back on again.

01:40:58

Do I mean like almost? Let's not let let's not let the activists set the agenda for this. Let's sit a bit loose to it

01:41:04

It's okay in the vast majority of cases. It's it's it's not going to be an issue I am

01:41:10

NOT a parent, but I I believe right now with every fiber of my being

01:41:17

I know and then I'm of course I'm speaking as one who has no children but I Think that if I did have children,

01:41:26

I am actually certain right now as I sit here that if my son No matter how old he was or young was wearing a dress.

01:41:35

I Would not scream at him and throw something at him or throw him against the wall or doing anything violent or smack him but I would say

01:41:44

Did you know that the Bible says that that's wrong? And I would open up the scriptures to that child and clearly point out to the child in a very calm way

01:41:54

I would hope that I would be calm and patient and loving in the way I would do this But I believe that that's the way

01:42:01

I would react I would say, you know, the Bible says God says you're not supposed to do that Honey, so please, you know put your pants back on and take the dress off or vice versa

01:42:10

I should say take the dress off and put the pants back on now Yeah, but Chris, I think what I want to say is if it was a persistent behavior

01:42:18

Then I'd be absolutely I'd absolutely I'd absolutely be with you. But if it's just a one -off playing

01:42:25

We actually do a whole bunch of things that are not the norm in play

01:42:32

I'm Recognizing that it's play. And so I think I think maybe this is where we're going to disagree.

01:42:39

I think the biblical Proscription is against that that ingrained saying

01:42:44

I am a woman I mean that we point out in that we point out in the in the report itself

01:42:50

Where the scriptures clearly make that distinction where they clearly say it is not right to to distort that But we do a whole bunch of stuff just in play

01:42:59

I think what I'm trying to say is let's not overreact to children just being children

01:43:05

Because I fear that by doing so we're actually playing into the agenda of the activists rather than as we think so actually

01:43:13

Opposing them. However, let me just say I am the parent of my children and every parent needs to decide for themselves

01:43:20

What is best for their children? So let me affirm that at the end. You are answerable to God for your children

01:43:27

I am NOT so I'll have my say I'll set up my principles But you must do what you in good conscience think is best for your children

01:43:35

Yeah, believe it or not. I had a conversation that is not related to children About this, but I was interviewed by an

01:43:44

African American brother in Christ who has his own podcast Dwayne Atkinson, I don't know if you know

01:43:51

Dwayne. He has a program called The bar which stands for biblical and reformed and He during the interview while he was interviewing me at the g3 conference, he mentioned how angry he is over Oh boy, his name just flew out of my head very famous black

01:44:13

Actor and movie director and producer and screenplay writer. I can't think of his name.

01:44:18

He went from rags to riches And he does the Madea Series of movies

01:44:24

Maybe you don't have them in Australia. No, I'm not aware of him Chris. Okay. Well he this male actor dresses as Madea in in the movies

01:44:37

When Madea is supposed to be a grandmotherly figure a very sassy black grandmotherly figure and The the figure that the character is not supposed to look like an attractive woman.

01:44:49

I mean, it's a comma It's a comical Character, so I I did not take is nearly as aggressive an attitude against What a

01:44:59

Tyler Tyler somebody? Tyler Perry, I don't know. Anyway, I Did I did not take it nearly as aggressive an attitude against what

01:45:10

Tyler was doing? in these movies and Because I realized yes, it is

01:45:18

Tyler Perry. I Realized that he is not trying to look sexually attractive to men as a woman dressed in a woman's clothing

01:45:26

He is intended to look hilariously funny and you know, he is morbidly obese elderly woman in the character and also, it harkens back to people like Milton Berle and others who used to in a comic comic way dress in a woman's outfit

01:45:47

But nobody took the person seriously as if they were trying to look sexy now flip Well, I mean flip

01:45:52

Wilson on the other hand was another story Example Dame Edna Everidge is a global megastar, right?

01:45:58

Do you have Dame Edna Everidge in in America? Yes, I've seen Barry Humphreys is the name of the comedian and he and one of his persona stage personas is

01:46:08

Dame Edna Everidge brilliant brilliant comedy act Chris Dressed up as a most grotesquely overdone woman.

01:46:18

Nobody would ever think that Barry Humphreys thinks he's a woman Let's see we have

01:46:25

Christopher in Suffolk County, Long Island, New York who asks

01:46:32

Do all? Episcopalian and Anglican bodies still have on paper the 39 articles as their creed and Just ignore the 39 articles or have most of these churches and denominations and bodies utterly abandoned them officially

01:46:54

Very briefly No Some have effectively abandoned them or they speak about them as historical documents

01:47:01

The Episcopal Church has effectively abandoned them the Church of England now requires its ordinance to affirm

01:47:08

The I think the correct language is affirm the 39 articles as a historical Document of our faith, which is such a bland

01:47:16

Weasley word kind of statement that you can make of it what you want here in the Anglican Church of Australia Our Constitution still refers to the 39 articles as our standard of doctrine now whether clergy and bishops

01:47:29

Arounders actually believe that and act consistently with it Even though it's one of the fundamental points of the

01:47:35

Constitution is a matter for great concern for many of us I do remember writing a piece a number of years ago about one prominent lay person here who decried the

01:47:45

Sydney Anglicans as un -Anglican and gave her definition of Anglican and my only response to her on a blog piece was well when

01:47:51

I read the Constitution of the Anglican Church of Australia It says that this is our definition of Anglicanism which includes the 39 articles

01:47:58

I've made that point in discussion groups in general synod with with bishops who have said things like well

01:48:05

We're not talking about that now. Let's move on so Yes for some places. It's official some places actually believe it

01:48:11

So the Church in Nigeria, for example has made that the central issue the 39 articles And and and ascribes to it and they are wholehearted about it here in Australia.

01:48:21

It's official Some of us are wholehearted some of us are not and in other places it is it is a mere historical

01:48:29

Document of some interest but not to be held as a policy. Let's see.

01:48:35

We have Christian in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania who says

01:48:42

I've heard a lot of Aussies before but you sound very different. Are you actually a native

01:48:48

Australian? By the way, my my pronouncing. Well, how do you how do you pronounce it? Is that softer so you do it the same way that James White does and I do try and correct him regularly

01:48:56

It's not worked Aussie. It's it's it's softer or Australia. It's an Aussie, but they don't tend to call it themselves

01:49:03

Aussies here, really We're We're Australians. I'm a

01:49:09

British I'm still a British citizen. Actually my passport my passport renewal was just confirmed this morning by email

01:49:15

I'm a British citizen living in Australia as a permanent resident here. So that's why you notice

01:49:20

I don't have an accent This is what real English is meant to sound like I Would be years here in Australia we've been here for 14 years.

01:49:33

We love the place. It's it's our home now It's where our children were raised We dearly dearly love the place.

01:49:40

But yes, my accent is originally from the UK Tempered with a little bit of time in the

01:49:45

States sometime in Singapore where my beautiful wife is from and much time in Australia we have

01:49:54

Let's see here We have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania Who says don't you think it can be very dangerous and problematic?

01:50:06

to treat people who are involved in certain types of sins like transgenderism and homosexuality with a lot more tenderness and patience and sweetness than we would with a drug addict or a

01:50:23

Drunkard or a person involved in whoremongering etc It seems to me that many who are involved in the homosexual acts are being pampered by Christians far too much

01:50:36

I'm not saying we should hate them I'm not saying that we should be cruel to them But we must be truthful to them and always bring up the fact that they need to repent

01:50:47

Well Arnie, I don't think they're mutually exclusive. I'm going to push back a little bit at your question

01:50:54

With with gentle respect. I don't think they're mutually exclusive Chris the last five years of my ministry before Paramatta was spent when we last spoke

01:51:02

I was in an area called Macquarie fields in the southwest of Sydney Which is an area of what you might call social disadvantage and every day

01:51:10

I was meeting people for whom life was just really really hard. There was a Generational Issues going on in that place for many people and you would sit down and you would hear people's stories and they were horrendous

01:51:22

Um only last month I was in court for the sentencing of a man in his late 30s who

01:51:29

At the time he committed his crimes had returned to heroin And was committing crimes to fund his addiction and had committed a whole bunch of pretty

01:51:39

Horrible there were there were thefts so there were no there were no personal attacks against individuals There are a whole bunch of thefts

01:51:44

But he he'd stolen from old people's homes and from teachers at primary schools and so forth and Chris It's really easy just to drop the hammer

01:51:53

But actually when you hear this man's story you actually realize there is a sense in which

01:51:59

He he had very little control over what was going on for him. I don't want to share his personal story now

01:52:06

It's not my right on a public thing to share his the details of his pub of his public store of his personal story

01:52:12

But you've just got it. I think you've just got to step back and just go When someone's life is really really difficult

01:52:20

I need to meet them with great great compassion and again we talked about this yesterday the

01:52:26

Lord Jesus Christ meets Terrible sinners around him with amazing compassion

01:52:33

Now he's wise and winsome about how he does it sometimes he's quite clever about how he does it another way

01:52:39

So for example the woman at the well That he meets in in Samaria in John 4 I mean that line the man is not your husband and indeed you've had six husbands or five husbands.

01:52:49

I think he says Like it's a telling line, isn't it? I mean he just he's just taken as rude by many people

01:52:58

Now she has been complicit in sin Quite clearly and yet also much sinned against I mean

01:53:05

I mean You know just get the reality of this situation a woman there in the middle of the day drawing water in the middle of the day

01:53:11

Because there's no other time she can do it without someone, you know pointing and laughing at her No one else is there.

01:53:17

She she meets this man and he he he Opens up her life for all the shame.

01:53:25

It must have been for her. She's gone from man to man How much of that is her choosing to go man to man how much of that is her being passed on?

01:53:33

We never quite know, but he just he loves her, but he loves her and opens up her life.

01:53:38

And what does she do? She runs back to town Where she's probably an outcast that kind of life and says come meet the man who told me about everything

01:53:47

I've ever done So it's Jeremy like it's incredible He loves her and it opens up her life and she's not afraid to have her life opened up Jesus saves his

01:54:00

Sharpness for the Pharisees for the if you like for the philosophical activists of his day the people who

01:54:07

Put the burdens on other people the people who set the impossible standards the people who are the false shepherds who lead the sheep to their

01:54:16

Death plummeting over the cliffs. That's where the harshness is for if in doubt

01:54:21

Chris grace This is a big principle. I think of pastoral ministry I just need to keep reminding myself if in doubt

01:54:30

Grace, the Lord Jesus Christ is consistently gracious He is never anything but clear on sin, but he is consistently gracious.

01:54:38

So if in doubt Grace, and and I think it took me five years living in a place

01:54:44

Where you just day after day heard the horrible stories of people and I just went it's what

01:54:49

I said earlier about hearing people's stories We've just got to spend a bit more time understand why they are the way that they are

01:54:57

Sympathize with the pain that they're feeling and then Show them The man who can help them which is not me or you.

01:55:05

It's the Lord Jesus Christ Yes, well, I would agree with you that we should be gracious with those enslaved to sin but yeah,

01:55:15

I don't we don't have a recording of the Apostle Paul's voice when he was Addressing the

01:55:22

The crowd there in 1st Corinthians chapter 6 9 through 11 We don't

01:55:27

I'm assuming that he was not screaming at them with veins popping out of his neck He was

01:55:33

I'm assuming very gracious in his tone and manner, but he did he did warn that people involved in those activities and Homosexuality is included with a host of other

01:55:48

Very horrible sins that even those involved with homosexuality would say wow, yeah, that's a horrible sin

01:55:57

My point is that when he writes the Thessalonians He says, you know how we lived amongst you like a mother caring for for her children

01:56:03

So so yes in in the public speeches that were recorded for us. We've got clarity. We've got it there

01:56:09

But we've also got we've also got Paul Also showing us the Interpersonal side of pastoral ministry as well

01:56:17

And I think we just need to be just really careful about that the interplay between the two we like Christians in the

01:56:24

Western culture like to be clear on things and dogmatic on them and we see so many things being eroded around us that we that we instinctively push back and we push back by being clear and firm on things and and What's going on even in this in these interactions on on on this podcast is as I set a clear reformed agenda

01:56:47

I hope and clarity on this issue, but a perhaps a gentler pastoral response

01:56:53

Then some people are used to there's an immediate sort of gentle pushback on that. Well intended Let me tell you why

01:56:59

I'm gentle in my response. It's because I'm actually confident in what the truth is I'm actually confident that I don't need to Immediately jump and assert if I'm confident in the reality of what's going on here

01:57:10

I've done my homework if I know the medical background if I if I can if I know that actually I can watch and wait

01:57:16

For example with a small child and if ultimately I'm confident in the Lord Jesus Christ and his return

01:57:21

And that all things are sorted out then I need to point people towards him I can just sit a little bit easy on my need to be assertively dogmatic and I wonder if part of it is simply just a cultural difference between where most of your listeners are from and and where I'm from just in the way that we

01:57:36

We talk about these things each one of us is gonna have to work it out in their own context And do what they think is best to be faithful In in that context and I mean that not just to defend my own position

01:57:48

But actually to to give a sense of agency to your listeners as well They've got to work it out for themselves and do what they think is best

01:57:55

Well, I want to make sure once again that our listeners have all your contact information I know your personal website is

01:58:00

David old net and that's David Oh you LD net and I know and I know that the website for st.

01:58:09

John's Anglican Church Where you serve as the associate or senior associate minister at st.

01:58:15

John's Anglican Cathedral I should say in Parramatta, Australia That website is st.

01:58:21

John's cathedral org dot a you at st John's cathedral org dot a you and Saint is abbreviated st

01:58:30

And there's no periods or spaces in that any other contact information that you care to give our listeners

01:58:36

That's probably it for now If you go to the website, you can see the the pieces on the transgender issue that I've been writing most recently

01:58:45

I'll also send you a link Chris so you can point your Your listeners to that directly from from the web page that you put to put this podcast up on Yes, and you have a direct links specifically to the report of the

01:58:58

Sydney Australian Anglicans to the transgender issue Well, I want to thank you so much David.

01:59:04

It has been a joy It has been fascinating and I look forward to having you back on a multitude of other subjects in the very near future and very often

01:59:13

Keep in mind folks tomorrow and Monday. We have dr. Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary returning to iron sharpens on radio

01:59:21

He's going to be critiquing my debate with the British barrister James Bogle on Roman Catholicism that took place on the unbelievable radio program in the

01:59:32

UK We are going to play that debate and we're gonna have dr. Tony Costa Who is the professor of apologetics at Toronto Baptist Seminary give his assessment of it?