November 26, 2018 Show with Lowell Ivey on “Inside the Dark Mind of a White Supremacist” (Part 2)

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 26th day of November 2018, and I'm delighted that I am having my guest on today for the third time.

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This is actually part two of the specific title we are discussing, a series that we began on Tuesday the 13th of November, but even though this is part two, we have had the privilege of having

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Lowell Ivey on the program now for the third time, including today, where you're going to be discussing

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Inside the Dark Mind of a White Supremacist, and Lowell Ivey is pastor of Reformation Presbyterian Church, which is an orthodox

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Presbyterian church congregation in Virginia Beach, Virginia, and that is a mission work of the

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Presbytery of the Southeast, and Lowell Ivey is also a former member of a white supremacist gang in prison, the same prison where he was delivered from that hatred and damnable evil and brought to new life in Christ and transformed to become a new creation, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Lowell Ivey.

02:32

Well, it's always great to be with you. Thank you again for inviting me. And it's my pleasure, and many of our listeners may detect that I still have remnants of the cold that I've been battling, so I hope you'll put up with me today as I might not be in top form in regard to this cold, but I will press on and do as best as I can.

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Why don't you, for those of our listeners especially, that have not heard you on the program before,

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Pastor Lowell, why don't you tell our listeners about Reformation Presbyterian Church in Virginia Beach, Virginia?

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Well, thank you, Chris. RPC is a congregation, or a mission work, I should say, of the

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Orthodox Presbyterian Church. We are hoping, Lord willing, to organize as a particular congregation with our local ruling elders and deacons.

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We hope to do that sometime in 2019, so that's what we're praying for right now.

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We've been around for a few years, since 2014 as a mission work, and then

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I was called as the pastor in 2016 as the organizing pastor. So we are a growing congregation, a congregation that loves the

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Gospel, loves the historic Reformed confessions, and we're seeking to evangelize and reach out to the community.

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Great, and if anybody wants to hear Lowell Ivey's testimony, and also part one of the discussion that we're having now,

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Inside the Dark Mind of a White Supremacist, all you have to do is go to ironsharpenzironradio .com,

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and then you will go to the Past Shows Podcast section and type into the search engine

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Ivey, which is Lowell's last name, and you will get the two previous interviews we've had with Lowell on right there, able to click on and listen to very easily.

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And of course, wait till we're done with our live show today to do that, and we're looking forward to hearing from you.

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By the way, if you have questions for Lowell of your own, our email address is chrizarnsen at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

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Please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence, if you live outside the USA, and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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Let's say you are also a former white supremacist, but you do not want to draw attention to your true identity, or you have family members that are white supremacists.

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Perhaps you're still a white supremacist, and you're starting to come to the point of questioning the legitimacy of that way of thinking.

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Well, we understand that those reasons would be reasons to remain anonymous, but other than that, please give us your first name, at least, your city and state, and your country of residence, if you're outside the

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USA. Well, I think it'd be a good idea to do a review of what we discussed last time, specifically involving the different species of white supremacists.

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Well, I, thank you Chris, I last time talked about white supremacy as an ideological assertion that the white race is superior to and ought to dominate other races.

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Now, of course, that's assuming that there are such things as races.

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We've talked a little bit about that. I think we'll probably try to get into that a little bit more this time, but that's the assumption, and we talked about how there are different species of white supremacy or different forms that white supremacy takes.

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There are the two broad categories that, as I understand it, of religious forms of white supremacy, and those could range anywhere from pagan forms of white supremacy to forms of white supremacy like Christian identity that would seek to root their belief system in the

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Bible. And so, religious forms and then also non -religious forms that would be things, generally, white nationalist kinds of groups that are, their ideology is more of a political perspective.

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Now, just out of curiosity, I don't think we brought this up last time, are any of these groups doing battle either in writing or physically with one another?

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Is there much infighting amongst the white supremacist groups? I know, for instance, that there are some that allow

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Roman Catholics to be members, whereas the Ku Klux Klan for centuries did not.

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I don't know what their requirements are today, what their application form might say, but is there any infighting?

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Well, that's an interesting question. You know, obviously, when you have such a variety of different perspectives, there's going to be, there's certainly going to be some degree of animosity, particularly if you're thinking of groups that, some groups are completely atheistic in their perspective, and then some groups are you know, would have more of a polytheistic view of things, and then some would be monotheistic, and so you have such a variety that to some degree that's inevitable.

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However, I think many of these groups are so focused on their racial ideology that they would try to keep that, they would try to keep a unified front, if you know what

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I mean. Right. I thought it was interesting that years ago,

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I don't know if it's still his position, but Tom Metzger was so focused on preserving the white gentile or Aryan race, this fictitious group called the

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Aryans, that he even wrote an article on his website saying that the other white supremacist groups should really not be focused on opposition to homosexuality and things like that, that they were deluding the cause by doing that.

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So I was wondering if that was even another area of disagreement, because in fact,

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I don't know if you're aware of this, but in the, I believe it was the 1970s,

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I don't know when they died out, but there was a San Francisco -based American Nazi party that was exclusively for male homosexuals.

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I don't know if you're aware of that. No, I never heard of that. Yeah, that is true. That is true.

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There's always been some kind of odd connection with the Nazi party and homosexuals, including one of the original founders of the

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Nazi party in Germany, Ernst Röhm, who was the leader of the brown shirts.

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He is the one that was in leadership of those that were responsible for Kristallnacht, where they went around to the stores breaking the windows of Jewish -owned stores and shops and so on.

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And Ernst Röhm was an unabashedly, unashamed, open homosexual and pederast.

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So it's kind of interesting that there is that connection that has followed them in different places.

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Well, it's interesting you mentioned that, because there is a connection, and it's been well -documented, a connection between Nazism and different forms of occultism.

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And when you start researching occultism, I was deeply involved in the occult for quite some time.

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When you start researching it, you start coming across some, you know, you think of somebody like Aleister Crowley and some of his occult literature openly promoting homosexuality.

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He's writing back in the early part of the 20th century and promoting homosexuality as a means of attaining spiritual power.

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Yeah, there you go. Well. So, you know, there's that occult connection that it would not surprise me at all.

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I'd never heard of that particular group, but it wouldn't surprise me at all. And, of course, there was a president of the

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American Nazi party. I think his name was Michael Collins, if I'm not mistaken. He was the one that was trying to get the freedom for the

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Nazis to march in Skokie, Illinois, years ago, back in the 80s, I think it was, because Skokie, Illinois happens to have the largest residency of Holocaust survivors in the

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United States. And he was eventually arrested and imprisoned for molesting boys.

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So it's not a far leap there. But so the different species of white supremacy, why is it really important for us to know something like that?

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Well, in one sense, it's not necessarily something that everybody needs to know in great detail.

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However, I always tell people that when you're talking to, for instance,

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Jehovah's Witnesses or members of the Latter -day

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Saints or some cult that doesn't believe in Christian doctrine, you want to know what they believe.

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For one thing, you don't want to attribute to them things that they don't believe. You want to be fair in your judgments, and you want to speak the truth in love.

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And so in order to do that, you have to know what they may believe.

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And so it's good to know, in an apologetic way, what non -Christians believe, so that you can begin to help them,

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Lord willing, if they're willing to be helped. And if you're having a conversation with a white supremacist, he will most likely have more of a probability of taking you seriously if you appear to know what you're talking about.

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Absolutely. That's the point, yeah. You want to be able to present the truth in a way that helps the person that you're talking to see that you do know what you're talking about, and then you're able to more effectively engage the ideas and the consequences of those ideas.

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Well one of the groups, or actually let me say two of the groups, that profess

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Christian identity are the Christian Identity Movement and also the

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Kinnist Movement. So I think it would be a good idea for us to know the different ways the

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Bible has been historically misused to justify white supremacy by groups like that.

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And even sadly in history, outside of these hate groups, there are people, especially in centuries past, who

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I believe were our brothers in Christ, and yet were guilty of this wicked sin of looking down upon our brothers and sisters who just happen to have a different skin color and different hair texture and so on.

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Um, so tell us about how the Bible has been historically misused to justify white supremacy.

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Well, you know, as you know, the Bible has historically been used to justify all kinds of false views and false ideologies.

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And so, you know, sometimes people will say that you see this shows that the

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Bible is a racist book or something like that because you're taking the assumptions of people who are misusing the

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Bible and you're making those assumptions appear to be what the

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Bible actually teaches, which the Bible clearly does not teach any form of racial supremacy.

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In fact, as I mentioned a moment ago, the Bible doesn't teach the concept of race at all.

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It does teach the idea of ethnicity, but it doesn't it doesn't teach the concept of race as it's commonly understood.

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There's one race, the human race. That's the basic teaching of the Bible. So why would somebody want to use the

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Bible or misuse the Bible in order to promote some sort of racial ideology?

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Well, there are a lot of different reasons. For one thing, religion is a powerful force.

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It's a powerful influence. And so, there are those who would seek to use that influence of religion in order to control people.

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Now, some people would say that that's the only purpose of religion. It's always the opiate of the masses and religion has no purpose except to control people.

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I don't accept that, but it is true that sometimes religion is used in that way.

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So, what has happened historically, you know, thinking of something like Christian identity, is that the

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Christian religion has been used as, especially because Christianity, you know, in Western Europe, the

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United States, throughout Western civilization was the dominant cultural influence.

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And so, what's happened is people want to promote this ideology, return to that dominant cultural influence, and make use of that in order to promote their ideas.

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And Christian identity is an example of that. It seems to have begun in the 1800s, late 19th century, and a number of things, a number of books were published in order to promote some of the ideas.

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One of those books was titled Lost Israel Found in the

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Anglo -Saxon Race by a man named E .P. Ingersoll. Another well -known book that I read as I was studying these things in prison was

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Judas Scepter and Joseph's Birthright by Howard Rand.

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And essentially, the idea behind Christian identity is that, number one, there are these

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Lost Ten Tribes, and you read about the Lost Ten Tribes in historical books, of the

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Bible, and so you read about how the northern tribes of Israel were overrun by the

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Assyrians and taken into captivity, and never heard from again, and never really appearing in the

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Bible again. There were some remnants that escaped to Judah, and so the idea is that what happened to those people?

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And so a whole mythology has developed this Christian identity that says that those descendants of the

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Lost Ten Tribes migrated to Britain. You know, is that synonymous with Anglo -Israelism?

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They're close ties, yeah. Very similar. Christian identity is really an offshoot of Anglo -Israelism or British -Israelism.

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There are some differences, but essentially the idea is that the

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Lost Ten Tribes were white people. The difference with Christian identity is that they would even say that the tribe of Judah was also white and has nothing to do with what we would call modern

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Jews today. Yeah, it's interesting that Herbert W. Armstrong, the famous cult leader of the

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Worldwide Church of God, who passed away, I don't know how long ago it's been now, but I think it's been over a decade now.

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It's definitely been over a decade now, but he was one who advocated this British -Israelism nonsense, and it was clear from some of his booklets that he also was against quote -unquote interracial marriage and other things like that.

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And that's a key tenet, the idea that white people should not intermarry with people of other quote -unquote races, and biblical justification being passages in the

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Old Testament that speak about Israel maintaining its distinct identity as a people and maintaining its distinct religious identity.

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And so those passages would be interpreted to mean that interracial marriage would be forbidden in all instances and throughout all history, so that in the

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New Testament, you would be applying those Old Testament passages in the same exact way to prohibit marriage between races.

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We're going to be going to our first break right now. When we come back, if you could, Lowell, provide some specific scriptural texts that are the favorites of white supremacists who misuse them, and we'll also take some listener questions when we come back.

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If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. Don't go away, we'll be right back after these messages with Lowell Ivey. Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, announcing a new website with an exciting offer from World Magazine, my trusted source for news from a

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You'll find more information at irbsseminary .org. That's irbsseminary .org, two

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S's in the middle. I hope to hear from you soon. God bless you. My friend

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Chris Arnzen and I will be heading down to Atlanta for the G3 conference where I'll be joining

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James White, Steve Lawson, Vodie Baucom, Mark Dever, Conrad Mbewe, Todd Friel, Josh Bice, and a host of other speakers to address the topic,

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A Biblical Understanding of Missions. Chris Arnzen and I hope to see you all at this very important conference from January 17th through the 19th.

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Make sure you stop by the Iron Sharpens Iron exhibitors booth to say hi to Chris. For more details, go to g3conference .com.

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That's g3conference .com. See you there. My name is

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Steve Lawson, founder and president of One Passion Ministries, as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier Ministries.

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I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the doctor of ministry program at the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles.

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I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.

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It's called New Covenant Church, NYC. They are a Reformed Baptist church that meets in Midtown Manhattan.

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You can find their service times and location on their website, which is www .ncc .nyc.

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They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

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If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching in New York City, I'd like to recommend that you visit

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New Covenant Church, NYC. Again, their information can be found at www .ncc

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.nyc. Have a great day. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

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I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years. His name is Dan Buttafuoco.

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That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. And don't forget folks that tomorrow,

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Reliability of the New Testament, with a foreword by Ravi Zacharias. So that's going to be tomorrow, 4 to 5 p .m.

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eastern time during the first half of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. That will be followed by my guest

31:06

Roger Ellsworth, who is a Reformed Baptist pastor who has written a new book on the 12 days of Christmas.

31:12

So I hope that you tune in tomorrow. We're also giving away both of those books for free to listeners who submit questions about either of those topics during the two -hour broadcast.

31:25

So mark that on your calendar and send in some questions. If you've just tuned us in, our guest today is

31:32

Lowell Ivey. This is the third time Pastor Ivey has been on the show and this is part two of the topic that we are addressing today,

31:43

Inside the Dark Mind of a White Supremacist. Our email address if you'd like to join us on the air is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

31:51

Chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

31:58

USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Pastor Lowell, if you could let us know some of the texts of scripture that have become unfortunately and tragically the favorites of white supremacists who use them in a twisted fashion in order to bolster their views.

32:19

Well, sure. You know, one of the, if we just want to look at a couple of key proof texts that are often used, often they'll point to Ezra chapter 9 verse 2.

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Book of Ezra is recording the return of the captives back into the promised land after the

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Babylonian captivity. And so you read there in Ezra chapter 2, for they have taken some of their daughters as wives for themselves and their sons, so that the holy seed is mixed with the peoples of those lands.

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Indeed, the hand of the leaders and rulers has been foremost in this trespass.

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And so there was the intermarriage of God's people, and especially the priests and the leaders of God's people with, in my

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Bible, it emphasizes the fact that they were pagans, the heading is intermarriage with pagans.

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And the point was that God's people were not to marry outside of their religion.

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That was really the key point, just like Christians today are called to marry only in the

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Lord. However, this text is used to say that this is actually a racial prohibition, it's not primarily a religious prohibition.

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And now that's one of the key proof texts that are used. The Book of Nehemiah also is sometimes used in the same way.

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But you really have to go back all the way to the beginning of the Bible to understand somewhat what's going on with these views.

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There's a view called the pre -Adamite view, which essentially says that Adam and Eve were created, they were white, they were what you might call

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Anglo -Saxon, they had what we would see today as a

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Nordic appearance, white, blonde hair, blue eyes, that kind of thing. And prior to Adam and Eve, there was actually a whole civilization often called the pre -Adamite civilization.

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These were regarded by many of the proponents of this view as subhumans, who later on would be those that Cain and his seed would intermarry into those races and would produce other races other than the white races.

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So you have that pre -Adamite people, or subhuman group, that explains where some of these other races come from.

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So they really don't even believe that other people groups are descendants of Adam and Eve.

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That's the key error. And then you also have what's called the serpent seed doctrine.

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Not all Christian identity proponents would believe this, but it's the idea that Eve bore children with Satan as well as with Adam and Eve.

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I know this is in the Bible, this is all a mythology that's apart from the

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Bible, but in order to explain how they use the Bible and how they misuse the Bible, you have to understand some of these views as well.

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And so they believe that that seed line that Eve had with Satan would have produced what we know now as the serpent seed doctrine.

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So that's the key error. And then you also have what's called the serpent seed doctrine.

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Not all Christian identity proponents would believe this, but it's the idea that Eve bore children with Satan as well as with Adam and Eve.

36:56

And then you have what's called the serpent seed doctrine. Not all Christian identity proponents would believe this, but it's the idea about that.

37:02

Giants, Sons of the Gods by Doug Van Dorn. You can hear it if you go to www .ironsharpensironradio .com.

37:09

Go to the past shows podcast section and type in V -A -N and then a new word

37:15

D -O -R -N. His last name is two words, Van Dorn. And if you type that in, you'll get all of his interviews including

37:24

Giants, Sons of the Gods. Yes, unfortunately, there were

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Calvinists or professing Calvinists who had adopted that serpent seed theology and then they are called two seed in the spirit predestinarians.

37:43

I think that they're almost completely, I think they have almost completely died out, but they did exist.

37:49

Yeah, that's the first I've ever heard of that. Yeah, that's a strange group. I think that Landmark Baptists used to sometimes include them in, you know, in probably especially over a century ago.

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So, how do you best articulate to a white supremacist or if you're even talking to a black

38:16

Hebrew Israelite or some other form of racist who happens to be black or any other ethnicity, how do you convey to them, obviously we can never successfully convey to them without the aid of the

38:31

Holy Spirit to work a miracle in their hearts and minds, but as far as the idea that the scriptures from cover to cover are really very opposed to this damnable way of thinking of the supremacy of any people group by virtue of the color of their skin or ethnic origin, it's really ridiculous when people can use such a, what's the word

39:09

I'm looking for? Well, it's an absurd, it's an absurd thing to hold on to as something to give yourself supremacy over another person.

39:18

Like I'll give you an example, I'm sure there must be morons in the

39:25

Ku Klux Klan who are yet smart enough to realize that Dr.

39:31

Ben Carson has a superior intellect to them. So, I mean it's really laughably ridiculous when you think that people are clinging on to something like, my skin's lighter than yours, therefore

39:41

I'm superior. I mean it's insane, but what can you say to those people? I would almost, in response to what you're saying there,

39:52

I would almost be, I'd be shocked if they didn't say, oh well, if you looked at Carson's lineage, you're probably going to find a lot of white in there.

40:03

And that's how they're going to respond to that. A lot less than theirs though. Yeah, right, right.

40:09

No, I mean, you're right. It's absolutely, it's absolutely, you know, it's a blindness.

40:16

It's a form of blindness. And that's, and that's of course what you're dealing with, not just with racial supremacy and racism, you're dealing with blindness when you're dealing with anyone who doesn't believe the gospel of Jesus Christ.

40:32

And so, in one sense, you have to come at it with that understanding.

40:38

You have to come at it with that understanding that nothing you say rationally is going to change the heart of a human being who is fixated on this and who's obsessed with this kind of doctrine.

40:55

Nothing, no rational arguments would have changed my mind when I was so deeply entrenched in this, and ensnared by this.

41:07

It was only the grace of God, it was only God opening my eyes. However, he used the scriptures to do it.

41:15

And so, you can't underestimate the power of the evangelize.

41:26

And as you're seeking to minister to those who are in this form of blindness, there are all kinds of forms of blindness.

41:33

And we have to recognize that the only answer to any of it is the application of God's word.

41:40

We have a listener. Let's see here. We have Christina in Suffolk County, Long Island, New York.

41:54

And Christina asks, How do white supremacists, to your knowledge, respond to a classic text in the

42:01

New Testament, which would seem to refute any of their ridiculous notions?

42:08

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

42:16

That's Galatians 3 .28. Very good question, Christina. And that is,

42:23

I think, a perfect text to use when speaking to folks like this. I don't know if you've ever specifically addressed the white supremacist and retorted with this text, but do you have any idea how they might respond?

42:39

Well, no, Christina, this is absolutely a wonderful question, because it gets to the heart of the real issue, and the real issue is the

42:48

Gospel itself. What did Jesus come to do? He came to reconcile

42:53

Jew and Gentile together, all people, all ethnicities together in one body, in the body of Christ, in the

43:04

Church. And so that's what Jesus came to do. He came to bring salvation not just for one people, but for all people, and so for all different categories of people.

43:20

And so the question is, then how would somebody who claims to be Christian come to a text like that and find in that a justification for racism?

43:33

Especially somebody like a Kinnist who might be more scripturally literate.

43:41

Somebody who actually has a theology invested in this. They're not just some, you know, skinhead punk from the street who calls himself a

43:49

Christian identity movement member, but doesn't really know the first thing about the Bible. Somebody who's like actually more familiar with the words of the

43:57

Scripture, even if they twist them. Yeah, and what they're going to say is that the word

44:04

Jew today means something different than it meant when that was written.

44:13

They're going to, you know, I mentioned a moment ago this satanic seed line doctrine.

44:20

They're going to say that those of that, one of the ways they might address this is they might say that that satanic seed line, the product of Eve and Satan, that that satanic seed line has corrupted humanity and has taken to itself the title

44:47

Jew, which really belongs to white people. That's basically what they're going to say.

44:53

Now, you know, still it doesn't address the fact that there was a distinction between Jew and Greek, or between Jew and Gentile.

45:01

Right, and also slave and free. Right, exactly. And so it's not really a satisfactory answer, but they're going to have to do something like that, redefining what

45:15

Jew actually means. A lot of times they're going to speak about Ashkenazi Jews, and how

45:24

Ashkenazi Jews are really a mixed race that can't be traced back to the line of Judah and so forth.

45:36

And so they're going to say that those who are claiming to be Jews today are not the real

45:43

Jews. That's how they're going to address that. Now, ironically, those who champion that theory, though, are claiming that the

45:54

Jews today are in reality Gentiles. So I don't even know how that can be used by a white supremacist.

46:01

Yeah, again, they're going to claim that those who say that they're Jews are not really

46:07

Jews, and that Jesus was not, for instance, an Ashkenazi Jew.

46:13

That Jesus was, you know, they're probably going to say that Jesus was a pure white man, you know, like Adam was, in their view.

46:22

And so they're going to redefine what a Jew is, and they're going to do it based on, not based on the

46:31

Bible, not based on the scriptures, but they're going to do it based on their interpretation of history, and their interpretation of what happened after the dispersion of the

46:43

Ten Tribes. And they're going to say that those Ten Tribes didn't get lost to history.

46:50

They're going to say that those Ten Tribes actually migrated across Europe and left colonies all across Europe and made it all the way to Britain.

47:01

And even some of the more extreme versions of this will try to connect different tribes with a particular people group in Europe.

47:14

Now, interestingly, this is the same thing that the, you know, you mentioned the Black Hebrew Israelites. They do exactly the same thing, except they try to connect the different lost tribes with nations in Africa, or ethnic groups in Africa.

47:31

Now, both of those can't be true. And really, neither of them are true. But that's generally what they'll try to do.

47:41

Thank you, Christina. Keep listening to Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio and spreading the word in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond.

47:48

In fact, please give us your full mailing address, because I believe you are a first -time listener, and you have won a new

47:54

American Standard Bible, absolutely free of charge, by virtue of being a first -time questioner during the program.

48:02

Let's see here. We have Phyllis in West Islip, Long Island, New York.

48:11

I believe another first -time listener. And Phyllis says, Do the white supremacists make much use of Isaiah chapter 1, verse 18?

48:21

Come now and let us reason together, saith the Lord. Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow.

48:29

Though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. Do you think the occasional references to white symbolizing purity is something that they harp on incorrectly?

48:44

You know, I can't remember a verse like that being used in that way, because it's so clearly referring to something other than skin color.

49:00

But, you know, you never know. You never know what some people... I don't remember that kind of thing being used, but obviously the arguments that are used are certainly specious on their face, and, you know, we need to be familiar with them to be able to refute them.

49:27

Amen. Let's see here. We have

49:33

RJ in White Plains, New York. And RJ says, It seems ironic that although white supremacists obviously, by virtue of the very title they describe themselves with, believe that white races are superior to the darker -skinned races, and yet they will acknowledge very often that those with darker skin have excelled in greater measure than white people have in certain athletic endeavors.

50:05

Doesn't this contradict the whole notion of white supremacy or narrow it down to one area or another in regard to comparing one's race to another?

50:18

Yeah, that's a good point. And, you know, an even better point, I think, would be that often

50:24

I think white supremacists don't see the contradiction in saying that that they are, you know, the superior race, and yet all of their enemies, their supposed enemies, are dominating them right now.

50:41

Yeah, that's right. I mean, it doesn't seem to dawn on them that you can't have it both ways, right?

50:50

And so, you know, I think with regard to that, they would certainly make much of that, they would make much of the differences, they would make much of the differences, you know, even there was a very controversial book some time ago that was purporting to show differences in IQ level, and so they would make much of the differences between the supposed difference between whites and other races in terms of IQ, and they would point to cultural achievements by white people in the last few hundred years, and the dominance of Western European culture throughout the world, and they would point to all of this as evidence that the white race is superior in terms of intellectual ability and cultural ability.

51:46

I don't think they're so concerned that, you know, you might have genetic traits that enable some races to be, or some groups of people to be, you know, more dominant athletically or something like that.

52:03

I don't think they would be so concerned about that. Their great concern is to show that white people are culturally, even morally, which is interesting given what the

52:13

Bible says, but morally, culturally, and intellectually superior to other races.

52:21

Yeah, when we return from our midway break, I want to get into how the gospel addresses white supremacy and all of the forms of racism, bigotry, and hate, but before that I even want you to touch a bit on what may have been going through your own mind as a white supremacist when you were still a white supremacist.

52:39

I have to make that clear to our listeners who tuned in late that you are no longer a white supremacist and repudiate that as a devolition damning ideology.

52:49

Thanks only to God. Amen. But I was wondering if, and you could answer this after the break, if you were harboring any kind of fear of people of other skin colors and ethnicities, perhaps even envy, what might be going on in your mind to create the monster that you became in the form of white supremacist, and you wonder what would drive someone to that view.

53:22

It might even surprise you. I don't know if you have studied much on George Lincoln, Rockwell, and his

53:31

American Nazi party that he founded, I believe in the late 50s or early 60s, but there were at least three

53:42

Jewish members of the American Nazi party who were living in the closet, as it were, and one of them was actually a more famous case who was exposed by a newspaper journalist.

53:58

It might have been the Chicago Sun -Times or something, and when he was exposed for being

54:04

Jewish, he committed suicide. Oh, that's interesting. But when we come back,

54:09

I'll pick your brain a bit about what you think some of those motives might have been, and our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

54:17

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

54:22

USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter, and please use this time during this elongated station break required by Grace Life Radio 90 .1

54:34

FM in Lake City, Florida. Use this time to write down not only your questions for Lowell Ivey at chrisarnson at gmail .com,

54:42

but also use this time to write down the information provided by our advertisers so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize them.

54:49

Because the more you patronize our advertisers, the more likely they will remain our advertisers, which means the more likely we will remain on the air for a longer period of time because of the fact that we rely upon their advertising dollars to exist.

55:03

Don't go away, we'll be right back with Pastor Lowell Ivey after these messages from our sponsors.

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Send in your email to chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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James White here, co -founder of Alpha and Omega Ministries and occasional guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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I'm so delighted. My friend Chris Arnzen will be heading down to Atlanta for the next G3 Conference from January 17th to the 19th, 2019, where I'll be joining a very impressive lineup of speakers on the theme,

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A Biblical Understanding of Missions. Speakers include John Piper, Steve Lawson, Bodhi Balcombe, Mark Dever, Conrad Mbewe, Phil Johnson, Josh Bice, yours truly, and many more.

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I hope you all join Chris and me for this phenomenal event. For more details, go to g3conference .com.

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I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.

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If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching, in New York City, I'd like to recommend that you visit

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.nyc. Have a great day. Hello, I'm Dr.

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Gary Kimbrell, senior pastor at Bethlehem Baptist Church in Laurel, Mississippi, and I'm hoping that many of you who listen to Chris Arnson's Iron Sharpens Iron radio program will join

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Chris and me at the Deep South Founders Conference Thursday, January 24th through Saturday, January 26th here in Laurel.

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If you love God's Word and love to hear it powerfully preached, I can assure you that you will not be disappointed.

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Our speakers at the Deep South Founders Conference this year include Rusty Reed, Gerald Henderson, Jason Goodwin, Bobby Crenshaw, and our keynote speaker all the way from Zambia, Dr.

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Conrad Mbewe, who has received the nickname the Spurgeon of Africa, and I, for one, believe it's a very accurate description of Brother Conrad.

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For more details, go to deepsouthfounders .com. That's deepsouthfounders .com.

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I look forward to giving a big Mississippi welcome to many Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners

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January 24th through January 26th. Thank you.

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So I hope you take advantage of those sales. Please remember to mention Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio. Before we return to Lowell Ivey for the second half of our interview today, which is part two of Inside the

01:08:12

Dark Mind of a White Supremacist, a theme that we began on the 13th of November.

01:08:17

And we actually began it before that when we had Lowell give his testimony, which involved being a member of a white supremacist gang in prison.

01:08:28

But before we return to Lowell, we just have some special upcoming announcements that we want to make sure you are aware of.

01:08:37

First of all, the Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio Pastor's Luncheon is coming up on Thursday, January 3rd from 11am to 2pm at the

01:08:48

Carlisle Fire and Rescue Banquet Hall, Carlisle, Pennsylvania. This is a free luncheon to all men in ministry leadership.

01:08:57

I'm sorry that we are not inviting the wives of pastors or we are not inviting women who are ordained in various ministry leadership positions in different denominations.

01:09:10

This is exclusively a male luncheon and we look forward to hearing from many of you in the audience who will take advantage of this phenomenal event featuring

01:09:22

Dr. Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary. He is a professor of apologetics and Islam at that seminary.

01:09:29

He is once again going to be speaking at my luncheon and every man there will leave with at least one, perhaps even two, heavy sacks of brand new books that have been donated by nearly every major Christian publisher in the

01:09:45

United States and the United Kingdom. Every year, going back to the 1990s, these generous

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Christian publishers have provided for me approximately 100 copies of a specific title that I choose from each publisher so that every man in attendance can get that same book when they leave the luncheon.

01:10:08

And so you're talking about a lot of books and a lot of their brand new books absolutely free of charge.

01:10:15

There is nothing sold at the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pastors Luncheon. That was a demand of my late wife,

01:10:23

Julie, who started these luncheons in the 1990s and insisted that these events be solely for the blessing and encouragement and the refreshment and the recreation of all of these men in attendance.

01:10:42

She did not want it to give the impression that there was some hidden agenda or motive and that there was anything to be profited financially off of these.

01:10:51

So everything that takes place is free. So if you want to register for this luncheon on Thursday, January 3rd, 11 a .m.

01:11:02

to 2 p .m. at the Carlisle Fire and Rescue Banquet Hall, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:11:10

Then right after that, from Friday, January 4th through Sunday, January 6th,

01:11:16

Dr. Tony Costa will be conducting a three -day Bible conference at the

01:11:21

Enola First Church of God in Enola, Pennsylvania, pastored by my very dear friend

01:11:27

Pastor George Jensen. That is going to be on the theme, The Most Dangerous Things Attacking the

01:11:36

Christian Church in North America in the 21st Century. And if you would like to attend that conference, that's free to everyone.

01:11:45

It's open to men, women, and children, Christians and non -Christians alike. We would love to have you be in attendance there from January 4th through the 6th at the

01:11:57

Enola First Church of God. For more details, email me at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:12:04

Or you can also, for directions, call 717 -732 -4253.

01:12:12

That's the phone number for the Enola First Church of God. 717 -732 -4253.

01:12:18

And you can go to enolacog .com for more details on location.

01:12:29

Then later on in January, the G3 conference returns to the

01:12:36

Georgia International Convention Center in College Park, Georgia, which is a suburb of Atlanta.

01:12:42

They are expecting between 4 ,000 and 5 ,000 people there. And I will be there once again manning an exhibitor's booth for Iron Trump and Zion Radio.

01:12:53

The roster of speakers is always phenomenal and impressive. This year, or should

01:13:00

I say, this January, it includes Dr. James R. White, John Piper, Stephen J.

01:13:06

Lawson, Vody Baucom, Mark Dever, Conrad M. Bayway, Tim Challies, Phil Johnson of John MacArthur's Grace to You Ministry, Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio, Stephen J.

01:13:20

Nichols, the president of Reformation Bible College, the college founded by R .C.

01:13:25

Sproul and Ligonier Ministries, and many, many more. If you want to register for this conference, either as an attendee or also as an exhibitor's booth vendor, go to g3conference .com,

01:13:38

g3conference .com. Remember, with between 4 ,000 and 5 ,000 people there, that's an excellent place to be manning an exhibitor's booth, as I will be doing.

01:13:47

And hopefully, if you're manning one, you'll be manning one near me. So please register as soon as possible before they run out of exhibitor's booth space.

01:13:57

But whether or not you're manning a booth, go to g3conference .com to register, g3conference .com, and tell them that you heard about that conference from Chris Arnson and Iron Trump and Zion Radio.

01:14:07

Last but not least, I will be manning my first exhibitor's booth ever at the

01:14:14

Deep South Founders Conference in Laurel, Mississippi, January 24th through the 26th.

01:14:21

By the way, I think I forgot to mention the dates of the G3 Conference. Sorry folks, the

01:14:26

G3 Conference is being held Thursday, January 17th through Saturday, January 19th.

01:14:32

That's the 17th through the 19th of January for the G3 Conference. There's also an exclusively Spanish edition of the conference that is on Wednesday, January 16th, if you know

01:14:44

Spanish speaking and bilingual folks who would like to attend the Spanish edition of the G3 Conference on January 16th.

01:14:51

I apologize for forgetting that earlier. But the Deep South Founders Conference is the 24th through the 26th of January.

01:15:00

That's going to be held at the Bethlehem Baptist Church of Laurel, Mississippi. This is my first time also in the state of Mississippi.

01:15:07

I've never been in Mississippi in my life. And the speakers include

01:15:12

Rusty Reed, who is my guest this Wednesday on Iron Trump and Zion Radio, Gerald Henderson, Jason Goodwin, Bobby Crenshaw, and their keynote speaker, my favorite preacher alive on the planet

01:15:25

Earth, that's Dr. Conrad Mbewe, pastor of Cobata Baptist Church in Lusaka, Zambia, Africa, and also

01:15:32

Chancellor of African Christian University. If you would like to register for the Deep South Founders Conference in Laurel, Mississippi, go to deepsouthfounders .com,

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01:18:47

It's chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com and that's also the email address to send in a question to Pastor Lowell Ivey in regard to the issue of the sin of white supremacy.

01:19:03

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com and before the break, Pastor Lowell, you might remember that I asked you to perhaps give us some personal information from what you can remember as a as a former white supremacist now, but when you were a white supremacist, the things that you believe may have motivated you to become something like that,

01:19:28

I mean, you might not even know yourself, you might not be conscious of every reason, but as I was saying before, and by the way, for those of you interested in the sources

01:19:40

I was using earlier when I was mentioning that there were at least three Jewish members of the

01:19:46

American Nazi Party, for instance, there's a fascinating book that's been around for quite a while called

01:19:52

Hate George Lincoln Rockwell and the American Nazi Party, truly a fascinating book by William H Schmoltz.

01:20:03

He documented the fact that there were Jewish people in the American Nazi Party that were in the closet, of course, they didn't make that known to George Lincoln Rockwell or his members of his little cult there, and one of those

01:20:17

Jewish members became the topic of a fictionalized movie called

01:20:23

The Believer that many of you may have seen with Ryan Gosling, where he was a neo -Nazi skinhead, and he was in reality, unbeknownst to his fellow

01:20:34

Nazi skinheads, he was a Jew in the movie, and that was loosely based on the story of one of the members of the

01:20:44

American Nazi Party under George Lincoln Rockwell. They really did a huge amount of fictionalizing it, but it was still based nonetheless on the same person.

01:20:54

So, what are the motives that you are aware of? There might not be ones that you had,

01:21:01

I'd like to hear some of the motives you believe you had, but also the motives of other people, why such a movement would be attractive to them?

01:21:10

I have a feeling it must have something to do with a feeling of inferiority and fear of some kind.

01:21:19

Yeah, thank you for that question. As you've been talking, I've been reflecting a little bit about these things, and it's interesting to me that you mentioned the three

01:21:29

Jews who were part of the American Nazi Party, because, as I think about my own experience,

01:21:40

I can remember often reading the literature, the

01:21:46

Nazi literature, the white supremacist literature, and feeling in reading that literature as if there might be something that I needed to confront in my own past.

01:22:01

In other words, I was reading The Ideal, and The Ideal was the blond -haired, blue -eyed, tall

01:22:08

Aryan man, right? The qualities that none of which

01:22:15

Right, right. Well, that's a whole story in itself. But I'm looking at myself in the mirror as I'm reading off all this, and I'm saying, okay,

01:22:26

I'm not tall, I don't have blond hair, I have dark hair, actually now my hair is turning white, so it's getting closer to being blond.

01:22:37

My wife always tells me that my hair is turning blond, not white. She's very kind to me.

01:22:46

But I have brown eyes, I'm short, very thick eyebrows, and all of the traits that would be used to describe either what they called the mongrel race or Jews, I was in that category, and I was starting to think, wow, what's going to happen if I go back and look at my family tree?

01:23:12

But I'm adopted, I'm adopted twice, and I really don't have any information about my past.

01:23:19

But this was something that really was bothersome to me for a number of years, as I was in the midst of all this.

01:23:26

I was really afraid to look and to see what was there, because I thought, oh no, what if I find out

01:23:33

I'm Jewish? What if I find out I've got some Jewish blood or some mixed race blood? What's that going to be?

01:23:40

So my identity was so wrapped up in this, because I was seeing that I didn't fit that stereotype that was being promoted.

01:23:50

But to back up a little bit, for me, of course, I was in prison, and I was a white man in prison, and in the prison system that I was in in Texas, that means that I was a minority.

01:24:05

So I went from being in the majority population outside of prison to now being in a minority population in prison.

01:24:12

And I had white men who came to me and who said, you've basically got two choices.

01:24:20

You can get with us, you can stay down. That was the term for, if something happens, you're with us, you're going to fight with us, you're going to stay down.

01:24:31

Or we're going to hand you over to the blacks or to the

01:24:37

Hispanics, and who knows what's going to happen to you. So essentially, what you're saying is right.

01:24:45

For me, at least, there was the question, how am I going to survive? And beneath that, of course, is a fear, a fear of not belonging, a fear of not finding a place to belong, because the prisoners actually racially segregated themselves.

01:25:05

It wasn't just the white prisoners who did that. It was the prison population racially segregated itself, for the most part.

01:25:14

The only people who didn't were the Christians. They were the only ones who had the courage in prison, white, black, or Hispanic, to live as if race really didn't matter.

01:25:31

So for me, before Christian, obviously, it was a motivation of fear. Before we go on to how the gospel addresses white supremacy and other forms of bigotry, we do have a listener in Cork, Ireland.

01:25:49

We have Mary in Cork, Ireland, and she asks, are, I can't help but chuckle because of the way this is spelled.

01:25:56

It's spelled incorrectly, but it's the Ku Klux CLUCKS clan.

01:26:04

Are the Ku Klux Klan still in operation as they had been in the past? The specific group that you're speaking about,

01:26:10

CLUCKS, they're the group that dresses like chickens. That's a different group. But the

01:26:16

Ku Klux Klan, as far as I am aware, they are in existence, but it's just a tiny, tiny fragment of what they used to be, right?

01:26:27

Oh yeah, absolutely. Certainly the Ku Klux Klan had, at one time, earlier in the 20th century, had a pretty powerful political influence.

01:26:39

A lot of that had to do with factors coming out of Reconstruction and so forth.

01:26:44

But now they have a minimal influence. There are a number of splinter groups that claim to be

01:26:52

KKK -related groups, but they're not really the backbone of the white supremacist movement,

01:27:00

I would say. Yeah, they're really laughable whenever you see them involved in anything in the news.

01:27:07

It's like guys who just are attached to dressing up in the

01:27:14

Klan outfit and all that. Yeah, but interestingly, they are an example of a group that would use the

01:27:22

Bible, for example, as a basis, as a justification for their belief system.

01:27:30

Right, and they're, of course, a mixed bag in regard to the actual belief system.

01:27:36

Tom Metzger, who was once a minister in a Ku Klux Klan, I believe he was the

01:27:43

Grand Dragon at one point, or some other high position in that movement. He became an atheist, but is still a white supremacist in the white

01:27:52

Aryan resistance group. Well, thank you, Mary. Keep spreading the word about Iron Trip and Zion Radio and Quark Ireland and beyond.

01:28:01

And now let us know... Oh, one thing I wanted to say, because the Ku Klux Klan actually reminded me of something. I have two questions, or maybe a question and a comment about that.

01:28:13

Were or was the Southern Poverty Law Center profitable in the breaking of the back of the

01:28:22

Ku Klux Klan, due to lawsuits and so on, that robbed them, or should I say rightfully took from them finances and property and so on?

01:28:35

The second part is, even though that may be true, we have to be very weary of the

01:28:44

Southern Poverty Law Center, because it has really become an anti -Christian organization. They are opposed to any kind of conservative view of society and law and ideology.

01:28:58

And they even go as far as putting the lives of people in jeopardy by putting them on a wanted list with their photographs.

01:29:08

And I know I have friends of mine who are Bible -believing Christians. Ironically, even

01:29:13

Michael Brown, who is a Jewish Christian, is on their list for anti -Semitism, which is quite comical, and some other folks that I know.

01:29:27

So, if you could address both of those issues. Were they, at least in that one area, used in a positive way to break the back of the

01:29:35

Klan? And the other thing is, don't we need to be very leery of them? Well, I think the answer is yes to both of those.

01:29:43

Certainly, the Southern Poverty Law Center has, you know, you can't dismiss everything they've done as being wrong or bad.

01:29:54

But what happens, a lot of times, is a good impulse turns into an industry.

01:30:02

You need to keep finding what you're looking for, and if you can't find it, you begin to manufacture it so that you can continue to find support.

01:30:14

And, you know, I think, in large measure, that's what has happened. So the

01:30:19

Poverty Law Center has done exactly what you've said, and even labeling, you know, many

01:30:27

Christian organizations or Christian people as being, you know, as being somehow anti -semitic or dangerous or racist.

01:30:41

And if you oppose homosexuality for any reason, even biblical reasons, they will oppose you as a part of a hate group.

01:30:49

And I think this is, you know, I didn't know if you wanted to get into this today, but the equating of an opposition to homosexuality with hate and with, you know, identifying that as every bit as wrong as racism is one of the strategies that's been used, not just by the

01:31:13

Southern Poverty Law Center, but by many, you know, groups. And it's actually been a very effective strategy so that, in people's minds, there's really no difference between racism, which is, you know, which is a form of bias that is based on external characteristics over which someone has no control, and something that the

01:31:44

Bible describes as sin. And so, in other words, when you put those two things in the same category, then

01:31:52

Christians who believe the Bible to be the Word of God also then find themselves in that category of being bigots, according to that definition.

01:32:03

So it's a really dangerous ideology. Yes, because love, according to a true

01:32:14

Christian, obviously there are professing Christians that hate homosexuals, but according to biblical

01:32:24

Christianity, love is the motivation that a Christian would want to see somebody involved in that activity rescued from it, not only because of the temporal damage being done on this earth, where the death rate for especially homosexual men is so high, and the age of mortality, or the age of death, is a decade or more younger than the average heterosexual man, even if you exclude

01:32:56

AIDS from the equation. But first and foremost, being damned eternally by God for unrepentant activity in this behavior, even if a non -Christian would disagree with this, they would have to recognize, especially when a

01:33:15

Christian opposing homosexuality is doing so with love and compassion, they would have to recognize that this has nothing to do with being a part of a hate group.

01:33:27

Yes, and of course the danger comes when even Christians, in a confused way, begin to fall prey to the argument that this is how

01:33:37

God created a homosexual, created them to be this way. And so, you know, that's where the argument seems to make sense, because, well,

01:33:50

God created a black person to be black. God created a person who has brown skin to have brown skin, and who has white skin to have white skin.

01:34:01

And if you then extrapolate from that, well, if God created this person to have the sexual orientation, that's the language that's often used, if God created them to have that orientation, then to want them to change is to want them to change what

01:34:20

God has created them to be. And so, in one sense, it's a very powerful argument that we have to be able to make a difficult defense against.

01:34:33

By the way, this is something interesting. I started to remember that I think

01:34:41

Michael L. Brown, the Jewish Christian apologist who is on the Southern Poverty Law Center's hit list, if you will,

01:34:50

I believe he's on there because of his work against homosexuals, not necessarily for his ministry to bring the gospel to Jews, even though Michael is a

01:35:03

Jew. But I tried to access Michael Brown's profile on the

01:35:08

Southern Poverty Law Center's website, and it says, access denied. You are not authorized to access this page.

01:35:16

I'm wondering what that's about. I don't know if that's just me, or other conservative Christians, or if that's everybody,

01:35:22

I don't know, who knows. But we are going to our final break right now, and if you'd like to join us with a question of your own, please do so now because we're rapidly running out of time.

01:35:34

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:35:40

Please, as always, give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

01:35:46

Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Don't go away, we'll be right back after these messages with Lowell Ivey and white supremacy.

01:35:55

Gotta tell you, for my money, Chris Arnson's radio program is just the best.

01:36:01

Iron. Criticizing. Iron. I think that's what it's called.

01:36:07

This is Todd Friel of Wretched Radio and TV with Phil Johnson of Grace to You, inviting everybody to come to the

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It's a great conference. I love it. And Chris Arnson was there last year. He's been there, I think, every year.

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It's great to see him there. You and I actually did some recordings in the lobby at that place, which is a highlight.

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01:36:55

James Renahan and I'm the president of IRBS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas. The word of God says, if a man desires the office of an overseer, he desires a good thing.

01:37:07

Do you have the desire to serve Jesus Christ in pastoral ministry? Twenty years ago, the

01:37:12

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That's irbsseminary .org, two S's in the middle. I hope to hear from you soon.

01:38:14

God bless you. My name is Steve Lawson, founder and president of One Passion Ministries, as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier Ministries.

01:38:22

I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the doctor of ministry program at the Masters Seminary in Los Angeles.

01:38:28

I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.

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You can find their service times and location on their website, which is www .ncc .nyc.

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They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

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If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching, in New York City, I'd like to recommend that you visit

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New Covenant Church, NYC. Again, their information can be found at www .ncc

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.nyc. Have a great day. Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, For am

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I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man,

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We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do than how men view these things.

01:39:48

That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the apostles' priority, it must not be ours either.

01:39:54

We believe, by God's grace, that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man, and to be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us, and to build up the body of Christ in truth and love.

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that's providencebaptistchurchma .org, or even on sermonaudio .com. Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor

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01:47:08

That's chrisarnson at gmail dot com. Transcription of interview with Dan Buttafuoco on January 7, 2011.

01:47:31

Listening to Christian radio can be a big gamble spiritually. Even many of the major Christian networks that include excellent biblically faithful teachers on their lineup sadly often also include the worst of doctrinally dangerous heretics.

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01:48:29

Spread the word about firstloveradio .org. Welcome back.

01:48:42

This is Chris Arnson. If you just tuned us in, our guest has been for the entirety of the program today, Pastor Lowell Ivey, a former white supremacist gang member in prison, who by the grace and mercy and love of God transformed

01:48:57

Lowell into a new creature in Christ, one who is free from hate and bigotry that he once used as his very identity, and is now pastoring in an

01:49:10

Orthodox Presbyterian congregation. If you'd like to join us on the air while there is still time, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:49:21

If you want to get to know how the gospel addresses white supremacy and all the forms of racism, bigotry, and hate.

01:49:30

I appreciate that, Chris. The first thing you have to realize is that it begins at the doctrine of creation.

01:49:39

It's not the Bible that teaches any form of racism.

01:49:47

Usually, these forms of racism that we seek, they come out of embracing some form of evolutionary philosophy or some distortion of what the

01:49:57

Bible teaches based on a view of the age of the earth as being billions of years, and that's where you fit in your pre -Adamite civilization and that sort of thing.

01:50:10

But it's the doctrine of creation that's key, and it's at the heart of that doctrine.

01:50:17

The error that people make is right there, because at the beginning of the

01:50:23

Bible, the Bible clearly says that God created Adam and Eve, created man and woman in his own image, and they were created to multiply and fill the earth.

01:50:35

And so it's right there that racism goes wrong when they begin to see other people as something other than created in the image of God.

01:50:49

There's the fall into sin, the fall that affected all people, affected all people in all parts of every person so that mind, will, and affections are all completely corrupt by sin, and what that means is that we all need a

01:51:06

Savior. A Savior who can come into the world as a human being and atone for the sins of human beings created in the image of God, and that Savior is

01:51:17

Jesus Christ. And so the gospel is the gospel of a

01:51:23

Savior who's come into the world to set people free from every form of sin, every form of hatred which begins in the heart, but expresses itself outwardly in acts of hatred towards people, or words of hatred.

01:51:46

And the gospel is the expression of God's love in the person of the

01:51:53

Lord Jesus Christ who comes into the world despite our sin and reconciles us all to himself.

01:52:00

We're on an equal playing field in terms of sin. No one is better than anyone else.

01:52:07

No one can look down their nose at anyone else. No person, no ethnicity.

01:52:13

We're all under the curse of sin, and we're all worthy of death for that sin, and we all need a

01:52:21

Savior, and the only Savior is Jesus Christ. And that's the gospel that was preached way back.

01:52:27

Abraham, Galatians 3, 8 tells us that the gospel was first preached to Abraham, but it's the same gospel that's been preached ever since.

01:52:38

Amen. The gospel was preached even to Adam and Eve at the bark of Genesis 3, 15. The seed of the woman is going to crush the head of the serpent.

01:52:48

Well, that's what's happened in Christ. Amen. May I never boast of anything but the cross of Jesus Christ.

01:52:57

Amen. From Galatians chapter 6. Well, there is, as you know, we brought it up before, but there is this racial reconciliation movement, social justice movement going on.

01:53:14

How is the idea of racial reconciliation causing disunity in the body of Christ that it seems that the agenda on the surface is to heal wounds and to bring unity, but it's actually causing disunity in the body of Christ, isn't it?

01:53:31

Well, I think it is. Now, that doesn't mean that everybody who holds to some view of racial reconciliation is actively seeking to promote disunity in the body of Christ, but part of the problem is that it's not very well defined what people mean when they say racial reconciliation.

01:53:50

And I always say that this is what Christ has come to do. He's come to reconcile all things to himself in one new humanity, and that's called the

01:54:01

Church of Jesus Christ. And so the reconciliation of the nations has already taken place, and it's being worked out by the application of the

01:54:14

Holy Spirit. And so that doesn't mean that we have always lived up to what

01:54:22

Christ is calling us to in the Church, and that's why we say we need to always be reforming.

01:54:30

So I kind of like the idea of reformation more than I like the idea of racial reconciliation, because a lot of times you don't know what people are talking about when they use that term, or what they're aiming for.

01:54:47

And of course, very often, unfortunately, the rhetoric of those championing that movement is identical to white supremacist rhetoric, it's just reversed.

01:54:59

When white people are told that they have no business writing or talking about certain subjects that involve racism and bigotry and things like that, it's really akin to segregationist mentality.

01:55:18

Yeah, and I think the biggest problem of all, especially among Christians, is making accusations, casting aspersions, seeking to look into people's hearts and determine whether or not there's some form of hatred.

01:55:36

And we really are not able to do that. We need to use the judgment of charity, we need to love one another, certainly when we see sin, we need to call sin what it is, but we need to be very clear that what we see really is sin before we make accusations.

01:55:58

Amen. Well, how does the gospel teach us that Christ is reconciling all humanity to Himself through personal repentance and faith and evangelism, rather than social activism and political indoctrination?

01:56:12

Well, Jesus came into the world preaching that the Kingdom of God isn't near, and therefore we are to repent and to believe.

01:56:21

And we do that as individuals, primarily. We do that as individuals. We must come to personal faith in the

01:56:29

Lord Jesus Christ. And so the gospel comes to individuals as a call to repent and to believe.

01:56:38

And to get sidetracked into political and social activism, what that does is it takes all the wind out of the sails of the

01:56:48

Great Commission. Amen. Well, I want to make sure, before we go off the air,

01:56:54

I want to remind our listeners to please help Solid Ground Christian Books in any way you can, through purchasing as many books as you can, especially, through solid -ground -books .com,

01:57:10

solid -ground -books .com. That is one of our sponsors, as you know from hearing their ads every day.

01:57:17

They've experienced a huge financial setback when the founder, Mike Gadosh, was laid up in the hospital during very serious open -heart surgery, that thankfully he is now recovering from, and thankfully a surgery that he successfully experienced, and quite to the pleasure of the surgeons who think that he has recovered more rapidly than most after such an extremely dangerous and complicated surgery.

01:57:49

Please go to solid -ground -books .com, solid -ground -books .com, and order as much as you can for the

01:57:56

Christmas holidays. Even when you're ordering from cvbbs .com, since they are a book distributor, they carry all of Solid Ground Christian Books' titles.

01:58:05

So you can go to cvbbs .com to order all of the books that you find at solid -ground -books .com,

01:58:13

and you will benefit both of our advertisers that way. And once again, I know

01:58:18

Lowell Ivey, you were greatly blessed by Solid Ground Christian Books while you were in prison, am

01:58:24

I right? That's right. Yeah, that's right. And keep your eyes and ears open, folks, because there is a booklet and then eventually a full -length book, expected sometime in the future, by Lowell Ivey, our guest, to be made available through Solid Ground Christian Books, so we will keep you updated on that.

01:58:43

Do you have any final words in about 45 seconds that you'd like to share with our listeners? Well, again,

01:58:50

I appreciate you having me on the program, Chris. It's been a great blessing to talk about these things.

01:58:56

There's so much more that we could say. But, you know, if anybody wants to contact me, please do so.

01:59:04

You can find my contact information on our website, www .reformation -opc .org,

01:59:12

or you can just email me at pastor at reformation -opc .org.

01:59:19

Great, and don't forget, folks, tomorrow my friend and client, Dan Buttafuoco, author of Consider the

01:59:27

Evidence, is going to be my first guest tomorrow, followed by Pastor Roger Ellsworth, whose book

01:59:32

The Twelve Days of Christmas will be addressed, and we are giving away free copies of those books. I hope that you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater