November 26, 2018 Show with Lowell Ivey on “Inside the Dark Mind of a White Supremacist” (Part 2)

Opening Banter and Program Introduction

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Our host, Chris Arnson. Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 26th day of November 2018 and I'm delighted that I am having my guest on today for the third time. This is actually part two of the specific title we are discussing, a series that we began on Tuesday the 13th of November, but even though this is part two, we have had the privilege of having Lowell Ivey on the program now for the third time, including today.

We are going to be discussing Inside the Dark Mind of a White Supremacist and Lowell Ivey is pastor of Reformation Presbyterian Church, which is an Orthodox Presbyterian Church congregation in Virginia Beach, Virginia, and that is a mission work of the Presbytery of the Southeast.

Lowell Ivey is also a former member of a white supremacist gang in prison, the same prison where he was delivered from that hatred and damnable evil and brought to new life in Christ and transformed to become a new creation.

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Lowell Ivey. It's always great to be with you. Thank you again for inviting me. And it's my pleasure, and many of our listeners may detect that I still have remnants of the cold that I've been battling, so I hope you'll put up with me today, as I might not be in top form in regard to this cold, but I will press on and do as best as I can.

Why don't you, for those of our listeners especially that have not heard you on the program before, Pastor Lowell, why don't you tell our listeners about Reformation Presbyterian.

Church in Virginia Beach, Virginia? Well, thank you Chris. RPC is a congregation, or a mission work I should say, of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. We are hoping, Lord willing, to organize as a partake in 2019.

So right now we've been around a congregation that could form the historical church to evangelize. And if anybody wants to hear Lowell Ivey's testimony, and also.

Part one of the discussion that we're having now, Inside the Dark Mind of a White Supremacist, all you have to do is go to ironsharpenzionradio .com, and then you will go to the past shows podcast section, and type into the search engine Ivey, which is Lowell's last name, and you will get the two previous interviews we've had with Lowell on right there, able to click on and listen to very easily.

And of course wait till we're done with our live show today to do that. And we're looking forward to hearing from you. By the way, if you have questions for Lowell of your own, our email address is chrisarenson at gmail .com.

C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Let's say you are also a former white supremacist, but you do not want to draw attention to your true identity, or you have family members that are white supremacists. Perhaps you're still a white supremacist, and you're starting to come to the point of questioning the legitimacy of that way of thinking.

Well, we understand that those reasons would be reasons to remain anonymous. But other than that, please give us your first name, at least your city and state, and your country of residence if you're outside the USA.

White Supremacist Factions and Infighting

Well, I think it'd be a good idea to do a review of what we discussed last time, specifically involving the different species.

Of white supremacists. Well, thank you, Chris. I last time talked about white supremacy as an ideological assertion. We'll get into that a little bit more. And forms of white identity that would be...

I just had a curiosity. I don't think we brought this up last time.

Are any of these groups doing battle either in writing or physically with one another? Is there much infighting amongst the white supremacist groups? I know, for instance, that there are some that allow Roman Catholics to be members, whereas the Ku Klux Klan for centuries did not.

I don't know what their requirements are today, what their application form might say. But is there.

Any infighting? Well, that's an interesting question. Obviously, some degree that many of these groups keep a unified front. Right. I thought it was interesting that years ago,.

I don't know if it's still his position, but Tom Metzger was so focused on preserving the white Gentile or Aryan race, this fictitious group called the Aryans, that he even wrote an article on his website saying that the other white supremacist groups should really not be focused on opposition to homosexuality and things like that, that they were deluding the cause by doing that.

So I was wondering if that was even another area of disagreement. In fact, I don't know if you're aware of this, but in the, I believe it was the 1970s, I don't know when they died out, but there was a San Francisco-based American Nazi party that was exclusively for male homosexuals.

I don't know if you're aware of that. No, I never heard of that. Yeah, that is true. That is true. There's always been some kind of odd connection with the Nazi party and homosexuals, including one of the original founders of the Nazi party in Germany, Ernst Röhm, who was the leader of the Brownshirts.

He is the one that was in leadership of those that were responsible for Kristallnacht, where they went around to the stores breaking the windows of Jewish-owned stores and shops and so on. And Ernst Röhm was an unabashedly, unashamed, open homosexual and pederast.

So it's kind of interesting that there is that connection.

That has followed them in different places. Well, it's interesting you mention that, because there is a connection, and it's been well-documented, a connection between Nazism and cultism for quite some time, promoting homosexuality.

He's writing back in the... Yeah, there you go. Well... So, you know, there's that occult connection that it would not surprise me at all. I'd never heard of that particularly.

And, of course, there was a president of the American Nazi party. I think his name was Michael Collins, if I'm not mistaken. He was the one that was trying to get the freedom for the Nazis to march in Skokie, Illinois, years ago, back in the 80s, I think it was, because Skokie, Illinois, happens to have the largest residency of Holocaust survivors in the United States.

And he was eventually arrested and imprisoned for molesting boys. So it's not a far leap there. So, the different species of white supremacy, why is it really important for us to know something like that?

You don't want to attribute to them things that they don't believe. You want to do that, you have to know... And if you're having a conversation with a white supremacist, he will.

Most likely have more of a probability of taking you seriously if you appear to know what you're.

Talking about. Absolutely. That's the point. Yeah. You want to be able to present the truth in a way that you do know what you're talking about.

Misused Bible Texts in Christian Identity and Related Movements

Well, one of the groups, or actually, let me say two of the groups that profess Christian identity are the Christian Identity Movement and also the Kinnist Movement. So I think it would be a good idea for us to know the different ways the Bible has been historically misused to justify white supremacy by groups like that.

And even, sadly, in history, outside of these hate groups, there are people, especially in centuries past, who I believe were our brothers in Christ, and yet were guilty of this wicked sin of looking down upon our brothers and sisters who just happen to have a different skin color and different hair texture and so on.

So tell us about how the Bible has been historically misused to justify white supremacy.

Well, as you know, the Bible has historically been used to justify all kinds of false views and false ideologies. And so sometimes you see this, that, because you're taking the assumptions of people who are misusing the Bible, and you're making those assumptions not teach any form of, as I mentioned a moment ago, such a grace of it.

So why would somebody want to use the Bible as a thing? Religion, there are those who would say that it's always been used as ideology would turn to that dominant late 1800s, late 19th century ideas found by E .P. Ingersoll.

Actually, the idea behind Christian identity is...

Is that synonymous with Anglo-Israelism?

There are some differences.

Yeah, it's interesting that Herbert W. Armstrong, the famous cult leader of the Worldwide Church of God, who passed away, I don't know how long ago it's been now, but I think it's been over a decade now.

It's definitely been over a decade now. But he was one who advocated this British-Israelism nonsense. And it was clear from some of his booklets that he also was against, quote-unquote, interracial marriage and other things like that.

So that's a key tenet. The idea that, you know, white people should not intermarry with, quote-unquote, races and Israel's distinct identity as a people and maintaining its religious identity.

We're going to be going to our first break right now. When we come back, if you could, Lowell, provide some specific scriptural texts that are the favorites of white supremacists who misuse them. And we'll also take some listener questions when we come back.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com. C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages with Lowell Ivey. Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, announcing a new website with an exciting offer from World Magazine, my trusted source for news from a Christian perspective.

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Grace to you. And I'm also an occasional guest on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio, so I'm delighted that my friend Chris Arnzen and I will be heading down to Atlanta for the G3 Conference, where I'll be joining James White, Steve Lawson, Vodie Baucom, Mark Dever, Conrad Mbewe, Todd Friel, Josh Bice, and a host of other speakers to address the topic of biblical understanding of missions.

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That's g3conference .com. See you there. My name is Steve Lawson, founder and.

President of One Passion Ministries, as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier Ministries. I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the doctor of ministry program at the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles.

I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor. It's called New Covenant Church, NYC. They are a reformed Baptist church that meets in midtown Manhattan.

You can find their service times and location on their website, which is www .ncc .nyc. They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel. If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching, in New York City, I'd like to recommend that you visit New Covenant Church, NYC.

Again, their information can be found at www .ncc .nyc.

Have a great day. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here. If you've watched my Dividing.

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The silver gilding he added on the page edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished chrome. Jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications and even emboss your logo into the leather, making whatever he rebinds a one-of-a-kind work of art.

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That's ptlbiblerebinding .com. Chris Sorensen, host of Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio here. I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years. His name is Dan Buttafuoco. Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer, but not the type that typically comes to mind.

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Scripture Texts Misused to Support White Supremacy

If you've just tuned us in, our guest today is Lowell Ivey. This is the third time Pastor Ivey has been on the show, and this is part two of the topic that we are addressing today, Inside the Dark Mind of a White Supremacist.

Our email address, if you'd like to join us on the air, is chrisarnson at gmail .com. Chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter. Pastor Lowell, if you could let us know some of the texts of scripture that have become, unfortunately and tragically, the favorites of white supremacists who use them in a twisted fashion in order to bolster their views.

Well, sure. One of the key proof texts that are often used, often, and so you read there in Ezra chapter 2, for they have taken some of their daughters as weed, as mixed with the peoples of those lands.

Indeed, the hand of the leader of the intermarriage of God's people, and the point was that God's people were not to, and now that's one of the key proof texts that are used in the book of Nehemiah, also the beginning of the Bible, pre-Adamite view.

There was intermarriage into those that produce people that Eve had with Satan. Yeah, by the way, I want to let our listeners know.

That I had a fascinating interview with Doug Van Dorn, who's a Reformed Baptist pastor in northern Colorado. He wrote a book, Giants, the Sons of the Gods, and it's a fascinating book. It does not defend the white racist understanding of those beings in the Old Testament, but I'm sure you will find it fascinating.

You can also hear an interview about that, Giants, the Sons of the Gods, by Doug Van Dorn. You can hear it if you go to www .ironsharpensironradio .com, go to the past shows podcast section, and type in V-A-N, and then a new word, D-O-R-N.

His last name is two words, Van Dorn, and if you type that in, you'll get all of his interviews, including Giants, Sons of the Gods. Yes, unfortunately, there were Calvinists, or professing Calvinists, who had adopted that serpent seed theology, and they are called two seed in the spirit predestinarians.

I think that they're almost completely, I think they have almost completely died out, but they did exist. Yeah, that's the first I've ever heard of that. Yeah, that's a strange group. I think that landmark Baptists used to sometimes include them in, you know, in probably, especially over a century ago.

So, how do you best articulate to a white supremacist, or if you're even talking to a black Hebrew Israelite, or some other form of racist who happens to be black, or any other ethnicity, how do you convey to them?

Obviously, we can never successfully convey to them without the aid of the Holy Spirit, to work a miracle in their hearts and minds. But, as far as the idea that the scriptures, from cover to cover, are really very opposed to this damnable way of thinking of the supremacy of any people group by virtue of the color of their skin, or ethnic origin, it's really ridiculous when people can use such a, what's the word I'm looking for?

Well, it's an absurd, it's an absurd thing to hold on to as something to give yourself supremacy over another person. Like, I'll give you an example. I'm sure there must be morons in the Ku Klux Klan who are yet smart enough to realize that Dr. Ben Carson has a superior intellect to them.

So, I mean, it's really laughably ridiculous when you think that people are clinging on to something like, my skin's lighter than yours, therefore I'm superior. I mean, it's insane. But, what can you say to those people?

I can, you know, I would almost,.

I'd be shocked if they didn't say, oh, Wilson's lineage, you're probably going to find a lot of white in there. And that's how they're going to respond to that. A lot less than theirs, though. Right. No, I mean, you're right.

It's absolutely, it's absolutely, you know, it's a blindness. It's a form of blindness. And that's, and that's, of course, and so it, in one sense, you have to come at it with that understanding. Nothing you say is going to change or change my mind.

However, to use the scripture who are in this form.

We have, we have a listener. Let's see here. We have Christina in, in Suffolk County, Long Island, New York. And Christina asks, how do white supremacists, to your knowledge, respond to a classic text in the New Testament, which would seem to refute any of their ridiculous notions?

There is neither Jew nor Greek. There is neither slave nor free. There is neither male nor female for you are all one in Christ Jesus. That's Galatians 3 .28. Very good question, Christina. And that is a, I think a perfect text to use when speaking to folks like this.

I don't know if you've ever specifically addressed the white supremacist and retorted with this text, but do you have any idea how they might respond?

Well, no, Christina, this is absolute. What did Jesus come to do? He came to reconcile Jew and Gentile together, all people all together in what Jesus came, but for all people. And so, especially, especially somebody like a kinest who might be more.

Scripturally literate, somebody who actually has a theology invested in this, they're not just some, you know, skinhead punk from the street who calls himself a Christian identity movement member, but doesn't really know the first thing about the Bible.

Somebody who's like actually more familiar with the words of the scripture, even if they twist them. Yeah, and what they're going to say.

Is that today, you know, I mentioned among seed-line doctrine, they're going to say that that satanic seed-line of Eve and Satan, that that satanic seed-line corrupted Jew, which that's basically, you know, still it doesn't address the fact that...

Right, and also slave and Right, exactly, and so it's not really, it's not really a status that redefining what Jew actually means. A lot of times they're going to speak about Ashkenazi Jews, Ashkenazi Jews, a mixed race, that claiming to be Jews today are not the...

Ironically, those who champion that.

Theory, though, are claiming that the Jews today are in reality Gentiles, so I don't even know how that can be used by a white supremacist. Yeah, they're, you know, they're, again,.

They're going to claim that they are not really Jews, and that Jesus was, you know, a white man, you know, like Adam was in their view, and so they're going to redefine what a Jew is, and they're going to do it, and even some of the more extreme versions of the Black Hebrew Israelites, they do exactly the same thing.

Thank you, Christina. Keep listening to Iron.

Sherp and Zion Radio and spreading the word in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond. In fact, please give us your full mailing address, because I believe you are a first-time listener, and you have won a new American Standard Bible absolutely free of charge by virtue of being a first-time questioner during the program.

Let's see here, we have Phyllis in West Islip, Long Island, New York, I believe another first-time listener, and Phyllis says, Do the white supremacists make much use of Isaiah chapter 1, verse 18? Come now and let us reason together, saith the Lord.

Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow. Though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. Do you think the occasional references to white symbolizing purity is something that they harp on incorrectly?

You know, I can't remember that being in that way, but I, you know, you never know. You never know what some people are saying, and I don't remember that being certainly something to be.

Able to refute. Amen. Let's see here, we have RJ in White Plains, New York, and RJ says,. It seems ironic that although white supremacists obviously, by virtue of the very title they describe themselves with, believe that white races are superior to the darker-skinned races, and yet they will acknowledge very often that those with darker skin have excelled in greater measure than white people have in certain athletic endeavors.

Doesn't this contradict the whole notion of white supremacy or narrow it down to one area or another in regard to comparing.

One's race to another? Yeah, that's a good point, and, you know, an even better point, I think, would be that... That's right. I mean, it does, and so make much of the dim time ago, whites and other races' achievements by white people and the dominance of intellect, their great concern is to show that white people, even morally, which is interesting, but morally cold choices.

Yeah, when we return from our midway break, I want to get into how.

The gospel addresses white supremacy and all of the forms of racism, bigotry, and hate, but before that, I even want you to touch a bit on what may have been going through your own mind as a white supremacist when you were still a white supremacist.

I have to make that clear to our listeners who tuned in late that you are no longer a white supremacist and repudiate that as a devolution-damning ideology. Thanks only to God. Amen. But I was wondering if, and you could answer this after the break, if you were harboring any kind of fear of people of other skin colors and ethnicities, perhaps even envy, what might be going on in your mind to create the monster that you became in the form of white supremacist, and you wonder what would drive someone to that view.

It might even surprise you. I don't know if you have studied much on George Lincoln, Rockwell, and his American Nazi party that he founded, I believe in the late 50s or early 60s, but there were at least three Jewish members of the American Nazi party who were living in the closet, as it were, and one of them was actually a more famous case who was exposed by a newspaper journalist, it might have been the Chicago Sun-Times or something, and when he was exposed for being Jewish he committed suicide.

Oh, that's interesting. But when we come back I'll have you, I'll pick your brain a bit about what you think some of those motives might have been, and our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter, and please use this time during this elongated station break required by Grace Life Radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida.

Use this time to write down not only your questions for Lowell Ivey at chrisarnson at gmail .com, but also use this time to write down the information provided by our advertisers so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize them, because the more you patronize our advertisers, the more likely they will remain our advertisers, which means the more likely we will remain on the air for a longer period of time because of the fact that we rely upon their advertising dollars to exist.

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Chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com. Hi, I'm Stephan Lindblad, Assistant Professor of Systematic Theology at IRBS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas. I accepted this call to teach at the seminary because I'm firmly convinced that the people of God in the churches of our Lord Jesus Christ need to be firmly grounded in the truth of Holy Scripture.

I'm excited to be teaching such subjects as the nature of theology and the doctrine of Scripture, and even the doctrine of the person and work of Jesus Christ. Our churches and our people need to be well grounded in these truths.

Indeed, future ministers of the gospel need to understand these truths in order to proclaim them to all of God's people. If you want to learn more about our program, visit us online at.

Irbsseminary .org. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here. If you've watched my Dividing.

Line webcast often enough, you know. I have a great love for getting Bibles and other documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity. And besides that, they feel so good.

I'm so delighted I discovered Post-Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding. No radio ad will be long enough to sing their praises sufficiently, but I'll give it a shot. Jeffrey Rice of Post-Tenebrous Lux is a remarkably gifted craftsman and artisan.

All his work is done by hand, from the cutting to the pleating of corners to the perimeter stitching. Jeffrey uses the finest and buttery soft imported leathers in a wide variety of gorgeous colors, like the turquoise goat skin tanned in Italy used for my Nestle All in 28th edition, with a navy blue goat skin inside liner, and the electric blue goat skin from a French tannery used to rebind a Reformation Study Bible I used as a gift.

The silver gilding he added on the page edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished chrome. Jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications and even emboss your logo into the leather, making whatever he rebinds a one-of-a-kind work of art.

For more details on Post-Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding, go to ptlbiblerebinding .com.

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Phil Johnson, Josh Bice, yours truly, and many more. I hope you all join Chris and me for this phenomenal event. For more details, go to g3conference .com. That's g3conference .com.

My name is Steve Lawson, founder and president of One Passion Ministries, as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier Ministries. I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the Doctor of Ministry program at the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles.

I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor. It's called New Covenant Church, NYC. They are a Reformed Baptist church that meets in Midtown Manhattan.

You can find their service times and location on their website, which is www .ncc .nyc. They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel. If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching, in New York City, I'd like to recommend that you visit New Covenant Church, NYC.

Again, their information can be found at www .ncc .nyc. Have a great day.

Hello, I'm Dr. Gary Kimbrell, senior pastor at Bethlehem Baptist Church in Laurel, Mississippi, and I'm hoping that many of you who listen to Chris Arnson's Iron Sharpens Iron radio program will join Chris and me at the Deep South Founders Conference, Thursday, January 24th through Saturday, January 26th, here in Laurel.

If you love God's Word and love to hear it powerfully preached, I can assure you that you will not be disappointed. Our speakers at the Deep South Founders Conference this year include Rusty Reed, Gerald Henderson, Jason Goodwin, Bobby Crenshaw, and our keynote speaker all the way from Zambia, Dr. Conrad Mbewe, who has received the nickname the Spurgeon of Africa, and I for one believe it's a very accurate description of Brother Conrad.

For more details, go to deepsouthfounders .com. That's deepsouthfounders .com. I look forward to giving a big Mississippi welcome to many Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners, January 24th through January 26th.

Thank you. Tired of bop store Christianity, of doing church in a warehouse.

With all the trappings of a rock concert? Do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship? And how about the preaching? Perhaps you've begun to think that in-depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island.

Well, there's good news. Wedding River Baptist Church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience, featuring the systematic exposition of God's Word. And this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you.

Call them at 631 -929 -3512 for service times. 631 -929 -3512. Or check out their website at wrbc .us. That's wrbc .us. I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries. The New American Standard Bible.