Does Worship Music Matter?

Upcoming Guests, Presuppositional Apologetics, and Support for the Channel

Welcome back to another episode of Revealed Apologetics. I'm your host, Eli Ayala. And today I'm back on with another guest. I got actually got a couple of guests coming in the future. I know that J. Warner Wallace will be on on May 17th to talk about the existence of Jesus and the person of Jesus, why Jesus is unique.

And so we're gonna be talking about that topic. That's gonna be super interesting. Super excited to have J. Warner Wallace kind of give me his time. He's a pretty busy guy and he agreed to come on. And I know my presuppositionalist friends are like, what are you doing, man?

But come on, it's J. Warner Wallace. You know, I think we could still have a great conversation. Even my guest today, as I'll introduce him in just a few moments, we differ on some key theological points.

But hey, we're good friends and I enjoy having conversations with him which is definitely an iron sharpens iron sort of situation. And so hopefully you guys have someone like that in your life, doesn't agree with you and everything, but you can have that fruitful friendship.

I think it's very useful. So also I am planning an epic presuppositional round table. I have invited six people, six people, some that you may know and others that you may not know but are pretty solid in presuppositional apologetics.

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So I greatly appreciate it if you guys can support in that way. All right, well, without further ado, I wanna invite my special guest who has actually been on this episode and I've actually had a philosopher on to critique my guest on the topic of libertarian free will and things like that.

So, but he's a really good friend and I really appreciate him. I would like to introduce on the screen with me, Dr. Braxton Hunter. How are you doing, man?

Hey, Eli, so glad to be here as your, what, non-Calvinist correspondent, I guess. That's right, that's right. And people should know, okay, right?

I am a Calvinist. I'm a presuppositionalist. Braxton is a classicalist and he's a, he's Molinist. And yes, I still think he's saved. He's just wrong. So, but we're not gonna be talking about that today.

I'm just kidding. But I am super happy to have Dr. Braxton Hunter on. Let me just kind of give you some background. Braxton Hunter, and he can correct me if this information is out of date, but Braxton Hunter is the former president of the Conference of Southern Baptist Evangelists or awkwardly, COSBY.

It's the worst acronym ever. It's the worst acronym ever.

As a professor of philosophy and apologetics at Trinity College of the Bible and Theological Seminary in Newber, Indiana. And Dr. Hunter is passionate about the defense of the Christian faith in a skeptical world.

Dr. Hunter also holds a BA in expository preaching, an MA in theology, and a PhD in Christian apologetics. So basically he is a black belt in apologetics, okay? You know, well, I mean, I'll give you black belt.

You're not a presuppositionalist, but you get the belt, okay? You took the classes, right? Okay. He's also an author of multiple books, which I highly recommend. He is the author of Blinding Lights, the Glaring Evidences of the Christian Faith, Death is a Doorway, Truth Bombs, Brief Thoughts on Big Issues.

And my personal favorite that I found useful, even as a presuppositionalist, is his book Core Facts. So you guys wanna check that out. You can purchase those at Amazon. Is there any other way people can order those books?

Braxton? Yeah, you could do that just on Amazon by searching my name, but you can also get it at braxtonhunter .com on the resources tab. So, and occasionally I'll give away an e-book or something like that.

I don't make a lot of money off this stuff. I just wanna get the stuff out there.

Yeah, he likes to give away things. He's given me, you've given me some material.

You've actually given me I think I gave you my book Evangelistic Apologetics. That's right, yeah.

You're also a black belt at giving stuff away. Is that a black belt?

Is that something If it is, I'm proud to have that black belt.

All right. Well, I don't know what background you have in music. I am not a musician. I was raised around music and I'm a singer. I used to be a lead singer in a band. And I did, I used to be in a Spanish band as well, and a band with a group.

So I've been a lead singer and a singer with two or three other guys as well. So I do have some background in singing. I cannot play an instrument for my life. Do you have any background in music, Brackman?

As a matter of fact, when I was a teenager, I took guitar lessons for three years. And that was probably as much to write songs to praise the Lord as it was to impress girls at the time. This is the carnal thinking of a young man.

But in any case, I've played guitar off and on ever since. And I did have a band that was called Today's Special, named after what was a children's program that I loved when I was a kid. But we performed in our church youth group, and then also in some places in the Nashville area, Christian organizations and things.

And then when I went to college at Middle Tennessee State University, I was majoring in music business. By then I learned, you're never gonna be a wealthy musician, Braxton, but you can make money off of people who are wealthy musicians if you're their manager or something.

So I studied music business, but then God called me to the ministry and I said, yes. And I've never looked back, but I still love music. And like you, I still love music and know a little bit. I can't read music.

I'm not the greatest, but I have some opinion.

So you're a black belt in apologetics. You're a brown belt in music.

Well, actually I got a yellow belt in karate and a yellow belt in Taekwondo. One of them is a gold belt. So let's just say I have a yellow belt.

Okay, all right, we'll go with the yellow belt. All right, interesting, very cool. Now I grew up in a Spanish Pentecostal context and we were very connected with a bunch of churches. So I was always, not just at my church, I was always visiting other churches and just exposed to a lot of music.

So I'm very much aware of like the musical culture, the worship culture of kind of those churches that tend to be more on the charismatic spectrum, if I can say that. And it's very interesting to observe and maybe you can kind of confirm this in your own experiences.

And people can resonate with this too, that music is such a powerful mechanism. It is a powerful tool to use within the context of worship.

Would you say that that's been your experience? Oh, absolutely, come on. There are certain songs, this is the thing. This is one of the reasons we have to be cautious is because music can seem right. It can seem right to you and you can wrap up ideas that might be in the music as seeming right, right along with it.

But I think certainly most Christians who have been Christians for very long have had powerful experiences in worship. There are people who are not very emotionally inclined, who maybe they don't get the touchy-feelys as much, but I think still most people have had meaningful moments in worship with music.

But even more than that, or not more than that, but just as much as that, and this is, of course, again, why we gotta be careful, is I've had moments where a song that wasn't even a Christian song was so powerful on the radio or something, I had to pull over the car for a second and say, wait a minute, this is an incredibly just good, well-made, emotional piece of music.

And so, yeah, absolutely, music is powerful and a powerful vehicle for ideas.

The Power of Music and the Meaning of Worship

Now, to kind of nerd out, so the kind of music that I listen to, I don't know if I've ever admitted this on YouTube, but people ask me, like, Eli, you do apologetics, you like talking about philosophy, and I'm like, man, what do you listen to?

What's in your head, right? Well, you know what, I grew up loving movie soundtracks. So the majority, like 99 .9 of the music that I do listen to are music soundtracks, movie soundtracks, and most of them don't even have lyrics.

They're just, you know, I love the Rocky soundtrack, especially the Rocky IV. I think No Easy Way Out by Robert Tepper is the song that I've listened to the most out of any song in my entire life. Roll down the windows, wear your 80s aviators and blast that.

The snare drum on that is straight up fire. And Star Wars, the Star Wars soundtrack. Now, here's the thing. When I listen to Star Wars, and yesterday was May the 4th, right? When I listen to Star Wars, there's actually a guy who actually enhanced the original music to make it more epic.

And perhaps I'll share, maybe I can show you where to listen to it online. It's awesome. So I love movie soundtracks. I understand. It's a stinking movie about aliens and space wizards. And even with the music from a movie, I can get the goosebumps because it is a very powerful, music is a very powerful thing.

I think God created us that way to respond to music, be able to create music out of creativity and these sorts of things. But when we talk about worship music, I think it's very important to, before we kind of jump into worship music within the context of, I think, people who are tuning in are thinking about, I think it's very important to kind of define what worship is.

Before we kind of jump into worship music, let's kind of go over what is worship in general. So maybe you can take a moment to share your definition of worship. And then I wanna share a passage out of Wayne Grudem's systematic theology because unlike a lot of systematic theologies, he actually has a chapter on worship, which I think is helpful.

So why don't you unpack for us what you think worship is, and then we'll correct you by quoting Wayne Grudem.

Yeah, well, so if you go into the Old Testament and you look at these earliest moments of worship and things like this, it's very much closely associated with sacrifice. To worship is to sacrifice. Or at least it will often have that as part of it.

And I think that carries for Judeo-Christian theology and specifically Christian New Testament theology, I think that plays right on through to where we are today. Of course, worship in the Old Testament was a lot to do with sacrificing various things at the tabernacle or at the temple or in other ways.

And you would sacrifice, and that was an act of worship. You were giving of yourself for the good of another. You're giving of yourself because that's what God asks of you, to obey because of your love for God.

As we get to the New Testament, as the law has been fulfilled and Jesus is the perfect sacrifice, the lamb without blemish, the one sacrifice that was weighty enough and worthy enough to cover the sin of the whole world, this, in this situation, we still sacrifice in our worship and we sacrifice by living a sacrificial life.

I sacrifice my life daily. But then in another sense, worship, and notice none of this necessarily has to do with corporately singing songs yet, although that can be part of it. Another thing I often say about worship is that to worship God is to do exactly what God created you ideally to do.

When we think about worshiping God forever in heaven without end, I think some people think this is going to be a really boring experience. I'm going to, I mean, you know, we're going to be in one corporate worship service with our nose in a Baptist hymnal, probably.

And you better bring a back brace because you're going to be bent over. It's going to really give you back problems. And, you know, it's just going to be rough. It's going to be, and bring an iPad or something because it's going to get boring.

This is not the idea of heaven that anyone wants. And actually I think what has happened is that well-meaning pastors and evangelists and youth pastors have said things like we're going to worship God forever without doing what you're doing right now, which is saying, hey, let's talk more deeply about worship.

And as a result, they've got the idea that heaven's going to be boring because forever we're going to worship God. When reality, I think of course we'll have corporate moments of worship, but the thing that should be understood is that every day in heaven, we will be living as God ideally wanted us to be living.

Why does nature, why can we say that, that my dog is worshiping God or the trees are worshiping God or the rocks and all these kinds of things? In a sense, at least in a sense, they're worshiping God in that they're at least trying to do what God made them to do, trying, you know, anthropomorphizing, but they're doing what God created them to do in some sense, even if nature has fallen.

But one day we will have perfect worship in that sense. So I think those are important things to say about worship. And I think when those two things are done right, then the corporate act of worship is an outflow of an overflow of joy from a life lived in gratitude to this God who has given us so much.

So see if Grudem can do better than that. Well, that is pretty good.

I do like how you kind of associate worship with this idea of sacrifice. It makes me think of Romans chapter 12. One, I wanna read it for folks. Here's out of the inspired translation. Okay, this is the translation that the Apostle Paul clearly quoted from.

Romans 12, one says, therefore I urge you brethren, this is the NASB. Therefore I urge you brethren by the mercies of God to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.

And so that's very much wrapped in what you were talking about, kind of worship. It's weird, kind of we kind of segregate this genre of music called worship music so that when we're not doing that, we can kind of get the mindset that we're not worshiping now, but when we go into the congregation and we sing these songs, now we're worshiping.

But this passage seems to be saying a little bit more. What do you think this passage is trying to say?

Well, I think first of all, go ahead and read verse two. Did you read through verse two?

I did not, I only have verse one here, but I think.

Read verse one and then I'll quote verse two from memory. Read it again.

Look at you, look at you, you came prepared today. All right, okay. All right, therefore I urge you brethren by the mercies of God to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.

Be not conformed to this world, but be transformed by the ruining of your mind. And my ye's give me away. My ye's tell you I am reading from the KJV, baby. But in any case, it's just, that's what I have it all memorized with.

All right. But yeah, I think it further puts the exclamation point on what you're trying to draw out of this, which is to live a life of sacrifice. This is worship to God, at least in one respect. Right, right.

And I think also it's, when we speak about Romans chapter 12, one, which is kind of present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, it has this idea of kind of your whole life being a sacrifice unto the Lord.

And it's that living that life of sacrifice is what your true worship is, is in a very profound way, more meaningful than what we do once or twice a week when we kind of sing a song, right? Anyone could sing a song and call it worship, but what are you doing when the songs aren't playing, when the music isn't playing, when the guitar isn't playing?

I think that's very important to keep in mind. Okay. So let's go to Grudem, okay? So in chapter 51 of his systematic theological monstrosity, the thing is ginormous. I actually have the updated version somewhere here.

It's pretty thick, but he has a chapter, chapter 51 on worship. And he says this. He says, quote, quote,. And then he specifically defines worship in this way. And then you can comment. He says, worship is the activity of glorifying God in his presence with our voices and hearts.

Do you agree, disagree, or perhaps want to add a caveat or something like that?

No, no caveat needed because what he did in the first part of that comment is to put a parenthetical frame around everything I said and say, of course, all of this is true. But what I'm talking about is the corporate act of singing to God.

Is that basically what he said? Yeah, yeah, sure, sure. And he says, you're pouring out, read it again, just that part at the end. The definition part? Yeah, just his, yeah, the actual definition.

Sure. Worship is the activity of glorifying God in his presence with our voices and hearts. Yeah.

Yeah. And in fact, there's only one of those things that still distinguishes it from just the regular act of worship, and that's the worshiping with your mouth, singing, that sort of thing. But yeah, I like that.

You would agree with me that there are differences. Worship is one thing that encompasses all of life, but there can be an appropriate distinction between the all of life, which is worship, and the specific act of singing within the context of the church and praise and things like that.

Yeah, I think so. Okay, all right, cool. All right, so let's jump in though. So we know that biblically, and we know that this is the teachings of Jesus, that theology is important, right? Theology is really the soil out of which everything else kind of flows out of, right?

So what can you share with people or encourage people with respect to this idea of the music we sing and the type of theology that it should reflect? What do you see in a lot of modern music that perhaps capitalizes on that and does that faithfully, or perhaps is a little off, as we know, a lot of people are familiar with various songs that sound beautiful, are emotionally powerful, but really are, in some senses, heretical or borderline heretical, or just straight out weird.

Yeah, I think if you have a song that is one of those things, or you determine that that's what's happening there, then perhaps you shouldn't sing that song. Like, don't sing that song. But really what concerns me about this is, so there can be bad doctrine in old songs, new songs, all of that is true.

So in a certain sense, you have to take it case by case when it comes to songs. What concerns me actually more, and maybe I'm jumping ahead in the conversation here, but what actually concerns me more than here or there in the music, I can find something that I think is, and I'm not even 100 sure if that's there intentionally, or if it's just someone getting carried away, those kinds of things, I'm more concerned actually with what are the doctrinal affirmations of these, in the cases of the places I think we have in mind now, organizations, churches, or at least big organizations that are, and labels now, recording labels, that what is the doctrinal affirmations of those places that are producing this music?

Because in reality, what we see happening is, the music is very pop, the music is very good. And by the way, notice, I haven't actually given you an opinion yet, I'm just setting the stage. The music is good, everybody loves the music in terms of just its appeal, right?

And so people listen to that, and then they go to concerts, or conferences, or whatever, ostensibly to hear for a praise and worship night or something, again, mostly about the music, but then there's doctrine, right?

To the extent that something like that is happening, my bigger concern is not actually just that there might be, not that it shouldn't concern us when there's bad doctrine, but the bigger concern is, is this a pathway to something else that is more straightforwardly a problem?

Yeah. In a much more robust way, because there's actual didactic teaching about things like that. What do you think?

Well, I have a question. So have you found, because that's an important point that you made, it can be a gateway. I mean, music is, I remember when I was in fifth grade Did I say gateway? I almost hate that I said that.

That's a good, I think that's a good word. It kind of made me think, when I was in fifth grade, I was part of the D .A .R .E. program, kind of the just say no to drugs sort of deal, and I remember Officer Richie, Officer Richie, it was this Italian guy, he talked like this, like he was from Jersey or something like that, and he always had a red face.

The image kind of pops out at me. And he'd always start every talk with the kids. He goes, look around, the person that you're sitting next to might be dead by the time you graduate. We were like in fifth grade, we were like, and so he would talk about, that it is very easy to succumb to peer pressure and get into drugs and things like that.

And he'd often refer to marijuana, or the devil's lettuce, as some people call it, as the gateway drug, right? Some people argue, well, it's not that bad, but it can be a gateway into more severe things.

And so I would say that a lot of worship music can be kind of the marijuana, so to speak, the gateway drug into things that are more severe. So I would agree with you. We do need to be very careful. It's very funny that Pine Creek is here in the comments, and hey, Doug, how's it going?

And he actually left a comment that I agree with. Here we go. Here's Doug. He says, I always pre-read the lyrics before singing worship songs. Now, why is Doug singing worship songs? That might be a topic for another discussion, but good Christians should do this.

I think that is correct. I think that if you are on a worship team, or you are in charge of getting the music together, I think it's very important that a worship pastor should be concerned with the lyrics of the songs that they're singing.

I mean, is there any instance in which you've seen people kind of not make that an important thing? I have. People are like, oh, it's not a big deal.

Have you ever had that experience with anyone? Oh, sure. And I think there are, I've been in good churches where, and I say this like I'm some authority. I'm not. But I have preached in hundreds of churches when I was in evangelism going around of various denominations.

And I've seen worship leaders, and this has been often, I'm gonna tell you, this has been often, that the pastor has said, hey, one of the things we wanna do is we wanna find out if you're willing to tell us what you plan on preaching on Sunday, because we want the worship leader to be able to get music that kind of supports that or compliments that.

And so there have been places where I know that they think about what's being sung and even what's being sung based on what the preacher's preaching and things like that. And I think that's great. There have been a lot of cases where either because it's a very big church and they think they have to, it's what all the big churches do, or because they're a smaller church and the guy doing the worship or the woman doing the worship or whatever the case may be, they don't have, they don't really have time to put all the effort into sussing out the theological issues.

And so as a result, they just, you know, whatever seems to be the popular recommended worship songs of the day, well, that's what we do. And in a certain respect, though that's not the ideal, I can certainly understand how that happens.

And so, yeah, I've seen,.

I think I've seen that happen, yeah. Okay, so here's the thing. So we know some of these popular songs that come out of Bethel, Hillsong, and we kind of all know the controversies surrounding that. I mean, I don't know if you saw the Hillsong documentary.

Have you seen it? No, but I'm aware of the scandals. Yeah, yeah. Well, the documentary was really interesting. My wife and I, we watched it and it was very fascinating. But we know that out of these churches, there's some pretty bad theology.

I remember when I was struggling finding good sermons to just listen to, because I was listening to a lot of apologetics and a lot of theology, and I was like, you know, I just really need to, I need to listen to a sermon and I need to kind of allow a nice sermon to edify me, a biblical sermon.

So I asked someone, you know, do you have any suggestions? And, you know, they listed, and I'm an apologist, so my heresy meters go up really easy. And they gave me a list of, I think only one of them was Orthodox.

And I know Joel Olsteen was on there. I know Stephen Furtick was on there. And I was like, you should listen to Stephen Furtick. And I'm just like, please step back, because I'm about to explode. You know, there's some pretty bad theology that comes out of these churches, but these churches are making, and I know this is, people will differ.

The music is good. I mean, aesthetically, the way it sounds, in terms of bringing out certain emotions that cater to that context of worship. It's almost like it has the ability to create an atmosphere that you can touch.

It's almost like when you're done with the worship and the music stops, it almost feels like you've stepped out of the presence of God. It's weird. It's something you can feel. How should we navigate the power of music, even music that has maybe Orthodox lyrics, but comes out of these churches that really promote, I think, very detrimental doctrine?

How should we navigate that in your opinion?

Yeah, so I don't know, but I'll give you what I think are some important things to keep in mind as you make a decision about this. I have really gone back and forth, even just today, thinking about this issue.

So as I've told you, the organizations themselves and their affirmations are my biggest concern. Those are the things that I'm most worried about because the didactic teaching is obviously straightforward, will be more clear to the person, even if it's false.

On the other hand, music is powerful in and of itself because you can change a culture with things like their entertainment, their music, their cultural stories that they tell. We talked a little bit about that with Star Wars as like a cultural myth that our culture tells itself.

So I'm more concerned about the organization than I am the, but if you find a particular song that's problematic, I think that's, obviously, yeah. If that's not salvageable, I think I remember Mike Winger saying about reckless love.

He said, so yeah, reckless doesn't work, but he said, at the time, he said, you could say selfless love or something like that. He said, you make up your own mind. So I can't say whether a person shouldn't do that, but there's two concerns that I think we should think about specifically.

If you determine that the theology there is bad, like you kind of just suggested, and then I think that one thing to consider is in buying the music or in enjoying the music even in church, and that church is giving, is in some way indirectly from your perspective, funding this organization or these organizations that if they are teaching false doctrine, you're in some way indirectly making that a bigger organization that's able to,.

In a more effective way, teach false doctrine. Yeah. Okay. So, well, okay, so let's give some pushback because I know someone who's standing there is like, listen, I use Well, by the way, I don't mean to cut you off on your own show,.

But I did want to get this out. I am in a minute going to give what I think is the best reason on the other side, perhaps not to suddenly pull the plug on all this. So, but go ahead. What were you going to say?

Well, I know that there are people who say, listen, I have seen God move when singing these songs and these sorts of things, you know, and someone could make the argument, well, wait a minute. Okay, so we shouldn't purchase these songs and use these songs because it's kind of like we are providing financial resources to these churches who are promoting all sorts of terrible doctrine.

Okay, I get it. But what happens when you buy sneakers or when you buy some clothing line that has been using, you know, sweatshop workers, right? It's like you're indirectly supporting all sorts of things when your money goes to other things.

So like, look, so hypocritical, at least in this instance, this music is actually edifying people and God is using it, right? We've often heard people say that God can strike a blow with a crooked stick.

So, okay, the church is a little off, but who's got perfect theology? The music is a powerful tool. How would you speak into somebody who's coming from that perspective?

Well, I might agree. I mean, it depends on the severity of the doctrinal issue, right? You know, if like, let's just, let's just go to an extreme. Let's imagine that a church was teaching Mormon theology, but they wrote songs that theologically were almost perfectly acceptable to most Christians, or maybe they're not, or maybe they're a oneness church or a Unitarian type church in that respect.

They're not Trinitarian, but they write music that in all, every other respect is incredibly wonderful. Like, is there a line at which you would say, okay, well, because I understand that you don't want to cut off your nose to spite your face sort of thing, but I do feel like there is a categorical difference between where I buy or what kind of bread I buy and who makes it, right?

You know, to feed my family, versus who is providing the worship that my church is going to use to give me a sort of a recitation to say to God in an act of worship, and then what are they doing with the funds I gave them to give me that?

Sure. It seems a bit more direct in a way that you can't easily, like you could, and it wouldn't be even that hard. Well, that would go into the second point I want to make that's actually in favor of it, but at least in a practical sense and taking sentimentality out of it, it's not like they're the only people making worship music.

You could get worship music from more reliable places, right? It's not like that's not there. Well, right here, I had a conversation with someone and I won't mention the person's name, but they were like, listen, you can get music other places, but let's be honest, the music's kind of whack.

It's like, not all of them, but a lot of theologically sound music is just not that good, right? And so you have this kind of conundrum that if you want the good sounding music, you got to go with the heretics.

If you want the theologically sound hymns, you got to go with the out of date, 20 years behind style of music. Now I know that's not true.

No, it does feel that way. I mean, like I'll tell you, I can worship God. I think because of being in so many different churches, I've kind of, and I'm not saying this to sound pious, please, I have a lot of shallow issues, but in this respect, I've kind of developed the ability to worship God wherever I'm at, because I had to, if I was going to worship God, because I was on the road at a different church every week.

So if they were singing a 1990s youth group type song, like

Like what? Can you give us an example of a 1990s youth group song?

Shelter, what's the one about the shelter, my refuge, my shelter. There's the Heart of Worship. That was one we sang a lot. I'm coming back to the Heart of Worship. Shout to the Lord, remember that?

Shout to the Lord. Shout to the Lord, that's the one. That's right. Shout to the Lord. See, if they're singing something like that, I can get into it, man. Scott, go ahead, why don't you sing a verse?

Why don't you sing a verse?