Presup & the Christian Mind w/ Jeff Durbin

Introduction and the Epic Online Calvinism Conference

Welcome back to another episode of Revealed Apologetics. I'm your host, Eli Ayala. And today I have a special guest who I now believe he has rightfully, at least in my eyes, he has rightfully earned the name Ninja.

He is the Ninja pastor. And what I mean by that, if you know anything about ninjas, I grew up watching Kung Fu movies and martial arts movies and Ninja movies. They're very elusive. And this pastor Jeff has been very elusive because of his busy schedule.

It was very difficult to schedule, but we were able to get a scheduled interview here. And so I'm very grateful for pastor Jeff of Apology at Church, taking the time out of his busy schedule to be here and to talk with me about, I think, a really important topic.

As you guys know, we place a great emphasis upon presuppositional apologetic methodology. But for those who are very familiar with the method and the foundation of the method, it's much more than an apologetic.

I think it has application with respect to everything that we do. And so I'm very excited to have Jeff here and to share his thoughts on this specific topic. So before we do that, though, I'd like to quickly remind people, if you look at the screen there, the Epic Online Calvinism Conference, featuring myself, Dr. James White, Dr. Guillaume Bignon, Saiten Bruggenkade, and Scott Christensen.

We're going to be speaking on various aspects of Calvinism. And it's not your generic tulip conference, although that's important, right? We're going to be talking about some really interesting topics.

Dr. White is going to be covering some key texts in defense of Calvinism. Guillaume is going to be responding to popular uses of analogies with respect to how people attack Calvinism. He's going to teach us the proper use of analogies and why anti-Christian analogies fall flat.

Saiten Bruggenkade is going to be speaking about the street Calvinism. How do we engage in evangelism and people on the street while maintaining and defending kind of a Calvinistic theology in a down-to-earth and biblical way?

And Scott Christensen is going to teach us how to defend a compatibilistic view of freedom. And myself, my topic is unknown. I'm still working through that. I might cover something relating to Calvinism and Molinism, but I'll keep you guys updated.

So that is January 21st. It's going to be from 10 .30 in the morning to 4 .30 in the evening. So an all day thing. And you can sign up right now by going to revealedapologetics .com. You click on the Precept You dropdown menu, and you could RSVP your spot right there.

You can do that right now if you'd like to. And that's a great way to support Revealed Apologetics as well. All right, well, without further ado, I'd like to introduce my special guest, Pastor Jeff Durbin of Apology at Church.

How are you doing, Pastor Jeff? I'm doing wonderful, brother. Thank you for having me. It's an honor. Well, it is an honor as well. It was very difficult to get you, but I know that you're super busy, and I'm so grateful for you making the time.

I did want to say that we do have something in common. I too am a black belt. Oh, really? A black belt in karate movies. And there's a very big difference. Yeah, there's a difference, yeah. That's right.

I have an episode. It's a short video. It's called What I Learned About Apologetics from Bruce Lee, and I do my best Bruce Lee impression. You got to check it out. Oh, I want to see that. Yeah, for sure.

Okay. So what have you been up to? Why don't you share with folks what you've been up to, and then we'll jump right into our discussion.

Ministry at Apologia Church, Apologia Studios, and End Abortion Now

Yeah, so as we were talking before the show started today, my main responsibility regularly is shepherding and caring for Apologia Church. And so I serve alongside three of the greatest elders ever, Pastor Zach, Pastor Luke, and Pastor James White.

And so we're regularly preaching, teaching, shepherding, doing discipleship. And so I was just telling you before the show started today, I've been talking since about noon today straight with the radio show and then counseling, and here we are.

So if I start to get a little weird or say strange things, just pull me back.

I actually do have a black belt in talking. So if you go mute, I can talk a lot. So go ahead, right on.

So yeah, so it's shepherding, pastoring Apologia Church, Apologia Studios, all the ministry and the work that we have going on at Apologia Studios, whether it's teaching ministry, evangelism videos, we're doing a lot more stuff in 2023.

We have a lot of things planned just for more engagement and bringing the gospel into conflict with different belief systems in the world. And so there's more coming with that. So we're in production and plans right now for just more content in that area, because that seems to be the thing that blesses the church the most is when we allow the church to see the Christian faith and the word of God come into collision with all these opposing systems.

And that's what helps to raise up elders and to bless the church and get the church on the street. And end abortion now. This is one of the central ministries of Apologia Church. We have, I think about 900 local churches that have been raised up and trained to go to save lives at the abortion mill.

And we have, of course, in the last couple of years been able to put a bunch of bills in for equal protection for all humans from conception. This last year, we had a historic moment in that we got a bill through the hearing in Louisiana and onto the floor, which raised no small stir.

We had CNN talking about it and Rachel Maddow and the New York Times and people all across the country. And so we're getting closer and closer. Now that Roe versus Wade is no longer a factor we have to overcome.

We have six, I believe it's six states next legislative session with bills of abolition going in. And one of the first ones is Georgia. And so we've got a team on the ground in Georgia. I've gone back and forth two or three times in the last couple of months to prep with our team of churches and organizations that are out there right now to help us once the bill goes in.

And so, yeah, we've got a lot going on.

A lot going on, a lot more work to do but I have to be honest, it's pretty amazing. I used to teach history. I used to teach social studies and we would, of course when we're preparing, I worked in a Christian school in the public schools as well on the Island of New York.

And when I teach social studies in history there's a whole section here where we teach the kids important court cases. And of course, Roe versus Wade is definitely part of it. It pops up on the Regents exams and things like that.

And to think that while we still have more work to do the fact that it's overturned and we can talk about that right now is pretty remarkable.

It is, and one of the challenging things is and this goes to our discussion today in terms of the Christian mind and knowledge and those sorts of things. We've been fighting against the issue of abortion explicitly as Christians and standing on the word of God and making this about the gospel and pointing people to God's law word and not doing it compromise not doing it with neutrality.

And one of the things that we were saying is throughout this process in the last couple of years is as we've got bills in of equal protection we were saying, you have to ignore Roe versus Wade establish justice, honor God, do what's right for these preborn children.

And at the same time, we recognize that the court has a duty before God because they have to obey Christ because Christ is the King. He has all authority. We were saying the court has to obey God and overturn what was an evil decision and inconsistent position.

And thankfully we were able actually in God's providence to have a constitutional attorney argue in the Dobbs case with an amicus brief and our amicus brief, I just encourage everyone to get a chance to see it.

I believe you can get it at Abolish Abortion Texas. It's Bradley Pierce. I think it's on their website. And it goes to what we're talking about today. Take a look at that amicus brief and the way that that is framed in comparison to how the pro-life establishments and even pro-life attorneys have fought in the past.

This one starts off with its table of authorities. And the first table of authorities is the Holy Bible. And it points people to God's word. It points people to Christ as King. It argues that the court needs to repent of the sinful decision they made.

And also of course argues on their own ground in terms of the law of the nation and how this was inconsistent. But thankfully that is out of the way. We argued that it needed to be out of the way even though we were saying to legislators that you need to ignore Roe, just like the Dred Scott decision, the states ignored the Dred Scott decision that they should have ignored Roe versus Wade because it was never the law of the land.

It was the court opinion. All that to say, we're thanking God that Roe versus Wade is out of the way because one of the obstacles we had was that as we were challenging legislators with God's word and with the gospel, one of the things they would come back to us with was, but Roe versus Wade is the law of the land.

So we had to refute that and also just deal with ultimately what was cowardice on the part of legislators not being courageous enough to do the right thing before God. And so all that to say, we're grateful to God that it's out of the way.

And so at least we don't have that excuse any longer.

Defining Presuppositional Apologetics as Sola Scriptura in Philosophy

Awesome, yeah, that's amazing. All right, well, let's jump into the main topic of our discussion tonight. And I wanna ask you about presuppositional apologetics. Of course, when people think presuppositional apologetics, you, Dr. White, Greg Bonson and others really are the first kinds of people that come to mind.

What I found helpful about listening to your content is that you do a very good job simplifying things, not being simplistic about it, but simplifying it and putting it at a level where kind of the average person kind of relate.

So I've asked a lot of guests this question. I'm gonna ask you in your own words, how would you define presuppositionalism and why do you hold to it?

Well, that's an important way to frame that question because this is what's been interesting to me in terms of the discussion and the debates between classical apologetics or evidentialist apologetics versus presuppositionalism or covenant apologetics or revelational epistemology or whatever.

For me, this conversation was a little easier to get in terms of once you see it, particularly as a Reformed person, you get it. That the issue that we typically defend and understand as Christians within the Christian community, say we're arguing with the cult, we're arguing with Mormonism or the Jehovah's Witnesses, or say we're in dispute with Roman Catholicism, we typically understand the centrality of God's revelation.

Like we get it there. Like when I'm debating the Mormon and the Mormon is making claims about Joseph Smith's visions or Joseph Smith's revelation, what we typically say as Christians, it's instinctive as well, the word of God says, the revelation of God says.

And so Joseph is wrong. And how do I know he's wrong? Because God has revealed himself and he's given his word. And this is what God says. Or when we have the discussion with Rome, our Roman Catholic friends, what we typically understand is the centrality of the doctrine of Sola Scriptura.

And that's that the scriptures alone are the sole infallible rule of faith for the church. And so we get it there, that when we're talking to the Roman Catholic, what we're trying to impress upon them is that God's revelation is the reference point.

God spoke and that's what you test. And so if Jesus says, your word is truth, it's the plumb line, it's the standard by which you know something is right or not, that's the standard for the church. And so when we're talking to Rome, we emphasize Sola Scriptura because that's a necessity.

We have to impress upon the Roman Catholic that their commitment to the Bible is the word of God and the church speaks authoritatively and tells you what the Bible says, that commitment essentially eats up the Bible.

It makes the Bible go away. And what you're really saying in that case is that with Rome, the dispute is, they've got the revelation of God, but they've also got church tradition, the magisterium of the church.

And so what they say is we have these two divine deposits, we have scripture and we have divine tradition or we essentially have the church. So the dispute with Rome, and we get this again instinctively as Christians when we're in these debates, is that we're saying Sola Scriptura, that the revelation of God is the reference point, all things must be tested by that.

And that's not a theological novum in church history. You can see Augustine saying that, you can see Athanasius saying that, you can see it throughout church history. It wasn't new, but we're saying is, this is the revelation of God.

So it's Sola Scriptura, that scripture is the reference point in terms of how do I know what's true? How do I have certainty? Or you have what Rome essentially believes and that's Sola Ecclesia, that it's the church that is ultimate because how do I know what the Bible says?

Well, I can't just read it for myself and get the clarity of God's word. The church has to tell me authoritatively what I'm supposed to believe. So essentially it's Sola Ecclesia. Now, again, when we're in those disputes, we get it and Christians instinctively get it.

No, it's the revelation of God that's supreme. And the issue of presuppositional apologetics, I've always said to simplify it is just, this is Sola Scriptura in philosophy. So the heart of Sola Scriptura is that the revelation of God is supreme.

The heart of Sola Scriptura is a revelational epistemology. That's what Sola Scriptura is. It's that God has revealed himself. So how do I know what's true? I go to the revelation of God because God has spoken.

So in the issue of apologetics, what we're essentially saying is that God has spoken. And so that's the reference point. This is the point where we have truth. This is how I can know, this is the standard.

And so I think that presuppositional apologetics is just Sola Scriptura in the area of philosophy and worldview and apologetics.

Yeah, I like how the first person I heard say this was Scott Oliphant. I don't know if it's original with him, but he said that apologetics, and of course, for him, presuppositional apologetics is just Christian theology applied to the area of unbelief.

Yeah. And of course, theology that's derived from the soil of scripture and things like that. So excellent. So now we know what apologetics is. We know what presuppositional apologetics is. And when people think of your ministry, Jeff, and what your church is doing, it's closely associated with lots of evangelism.

There are a lot of videos out there where you're talking to Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses and atheists. How has the presuppositional approach impacted the way that you evangelize? Was there a difference?

But when you were evangelizing, not really concerned with a lot of these apologetic methodology questions, and then you became a presuppositionalist, how does it impact the way you engage people on the street?

How Presuppositionalism Reunites Evangelism and Apologetics

Dr. Bonson simply challenged me to think more like a Christian and more consistently like a Christian in every area of life. So when I first heard the gospel and came to faith in Christ, I was super passionate about apologetics.

I mean, I've said this often, like when I was in Bible college, my two favorite courses that I did the best in were apologetics and eschatology. My two favorite areas, and I aced everything. And because I just consumed and consumed and consumed, and so with Christian apologetics, I would just devour everything I could in terms of the historicity of the Bible, evidences for the resurrection, biblical archeology.

I just read so many books on cosmology and the evidences of design, whether it's cosmic ripples. And you can go down the line of all the different things that I just devoured and all the evidences of history of the Bible and the transmission of the text, which is all really, really wonderful stuff.

But I wanted to be able to essentially gather everything I could in terms of evidence and just drop it on the unbeliever and say, see, there's just no way to avoid this. And when I started, of course I got introduced to Dr. Bonson like most people have through the Gordon Stein, Dr. Bonson debate.

And I have often said when I first heard that debate that I was in awe because I thought I have never, I have never in my life seen a Christian so wonderfully defend the Christian worldview and annihilate unbelief as I just listened to there.

And I don't really understand anything I just heard. So I had to listen to it like, you know, a hundred times. And every time to this day, every time I listened to it, I learned more and more and more.

And so that was my introduction. I was like, wait, what is this? This, the thing I noticed first, and I think most people feel this way too, is that Dr. Bonson was arguing like a Christian the whole way through.

And this was really a challenge to this man's sin and unbelief. And that was different than I was used to, accustomed to seeing. And so what I, what immediately was a correction for me is that I began to see that my evangelism was detached from my apologetics.

That was the thing that I think hit me first was that I realized, I recognized, oh my goodness, I am walking into these encounters, say with the average atheist, I'm walking into it and I'm placating to them and I'm pretending neutrality.

And that was very challenging to me. And yeah, I am divorcing my evangelistic effort here with this guy from my apologetics. And yeah, I'm almost in this moment, I'm acting like God's word is not authoritative.

And I'm losing the ability to really challenge this man's unbelief and sin against God to come to Christ, which is the whole reason I'm talking to him is that I want him to know Jesus. And so what presuppositional apologetics brought together for me is that it challenged me on the neutrality.

It challenged me on the inconsistency of my epistemology and how do I know anything at all? And it really healed. And I think that's a proper term for it. It healed the disconnect between my evangelism and my defense of the faith.

I went listening to that. I mean, I've listened to that debate. You won't know that this is a big deal, but I've listened to that debate more times than I've watched Rocky IV. Now, if anyone knows me, I've watched Rocky IV more times.

Than any movie I've ever watched. Yeah, and it's one of the best. It is absolutely one of the best. I always waffle between three or four, which one's better. I pretend like five didn't happen, but three or four, it's between those two.

But I remember noticing that very thing that Bonson argued consistently as a Christian. I remember getting goosebumps when there was the cross-examination and Dr. Stein asked Dr. Bonson, mathematics, theistic?

He goes, yes. And then he goes, Christian theistic. I'm like, yeah. Specifically saying, I'm gonna go out on a limb and I'm just gonna go straight. Yes, you need the Christian God, not a generic deity.

You need a Christian God to make sense out of mathematics. I just love the confidence that he put forth, which leads me to my next question. How does presuppositionalism as an apologetic methodology, as a methodology that is rooted in the authority of God's word, how does it help believers with their confidence in terms of really putting themselves out there and engaging unbelievers?

Because when I think of presuppositional apologetics, I think of little David swinging the little, you know, the stones, right? Where like these little people trying to go out into this big world and engage with people, but God has equipped us with these stones that if we trust in the Lord, they hit right where they're supposed to hit.

How does presuppositional methodology help believers with the confidence that they're able to go out and engage the world?

Confidence in the Fear of the Lord and the Foolishness of the World

Well, this is important because scripture says that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Scripture teaches that the fool says in his heart, there is no God. Scripture places the foolish, hard-hearted rebellion of man in a position of folly.

And what presuppositional apologetics does is it roots you in God's truth, God's wisdom, God's knowledge, God's understanding, so that you can see the world through the lens that God gave us. This is the way God says the world is.

God is true. This is certain that you can have full confidence in this revelation. And so I understand things about God and this world and the person in front of me that I have certainty about. And I also understand, and this is why, you know, presuppositional apologetics is a reformed epistemology come to life.

I also understand that the unbeliever in front of me is not going to be swayed by my very fancy arguments or the just really great debating skills that I have. Ultimately, the moment that's occurring between us is about the glory of God and it's about the gospel itself.

So my evangelism is wrapped up within my apologetic. And so I know that the only way this person's gonna see the truth and have their eyes open is through a sovereign work of the Spirit of God. And so I recognize that I'm the means of that happening, but I also recognize that God only brings people to life through his truth and his message.

It's not my fancy arguments and my amazing debate skills is that it's the gospel that's the power of God for salvation. So it changes everything. I mean, I don't know everything. There are guys that are way better at philosophy and apologetics than I am, much smarter than I am.

But I know when I go out there to represent Christ that I'm a means of his grace in people's lives or a means of his justice and his condemnation. This is a prophetic ministry. So apologetics is a prophetic ministry.

It's forth telling God's truth to the world. And I recognize that this is all in the hands of a sovereign God and God uses his word to transform and raise people to life. And so it gives me full confidence.

And I think it's important bringing this back to scripture the way that Paul talks about the world and their wisdom and their understanding and their philosophies and their systems. He says in 1 Corinthians 1, 20 to 25, he says where's the one who is wise?

Where is the scribe? Where's the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? And so he continues on for since in the wisdom of God the world did not know God through wisdom.

It pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom but we preach Christ crucified a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

And I think one aspect of that we can highlight here in terms of when Christians succumb to the academy or to the world and sort of try to dumb down the Christian message or the confidence that we have in the revelation of God to say, well, okay I'll adopt your principles and I'll abandon some of mine because I really want you to respect me or I want you to see what I'm saying as very erudite and sophisticated.

And by the way, presuppositional apologetics is the I'm sorry to say, I think it's the most deep and sophisticated I really do. It's devastating in that world.

Well, Jeff, when you use the evidential approach you're talking about like science and history. And when you talk about presuppositionalism like you get really deep into it, you're talking about the very fabric and nature of reality and knowledge itself.

It's everything underneath it.

That makes everything else possible. And it's deep, deep, deep stuff. And that's one thing I love about presuppositional apologetics. And I love how Bonson used to say it it tells you how old he was and where this goes back to.

He says that this can be done by Sophie the wash woman or the highest level. And I love that he calls her Sophie, the wash woman. So, but it is intense. There are times where I'm reading stuff from like frame or from Bonson or Van Til and I'm like, I don't have a clue.

I got to read this 50 times. I mean, it's that deep. But when we as Christians say, I need to succumb to like oh, I want them to respect me. And I want them to see me as sophisticated and wise. Paul says here, the Greeks seek wisdom but we preach Christ crucified a stumbling block to Jews and folly to the Gentiles.

Like Paul didn't, he wasn't, he didn't suffer any delusions here. He's like, they think that we're stupid. They think we're unwise. He says, but he says, but to those who are called both Jews and Greeks, Christ, the power of God and the wisdom of God.

But for the foolishness of God is wiser than men. And the weakness of God is stronger than men. And he knew the story. Paul knew, Paul knew what was up. And for Paul, the issue was sinful rebellion of men and human folly and arrogance.

And this message of the cross breaks through all of that but it only does it through a sovereign God. And here's the thing, it happens to be the truth whether you like it or not but God uses the truth to bring people to life.

And I think when you ask the question, like, well how does this affect your evangelism on the streets? Well, I don't do everything perfectly and I still myself have a lot to learn for sure. And I'm still growing, but I can tell you this that I know that I'm in the hands of a sovereign God and he has a perfect plan.

And I know that he uses his word to change the world and the gospel. He's not gonna do it through neutrality. He's not gonna do it through compromise. All of the history of the Bible, all the redemptive history you see that when God changes his people or he changes the world he does it through uncompromising truth.

And that is a strength I think of presuppositional apologetics is just that point. Excellent, thank you so much for that.

Folks, just to give you a heads up I'm talking with Jeff Durbin. If you're just tuning in, I guess not the radio but you're just listening in. I'm talking to Pastor Jeff Durbin of Apologia Church. If you have any questions, we will be taking some questions.

I do wanna go easy on a doctor. Oh, you should, I almost called you Dr. Durbin. There we go, double D there. Pastor Jeff. I'm only an MDiv. That's right, okay. A low MDiv. That's right. You haven't gotten your black belt in theology.

I have not, I have not. Okay, but we will be taking some questions but I do wanna respect his time as he has had a very busy schedule. But I just wanna throw that out there for folks. Now, you spoke about the certainty that we could have as a Christian.

If you don't mind, I'd like to jump a little bit into philosophy, not too much because I don't wanna, you know, you look like you've been through a lot today. So I don't wanna put you in the ring. Is it showing on my face?

Yeah, you're kind of just like, well, Eli, we need to be really excited about the kingdom. You look tired, but it's okay.

But when you speak of the certainty that we have as Christians and that there's a certainty of the truth of the Christian worldview, I think it's very important to make the philosophical distinction between what we would call psychological certainty and epistemic certainty.

Can you tell us the difference between those kinds of certainty and how does a presuppositional argument get us beyond mere psychological certainty and gets us to what we call epistemic certainty? If you understand the question.

Epistemic Certainty, Self-Attesting Authority, and the Garden

Yeah, so the way that Bonson used to, I think I know what you're aiming at here. The way that Bonson used to frame this is that we're not, when we're engaging in presuppositional apologetics or talking about revelational epistemology, we're not talking about mere persuasion.

Like, does this float your boat? Does this seem true to you? Does this give you, is this satisfying to you intellectually? We're not talking about mere persuasion. We're talking about the very grounding of knowledge at all.

What we're saying here when we talk about epistemic certainty is we're talking about the very grounding, the very reference point for all knowledge claims at all. If you say you know something, how do you know it?

How can you be certain about that thing? And at a certain point, you're gonna have to come back to an ultimate, because as it's often been said before, and I'm sure that your listeners are very aware of this, you can't go back and back and back and back and back and keep going to this infinite line of, well, I know this because this.

I know that because of that. And I'm sure of that because of this thing. There has to be an ultimate. Anything that argues beyond that ultimate is itself the ultimate. That's the very reason you're believing it.

So when we talk about epistemic certainty, when we talk about the word of God, look, this is just, you have to grant this. You're gonna accept it. If this is new to you and you don't like it, you don't like it just being this simple, that's the way the Bible gives it to us.

When scripture gives us the word of God, the revelation of God, it doesn't make excuses for it. It doesn't try to defend it. When God speaks, he speaks with authority because of the nature of who he is.

He has, what we've said before, is a self-attesting authority because of the nature of who he is. And that's the nature of the claim. This is God breathe, it's revelation from God. So from the very beginning of God's revelation, you see at the very start of this revelation, God exists above or outside of his own creation.

There's a creator creation distinction from the beginning. God creates from nothing. And when God creates, he is the eternal God. He's the all powerful God. He's the God with authority. And when God creates, he creates everything and the creatures.

And he says, this is one of the most amazing, in terms of the question of epistemology, how do you know? One of the most amazing and yet simple and beautiful points of contact is the Bible starts with God's creation.

He puts man and woman in the garden and he says this, but not that. So it's simple. I mean, in terms of like, some of the stuff is like, that's so rudimentary and simple. It's a tree, this, but not that.

It's so basic. It's just like Bonson said before, it was totally arbitrary. God could have said, don't walk that direction. Don't pick up that stone. The point was, were they gonna have an obedient frame of mind where God as creator says, you can do this, you can't do that.

And God says, the day you do, you will surely die. And of course you have another, this in the same moment, in terms of epistemology, how do you know? Satan comes in and what's he do with his subtlety and his craftiness?

He deceives Eve and he says, hath God said? And he says, no, you won't die. You'll be like God, knowing good and evil. And of course, I love the discussion on that in terms of it's not experientially knowing and experiencing good and evil.

It's that you will be the sovereign determiner for yourself of what's right and wrong. He told you what's right and wrong. If you do it, you will be the determiner of what's right and wrong. So here you have God's voice, his revelation.

Now Satan is another voice that comes in and says, God says, don't eat. Satan says, eat. And so now you have that. And so of course, Adam sins against God with the high hand and he does what God said don't do.

And what you have there in that moment is this really amazing point of contact in terms of epistemology. And this was a part of the debate with Dr. Sproul and Dr. Bonson. It was, I think, one of the best parts of the entire debate because it got to the main issue.

On what basis, in terms of moral basis and intellectual basis, should they have obeyed that command? Because, and again, if you haven't heard this discussion.

Between Bonson and Sproul, you should hear this. I just listened to it yesterday. Yeah. I don't know if you're familiar with the show, The Wise Disciple. I've heard of that, yes. Yeah, he's doing a video there.

I'm coming on his show. We're gonna be talking about that debate.

And I think it's an excellent one. If people haven't listened to it, I highly recommend it. And so this is an important part in terms of, this is all epistemology. This is all epistemology in terms of this discussion.

Here's the deal. God simply said, this, but not that, and the day you do, you'll die. That's it. He didn't say, because this thing over there, or because he just said, this is my word, this is what's gonna happen.

And so Satan comes in and he offers a different theory. He says, no, this is actually what's gonna take place. And so now, the question has to be asked in terms of that moment of, how do you know? And how should they have operated?

Is that me? I think that's my, sorry. For some reason, I think my, on the computer over there, my phone is up. Can you hang on one second?

I'll make sure that kills. I'll tell a Bible joke. No, I'm just kidding. Guys, I hope you're enjoying this conversation. If you have not already, I would greatly appreciate it if you like and subscribe and share the video, share this interview, share other interviews.

That really helps. Just come from like a background perspective as someone who has a YouTube channel. It's very helpful if you guys show your support by thumbing up, thumbs up and things like that. So I'd greatly appreciate if you guys do that.

Hope you guys are enjoying this discussion. I have one more question for Jeff once he finishes up here with respect to presuppositional apologetic methodology. Then we're gonna shift into talking about how this relates to the Christian mind.

So I just wanna throw that out there. Sorry about that. That's okay. I see some questions coming in. We'll get to those towards the back end of the episode. I see some really good ones there and we'll be sure to get to them.

So go ahead, Jeff. Yeah, so the question of the theory of knowledge epistemology, it's all built into that first moment we have in the garden. You have to ask the question on what basis ought Eve and Adam to have moved forward in that encounter in terms of morally, intellectually.