How to Lose Friends and Alienate People! | Theocast

Theocast

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:00

Hi, this is Justin. Happy New Year to all of you listeners out there. Today on Theocast, John and I are gonna have a conversation that we think might be applicable to things that you perhaps have gone through in the holiday season.

00:13

Maybe time with friends, time with family, and let's just be frank, not everybody agrees.

00:20

Maybe even on Christ and the gospel at all, but even amongst believers, maybe some of your family and friends do not understand the gospel or the law or the scriptures the way that you do.

00:30

How is it that we should approach disagreement about theology or about the Christian life? What are the best ways to be winsome over the long haul to see people come to see the sufficiency of Christ for them?

00:43

John and I are gonna talk about that from the perspective of not just our ministry or being pastors, but just being

00:48

Christians and engaging others over things that we disagree about. We hope this is helpful to you. We mean for it to be pastoral and encouraging.

00:56

Stay tuned. Before we jump into the podcast, we wanna tell you about a really important announcement. We're doing a one -day conference on suffering and the return of Christ.

01:05

It's gonna be January 18th, 2024 in Escondido, California. And we're gonna be doing it with the

01:11

Bounding Grace Radio with the host, Chris Gordon. And we're gonna be hosting it at his church, which is

01:17

Escondido United Reformed Church. We're gonna be having four sessions, gonna start in the morning,

01:23

Thursday morning at 10 a .m., and we're gonna go all the way through the evening and we're gonna have a special guest with us that evening,

01:28

Dr. Bob Godfrey, who's gonna be joining us in a panel as we discuss the importance of suffering and eschatology and why our eschatology matters.

01:37

Please go and register. It's gonna be January 18th in Escondido, California.

01:43

And we look forward to seeing you there. Welcome to Theocast, encouraging weary pilgrims to rest in Christ.

01:59

Conversations about the Christian life from a confessional, reformed, and pastoral perspective. Your hosts today are

02:05

John Moffitt, who is pastor of Grace Reformed Church in Spring Hill, Tennessee. And I'm Justin Perdue, pastor of Covenant Baptist Church in Asheville, North Carolina.

02:13

We are meeting today to podcast. And if you are listening to this, this is the first episode of the new year.

02:20

We are recording this well in advance. So if we're still here. We're in November. If the Lord has tarried and he's still given us life, and this podcast is releasing, it is

02:28

January the 3rd of 2024. Yeah, it's weird to think that.

02:34

So greetings from the past, you know, back to the future, all of those things. Brief announcement before I hand it over to John to probably make another announcement or two, and then tell us what we're going to talk about.

02:44

Today's January 3rd. As you're listening to this, two weeks from tomorrow, January the 18th, God willing, there will be an event in Escondido, California, Metro San Diego, that will be co -hosted by Theocast and Abounding Grace Radio.

02:57

Our friend Chris Gordon. And so that will be a one -day event leading into the conference at Westminster Seminary, California.

03:04

And so if you're listening to this and you want to attend, you've got a couple of weeks to figure out how to get to San Diego and be with us on Thursday, January 18th.

03:11

We'll leave that with you. We're excited about the event. And as we're talking today, some of the plans are still being worked out.

03:20

We trust by the time you hear this, we'll have figured out what the plans are. All of that, if you're thoroughly confused, John, give the people another announcement and then tell them what we're going to talk about to start the new year.

03:30

Yeah. I mean, to stay up to date on all the things that we're doing, joining the community is probably the easiest way of doing that or our email database.

03:36

So you can join our weekly emails that go out. But yeah, Theocast community is growing well over 800 people now that are in there.

03:42

And it's just, it's a lot of fun. A lot of great conversations happening, people connecting, sharing resources, asking questions.

03:49

It's a safe place because we have rules about what you can and can't do in there.

03:54

And therefore that kind of protects that space, keeping a sweet spirit, which is what we're going to be talking about today.

04:01

Theocast has been working so hard for so many years to get into the media space, right?

04:08

YouTube, podcasting, blogging, whatever means and video so that we can be a part of the dialogue, but do it in such a way that people can actually stomach what you're saying.

04:22

And what I mean by that is that often it's not what you say that offends people, it's how you say it.

04:30

And this is a debate that you and I have been having, Justin, with people for a very long time in the reformed world.

04:36

I'll just go ahead and name some names here, but like Doug Wilson seems to use the exact opposite tactic and thinks that basically you can punch people with a rock and pour cold water on them.

04:47

And if they don't like it, then it's their fault, not yours. And I'm like, well, I don't know if anybody ever likes to have rocks thrown at them.

04:53

And listen, to be fair, Justin and I step into the theological world and we are not unashamed about what we stand for.

05:03

And we're not trying to have everybody like us and be our friends because we don't need someone to be our friends in order, like we need them to know who

05:11

Christ is and the sufficiency of Christ, right? But there is a disposition, there is a heart attitude that comes about when we're talking about theology, specifically when we're debating things like covenant theology, reformed theology, law gospel distinction, legalism, antinomianism, all of these very important conversations, but how we have them, the world is watching.

05:33

I'll just start here, Justin. At times, you and I, we have

05:39

Presbyterian brothers, Lutheran brothers, Episcopalian, different forms of Baptist evangelical that we don't agree with, right?

05:46

But I would hope and pray that when they would see us interact with our friends, like Chris Gordon is a great example, or Chad Byrd or David Zoll, whatever, that the world would look at that and say, well, those two guys, they don't agree, but at least they're disciples of Jesus.

06:00

Because what does Jesus say? The world will know that you're my disciples by the love that you have for one another. And that's what we're hoping can come across when we are speaking about truth or defending truth, or if we're speaking about another brother or sister in Christ, that we would do such in a way that would represent the

06:17

God and the King to whom we love. So that's kind of the conversation that we want to have today. And in light of Justin coming out of the holidays,

06:24

Thanksgiving and Christmas, man, it seems like families just get brutalized through, I think, one, what's going on in our world with wars and Israel and politics and disagreements about theology and Calvinism, all the like.

06:38

So we're coming at this conversation as podcasters, that's fair, but we're coming at it as pastors as well.

06:44

And maybe not everybody out there is hosting a podcast or not everybody out there is a pastor. Fair, but this will be applicable to everyone though, because like you just alluded to, we're coming out of the holiday season.

06:57

And if the listeners out there are anything like some of the members of my local church,

07:03

I know that some of the folks at CBC here in Asheville will talk about like, man,

07:10

I have come to love the confessional reformed faith and I've come to see the law and the gospel this way.

07:17

I've come to see covenant theology this way, the one plan of God in all of scripture and the sufficiency of Jesus Christ.

07:23

And these things have changed my life. They've changed my Christian life. But when I spend time with my family at Thanksgiving or around Christmas or whatever it is, man, it's just hard because my family doesn't agree with me.

07:38

Maybe my family are non -believers and that's its own challenge, or maybe my family are

07:44

Christians, but their theological framework is completely different. And they're antagonistic toward me.

07:54

They're concerned that I've gone over to the dark side. There is so much disagreement that it's hard to have any kind of conversation without it quickly, like either

08:06

I'm internally about to explode or if we engage, it doesn't go well. So how do

08:12

I try to think through these things and how do I navigate difficult conversations and what needs to be my posture as I approach them?

08:21

That's our aim here in this conversation. So certainly we're going to be talking a little bit about our perspective here and our approach here on the show, but that's going to apply, we trust pretty obviously to all of us in our personal lives.

08:36

Let me begin with this, I think is an overarching encouragement, exhortation to us all.

08:42

As we engage in debate over doctrine, or if we're going to engage in robust conversations over what we believe and what this means for our lives, it is absolutely essential if we're talking to other

08:54

Christians that we assume well of our brothers and sisters. We do not impugn motivations and we do not come into the conversation with guns up.

09:06

We don't come in edgy, right? I trust that you have believed in the

09:14

Lord Jesus Christ and that like me, imperfectly but sincerely, you are looking to him for your salvation.

09:20

We are therefore brothers and sisters in the Lord and I trust that you mean well and that you want to honor

09:28

God, that you want to think according to his word, that you want to believe sound doctrine, that you want to live a life that's good for your neighbor and honors the

09:38

Lord. I assume all of those things about you and that's going to very much inform my tone and my posture and how

09:46

I engage. That's pivotal. If we don't start there, I think we're really cutting ourselves off at the knees and derailing the train before it leaves the station because so often people enter into conversations.

10:00

I mean, doing the exact opposite, thinking really badly about their brothers and sisters whom they say they love in Christ.

10:09

You're coming in, like you said, this is a rock fight and we're about to throw blows here.

10:17

You're questioning everything about me and that there clearly is something sinister going on for me to believe such a thing.

10:24

Don't approach the conversation like that because it's going to go nowhere. I know we're going to say a lot more about posture and tone and different things, but that for me at the beginning is really important when you're engaging other believers.

10:38

Remember this. Before I go into other things, John, I'm going to give it over to you.

10:44

I'll let you go. Yeah, biographical for me. I'm a guy that gets really excited about new truths and then things that I feel like are important to Scripture become important to me.

10:58

And at times, I can remember the first time I learned cage stage. I wish somebody would have put me in a cage because I was just so damaging to my wife and to friends around me when

11:10

I first discovered Calvinism and Reformed theology. I was on a war path to convert everybody and some of it was so liberating for me and I was so angry about how

11:22

I had been taught wrong theology that I wanted everyone to experience what I was experiencing. But the thing

11:28

I was lacking was the very thing that I was called to demonstrate, which was patience, meekness, gentleness, open to reason.

11:38

I had people trying to reason with me like, John, we want to hear what you have to say, but you're so harsh.

11:44

In my mind, I'm like, you just don't like the truth. You want to stay in your ways. You don't care about the gospel. And they were actually trying to be reasonable with me and I wasn't open to reason.

11:54

Sometimes when we read this in James, when he says this about wisdom, we think open to reason means that you're going to contemplate bad theology.

12:03

That's not what he means. There are times people are trying to tell you you need to calm down. That's reasonable, open to reason, and you're not being reasonable.

12:13

You're actually closing off any type of wisdom that's coming your way. I find it now that I'm many years later down the road,

12:23

I have a lot of people in my church, and you have shepherded people this way. Sometimes it's husbands for the wife or wife for the husband.

12:29

One's on board, one is not. And the thing that most people get exhausted by me telling them, but it's true.

12:37

What wins them over is patience. It is. It's the gentleness and patience of love that wins people over.

12:47

So even for me in my own life, I was the first of my family to encounter

12:53

Reformed theology too. And I can remember those years and those holiday conversations and all of those things for a long time.

13:01

And it took a long time for my family, my loved ones to come to see the same things, which they do now in God's kindness.

13:10

And we rejoice over these things together, and the Lord's good to us in that. But like you said, a question we should ask is, what is winsome in this whole thing?

13:21

And you said patience, wholeheartedly agree, gentleness. My encouragement alongside those too, especially some of the younger people in our church who are like, man,

13:32

I'm going home. I'm going to be with my parents. Let's just say it, right? They're fundamentalists. They're dispensational.

13:38

They're this or that. They're worried about everything. And just don't see anything the way that I do. And I don't know what to do here.

13:44

My encouragement to them is, the best thing that you can do is to say a lot of things about Jesus that they can't disagree with.

13:54

Just talk about Christ. Find points of agreement. This is a good thing. Right. Find common ground. And for a

14:00

Christian, if you extol the mercies of Christ, if you exalt him, right?

14:07

If you herald the fact that he is sufficient and mighty and able to save, there ain't a

14:13

Christian on the planet that's going to disagree with you. And so talk about that. Measure on Christ.

14:19

Say things about him with which nobody, no Christian could disagree. Start there. And then just love them.

14:26

Love your family. Love your friends. And let that do its thing over the course of years.

14:33

And so play the long game. Love them. Be kind. Say a lot of stuff about Christ.

14:40

Don't get mired in the minutia. Don't go off here, there, and everywhere going down every rabbit hole, chasing everything as far as you possibly could.

14:48

It's going to go nowhere, nowhere good. And yeah, so if you're hearing us, assume well of your brothers and sisters.

14:57

Assume good things about them and their heart and their motivations. Be patient. Play the long game.

15:03

That's right. Be gentle. Love. And then in loving, right? What does loving them mean?

15:09

Certainly being kind, being warm, assuming well of them. All that would be under the umbrella of love, but it would also mean that you are willing to take some things that are said to you that might be unfair, that might be uncharitable.

15:25

And you don't feel the need to immediately vindicate yourself, right? And justify yourself or respond in kind, but you're happy to just kind of swallow it.

15:34

It's like, okay, this is all right. I understand this has struck a nerve. This has struck a cord. I see this happening.

15:39

And this is an internal dialogue. It's like, I'm not going to respond in kind. I'm going to love here. And I'm going to trust that we'll have other opportunities to have this conversation when maybe it's not so heated.

15:49

That's what it looks like at a personal level often. You also have to change the history.

15:55

You know, if you have a history of bickering and fighting and arguing that doesn't end well, that means anytime there comes a subject, they're going to base it off of, they're going to flinch.

16:04

There's going to be a flinch, right? And we've kind of all, it's like the dog who gets beat his entire life when the master comes home and goes to pet him.

16:14

It's like he flinches. Why? Because he thinks he's about to get hit. And so unfortunately for some of us who

16:19

God has sanctified and grown that, you know, we're trying to present a different position, but that takes time.

16:25

Like you have to prove yourself over time that things are different, you know? And I know there are times when

16:31

I have new people in our church. This part is fun for me. Sometimes we have new people in our church and they'll come to a men's group or a men's hangout and they'll say something that is off the wall, nutty.

16:44

And all the guys are looking at me like, oh, John's about to deal with this. What's he going to do with this? I don't say a thing. I just let the guy say his thing.

16:51

I know they all know what's wrong. I don't need to correct it in front of them. And what's interesting is that - If anything, you just maybe gently redirect in a way that's not obvious, you know?

16:59

Yeah. At times I was like, yeah, that's a very, I'll say that's very observant of you.

17:05

That's what I'll say. That's very observant of you. And what I have had is I've had men come back to me weeks later, months later, years later, and say,

17:13

I really appreciate how you didn't humiliate me because I realized weeks later how wrong that was, how off that was.

17:21

And you just kind of just, you know, absorbed it and let it go. And, you know, I'm like, well, the goal is to love this guy into the truth.

17:30

And he doesn't know who we are. He doesn't trust us yet. I love this phrase. I don't know where my dad got it from, but he uses it all.

17:36

He used to use it on me all the time. He said, son, people don't know how much people don't care how much, you know, until they know how much you care.

17:44

Right. And this is where when you're talking with people, I love going back to what you're saying,

17:49

Justin, about finding commonality. You're not doing this as a manipulation, but there's something within the psyche of the heart and the mind.

17:57

When you're with somebody you agree with, like you get excited, you know, like you and I like golf and we get around people like golf.

18:04

We kind of geek out about it. And then immediately there's like this connection to where if we kind of wandered off into something where there might be disagreement, the agreement part kind of creates a fair foundation.

18:15

And so finding commonality with people, what it does is it creates a disposition of trust towards one another, like, hey, this person connects with me.

18:23

And so therefore, if you deal with something that's secondary, you can do it in such a way that where it's like, yeah, that's an interesting perspective.

18:29

I have to think about that. And you don't jump on them right away. What you're saying is this guy's thoughtful. He's willing to hear me out.

18:36

You know, he's willing to listen to this. And I'll give you an example. Of this, where it's something that's a little touchy, like something like homosexuality or transgender or something like that, right?

18:46

Because I know this is a conversation that's real for a lot of people. And so my guess,

18:53

Justin, if you're coming from a conservative background and you have a family member who's trying to convince you of this, that there's nothing wrong with hearing them out and listening to them without cutting them off, without showing faces, without being cold and disinterested, right?

19:05

And there's nothing wrong with saying, you know, those are really interesting arguments. And I'm really thankful that you share those with me and that you trust that, that, you know, you can share that with me.

19:13

And I'd love to think about those and pray about it. Because what you're telling them is, I'm actually listening.

19:19

I'm hearing you, right? Versus immediately jumping in and being condescending or most, what

19:26

I have found, Justin, is that most people know, like they know what your position is.

19:33

They're just wanting to have, sometimes they actually legitimately want to have a conversation with you, but they're afraid to, because they actually want to ask a question, but they're afraid you're going to jump down their throat.

19:43

And so they never have a dialogue around it, right? Whereas I've been able to have dialogues with people about very intense theological disagreements.

19:51

And we've been able to make progress mostly because I actually just sat and listened. Like, just tell me what you think.

19:57

You know, I want to give you the benefit of the doubt. I want to let you be able to talk without you feeling like you're going to be accused.

20:03

This is how we grow. I mean, Justin, I can remember fighting Calvin like it was like a wild animal.

20:09

And now I'm realizing, like, the only reason I fought is I didn't understand it. And I didn't have anybody that was willing to absorb the blows with me.

20:16

I think I would have been converted much sooner if I had someone who has been gracious with me and just had time and been patient versus feeling like I was getting bludgeoned.

20:26

Does that make sense? Hey guys, real quick, some of you are listening to this and it's encouraging to you, but you have questions.

20:32

So where do you go? How do you interact with other people who have the same questions and share resources? We have started something called the

20:39

Theocast Community. We're excited because not only is it a place for you to connect with other like -minded believers, all of our resources there, past podcasts, education materials, articles, all of it's there.

20:50

And you can share it and ask questions. You can go check it out. The link is in the description below. Justin Perdue I want to bring this down to the local church level for a minute because we all live life in communities of believers and all of those churches are comprised of centers.

21:04

And so we're all at different stages too, right, of our growth and development, our understanding, learning, all that.

21:12

And there are any number of things. We talk about this as elders in our church semi -regularly.

21:18

How, you know, when we consider our own lives and the lives of our people, there are any number of things in any number of our lives that need to change, right?

21:29

And like ways we need to grow, ways we need to learn, how we can grow in our understanding and how that might be good for us.

21:38

I think our tendency though, we've hit at this already. I'm just going to say it in a different way. We have a sense of, like if I have a conversation with you about a matter, whether that's doctrinal, theological, or maybe it's more at the level of practice, like what you're doing or how you're arranging your life.

21:56

If I have a conversation with you, you need to immediately change and you need to immediately come around.

22:03

You need to immediately see it as I do, because clearly this is God's word and this is God's truth and this is how

22:08

God would have us live. If we have that posture, we will be impossible to live with and we will do much more harm than good in the local church.

22:18

What we need to be able to do is to engage people with gentleness and humility and respect, assuming well, and play that long game to where it's,

22:28

I don't assume that you're going to come around or see this the way I do right now. I assume this is the first of any number of conversations we might have about this topic and I want you to feel safe to have them with me.

22:38

I want you to feel heard. I want us to be able to engage together and sharpen each other. I mean, there are things I trust that I need to learn from you.

22:46

Instead of this kind of like sharpshooting posture that we all so often have, where it's like,

22:51

I see that, that's not good, or you don't understand this doctrine and that's bad, and so we need to go after that right now and it needs to be fixed tomorrow.

22:58

And what we end up doing is just wrecking a lot of stuff and tearing a bunch of stuff up relationally in the church.

23:04

Meaning well, yeah, but we've gone about it so poorly, all in the name of being earnest or having a sense of urgency because this stuff really matters.

23:14

It's like, do not ever let your sense of urgency rob you of the ability to be patient and gentle and play the long game with people.

23:21

It's very essential. It matters if you're a pastor, but it matters if you're a church member and how you're going to live life with the other people that you see on a regular basis, because you're going to crash up against things in their lives or in their theological framework that you don't agree with and that you might be pretty convinced

23:37

God's word says otherwise. Okay, engage, but do it thoughtfully and well.

23:44

I mean, Romans 15 .1, we who are strong have an obligation to bear with the failings of the weak and not to please ourselves.

23:51

An obligation. Yeah, I mean, that's huge. Justin, there's a side of this too. I want to bring this up now.

23:56

We were talking about this beforehand. Titus chapter three. Paul says this in verse 10, except for that is not verse 10.

24:06

Here we go. Verse 10, there we go. As for a person who stirs up division, talking about the church, okay?

24:13

So we're going back to the church here. As for a person who stirs up division after warning him once and then twice have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is wrapped, sorry, warped and sinful, he is self -condemned.

24:26

So there is a moment within the church where wisdom does say, this person doesn't need any more patience or kindness.

24:35

Their intentions are sinful and therefore we should deal with it in that matter.

24:43

So there's a difference between somebody who has a lot of questions or disagrees with versus someone who's literally trying to stir up division within the church.

24:51

He is causing problems in the church. That's different. Justin Perdue And that person, verse nine right before it, avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.

25:04

And then he writes the words that you wrote as for a person who stirs up division in this regard.

25:11

So it's not just the person that comes in thinking, I'm intentionally trying to divide the church, but it's the person that is so, so zealous about things that are tertiary.

25:24

They're not critical and they're going to sharpshoot everyone over all these issues of conscience or over all of these particular prescriptions here or here.

25:35

And we're going to just unsettle people over that. And that's where, of course, for such an individual, if that's beginning to happen, hopefully the members of the church and the elders ultimately are going to go to such an individual and say, hey, you can't be like this.

25:49

You can't live like this. This isn't going to work long term. But there will come a point if a person remains stubborn in that posture, that what

25:58

Paul writes to Titus is critical. That we need to have that thing to do. Jon Moffitt He says once, then twice, after that second warning.

26:05

All right. Justin Perdue So it's like, yeah, there comes a point where we need to be done with people that are stirring up division and are bludgeoning the saints because this is no good for the life of the body of Christ.

26:16

Jon Moffitt And I say this because at times abusive people can abuse other people. And so we as elders and we as believers need to be aware of the difference between someone who is being abusive and someone who's confused and trying, you know, the weak, a difference between Romans 15 and Titus 3.

26:33

And I mean, sometimes the weak person is the one who has the really, really strong conscience, you know, who is really, really concerned about every jot and tittle.

26:42

And man, we need to be faithful. You know, a lot of times those people are actually quite weak. Though they don't come across that way because their personality is so over the top and strong.

26:53

And yeah, a lot of wisdom is required in navigating these things. I guess a comment,

26:59

Jon, this is maybe pivoting more towards, it's a slight change of direction and I think it's OK. This certainly happens for us related to this ministry.

27:09

It happens for us as pastors. It's going to happen, though, for the listener and for the members of our churches out there where we are going to be misunderstood and we're going to be maligned even for the things that we say and the things that we believe.

27:23

And there will be people who say things to us that are sharp, that are cutting, and that are frankly very, even personally hurtful sometimes.

27:33

And I think what you have to do, depending on your station in life, is understand that that's going to happen.

27:38

And you take those things to the Lord. And Jesus says, I see that and I know that.

27:44

He told us this would happen. And all that matters is that He sees and He knows. We don't then need to immediately jump to vindicate ourselves and justify ourselves or even defend our own reputation.

27:58

We trust that the Lord has us. We clear up misunderstandings where we can. But there has to be a willingness at various levels, whether you're a leader in the church or not, there has to be a willingness to be misunderstood sometimes.

28:11

And you just take that in stride, trusting the Lord. And you rest in the fact that this is going to be okay in a week or a month or a year or a decade.

28:22

It's going to be okay. And I think we struggle with that, though, because obviously none of us like to be hurt.

28:29

None of us like to be misunderstood. It can be really difficult. And our instinct is everything but, well, let me just kind of, in grace and patience, trusting the

28:37

Lord, just press on here. It's like, no, I need to do something. I need to take this by the horns and handle it. And that is just, generally speaking, not helpful.

28:45

Jon Moffitt No, and a lot of times people want their pound of flesh. They want their moment of fame. I did something

28:50

I normally don't do. I had someone kind of attack Theo Kass for being antinomian the other day. It was a pastor who graduated from the same seminary

28:56

I did. And so I just tweeted him. I said, hey, man, give me your phone number. He'd be more than happy to talk to you on the phone and clear this up, you know. And obviously

29:02

I never had that conversation. Justin Perdue Well, that's not a terrible way to do it either. To be like, hey, bro, let's talk. Jon Moffitt Exactly. But what

29:09

I have learned is that time sometimes is the most powerful way of responding.

29:17

Because if you are consistent and you're showing the same truth over and over again, there comes a moment where people go,

29:24

I hear what you're saying about Jon and Justin, but I don't see that over the course of time, you know, over everything that they're saying.

29:33

And overall, it doesn't make any sense that you would hold that position about them. And that's to me, that's where I think that when

29:43

Paul talks about the office of an elder, that one of the qualities of that is a time frame, like over the course of this man's life, it's observable that he knows how to conduct himself.

29:56

And that becomes the loudest voice versus what one person's accusation might be.

30:01

And that has helped me to calm down at times when people have said, you know, Justin, we have had videos and articles and there's been all kinds of podcasts and things that people have said against us and completely misrepresented us.

30:13

I mean, not even close to being the truth. And I look at that and at times people have asked us, are you going to respond?

30:18

Are you going to respond? And in my mind, I'm like, what we already have, like we've already stated what we believe.

30:25

And if they're going to misrepresent us, that's between them and the Lord. I don't need to be the conscience for them. Justin Perdue Agree. And I think so often, this is not just applicable to theocasts.

30:34

I think so often the best strategy is just to maybe to never respond directly, just not to, or at a minimum, to be very slow in responding, right?

30:45

It's a better strategy. Last comment from me, and this is maybe a punchy -ish one and that's fine.

30:51

This is more of a, maybe an exhortation, admonishment or a caution to those out there, those of us who have really strong personalities.

31:00

We tend to communicate in very strong, hyperbolic ways. Right? A lot of us are like this.

31:07

I mean, we're emotional. We feel it. We care that this matters. And our communication style is just intense.

31:14

For those of us who are out there, be mindful of this.

31:20

Be mindful of how you talk. If you're on social media, be wise about how you engage in those platforms because it is not a place for nuance and thoughtfulness, generally speaking.

31:33

And so a lot of times, I want to paint this picture. I can't tell you how many times I've heard this. I know you have too in the circles that you've come from.

31:41

A lot of times, I'm saying guys because oftentimes it's dudes that are doing this, but of course our sisters in Christ could do it as well.

31:48

A lot of times, guys, they wear like a badge of honor. The fact that, man, everybody's got a problem with me.

31:58

Everybody's got a problem with me and the things that I say. You know, and they wear it around. Like I say, it is a badge of honor.

32:04

They wear it with pride because from their perspective, it's like, well, they just hate the truth.

32:10

I'm speaking the truth and they hate the truth and I'm happy to take the darts for Jesus. That's the posture.

32:18

And then sometimes I'm looking at it and I'm like, you know, bro, you might just be a jerk. Like you might be just an intolerable jerk, arrogant, condescending, right?

32:31

And you're trying to provoke. You know, that might be why everybody's got an issue with you.

32:38

It might not be that you're being shot at for saying the true thing, but it's that you are just mean and jerkish in the way that you communicate it.

32:50

And so I'm not pointing my finger at anybody in particular, even in my own mind as I'm thinking about this.

32:55

I got nobody in mind, but this happens. I've seen it countless times. And so don't assume that if people are constantly responding poorly to you, that it's only because you're speaking the truth and they hate it.

33:07

It's like, hey, maybe if this has happened, you know, 991 times, you are the one common denominator in this equation.

33:15

You know, perhaps it's your posture and your demeanor and your delivery. Maybe people feel attacked by you.

33:22

Maybe people feel like you are sharpshooting them and it's difficult in spite of their good intentions for them to respond well to what you're saying or to even hear you.

33:33

And so if you care about influencing other people and if you care to win people over to sound doctrine and thoughtful Christian living, do it with patience and gentleness and warmth.

33:44

Be winsome in how you go about doing it, and the Lord will use it. And that does not mean that we're never direct.

33:51

It does not mean that we don't ever say the strong, hard thing, but we got to have more than one gear in our gearbox.

33:57

We got to have more than one tool. You know, as the saying goes, if every, if the only tool you got is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail and you can't go around just bludgeoning people to death and then blaming it on them because they don't respond well to you in the way that you communicate.

34:12

So yeah, as the joke goes, if you meet a jerk at 9 a .m. and you meet a jerk at noon, and you meet a jerk at five, say it to him,

34:20

John. Most likely you're the jerk. That's what I mean. You're the common denominator. Conversations never go well and you're always misunderstood.

34:27

Maybe it's you. Justin Perdue Yeah, I do. I do find it interesting. So we love to emphasize those who want to be harsh, love to emphasize the moments of Jesus' ministry where he was harsh.

34:39

There are points and times where Jesus is pointed and rightfully so, because he's dealing with people who are stirring up strife.

34:45

Justin Perdue Or who are trusting in their own righteousness. Justin Perdue Right. Justin Perdue Anyway. Justin Perdue Yeah. Justin Perdue But to the sinner, and I'm talking to the ones of the outcast of the culture, the ones that we like to, you know, point at self -righteously, though Jesus has a very different disposition towards them.

35:00

Justin Perdue He just says that I am gentle and lowly, right? And then he says, around me, your soul will find rest, right?

35:09

If we are to be presenting Christ to people, that means we hold his disposition, that we are gentle and lowly towards sinners.

35:16

And that through us, as we administer the gospel to them, their soul should find rest, right? That should be the general disposition.

35:23

And even going back to when James says, if you lack wisdom, ask God, and he will give it to you liberally, and then describes wisdom as being gentle, meek, humble, open to reason, right?

35:33

Seeking mercy. And so all of those dispositions,

35:38

I think, are very important for us, is that as we look to the gospel, the gospel should create a quiet sense of gentleness within us, because we understand.

35:48

I mean, Justin, once you truly believe it is the divine power of God through his knowledge that changes the heart, not our passion and persuasiveness, then you can sit back and relax and go, at some point,

36:03

God's word will rest inside their heart, and I will be the mechanism to do that. But if I am contentious and I'm causing problems,

36:12

I'll go back to what I said in our last podcast, we can end it here, in that when

36:18

Peter, when he's writing to them, this church is being persecuted, and he says, be ready to give every man the hope that lies within you, right?

36:27

And the reason was that they were receiving immense amount of persecution, and the people persecuting them, what was happening is they were stopping and going, why are you not giving up?

36:35

Like, why don't you just give in? And they were offering hope and response. And that is the, so if you're under attack or people are coming after you, we don't need to revile back, because eventually, when someone finally says, okay,

36:48

I've been attacking you this entire time, why aren't you reviling back? It's like, well, because I have a hope that's far beyond this conversation and you liking me, that's why.

36:57

So I will say this as a, one, scripture is true. Two, Justin and I's experience has been,

37:04

I think people want to hear what we have to say because of the way in which we say it, and that's important.

37:10

We do not shy away from sin. We do not shy away from the truth. But if you can learn what

37:16

Christ says, speak the truth in love, more people are going to be interested in what you have to say. And that's what the point of this podcast was today.

37:23

We want your family members to listen to you. We want the community around you to listen to you. Remember that Jesus says that the truth is received when given with love.

37:34

The two go together. And if you're going to spend capital on anything, spend it, burn it down on Christ and his sufficiency.

37:42

Start there. My goodness, don't start anywhere else. Justin Perdue Amen. Justin Perdue Yeah. Justin Perdue All right.

37:48

Well, thank you guys for listening and happy new year. Please come see us in San Diego in just a couple of weeks.

37:56

You can register online. Please register. Limited seats available. Come hear Chris Gordon, myself and Justin as we lecture on law, gospel, and covenant theology and eschatology and have panels.

38:06

It's going to be wonderful. Four sessions the entire day. Go to theocast .org to learn more.

38:12

See you next week. I think you were supposed to close it down, but I think I was. Bye. Justin Perdue It's okay. It's a division of labor around here.

38:19

That's right. See you soon. Hey, everyone. Before you go, Justin and I first wanted to say thank you. And if this has been encouraging to you in any way, please feel free to share it.

38:27

But we also need your support. And it's when you give that it really helps us financially reach more people.

38:33

So the next time you consider giving to a ministry, we hope that you would pray about Theocast and partner with us as we share the gospel around the world.